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Austin Tatious
03-07-2012, 03:29 PM
Post combine--what are you guys thinking about their relative values? Questions:

1. Is either worth the 8th pick?

2. On Ingram, is anyone concerned about his lack of height?

3. On Ingram, why didn't he start until his senior year? Is that a concern too?

4. How did Ingram run and do in other drills at the combine?

5. On Upshaw, also a lack of height.

6. On Upshaw, he seemed to lack burst at the combine?

7. Do you see them both as hybrid OLB's/DEs?

8. Where do you guys project them in the draft?

9. Ireland seems obsessed with height/weight measurables. I am not sure he will be drawn to either.

Zounds
03-07-2012, 04:17 PM
9. Ireland seems obsessed with height/weight measurables. I am not sure he will be drawn to either.

You are right about this. I dont think he will give either player a fair shot in the first round based on this.

j-off-her-doll
03-07-2012, 04:19 PM
If we're going to a 4-3 base, which seems to be the case, I don't see either of them as working opposite Wake. I like both, but I don't see them as viable options for us anymore.

If we're going D, I think our prospects have been narrowed to Kuechly and Coples - unless Claiborne somehow falls, or unless we're really high on Nick Perry.

Austin Tatious
03-07-2012, 04:26 PM
Good to see you Offerdahl. Haven't seen you in awhile.

56 was one of my favorite players ever, so I love your handle.

j-off-her-doll
03-07-2012, 04:48 PM
Good to see you Offerdahl. Haven't seen you in awhile.

56 was one of my favorite players ever, so I love your handle.

Hey thanks. My activity has been limited by a strange schedule and a new laptop that at times doesn't like to connect to my home internet.

foozool13
03-07-2012, 05:22 PM
Between the two I like Ingram. I would like to trade down a bit and grab Nick Perry though.

Austin Tatious
03-07-2012, 07:16 PM
Nick Perry is a guy I really want to study. He is intriguing because he may have the measurables that Ireland covets.

Other than Pat White, I don't remember too many picks that haven't met Ireland's prototypes. In fact, after Patti blew up in his face, the next year Parcells put a sign in their draft war room that was a mantra along the lines of "we will draft productive football players with good size blah blah blah." A reminder not to get sucked into the Pat White's of the world.

I couldn't find Upshaw, Perry, and Ingram's 40 times and other combine results. Anyone have them?

Hayden Fox
03-07-2012, 07:26 PM
Ingram is much better than Upshaw. I am not a fan Nick Saban produced players. They are never as good as they are in college. I always seem to see Upshaw beating a TE for a tackle or sack and never head up on a OT.

I am an Ingram guy. I could be turned on to Perry, but Ingram's upside is awesome.

utahphinsfan
03-07-2012, 07:55 PM
The combine is a glorified tryout/practice and some people actual do better during legitimate games. Value is relative and subjective.

I wouldn't worry about Ingram's lack of starting time. The SEC is deep.

Who has heard of Brockers until recently? Further, Dwayne 'the rock' Johnson was ahead of Russell Maryland on UM's depth chart back in the day.


9. Ireland seems obsessed with height/weight measurables. I am not sure he will be drawn to either.

My Dad coached Football and always said, "its the fight in the dog not the size of the dog that matters."

MiamiMuss
03-07-2012, 07:55 PM
Last night I got to watch about 1/2 hr of both of these guys on tape and im a big Upshaw fan.I also got to watch about 15-20 mins of film on Coples aswell...Theres not a DE/OLB thats worth the 8th pick and to be honest these guys are not worth a top 20 pick.Thats my opinion.

DKphin
03-07-2012, 07:57 PM
Here is Ingram vs Clemson and Upshaw vs Miss. St.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aJ6seARCh3Y


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qUyBLX3F7qs

TedSlimmJr
03-07-2012, 09:19 PM
Post combine--what are you guys thinking about their relative values? Questions:

1. Is either worth the 8th pick?

2. On Ingram, is anyone concerned about his lack of height?

3. On Ingram, why didn't he start until his senior year? Is that a concern too?

4. How did Ingram run and do in other drills at the combine?

5. On Upshaw, also a lack of height.

6. On Upshaw, he seemed to lack burst at the combine?

7. Do you see them both as hybrid OLB's/DEs?

8. Where do you guys project them in the draft?

9. Ireland seems obsessed with height/weight measurables. I am not sure he will be drawn to either.




1. They are if you're a coach that knows how to use them and have a plan. You have to be creative the way Kirby Smart, Nick Saban, and Ellis Johnson were with these guys. Ideally, their best "value" is in the the 12-18 range. However, a coach with a plan can absolutely get what they want to get out of 'em with a top 10 pick.

2. Not me. My concern is his short arms. Which goes back to the "plan" and "creativity" part. It's unwise to think you can just line Ingram up for 70+ snaps at DE game in and game out in the NFL and expect to get a pro-bowler in return. Offensive tackles tend to struggle with shorter pass rushers as long as they're talented. They have a built-in leverage advantage.

3. Football in the SEC begins and ends with the defensive lines. The talent and depth of SEC defensive lines is one of the main things that seperates it from the rest of the conferences. Although Ingram wasn't considered a full time "starter" as a junior.... he still led the team in sacks with 9.

4. Ingram did well in all the drills and performed up to his potential. He's one of the best athletes in this draft. All you have to do is watch the 68 yard fake punt he ran for a TD against Georgia to completely understand the magnitude of this kid's athletic ability. He looked like a Heisman Trophy running back on that play with the ball in his hands.


It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt1CDLouWYY




5. Again, as long as your feet touch the ground.... you can play this game.

6. Upshaw didn't do as well as some expected in the combine drills. Ask Cam Newton if Upshaw has any burst....

7. Yes. a.) Have A Plan b.) Be Creative

8. I think they'll both be gone in the top 20.

9. That's his M.O.

TedSlimmJr
03-07-2012, 09:56 PM
I couldn't find Upshaw, Perry, and Ingram's 40 times and other combine results. Anyone have them?




Melvin Ingram:

Height: 6'1 1/2"
Weight: 264
Arm Length: 31 1/2"
Hand: 9 5/8"
40 time: 4.79
Bench: 28 reps
Vertical: 34.5"
Broad: 9' 1"
3-Cone: 6.83 (best of the DE's. Only Bruce Irvin was better... he's a 245 pound linebacker with the COD skills of Von Miller)
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.18 (Only Bruce Irvin [4.03] and Jake Bequette [4.07] were better)





Nick Perry:

Height: 6'2 3/4"
Weight: 271
Arm Length: 33"
Hand: 9 1/2"
40 time: 4.64
Bench: 35 reps
Vertical: 38.5"
Broad: 10' 4"
3-Cone: 7.25
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.66





Courtney Upshaw:

Height: 6'1 1/2"
Weight: 272
Arm Length: 32"
Hand: 9"
Bench: 22 reps

Upshaw didn't participate in any other events.

MiamiMuss
03-07-2012, 10:10 PM
Melvin Ingram:

Height: 6'1 1/2"
Weight: 264
Arm Length: 31 1/2"
Hand: 9 5/8"
40 time: 4.79
Bench: 28 reps
Vertical: 34.5"
Broad: 9' 1"
3-Cone: 6.83 (best of the DE's. Only Bruce Irvin was better... he's a 245 pound linebacker with the COD skills of Von Miller)
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.18 (Only Bruce Irvin [4.03] and Jake Bequette [4.07] were better)





Nick Perry:

Height: 6'2 3/4"
Weight: 271
Arm Length: 33"
Hand: 9 1/2"
40 time: 4.64
Bench: 35 reps
Vertical: 38.5"
Broad: 10' 4"
3-Cone: 7.25
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.66





Courtney Upshaw:

Height: 6'1 1/2"
Weight: 272
Arm Length: 32"
Hand: 9"
Bench: 22 reps

Upshaw didn't participate in any other events.



What does COD man? like cash on delivery?

I surely hope you are not comparing Ingram as a close player comparison to Von.

uscalum
03-07-2012, 11:46 PM
Change of direction and he's saying Irvin has the COD skills of Von Miller, not Ingram.

Austin Tatious
03-08-2012, 01:44 AM
Great stuff, Slimm. Many thanks. That really helps me out alot. Thanks for taking the time.

Fin Thirteen
03-08-2012, 06:48 AM
Upshaw to me is the class act. He has more variety in his moves to get QB pressure. I'm not sure he's big enough to be suitable for our dline plans, so maybe not worth 8 (unless they're prepared to play more 3-4than originally planned to accommodate him.

The other guys are decent late first rounders / early second rounders, IMO.

hooshoops
03-08-2012, 08:58 AM
i think ingrams the more dynamic pass rusher which imo takes precedent in the 1st round over everything else when it comes to de and olbs...you don't have high end pass rush tools i think your getting overdrafted in the 1st round...ingram to me seems slightly more explosive with his get off and initial short area burst off the snap on the edge but he also looks a little more raw to me...i think upside wise ingrams the higher ceiling player...outside of the short arms which both of these guys will get engulfed by tackles if they can get their arms on them upshaw to me has pretty average get off and pass rush arsenal but he has an exceptional short area lateral quickness and short area acceleration and runs things down on the outside i'm not sure that ingram at this point will get to...

both top 20 picks but i think personally because ingrams the more dynamic pass rusher displays 3 different rush moves and all look pretty high end and can even shift inside and rush from a dt position i think he'll be the first off the board and the better actual talent value prospect...not necessarily better pro but more upside and more versatility

i still wouldn't take either though in the top 10...

305finforlife
03-08-2012, 11:34 AM
Ingram or Perry (preferred trade down).

hooshoops
03-08-2012, 03:21 PM
i don't think perrys all that dynamic a pass rusher either...looks like a 5-8 sack guy to me in the pros upside wise...but i like that lower half explosion...

MiamiMuss
03-10-2012, 11:35 AM
Change of direction and he's saying Irvin has the COD skills of Von Miller, not Ingram.

Man sometimes i feel like a nut. sometimes i dont.I am still more interested in Whitney over every DE with a 1st round projection.

bcsupratt
03-14-2012, 03:13 AM
If we're going to a 4-3 base, which seems to be the case, I don't see either of them as working opposite Wake. I like both, but I don't see them as viable options for us anymore.

If we're going D, I think our prospects have been narrowed to Kuechly and Coples - unless Claiborne somehow falls, or unless we're really high on Nick Perry.

I would love it if Claiborne fell to us. How sick would that be Vontae and Claiborne then sign Mario Williams.