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BAMAPHIN 22
03-23-2012, 02:42 PM
President Barack Obama said Friday that "every aspect" of the death of Trayvon Martin, the black teenager shot in Florida last month, must be investigated."My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin: If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Obama said. "I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and we're going to get to the bottom of what happened." http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/23/10828484-obama-if-i-had-a-son-hed-look-like-trayvon

Tetragrammaton
03-24-2012, 01:38 PM
The incident is going to make Obama very difficult to beat in the general election. If the black turnout is as high as many think because of the incident, he could carry North Carolina quite easily. Florida will also be a hotspot.

Dolphins9954
03-24-2012, 01:59 PM
And all those blacks will be suckers for believing he gives a damn.

JamesBW43
03-24-2012, 02:02 PM
The incident is going to make Obama very difficult to beat in the general election. If the black turnout is as high as many think because of the incident, he could carry North Carolina quite easily. Florida will also be a hotspot.

I don't know. I think any attempt to use this incident would be incredibly vulnerable to backlash.

Dolphins9954
03-24-2012, 02:11 PM
I don't think the "stand your ground" law had anything to do with this. The kid would have died regardless. The one at fault here is Zimmerman. He's an overzealous, trigger happy, cop wanna-be that killed a kid. While the local cops totally screwed up the investigation of this murder.

CedarPhin
03-24-2012, 03:18 PM
The incident is going to make Obama very difficult to beat in the general election. If the black turnout is as high as many think because of the incident, he could carry North Carolina quite easily. Florida will also be a hotspot.

Totally agree.

Tetragrammaton
03-24-2012, 03:37 PM
I don't know. I think any attempt to use this incident would be incredibly vulnerable to backlash.

He doesn't have to. The worry was that black voters were not going to be mobilized in 2012. Now they will be.

JamesBW43
03-24-2012, 06:16 PM
He doesn't have to. The worry was that black voters were not going to be mobilized in 2012. Now they will be.

You think this will still be in the forefront of black voters' minds come Election Day?

Locke
03-24-2012, 08:45 PM
You think this will still be in the forefront of black voters' minds come Election Day?

If not, Obama won't have to bring it up. Sharpton or Jessie Jackson most certainly will..

Tetragrammaton
03-24-2012, 10:23 PM
You think this will still be in the forefront of black voters' minds come Election Day?

I think there will be a lot of indirect pandering to the issue. Any black Florida Democrats running for Congress will likely speak of passing "Trayvon's Law" or getting rid of the "Stand Your Ground" law. Any incumbent that is still around that voted for the law will likely be targeted. I think it will be a large thing, and Sharpton moved to Sanford, right?

I am surprised how many people are talking about it, so I can't say for sure. 155K people die every day, so I don't care about some kid, but other people seem fixated on it.

Dolphins9954
03-25-2012, 09:46 AM
Some interesting facts getting ignored by the media...........



Literally thousands of articles contain at least one false statement in the first couple of lines. They usually read "George ZImmerman, a white man," or "shoot by a white man." Zimmerman is described by family as a multiracial Hispanic. His appearance is clearly that of a Latino/Mestizo individual. However, the media wants him to be white because that better fits the political narrative they are trying to artificially create. Many news articles have also claimed the neighborhood is "mostly white." This is also a lie. The neighborhood is only 49% white. It is over half non-white.

All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911 (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4). Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details (http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html) to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.

1. The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.

2. The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.

3. Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.

4. Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners' association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p2/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html). None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.



Continue reading on Examiner.com Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin - Charleston Charleston Conservative | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin?fb_comment_id=fbc_10151431978755585_31699179_10151444118300585#f14b38bd17f6234#ixzz1q8TQdHmQ) http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin?fb_comment_id=fbc_10151431978755585_31699179_10151444118300585#f14b38bd17f6234#ixzz1q8TQdHmQ


I still think Zimmerman was in the wrong to chase down this kid when told not to. And his actions are what lead to the confrontation and eventual shooting.

Dolphins9954
03-25-2012, 09:57 AM
This is classic politics 101. Exploit a tragedy for political gain. While changing the facts to fit your political agenda.

Dolphins9954
03-26-2012, 07:42 PM
Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun


George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.

The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested.

Martin's girlfriend had said in a recording obtained exclusively by ABC News that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "why are your following me, and then the man asked, what are you doing around here." She then heard a scuffle break out and the line went dead.

Phone records obtained by ABC News show that the girl, who is 16 and asked to remain anonymous, called Martin at 7:12 p.m., five minutes before police arrived, and remained on the phone with Martin until moments before he was shot.



http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html



"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Police said the shooter, identified as 25-year-old George Zimmerman, surrendered immediately. He has been questioned, but no charges have been levied and no arrest made.


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qGlFsER1


Though I still feel Zimmerman was the one the started this tragic chain of events. I don't believe that racism or the "stand your ground" law were motivating factors in the death of Trayvon. And the reason he hasn't been charged with a crime has to do with witness testimonies and evidence on the scene that back up Zimmerman's claims. Unfortunately the media and politicians will exploit this tragedy to deflect us from the real issues facing our country.

Kdawg954
03-26-2012, 08:03 PM
It is going to be difficult to convict Zimmerman, and as I say this on here... I have been cursed out by people who think I am defending the guy. I mean they teach u this in a concealed weapons course... If u have to use ur gun make sure you kill the person u shoot because then there is only one story. Exact words from my concealed weapons trainer. If Im Zimmerman and I win my case I would think about moving out of the country.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

Dolphins9954
03-26-2012, 08:08 PM
With 2 witnesses backing Zimmerman's story along with the evidence on the scene. Grass stains on the back of his shirt, bloodly nose and bleeding from the back of the head. It's going to being really hard to get a conviction of murder that's for sure. Hence the reason why he hasn't been charged with anything. Now the feds are talking about going after him for hate crimes which would be a huge mistake.

LANGER72
03-26-2012, 09:03 PM
Rushing to judgement before all the facts are out. This kid might not have been such an upstanding citizen, and the guard might have handled the whole situation poorly. If the guard is found innocent of wrong doing, how is this going to sit with the black panthers?
Why is there a black panthers organization?

Eshlemon
03-26-2012, 09:37 PM
Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun



http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html




Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qGlFsER1


Though I still feel Zimmerman was the one the started this tragic chain of events. I don't believe that racism or the "stand your ground" law were motivating factors in the death of Trayvon. And the reason he hasn't been charged with a crime has to do with witness testimonies and evidence on the scene that back up Zimmerman's claims. Unfortunately the media and politicians will exploit this tragedy to deflect us from the real issues facing our country.




Latinos in Chicago defend George Zimmerman

If you haven't already heard, Trayvon Martin was murdered by George Zimmerman, who is actually Latino despite having a Jewish last name. "George Zimmerman was defending himself," says Latinos Para La Revolucion President Paco Hernandez. "There will be a lot of information coming out that will prove this. The news media has condemned Zimmerman just because he is Latino.
http://www.examiner.com/civil-rights-in-chicago/latinos-chicago-defend-george-zimmerman

Latinos and Black splintering not be be good for Democrats and Obama...unless they can somehow spin the righteous indignation blame game from both sides on republicans.

LANGER72
03-26-2012, 09:56 PM
With 2 witnesses backing Zimmerman's story along with the evidence on the scene. Grass stains on the back of his shirt, bloodly nose and bleeding from the back of the head. It's going to being really hard to get a conviction of murder that's for sure. Hence the reason why he hasn't been charged with anything. Now the feds are talking about going after him for hate crimes which would be a huge mistake.

Obama was just waiting for something like this to happen to energize his base. He would have been better off politically if he remained on the sideline. Now Latino's have another reason not to vote for Obama.
His pandering czar screwed the pooch.

Locke
03-26-2012, 10:06 PM
Obama was just waiting for something like this to happen to energize his base. He would have been better off politically if he remained on the sideline. Now Latino's have another reason not to vote for Obama.
His pandering czar screwed the pooch.

:rolleyes2:

Yup, that makes sense. Obama was waiting for a black kid to be killed by a white dude, hope it hit the mainstream media, wait for the black panthers to become involved, hope for lots of controversy, then step in and say something. Sounds like something a President would worry about. You lost credibility as an objective opinion years ago, but stuff like this just makes it easy to remember why.

Also, he is STILL going to get most of the latino vote. Historically this has always been the case, and it isn't going to change with douchemunchers like Santorum and Gingrich whining about our immigration issue...

Dolphins9954
03-26-2012, 10:16 PM
The president shouldn't have said what he did. It only added to the bull**** surrounding this case and made it worse.

Dolphins9954
03-27-2012, 08:52 AM
Former NAACP leader accuses Sharpton and Jackson of ‘exploiting’ Trayvon Martin (http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/)


Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.”

“His family should be outraged at the fact that they’re using this child as the bait to inflame racial passions,” Rev. C.L. Bryant said in a Monday interview with The Daily Caller.
The conservative black pastor who was once the chapter president of the Garland, Texas NAACP called Jackson and Sharpton “race hustlers” and said they are “acting as though they are buzzards circling the carcass of this young boy.”

Jackson, for example, recently said Martin’s death shows how “blacks are under attack” and “targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business.”
George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain, killed Martin, a 17-year-old black man who was unarmed at the time of his death, last month. Zimmerman has claimed to have shot Martin in self-defense and has not been charged with a crime.

But Bryant, who explores the topic of black-on-black crime in his new film “Runaway Slave,” said people like Jackson and Sharpton are being misleading to suggest there is an epidemic of “white men killing black young men.”

“The epidemic is truly black on black crime,” Bryant said. “The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men.”

Bryant said he wishes civil rights leaders were protesting those problems.

“Why not be angry about the wholesale murder that goes on in the streets of Newark and Chicago?” he asked. “Why isn’t somebody angry about that six-year-old girl who was killed on her steps last weekend in a cross fire when two gang members in Chicago start shooting at each other? Why is there no outrage about that?”

Bryant said he worries that “people like Sharpton and those on the left” will make Martin’s death a campaign issue in the presidential race.

He speculated that they will “turn this evolving tragedy of this young man into fodder to say… if you don’t re-elect Obama then you will have unbridled events or circumstances like this happening in the streets to young men wearing hoodies.”

He also criticized President Obama for his “nebulous statement” responding to Martin’s death that “if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

“What does that mean?” Bryant asked. “What was the purpose in that?”



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/#ixzz1qJxzMPRm


Add the media and Obama to that list as well. A whole bunch of people jumped the gun big time in the tragic story. Egg on face.

Dolphins9954
03-27-2012, 09:16 AM
Iraqi mother 'beaten to death' in the US




Shaima Alawadi, 32 and a mother of five, died after she was taken off life support Saturday at a hospital in San Diego County, CNN said.
Ms Alawadi had been on life support since Wednesday when her teenage daughter found her unconscious in the living room of their home.


"During the initial stages of this investigation, a threatening note was discovered very close to where the victim was found," police Lieutenant Mark Coit told the network.

Ms Alawadi's daughter said the note told the family to go back to Iraq and called them "terrorists," according to CNN.


"A week ago they left a letter saying, 'This is our country, not yours, you terrorists,'" the daughter, Fatima Al Himidi told the network.

So my mom ignored that, thinking (it was) kids playing around, pranking.

"And so the day they hurt her, they left it again and it said the same thing."

The family reportedly came to the United States (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/) from Iraq (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq) in the mid-1990s.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9165952/Iraqi-mother-beaten-to-death-in-the-US.html


Now this is real racism and a real hate crime. Where's the media and political opportunists now?

LANGER72
03-27-2012, 04:38 PM
:rolleyes2:

Yup, that makes sense. Obama was waiting for a black kid to be killed by a white dude, hope it hit the mainstream media, wait for the black panthers to become involved, hope for lots of controversy, then step in and say something. Sounds like something a President would worry about. You lost credibility as an objective opinion years ago, but stuff like this just makes it easy to remember why.

Also, he is STILL going to get most of the latino vote. Historically this has always been the case, and it isn't going to change with douchemunchers like Santorum and Gingrich whining about our immigration issue...

Sorry you feel that way.

Spesh
03-27-2012, 07:27 PM
The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin (http://www.finheaven.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239) recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman (http://www.finheaven.com/US/george-zimmermans-attorney-friend-speak-trayvon-martin-incident/story?id=15999256) be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.
But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

Police brought Zimmerman into the station for questioning for a few hours on the night of the shooting, said Zimmerman's attorney, despite his request for medical attention first. Ultimately they had to accept Zimmerman's claim of self defense. He was never charged with a crime.

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.
Zimmerman, 28, claimed he shot Martin, 17, in self defense.


http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-manslaughter-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html

Dolphins9954
03-27-2012, 08:17 PM
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-manslaughter-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html

With 2 random witnesses backing Zimmerman's story it's going to be real hard to get a conviction. I was even backing the manslaughter charges at one point until I read the 2 witness testimonies and the evidence on the ground.

Fin_Frenzy_84
03-27-2012, 08:36 PM
I don't know much about the story but I heard Martin was a trouble maker and obviously that's no reason to get killed but depending on who picked the fight determines who is at fault. Obviously Martin could of killed zimmerman from the sounds of it and that's why he shot. The only thing they will need to find out is what provoked Martin to start beating up zimmerman.

Locke
03-27-2012, 08:43 PM
Sorry you feel that way.

Don't be, I'm only stating facts...

Spesh
03-27-2012, 09:18 PM
With 2 random witnesses backing Zimmerman's story it's going to be real hard to get a conviction. I was even backing the manslaughter charges at one point until I read the 2 witness testimonies and the evidence on the ground.

No doubt. Just pointing out that even the police wanted him nailed to the wall, just wouldnt be able to pull it off. Zimmerman got lucky and would have been even luckier if not for the fallout.

Dolphins9954
03-27-2012, 09:24 PM
No doubt. Just pointing out that even the police wanted him nailed to the wall, just wouldnt be able to pull it off. Zimmerman got lucky and would have been even luckier if not for the fallout.

Agree 100%. I don't like Zimmerman at all and think he's the reason things happened in the first place.

LANGER72
03-28-2012, 09:50 AM
Zimmerman may get away with murder(or manslaughter) but he will have to carry that for the rest of his life. The witnesses collaborate his version of the story. It looks like he is going to get away with it.

Dolphins9954
03-28-2012, 09:55 AM
Zimmerman may get away with murder(or manslaughter) but he will have to carry that for the rest of his life. The witnesses collaborate his version of the story. It looks like he is going to get away with it.

If it wasn't for those 2 witnesses he would be in jail as we speak. One thing is for sure.... the Sanford police aren't racists. And they actually did their job. They just didn't have enough evidence to charge or convict him.

LANGER72
03-28-2012, 11:20 AM
If it wasn't for those 2 witnesses he would be in jail as we speak. One thing is for sure.... the Sanford police aren't racists. And they actually did their job. They just didn't have enough evidence to charge or convict him.

Having two witnesses is huge. The guy is definitely the reason the teen is dead because it was his gun(which he wasn't supposed to have while on duty from what I have read), but the teen likely played a big part in his own death by attacking Zimmerman.

The Sanford police did an excellent job of keeping a lid on the story until all the facts were checked. Very professional IMHO.

The laws here in Florida are fine. I would hate to see anything changed (laws) because of this incident.

Dolphins9954
03-28-2012, 12:26 PM
Having two witnesses is huge. The guy is definitely the reason the teen is dead because it was his gun(which he wasn't supposed to have while on duty from what I have read), but the teen likely played a big part in his own death by attacking Zimmerman.

The Sanford police did an excellent job of keeping a lid on the story until all the facts were checked. Very professional IMHO.

The laws here in Florida are fine. I would hate to see anything changed (laws) because of this incident.

Yeah Trayvon would have died regardless of the law. So for me it's a side show going on with the media and opportunists. I am getting a kick out of so many in the media being dead wrong on this story. But most of them won't have the decency to admit it.

PhinzN703
03-28-2012, 01:32 PM
If Zimmerman does get off, he'll need to move away and change his appearance and name if he doesn't want to get ripped to shreds.

jared81
03-28-2012, 01:36 PM
If Zimmerman does get off, he'll need to move away and change his appearance and name if he doesn't want to get ripped to shreds.

id be interested to know if zimmerman can sue some of the news organization and personalities (sharpton) for defamation of character? any law experts here? it seems like they didnt have to sling the mud at him that they did and that they could be liable for any lost ventures in his futures.

Dolphins9954
03-28-2012, 01:53 PM
xFfPUR8mGo8


Watch if you can. Probably one of the worst unobjective piece I've seen.

LANGER72
03-28-2012, 05:27 PM
id be interested to know if zimmerman can sue some of the news organization and personalities (sharpton) for defamation of character? any law experts here? it seems like they didnt have to sling the mud at him that they did and that they could be liable for any lost ventures in his futures.

Not to mention the Black Panthers. They have put a bounty on him. Under Florida law, that is a felony. It is also a felony to cross state lines and make those types of statements. The black panthers have nothing to worry about with Eric Holder.

LANGER72
03-28-2012, 07:36 PM
xFfPUR8mGo8


Watch if you can. Probably one of the worst unobjective piece I've seen.

I agree. Just a complete distortion of the facts.

Tetragrammaton
03-28-2012, 09:54 PM
Why the **** would people put an address that they think the guy is at on Twitter? I have tried so hard to ignore this case, but it is everywhere here in Florida. Humanity can be disgusting sometimes. Why invite someone to murder the man? Even if he is guilty, no one deserves to be torn apart by a lynch mob.

Spesh
03-28-2012, 10:16 PM
A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin (http://www.finheaven.com/US/trayvon-martin-family-seeks-fbi-investigation-killing/story?id=15949879)was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman (http://www.finheaven.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239), the neighborhood watch captain who says he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.

The surveillance video (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475), which was obtained exclusively by ABC News, shows Zimmerman arriving in a police cruiser. As he exits the car, his hands are cuffed behind his back. Zimmerman is frisked and then led down a series of hallways, still cuffed.


http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

Video is in the link. Its interesting. His nose appears undamaged, his shirt has no blood stains that i could see, and, having broken my own nose, in my experience its tough to get cleaned up. Those damn things can bleed like they were shot.
The back of his head seems fine as well, but its interesting that ABC news had a logo up blocking some of the best shots of the back of his head. With all the malignant reporting going on with this case it wouldnt surprise me in the least if they intentional hid any cuts to rile people up.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 12:18 AM
Why the **** would people put an address that they think the guy is at on Twitter? I have tried so hard to ignore this case, but it is everywhere here in Florida. Humanity can be disgusting sometimes. Why invite someone to murder the man? Even if he is guilty, no one deserves to be torn apart by a lynch mob.

Spike Lee apologizes for George Zimmerman address tweet


Spike Lee apologized (https://twitter.com/#!/SpikeLee/statuses/185177177652862977) on Wednesday for retweeting a tweet thought to contain Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman's address (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/spike-lee-retweet-wrong-zimmerman-address-sparks-outrage-221443866.html) that turned out to be an elderly couple's residence.

Lee wrote (https://twitter.com/#!/SpikeLee/statuses/185177177652862977):

I Deeply Apologize To The McClain Family For Retweeting Their Address. It Was A Mistake. Please Leave The McClain's In Peace. Justice In Court

Lee retweeted the erroneous information to his 240,000-plus followers last Friday. The original tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/MACCAPONE/status/183264440479793152)--posted the same day by Marcus Davonne Higgins, a 33-year-old from Los Angeles, using the Twitter handle @Maccapone--was sent to several celebrities including Lee, 50 Cent and LeBron James. Higgins urged friends on Facebook to "REACH OUT & TOUCH" Zimmerman.

The couple--David McClain, 72, and his 70-year-old wife Elaine--had been living in fear after their Sanford, Fla., address, via Lee, was widely disseminated.
Lee's tweet sparked outrage among critics who said he was encouraging vigilante justice.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/spike-lee-apologizes-george-zimmerman-address-tweet-015514123.html


What an idiot. He's going to get sued big time.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 09:15 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

Video is in the link. Its interesting. His nose appears undamaged, his shirt has no blood stains that i could see, and, having broken my own nose, in my experience its tough to get cleaned up. Those damn things can bleed like they were shot.
The back of his head seems fine as well, but its interesting that ABC news had a logo up blocking some of the best shots of the back of his head. With all the malignant reporting going on with this case it wouldnt surprise me in the least if they intentional hid any cuts to rile people up.

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/03/ZimmermanABCvideoenhancedcaption-1.jpg

You can see something on his head. At the 50 second mark the officer does take a look at it. The ABC logo definitely blocks the majority of it. Keep in mind this video was recorded after he received medical attention.

WSE
03-29-2012, 09:38 AM
Having two witnesses is huge. The guy is definitely the reason the teen is dead because it was his gun(which he wasn't supposed to have while on duty from what I have read), but the teen likely played a big part in his own death by attacking Zimmerman.

The Sanford police did an excellent job of keeping a lid on the story until all the facts were checked. Very professional IMHO.

The laws here in Florida are fine. I would hate to see anything changed (laws) because of this incident.


Police are one of the main problems here imo.

They sent out a narcotics investigator instead of a homicide investigator, and did not notify the victim's family. The family had to go in two days later and do their identification work for them. EDIT- also, police without gloves are touching Zimmerman in this very video, and if he was bloody, that would not be the case. Collecting clothing would also seem important in a homicide case where a beating allegedly took place. Not to mention, Zimmerman's father (the judge) first mentioned his son did not chase the victim, yet changed his story to the beating one after the police tapes came out where his son was chasing the victim.

One of my main problems with the case is also what the police/da have to prove. They are not the role of the jury. They charge what they can prove. Self defense is an affirmative defense, meaning Zimmerman has to prove he acted with self defense rather than the da proving he acted without self defense. Self defense is for the jury to decide and should never be used to stop an arrest.

Spesh
03-29-2012, 09:41 AM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/03/ZimmermanABCvideoenhancedcaption-1.jpg

You can see something on his head. At the 50 second mark the officer does take a look at it. The ABC logo definitely blocks the majority of it. Keep in mind this video was recorded after he received medical attention.

Good catch, saw that and figured it might be a cut, but decided on it must have been a trick of the lighting.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 09:49 AM
Good catch, saw that and figured it might be a cut, but decided on it must have been a trick of the lighting.


It is odd how ABC would release a video claiming "No Blood or Bruises" but put their logo over the area that disputes that claim.

PhinzN703
03-29-2012, 10:06 AM
id be interested to know if zimmerman can sue some of the news organization and personalities (sharpton) for defamation of character? any law experts here? it seems like they didnt have to sling the mud at him that they did and that they could be liable for any lost ventures in his futures.

Not sure. I'd want to stay out of the public eye as often as possible if I was him. I wouldn't deal with that **** b/c people are going to believe what they're going to believe.

PhinzN703
03-29-2012, 10:08 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

Video is in the link. Its interesting. His nose appears undamaged, his shirt has no blood stains that i could see, and, having broken my own nose, in my experience its tough to get cleaned up. Those damn things can bleed like they were shot.
The back of his head seems fine as well, but its interesting that ABC news had a logo up blocking some of the best shots of the back of his head. With all the malignant reporting going on with this case it wouldnt surprise me in the least if they intentional hid any cuts to rile people up.

It could prove Zimmerman is a lying douche but why lie about getting your nose broken and having cuts on your head if it never happened? People have eyes you know and will easily be able to tell if your injuries are real or not.

PhinzN703
03-29-2012, 10:08 AM
Why the **** would people put an address that they think the guy is at on Twitter? I have tried so hard to ignore this case, but it is everywhere here in Florida. Humanity can be disgusting sometimes. Why invite someone to murder the man? Even if he is guilty, no one deserves to be torn apart by a lynch mob.

I heard Spike Lee was that person who publicized the address

WSE
03-29-2012, 10:09 AM
It could prove Zimmerman is a lying douche but why lie about getting your nose broken and having cuts on your head if it never happened? People have eyes you know and will easily be able to tell if your injuries are real or not.

why were his clothes not changed? Why are police handling him without gloves if he, as reported, was bleeding?

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 10:16 AM
why were his clothes not changed? Why are police handling him without gloves if he, as reported, was bleeding?

It was after he received medical attention. The still shots show some kind of wound to the back of the head. We also don't know if police took his clothes for evidence.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 10:18 AM
I heard Spike Lee was that person who publicized the address

All that "Do the right thing" money is going bye bye.

WSE
03-29-2012, 10:21 AM
It was after he received medical attention. The still shots show some kind of wound to the back of the head.

Understood- it could be a cut from an alleged altercation, though if his head was being pounded on the pavement I expect more than a cut. However, in a homicide where an alleged fight was involved, collecting clothing as evidence is basic procedure. Not to mention its basic procedure not to touch any form of evidence with bare hands, or anything with blood on it bare handed.

My point with these comments is police messed up the investigation from the very beginning. They had their conclusion, and went through the motions with an inexperienced narcotics investigator. When the tapes came out, the nature of this case changed of course with the dispather telling him not to chase, but he chased anyway, stated his reasons for chasing (profiling), stated displeasure in how they always get away, and likely muttered a racist term though the audio is not 100% definitely clear (it sure sounds like the word c**n).

Police did not follow basic investigative procedure for a homicide investigation.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 10:34 AM
Understood- it could be a cut from an alleged altercation, though if his head was being pounded on the pavement I expect more than a cut. However, in a homicide where an alleged fight was involved, collecting clothing as evidence is basic procedure. Not to mention its basic procedure not to touch any form of evidence with bare hands, or anything with blood on it bare handed.

My point with these comments is police messed up the investigation from the very beginning. They had their conclusion, and went through the motions with an inexperienced narcotics investigator. When the tapes came out, the nature of this case changed of course with the dispather telling him not to chase, but he chased anyway, stated his reasons for chasing (profiling), stated displeasure in how they always get away, and likely muttered a racist term though the audio is not 100% definitely clear (it sure sounds like the word c**n).

Police did not follow basic investigative procedure for a homicide investigation.


Likely muttered a racist term??? All experts agree that the tape is totally inconclusive. I've heard the tape a dozen times and what I got out of it was him saying "F'in COLD". With the weather at that time it makes sense. Regardless of how you feel about this case those 2 witnesses backing Zimmerman is the reason for everything. The police wanted to charge him but in the end couldn't based on the evidence. It's a tough case with a lot of emotions and exploitation.

WSE
03-29-2012, 10:38 AM
Likely muttered a racist term??? All experts agree that the tape is totally inconclusive. I've heard the tape a dozen times and what I got out of it was him saying "F'in COLD". With the weather at that time it makes sense. Regardless of how you feel about this case those 2 witnesses backing Zimmerman is the reason for everything. The police wanted to charge him but in the end couldn't based on the evidence. It's a tough case with a lot of emotions and exploitation.

Self defense matters nothing with charging an individual- its an affirmative defense and up to Zimmerman to prove in court if he wants to use that defense.

If police wanted to charge him, he would be charged. With the witnesses, some back him, some back the victim. That's actually bad for Zimmerman's defense since he is the one who has to prove the affirmative defense in court (though he doesn't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt like the prosecution has to prove their elements)

edit- I should add just to be clear that probable cause is needed in a case like this where self defense is alleged, though probable cause is comparably very easy to get and is nothing like at court where things must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Just a much lower standard for probable cause.

WSE
03-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Likely muttered a racist term??? All experts agree that the tape is totally inconclusive. I've heard the tape a dozen times and what I got out of it was him saying "F'in COLD". With the weather at that time it makes sense. Regardless of how you feel about this case those 2 witnesses backing Zimmerman is the reason for everything. The police wanted to charge him but in the end couldn't based on the evidence. It's a tough case with a lot of emotions and exploitation.

Also, my point with the tape was just to say the nature of the case changed, ie it became a public fiasco and the shoddy police work could not all be fixed at that point

also, it may be cold, but "They always get away, F'n c**ns" makes a lot more sense in the situation then "they always get away, f'n cold" unless Zimmerman was already chasing the victim when he was talking to the dispatcher, which is possible. Like I said, likely. I mentioned its not 100% clear, and I understand that

Spesh
03-29-2012, 11:32 AM
It is odd how ABC would release a video claiming "No Blood or Bruises" but put their logo over the area that disputes that claim.

As i said before: not surprised in the least. Im with you on how disgusting the reporting on this has gotten.

Everyone seems to accept that Zimmerman is guilty(the extent of which, and punishment, seems to be what people are disagreeing on). Why try and inflame people for no reason? Why use cheap tricks to enrage people on someone they are already enraged about?
One of the things being reported that is frustrating me beyond belief is all this crap over Trayvon Martins suspension. Who cares. This is a case about a kid being shot to death. It shouldnt matter if he was a honor student who never jay walked or a borderline dropout.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 11:33 AM
Self defense matters nothing with charging an individual- its an affirmative defense and up to Zimmerman to prove in court if he wants to use that defense.

If police wanted to charge him, he would be charged. With the witnesses, some back him, some back the victim. That's actually bad for Zimmerman's defense since he is the one who has to prove the affirmative defense in court (though he doesn't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt like the prosecution has to prove their elements)

2 random eyewitnesses had visuals of Zimmerman on the ground yelling for help. A 13 year old kid and a guy named John. John even says Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him while Zimmerman was yelling for help. There were other witnesses that heard the cries for help but none had visual contact like the 13yr old and John did. One witness said she thought the yelling sounded like a teenager screaming. But the 2 eyewitnesses confirm that Zimmerman was screaming. So if anything he screams like a girl. The police did arrest Zimmerman and brought him in for questioning. The police report says that Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head. The video does confirm what appears to be a wound on the back of the head. The wound to the nose may turn out to be minor. Pictures would be better which I'm sure will eventually come out. The report also says Zimmerman's back was wet and he had grass stains confirming his and the 2 witness testimonies that he was on his back yelling for help. We don't know if the police took his clothes for evidence or not. I would bet that they did and also took pictures of his clothing as well. Which will come out too.

The police wanted to charge him but couldn't due to these facts. If anything the system worked. Unfortunately it worked for a douchebag that should have stayed in his car and let the police handle this. Now the State Attorney could still press charges if new evidence comes to light. Or the Feds could file Hate Crime charges which would be a big mistake considering the evidence. But in the end the State was right not to charge him based on the witness testimony and evidence on the ground. According to the 5th amendment we don't throw people in jail because we think they're guilty. We have to have the evidence to back it up. And unfortunately the police don't have it. But nowadays the bill of rights doesn't mean anything anymore.

Spesh
03-29-2012, 11:36 AM
It could prove Zimmerman is a lying douche but why lie about getting your nose broken and having cuts on your head if it never happened? People have eyes you know and will easily be able to tell if your injuries are real or not.

Only reason to lie about it is gain some semblance of public sympathy. His lawyer continues to play up the fact that he was injured and acting in self defense. And, lets face it, this is about public opinion at this point, not due process.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 11:37 AM
Also, my point with the tape was just to say the nature of the case changed, ie it became a public fiasco and the shoddy police work could not all be fixed at that point

also, it may be cold, but "They always get away, F'n c**ns" makes a lot more sense in the situation then "they always get away, f'n cold" unless Zimmerman was already chasing the victim when he was talking to the dispatcher, which is possible. Like I said, likely. I mentioned its not 100% clear, and I understand that

It may not even be allowed in court. It's one of those things that can be interpreted many different ways.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 11:43 AM
As i said before: not surprised in the least. Im with you on how disgusting the reporting on this has gotten.

Everyone seems to accept that Zimmerman is guilty(the extent of which, and punishment, seems to be what people are disagreeing on). Why try and inflame people for no reason? Why use cheap tricks to enrage people on someone they are already enraged about?
One of the things being reported that is frustrating me beyond belief is all this crap over Trayvon Martins suspension. Who cares. This is a case about a kid being shot to death. It shouldnt matter if he was a honor student who never jay walked or a borderline dropout.

Totally agree. I've stayed away from any of that stuff entirely. This case has brought out the worst of us when it shouldn't have. It's a tragic story being exploited to the fullest extent.

Breed
03-29-2012, 11:52 AM
Understood- it could be a cut from an alleged altercation, though if his head was being pounded on the pavement I expect more than a cut. However, in a homicide where an alleged fight was involved, collecting clothing as evidence is basic procedure. Not to mention its basic procedure not to touch any form of evidence with bare hands, or anything with blood on it bare handed.

My point with these comments is police messed up the investigation from the very beginning. They had their conclusion, and went through the motions with an inexperienced narcotics investigator. When the tapes came out, the nature of this case changed of course with the dispather telling him not to chase, but he chased anyway, stated his reasons for chasing (profiling), stated displeasure in how they always get away, and likely muttered a racist term though the audio is not 100% definitely clear (it sure sounds like the word c**n).

Police did not follow basic investigative procedure for a homicide investigation.

As someone has already brought up, the laceration on the back of Zimmerman's head can be seen at the 50 second mark (even though the ABC logo purposely hides his head for most of the video). And if Martin was lying on top of Zimmerman (after having been shot at point-blank range), the blood on Zimmerman's clothing would have been visible. It's quite obvious the video we see of Zimmerman was after he'd been cleaned up and changed.

It's just amazing to me how so many people believe this media created ****-storm. 'A white man gunned down a young black kid' (even though Zimmerman is half Jewish and half Latino) . . . or "Trayvon was shot down like a dog" . . . or "I know Trayvon was murdered, because the cries for help stopped after the gun was fired." [From the supposed "eye-witness" that never actually saw anything]. 'Trayvon was a victim of racial profiling' [even though Zimmerman is half-minority himself and the gated-community Trayvon was "gunned down" in consists of a population that is 47% white and 53% minority . . . there's also the fact that Zimmerman and his wife tutored underprivileged minorities on weekends and has black members in his family] . . . 'he was shot because he was wearing a hoody' [Jesus ****ing Christ, did people even listen to Zimmerman's 911 call? What basis is there to support the claim that Trayvon was shot because he was wearing a hoody?]

This story is a product of the media. Pay close attention to the way this story was presented. Be it through the depiction of the characters involved (7-12 year old picture of Trayvon in contrast to the orange county suit Zimmerman was wearing) or the wording, what conclusion were we to come to? Even when less than half of what we know now was known, the media was throwing it out there that some white guy murdered some little black kid.

Breed
03-29-2012, 12:03 PM
Also, my point with the tape was just to say the nature of the case changed, ie it became a public fiasco and the shoddy police work could not all be fixed at that point

also, it may be cold, but "They always get away, F'n c**ns" makes a lot more sense in the situation then "they always get away, f'n cold" unless Zimmerman was already chasing the victim when he was talking to the dispatcher, which is possible. Like I said, likely. I mentioned its not 100% clear, and I understand that

The part where Zimmerman says ****ing c**ns/goons isn't clear enough to be heard to make a definitive argument as to whether or not the statement was racist. According to Zimmerman, he said goon. If it is to be believed that there had been a series of burglaries in the neighborhood, then it makes sense, from the standpoint that he wasn't calling Trayvon anything, but rather, the police department for not catching the suspects. There's also the statement Zimmerman made earlier in the call ("these people always get away") that would seem to fall in line with this argument.

Breed
03-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Also, how can anyone (Jackson/Sharpton/Trayvon's parents are making this claim) claim the voice in the background (of one of the 911 calls) yelling "heeeelppppp!" in the background is Trayvon Martin. The only way that's feasible is if it was Trayvon Martin getting his ass kicked.

WSE
03-29-2012, 12:12 PM
As someone has already brought up, the laceration on the back of Zimmerman's head can be seen at the 50 second mark (even though the ABC logo purposely hides his head for most of the video). And if Martin was lying on top of Zimmerman (after having been shot at point-blank range), the blood on Zimmerman's clothing would have been visible. It's quite obvious the video we see of Zimmerman was after he'd been cleaned up and changed.

It's just amazing to me how so many people believe this media created ****-storm. 'A white man gunned down a young black kid' (even though Zimmerman is half Jewish and half Latino) . . . or "Trayvon was shot down like a dog" . . . or "I know Trayvon was murdered, because the cries for help stopped after the gun was fired." [From the supposed "eye-witness" that never actually saw anything]. 'Trayvon was a victim of racial profiling' [even though Zimmerman is half-minority himself and the gated-community Trayvon was "gunned down" in consists of a population that is 47% white and 53% minority . . . there's also the fact that Zimmerman and his wife tutored underprivileged minorities on weekends and has black members in his family] . . . 'he was shot because he was wearing a hoody' [Jesus ****ing Christ, did people even listen to Zimmerman's 911 call? What basis is there to support the claim that Trayvon was shot because he was wearing a hoody?]

This story is a product of the media. Pay close attention to the way this story was presented. Be it through the depiction of the characters involved (7-12 year old picture of Trayvon in contrast to the orange county suit Zimmerman was wearing) or the wording.

Unless they changed him into what he was described by the witnesses as wearing (the red top), then he was not changed. Cleaned maybe, but by this point the evidence was not collected. It is not known whether it was ever collected, but if it was after being touched by police, the evidence is contaminated.

As for the media depictions, I do not disagree. I do agree with the uproar in this case, as mistakes were made. And the call did sound like profiling. The sad part in this case is if this idiot had just listened to police and not try to be some tough guy, an unarmed kid would still be alive. Whether the victim attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman approached him for no reason is one thing, and the important thing in regards to a murder charge I guess, but this situation should of never occured if not for Zimmerman

Also, with his father's story (the judge) already changing, I don't believe the accused stories in this case.

Breed
03-29-2012, 12:21 PM
Unless they changed him into what he was described by the witnesses as wearing (the red top), then he was not changed. Cleaned maybe, but by this point the evidence was not collected. It is not known whether it was ever collected, but if it was after being touched by police, the evidence is contaminated.

As for the media depictions, I do not disagree. I do agree with the uproar in this case, as mistakes were made. And the call did sound like profiling. The sad part in this case is if this idiot had just listened to police and not try to be some tough guy, an unarmed kid would still be alive. Whether the victim attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman approached him for no reason is one thing, and the important thing in regards to a murder charge I guess, but this situation should of never occured if not for Zimmerman

Also, with his father's story (the judge) already changing, I don't believe the accused stories in this case.

Whether mistakes were made or not, Zimmerman was never the person the media portrayed him to be. Hell, even now more people than not are clamoring for his arrest. The police/detectives may have ****ed up on the investigation, but that doesn't make Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter. At this point, the only evidence that points to manslaughter is heresay. I guess it could be argued that both sides are too muddled to lead to anything conclusive (I just happen to be on the side that thinks Zimmerman acted in self-defense).

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 01:15 PM
a9oNoQQbjPA

NamathDrunkLove
03-29-2012, 01:53 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

PhinzN703
03-29-2012, 01:54 PM
Only reason to lie about it is gain some semblance of public sympathy. His lawyer continues to play up the fact that he was injured and acting in self defense. And, lets face it, this is about public opinion at this point, not due process.

Out of all the opinions I've seen people give, there are definitely two sides to it. And yes, they are racial. I haven't seen one african american person side with Zimmerman (aside from his childhood friend) and I've seen a limited number of white people side with the victim.

I understand the point of lying but if one was lying about their appearance looking a certain way yet in reality they look the same as they did before, it would take 2 seconds to take notice.

NamathDrunkLove
03-29-2012, 03:04 PM
Unless they changed him into what he was described by the witnesses as wearing (the red top), then he was not changed. Cleaned maybe, but by this point the evidence was not collected. It is not known whether it was ever collected, but if it was after being touched by police, the evidence is contaminated.

As for the media depictions, I do not disagree. I do agree with the uproar in this case, as mistakes were made. And the call did sound like profiling. The sad part in this case is if this idiot had just listened to police and not try to be some tough guy, an unarmed kid would still be alive. Whether the victim attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman approached him for no reason is one thing, and the important thing in regards to a murder charge I guess, but this situation should of never occured if not for Zimmerman

Also, with his father's story (the judge) already changing, I don't believe the accused stories in this case.

Based on what? George Zimmerman: "This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around looking around." That is an excerpt. This is being flipped by the media so much. Saying that he was profiled just because he was wearing a hoody is absurd. Zimmerman was asked what he was wearing, what ethnicity, age, etc. These are basic questions that 911 asks for. Nowhere in that conversation did he say he was suspicious of him because of what he was wearing or because of Trayvon's ethnicity. Again, he said he looked like he was on drugs and looking at all the houses. I'm sorry but that does look suspicious no matter what your age, race, or gender are. Zimmerman was only doing what any other neighborhood watchman would do. He didn't recognize him, and Trayvon was acting "suspicous" (again, he said why he looked suspicious. All of which are legitimate reasons. The only time he mentioned skin color or what he was wearing was when he was asked by the dispatcher) so Zimmerman called 911.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 03:17 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/03/Unibomber_1-1.jpg


Suspicious


No matter what race you are.

Spesh
03-29-2012, 03:49 PM
Out of all the opinions I've seen people give, there are definitely two sides to it. And yes, they are racial. I haven't seen one african american person side with Zimmerman (aside from his childhood friend) and I've seen a limited number of white people side with the victim.

I understand the point of lying but if one was lying about their appearance looking a certain way yet in reality they look the same as they did before, it would take 2 seconds to take notice.

Just giving my lay opinion about why he might lie....never said it was a good strategy :lol:

Breed
03-29-2012, 05:58 PM
Based on what? George Zimmerman: "This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around looking around." That is an excerpt. This is being flipped by the media so much. Saying that he was profiled just because he was wearing a hoody is absurd. Zimmerman was asked what he was wearing, what ethnicity, age, etc. These are basic questions that 911 asks for. Nowhere in that conversation did he say he was suspicious of him because of what he was wearing or because of Trayvon's ethnicity. Again, he said he looked like he was on drugs and looking at all the houses. I'm sorry but that does look suspicious no matter what your age, race, or gender are. Zimmerman was only doing what any other neighborhood watchman would do. He didn't recognize him, and Trayvon was acting "suspicous" (again, he said why he looked suspicious. All of which are legitimate reasons. The only time he mentioned skin color or what he was wearing was when he was asked by the dispatcher) so Zimmerman called 911.

Exactly. It's not like he called it in and said, "I have a black man in a hoody in my neighborhood that looks suspicious." He was simply asked various questions and answered them nonchalantly. Anybody that took that call at face value as racial profiling either has an agenda or is a ****ing moron. 53% of the neighborhood is either Hispanic or Black, so it's not like the sight of a black man/kid (regardless of whether or not he was wearing a hoody) was shocking, as he was no doubt used to seeing black people in the neighborhood. But I guess all these people that want Zimmerman's head are right, the fact that he has at least one member of his family that is black, has numerous black friends, and has tutored various underprivileged black kids means absolutely nothing . . . with no logical evidence to back it up, this was an obvious hate crime and Zimmerman deserves to go to jail.

WSE
03-29-2012, 06:46 PM
He has called police hundreds of times, most of them on young black males. Suspicious due to walking around? Please.

Lets assume for a second that Zimmerman is telling the truth, and Martin attacked him. How do you think you would react if a man was stalking and following/chasing you. A man not in police or any official uniform?

That may be an indictment on the Neighborhood Watch and why they are not supposed to be carrying weapons on duty, but police officers have a uniform so people they chase know its them and don't assume its just a random person. If a random person was chasing me, I would act in self defense

Also, does anybody really believe the b movie like quotes Zimmerman's father is stating. In he middle of a fight, "oh you are going to die tonight". At the start of the altercation- "do you have a problem, now you do". This is not a b movie, its real life, and making up preposterous quotes like that makes their story look like a lie, notwithstanding he has changed his story already.

I could buy Martin attacking him due to the situation of being chased, but I cannot buy the quotes. Also, an essential element of self defense is reasonable force, and while Zimmerman may of been hurt in that video, it does not look like his life was in danger with the one possible cut on the back of his head. You could only take a life/use deadly force if your life is in danger, ie the quotes trying to show that.

phinfan3411
03-29-2012, 07:25 PM
He has called police hundreds of times, most of them on young black males. Suspicious due to walking around? Please.

Lets assume for a second that Zimmerman is telling the truth, and Martin attacked him. How do you think you would react if a man was stalking and following/chasing you. A man not in police or any official uniform?

That may be an indictment on the Neighborhood Watch and why they are not supposed to be carrying weapons on duty, but police officers have a uniform so people they chase know its them and don't assume its just a random person. If a random person was chasing me, I would act in self defense

Also, does anybody really believe the b movie like quotes Zimmerman's father is stating. In he middle of a fight, "oh you are going to die tonight". At the start of the altercation- "do you have a problem, now you do". This is not a b movie, its real life, and making up preposterous quotes like that makes their story look like a lie, notwithstanding he has changed his story already.

I could buy Martin attacking him due to the situation of being chased, but I cannot buy the quotes. Also, an essential element of self defense is reasonable force, and while Zimmerman may of been hurt in that video, it does not look like his life was in danger with the one possible cut on the back of his head. You could only take a life/use deadly force if your life is in danger, ie the quotes trying to show that.

At what point did he change his story?

I do not know about you, but i have been in fights, and i have been around fights, and at a certain point sometimes, one person usually has had enough, do you agree?

I can see a 17 year old getting mad at somebody following them, i can also see them confronting that person, the thing that nobody seems to want to talk about is there was a point where he was on top of him, either punching him/beating his head into the ground (per both of the eyewitness accounts), and Zimmerman was screaming for help.

Are we both in agreement that this "problem" the two of them had, no matter how it got to that point, arrived there, correct?

I will then ask, what kind of person continues on with the beating? If i ever found out my son was involved (someday, he is three currently) in something like that, where he was beating on a person who was screaming for help, i would beat the crap out of him.

I'm sorry that is very "thuggish" in my opinion, and my opinion has changed 180 degrees, because originally the Orlando newspaper reported it was Martin that was screaming.

One of my friends posted this on Facebook, and i said the same things about Zimmerman, that i am now saying about Martin.

How could this idiot shoot a kid that was screaming for help?

This is ridiculous, why have they not arrested this guy yet?

Another poster said, i was an idiot (which i was), and there is no way they wouldn't have arrested him if that were the case, we are not getting the whole story.

So, that is my opinion, how could he continue beating on a guy who was screaming for help??

Only a few ways that will turn out, and if you tell me one of them had a gun, well, that would probably be my answer.

WSE
03-29-2012, 07:35 PM
At what point did he change his story?

I do not know about you, but i have been in fights, and i have been around fights, and at a certain point sometimes, one person usually has had enough, do you agree?

I can see a 17 year old getting mad at somebody following them, i can also see them confronting that person, the thing that nobody seems to want to talk about is there was a point where he was on top of him, either punching him/beating his head into the ground (per both of the eyewitness accounts), and Zimmerman was screaming for help.

Are we both in agreement that this "problem" the two of them had, no matter how it got to that point, arrived there, correct?

I will then ask, what kind of person continues on with the beating? If i ever found out my son was involved (someday, he is three currently) in something like that, where he was beating on a person who was screaming for help, i would beat the crap out of him.

I'm sorry that is very "thuggish" in my opinion, and my opinion has changed 180 degrees, because originally the Orlando newspaper reported it was Martin that was screaming.

One of my friends posted this on Facebook, and i said the same things about Zimmerman, that i am now saying about Martin.

How could this idiot shoot a kid that was screaming for help?

This is ridiculous, why have they not arrested this guy yet?

Another poster said, i was an idiot (which i was), and there is no way they wouldn't have arrested him if that were the case, we are not getting the whole story.

So, that is my opinion, how could he continue beating on a guy who was screaming for help??

Only a few ways that will turn out, and if you tell me one of them had a gun, well, that would probably be my answer.

I see it as more than mad, but scared. This person was not in uniform, and stalking him down. That is the reason police told him not to approach, and why they are not supposed to have guns on duty. They are not cops, and the victim likely had no idea this was a neighborhood watch person, not that that means anything anyway- a neighborhood watch person is not supposed to approach. Zimmerman, who had attended police academy before, was a wannabe cop, and a kid is dead because of his stupidity.

As for the rest, thats all fact specific. Lets say Martin was scared and attacked Zimmerman. You think Zimmerman just laid there and got beat? He was probably fighting back (and had reason to at that point). So the fight could easily continue in that fashion until a gun is taken out and the fight ended.

edit- forgot to answer the first question- he originally stated that his son did not chase down the victim, now when the audio came out and its obvious Zimmerman chased the victim, now that has become he did so just to get an address to give to police.

Locke
03-29-2012, 07:48 PM
Just a few thoughts on this.

Zimmerman is an idiot and a douchebag. Why would you follow some kid around because you think he is behaving suspiciously? Idiots like this is why there are always going to be people advocating for gun control.

I'm torn on this being a racial thing. In that phone call, I'd say I'm 75% sure he called the kid a coon. If I was sure that's the word he used, I'd be 100% behind this as a race issue. However, it's not clear, and despite it sounding like coon, I'm not comfortable making a judgement without being sure. This falls back to this guy Zimmerman being an idiot. Why put yourself in a situation where this is even a question? The rest of his actions are ambiguous enough that this whole thing may rest on a single word he muttered on the phone. Gun to my head, I'd say it was a race thing, but only because it sounds a lot like he said coon.

The media spinning this the way they have is beyond disgusting. Everyone rips on Fox News, and for good reason, but how is this any different than what they do daily? Any major news network that has ever condemned Fox News for being unethical douchemunchers are now hypocrites. It's like the media in this country are completely incapable of being objective.

I don't have an opinion on the kid yet. Everything we've heard has come from two sides trying to use this situation for different purposes. I'll withhold judgment on him until we get a more objective analysis. Personally, if I were black, I'd be damn sure that I never did anything that could ever be considered suspicious. Whether people admit it or not, racism is still an issue, and I would not want to put myself in a position where I could expose myself to their narrow-minded bullsh*t. I guess I can't really hold him to that standard though, he was still a teenager, and we all know teens are going to do what they're going to do.

I don't think we know enough yet to be able to say what really happened. Despite it likely not happening for quite a few months, I'll be pretty interested in the trial. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the trial happens right around election time...

NamathDrunkLove
03-29-2012, 08:14 PM
He has called police hundreds of times, most of them on young black males. Suspicious due to walking around? Please.

Lets assume for a second that Zimmerman is telling the truth, and Martin attacked him. How do you think you would react if a man was stalking and following/chasing you. A man not in police or any official uniform?

That may be an indictment on the Neighborhood Watch and why they are not supposed to be carrying weapons on duty, but police officers have a uniform so people they chase know its them and don't assume its just a random person. If a random person was chasing me, I would act in self defense

Also, does anybody really believe the b movie like quotes Zimmerman's father is stating. In he middle of a fight, "oh you are going to die tonight". At the start of the altercation- "do you have a problem, now you do". This is not a b movie, its real life, and making up preposterous quotes like that makes their story look like a lie, notwithstanding he has changed his story already.

I could buy Martin attacking him due to the situation of being chased, but I cannot buy the quotes. Also, an essential element of self defense is reasonable force, and while Zimmerman may of been hurt in that video, it does not look like his life was in danger with the one possible cut on the back of his head. You could only take a life/use deadly force if your life is in danger, ie the quotes trying to show that.

First off, where has it been reported that he has made "hundreds of calls"? Secondly, where has it been reported that the majority of them were on African Americans? As for the reaction to being chased, it is still no reason to throw punches. The school suspensions don't help Trayvon either. It shows what his character was really like. To go along with Trayvon and his friends aggressive twitter comments it shows that he had poor character and odds are was aggressive. It gives more credibility to Zimmerman's story in the Police report.

I fully believe that it was Zimmerman yelling for help based on the 13 year old eye witness account. The 13 year old said that the man on the bottom that was yelling for help of the two fighting fit Zimmermans description. Based on the eye witness account, to that point Zimmerman was telling the truth. So Zimmerman, saying that he was punched first in the nose and then when he was on the ground Trayvon started hitting his head against the concrete sidewalk. The gash, not "cut" on the back of his head is again indicative that Zimmerman's story was accurate. He screamed for help for about a minute and a half in the other 911 call. So we know that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked for AT LEAST a minute. Now how much time had the fight been going on until the lady even called 911? He had every right to shoot him if he felt his life was in danger. If your head takes a series blow like what was indicative of the images of Zimmerman's head, you aren't going to stay alive long taking that much of a beating for very long. Or at the very least it could have caused severe brain damage if it had continued. After a minute and a half to two minutes of screaming for help and getting his head bashed and no one came he finally pulled the trigger. At what point is enough? Should Zimmerman just have laid their and took the beating and ended up dead himself or have serious brain trauma?

Obviously you have never been in a fight. But people always say, "such and such said this and I said this in reply" Those are almost never an exact quote but more or less a summary of what was said. So in regards to Trayvon asking if Zimmerman had a problem, and then saying well know you do; it was nothing more than a summary of what was said.
Even if it was an exact quote, who is to say that Trayvon didn't have anymore of a 3rd grade/ b movie vocabulary? Also, if you are referring to Robert Zimmerman's quotes, they are all second hand of the situation because he wasn't there. “Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of ‘you’re going to die now’ or ‘you’re going to die tonight." - Robert Zimmerman. http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/03/29/zimmermans-dad-trayvon-martin-told-my-son-he-was-going-to-die-now/

That could have just as easily been, 'Oh, you're gonna die now mother F*cker!'

NamathDrunkLove
03-29-2012, 08:18 PM
I see it as more than mad, but scared. This person was not in uniform, and stalking him down. That is the reason police told him not to approach, and why they are not supposed to have guns on duty. They are not cops, and the victim likely had no idea this was a neighborhood watch person, not that that means anything anyway- a neighborhood watch person is not supposed to approach. Zimmerman, who had attended police academy before, was a wannabe cop, and a kid is dead because of his stupidity.

As for the rest, thats all fact specific. Lets say Martin was scared and attacked Zimmerman. You think Zimmerman just laid there and got beat? He was probably fighting back (and had reason to at that point). So the fight could easily continue in that fashion until a gun is taken out and the fight ended.

edit- forgot to answer the first question- he originally stated that his son did not chase down the victim, now when the audio came out and its obvious Zimmerman chased the victim, now that has become he did so just to get an address to give to police.

You're right. Who wouldn't fight back, but by the police report, the eye witness account, Zimmerman screaming for help, and the gash on Zimmerman's head, it was obvious that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked.

phins_4_ever
03-29-2012, 08:43 PM
You're right. Who wouldn't fight back, but by the police report, the eye witness account, Zimmerman screaming for help, and the gash on Zimmerman's head, it was obvious that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked.

What is it with this gash and that it is an indication of getting your ass kicked? It is little wound on the back of his head (we don't even know if it is a wound).
If Zimmerman would have been beaten a minute (Zimmerman Sr) or more (some media) the guy would not walk around like in the police video. He would be battered and bruised and most likely in the hospital or medical facility.

The reason the media has a field day because no arrest has been made and no investigation has occurred. The last time I checked if someone gets shot an official investigation is launched just by default, the suspect is arrested and then either let go on bail, own recognizance or held indefinitely until the investigation is completed.

I assume there were paramedics on the scene as well. After all there was a shooting and a dead body. Why didn't get Zimmerman something for his gashing wound? Like a band aid or something. They just let him walk around like that? And with a broken nose?

I do not care of Martin was black or not. In my opinion some 'wannabe' cop ran around in a neighborhood watch program with a weapon living his dream of law enforcement.

And if we trash Martin with some school violations we should not forget that Zimmerman was arrested twice before: one for assaulting a police officer and one for domestic abuse.

Breed
03-29-2012, 08:58 PM
At what point did he change his story?

I do not know about you, but i have been in fights, and i have been around fights, and at a certain point sometimes, one person usually has had enough, do you agree?

I can see a 17 year old getting mad at somebody following them, i can also see them confronting that person, the thing that nobody seems to want to talk about is there was a point where he was on top of him, either punching him/beating his head into the ground (per both of the eyewitness accounts), and Zimmerman was screaming for help.

Are we both in agreement that this "problem" the two of them had, no matter how it got to that point, arrived there, correct?

I will then ask, what kind of person continues on with the beating? If i ever found out my son was involved (someday, he is three currently) in something like that, where he was beating on a person who was screaming for help, i would beat the crap out of him.

I'm sorry that is very "thuggish" in my opinion, and my opinion has changed 180 degrees, because originally the Orlando newspaper reported it was Martin that was screaming.

One of my friends posted this on Facebook, and i said the same things about Zimmerman, that i am now saying about Martin.

How could this idiot shoot a kid that was screaming for help?

This is ridiculous, why have they not arrested this guy yet?

Another poster said, i was an idiot (which i was), and there is no way they wouldn't have arrested him if that were the case, we are not getting the whole story.

So, that is my opinion, how could he continue beating on a guy who was screaming for help??

Only a few ways that will turn out, and if you tell me one of them had a gun, well, that would probably be my answer.

You're absolutely right. Martin kept senselessly beating Zimmerman; he was already beaten, why continue to beat an already defeated opponent? How long are most street fights? If it's nothing but all out blows, maybe a couple of minutes (if that). Zimmerman was heard screaming for at least a minute (the needless beating Zimmerman took was probably longer than a minute since something had to have caused 911 call in the first place. What caused the woman to call 911 . . . shouting between Zimmerman and Martin or Zimmerman's screams for help?). As far as I'm concerned, when Martin grabbed Zimmerman's head and smashed it like a coconut that needed cracking, his life was forfeit. Look at this pic and tell me there was no intent to seriously injure ( http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/ ) . There had to be significant force to cause that kind of laceration.

EDIT: Either Zimmerman was screaming because he was getting his ass kicked or he was in a struggle with Martin for his (Zimmerman's) gun. Either way is just cause for pulling the trigger. For anybody that has doubts, please listen to the 911 call again and tell me that one of those two things weren't happening. Please take note of the desperation in Zimmerman's cry for help.

Breed
03-29-2012, 09:11 PM
What is it with this gash and that it is an indication of getting your ass kicked? It is little wound on the back of his head (we don't even know if it is a wound).
If Zimmerman would have been beaten a minute (Zimmerman Sr) or more (some media) the guy would not walk around like in the police video. He would be battered and bruised and most likely in the hospital or medical facility.

The reason the media has a field day because no arrest has been made and no investigation has occurred. The last time I checked if someone gets shot an official investigation is launched just by default, the suspect is arrested and then either let go on bail, own recognizance or held indefinitely until the investigation is completed.

I assume there were paramedics on the scene as well. After all there was a shooting and a dead body. Why didn't get Zimmerman something for his gashing wound? Like a band aid or something. They just let him walk around like that? And with a broken nose?

I do not care of Martin was black or not. In my opinion some 'wannabe' cop ran around in a neighborhood watch program with a weapon living his dream of law enforcement.

And if we trash Martin with some school violations we should not forget that Zimmerman was arrested twice before: one for assaulting a police officer and one for domestic abuse.

We can talk forever about whether or not Zimmerman was within his right to follow Martin or if the eventual confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin was racially motivated, none of that should matter if Zimmerman was in a fight for his life. Even IF Zimmerman started the confrontation, the fight should have ended when Zimmerman was defeated. Martin used the sidewalk as a weapon (Weapon: "something . . . used to injure, defeat, or destroy") and continued to pour it on for quite a while even after Zimmerman was defeated. What the **** was Zimmerman supposed to do? Was he supposed to continue getting senselessly beat until he was either a dead or a living vegetable?

As for Zimmerman being a "wannabe cop", perhaps the purpose of neighborhood watch eludes you. The purpose of Neighborhood Watch isn't so a bunch of flunky cops can go around and play hero, it's so crime can be prevented. Zimmerman was no doubt one of several in the gated community that took shifts in hopes of keeping the neighborhood safe.

phins_4_ever
03-29-2012, 09:59 PM
We can talk forever about whether or not Zimmerman was within his right to follow Martin or if the eventual confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin was racially motivated, none of that should matter if Zimmerman was in a fight for his life. Even IF Zimmerman started the confrontation, the fight should have ended when Zimmerman was beaten. Martin used the sidewalk as a weapon (Weapon: "something . . . used to injure, defeat, or destroy") and continued to pour it on for quite a while even after Zimmerman was defeated. What the **** was Zimmerman supposed to do? Was he supposed to continue getting senselessly beat until he was either a dead or a living vegetable?

As for Zimmerman being a "wannabe cop", perhaps the purpose of neighborhood watch eludes you. The purpose of Neighborhood Watch isn't so a bunch of flunky cops can go around and play hero, it's so crime can be prevented. Zimmerman was no doubt one of several in the gated community that took shifts in hopes of reducing neighborhood crime.

The purpose of neighborhood watch did not elude me. We have one. We are supposed to be the ears and eyes, never to follow or to confront and not use nor carry any weapons of force while on duty. Obviously in your mind neighborhood watch means law enforcement. It is not.

Zimmerman acted like a wannabe cop. He carried a weapon around and he followed though the police told him on the phone not to follow.

So, from being in a fight and held down Zimmerman took now a beat down? And your source is? Zimmerman's dad and a possible 13 year old witness? Yet we disregard the phone call Martin made to his girl friend?

Sorry but visual evidence do not show Zimmerman as a beaten or beaten down man. As a matter of fact besides that maybe cut on his head he looked just fine.

And if you are so easy to make a 17 year old villain you should also recognize as Zimmerman with a violent past and his one-sided affection for law enforcement (see his 14 week course).

But it just doesn't matter which news sources you are following to form your opinion. That police video is evidence enough that there was no beat down.

Breed
03-29-2012, 09:59 PM
Another thing that gets me is the whole "justice for Trayvon" thing. The "Zimmerman is a murderer" stance has already pretty much been debunked, what about justice for Zimmerman. If it is proven that Zimmerman acted in self defense (I doubt he'll get off the hook completely, the public demands at least some blood), what good is that to Zimmerman? He's probably the most hated man in America right now and is taking a serious risk every time he takes a step outside. What does that kind of fear do to a person physically (not to mention mentally)? Assuming he isn't murdered any time soon, how many years have been taken off his life? I know he's already suffering from insomnia and post-traumatic stress as a result of this mess; what other conditions will he suffer from down the road?

phins_4_ever
03-29-2012, 10:12 PM
Another thing that gets me is the whole "justice for Trayvon" thing. The "Zimmerman is a murderer" stance has already pretty much been debunked, what about justice for Zimmerman. If it is proven that Zimmerman acted in self defense (I doubt he'll get off the hook completely, the public demands at least some blood), what good is that to Zimmerman? He's probably the most hated man in America right now and is taking a serious risk every time he takes a step outside. What does that kind of fear do to a person physically (not to mention mentally)? Assuming he isn't murdered any time soon, how many years have been taken off his life? I know he's already suffering from insomnia and post-traumatic stress as a result of this mess; what other conditions will he suffer from down the road?


Debunked????
:ponder:

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 10:24 PM
o9A-gp8mrdw

The unedited version. Definitely notice a difference from the edited news versions. It appears that he stopped chasing Trayvon and went back to his car. Also at the 2:20 mark you hear him get out of his car and start walking or running. That's when you hear him say the F'n ---- comment. To me it sound like he says cold because he just stepped out of his car and it was cold. Now that's just what I heard but all experts agree that it's inconclusive.

Breed
03-29-2012, 10:29 PM
The purpose of neighborhood watch did not elude me. We have one. We are supposed to be the ears and eyes, never to follow or to confront and not use nor carry any weapons of force while on duty. Obviously in your mind neighborhood watch means law enforcement. It is not.

How many confrontations (Neighborhood Watch related) had Zimmerman had before the one with Martin? If it turns out the one he had with Martin was the only one he's had, that would go a long way into legitimizing Zimmerman's story. No one knows conclusively who instigated the fight. Listening to the 911 call, it appears that Zimmerman was keeping his distance from Martin. Logic would dictate that Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin within his line of sight.


Zimmerman acted like a wannabe cop. He carried a weapon around and he followed though the police told him on the phone not to follow.

You base this on what exactly?


So, from being in a fight and held down Zimmerman took now a beat down? And your source is? Zimmerman's dad and a possible 13 year old witness?

Who ever said anything about Zimmerman being "held down"? As for the beat down Zimmerman took, it's in the police report, but I guess the whole thing was a fabrication . . . the cops must have bullied the witnesses<sarcasm>


Yet we disregard the phone call Martin made to his girl friend?

What exactly did she say?


Sorry but visual evidence do not show Zimmerman as a beaten or beaten down man. As a matter of fact besides that maybe cut on his head he looked just fine.

He certainly appeared fine when he was heard crying out desperately for help. And as I stated earlier, Either Zimmerman was screaming because he was getting his ass kicked or he was in a struggle with Martin for his (Zimmerman's) gun. Either way is just cause for pulling the trigger. For anybody that has doubts, please listen to the 911 call again and tell me that one of those two things weren't happening. Please take note of the desperation in Zimmerman's cry for help.

. . . and I guess the police reports about the broken nose are just made up, after all, he doesn't appear physically damaged in the ABC video (aside from the significant laceration on the back of his head). But I guess that's easy to overlook.


And if you are so easy to make a 17 year old villain you should also recognize as Zimmerman with a violent past and his one-sided affection for law enforcement (see his 14 week course).

How exactly does that pertain to the fight between Zimmerman and Martin, more specifically, the last minute or so when Zimmerman was desperately crying out for help?


But it just doesn't matter which news sources you are following to form your opinion. That police video is evidence enough that there was no beat down.

Unlike some, I don't rely on the news to form my opinion. News isn't reported, it's interpreted. I form my own opinions knowing that most of what's out there is skewed.

As for the ABC clip, I can see how a video that somehow manages to cover up Zimmerman for most of it's duration could prove the police report wrong.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 10:30 PM
The purpose of neighborhood watch did not elude me. We have one. We are supposed to be the ears and eyes, never to follow or to confront and not use nor carry any weapons of force while on duty. Obviously in your mind neighborhood watch means law enforcement. It is not.

Zimmerman acted like a wannabe cop. He carried a weapon around and he followed though the police told him on the phone not to follow.

So, from being in a fight and held down Zimmerman took now a beat down? And your source is? Zimmerman's dad and a possible 13 year old witness? Yet we disregard the phone call Martin made to his girl friend?

Sorry but visual evidence do not show Zimmerman as a beaten or beaten down man. As a matter of fact besides that maybe cut on his head he looked just fine.

And if you are so easy to make a 17 year old villain you should also recognize as Zimmerman with a violent past and his one-sided affection for law enforcement (see his 14 week course).

But it just doesn't matter which news sources you are following to form your opinion. That police video is evidence enough that there was no beat down.


iuPmu8UUbpQ

There was 2 witnesses that had visual contact and both back up Zimmerman's story. Now the extent of the injuries is debatable but pictures that will eventually come out will be the defining factor.

Breed
03-29-2012, 10:32 PM
Debunked????
:ponder:

After all the evidence that has come out since this story broke, you still contend there is more evidence that supports the theory that Zimmerman is a murderer? OK:crazy:

Edit: Even the prosecutor knows there's no chance of getting a murder charge. The best they can hope for is manslaughter.

Breed
03-29-2012, 10:38 PM
o9A-gp8mrdw

The unedited version. Definitely notice a difference from the edited news versions. It appears that he stopped chasing Trayvon and went back to his car. Also at the 2:20 mark you hear him get out of his car and start walking or running. That's when you hear him say the F'n ---- comment. To me it sound like he says cold because he just stepped out of his car and it was cold. Now that's just what I heard but all experts agree that it's inconclusive.


Why bother? After all the evidence that has been released over the past week, if they can't see how laughable the "Zimmerman is a murderer" stance is by now, they never will. That's not to say that Zimmerman's story is full proof, but it's a hell of a lot more believable than what the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton camp is spewing.

Dolphins9954
03-29-2012, 10:42 PM
Why bother? After all the evidence that has been released over the past week, if they can't see how laughable the "Zimmerman is a murderer" stance is by now, they never will. That's not to say that Zimmerman's story is conclusive, but it's a hell of a lot more believable than what the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton camp is spewing.

It's important to get out all the facts especially unedited and not manipulated.

Locke
03-29-2012, 11:21 PM
Why bother? After all the evidence that has been released over the past week, if they can't see how laughable the "Zimmerman is a murderer" stance is by now, they never will. That's not to say that Zimmerman's story is full proof, but it's a hell of a lot more believable than what the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton camp is spewing.

That doesn't mean he is innocent either. What kind of douchebag follows a kid while carrying a gun...?

phins_4_ever
03-30-2012, 12:50 AM
How many confrontations (Neighborhood Watch related) had Zimmerman had before the one with Martin? If it turns out the one he had with Martin was the only one he's had, that would go a long way into legitimizing Zimmerman's story. No one knows conclusively who instigated the fight. Listening to the 911 call, it appears that Zimmerman was keeping his distance from Martin. Logic would dictate that Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin within his line of sight.



You base this on what exactly?



Who ever said anything about Zimmerman being "held down"? As for the beat down Zimmerman took, it's in the police report, but I guess the whole thing was a fabrication . . . the cops must have bullied the witnesses<sarcasm>



What exactly did she say?



He certainly appeared fine when he was heard crying out desperately for help. And as I stated earlier, Either Zimmerman was screaming because he was getting his ass kicked or he was in a struggle with Martin for his (Zimmerman's) gun. Either way is just cause for pulling the trigger. For anybody that has doubts, please listen to the 911 call again and tell me that one of those two things weren't happening. Please take note of the desperation in Zimmerman's cry for help.

. . . and I guess the police reports about the broken nose are just made up, after all, he doesn't appear physically damaged in the ABC video (aside from the significant laceration on the back of his head). But I guess that's easy to overlook.



How exactly does that pertain to the fight between Zimmerman and Martin, more specifically, the last minute or so when Zimmerman was desperately crying out for help?



Unlike some, I don't rely on the news to form my opinion. News isn't reported, it's interpreted. I form my own opinions knowing that most of what's out there is skewed.

As for the ABC clip, I can see how a video that somehow manages to cover up Zimmerman for most of it's duration could prove the police report wrong.

Here is a raw video without logo. It is quite lengthy and you can see him clearly from the front. No sign of being a beaten man.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-martin-zimmerman-video-20120329,0,809426.story

I think the witness statement from the girl friend was that he said that he was being followed. She said to run. But I guess she is not worthy of a statement because police never took her statement.


After all the evidence that has come out since this story broke, you still contend there is more evidence that supports the theory that Zimmerman is a murderer? OK:crazy:

Edit: Even the prosecutor knows there's no chance of getting a murder charge. The best they can hope for is manslaughter.

I think the biggest evidence is: he shot Martin. Duh!

Murder? Manslaughter? These are legal terms. I never said that he can be convicted under any kind of legal terms. My argument with you is that you argue that he was in a life and death struggle because Zimmerman took a beat down from Martin and he was just defending himself. My argument is - in an ethical and moral way - that he is a killer. You have very little - if any - evidence that he acted in self defense. Basically just Zimmerman's word, a little gash on his head, a couple of witness statements who saw something and a father's word. Oh and a police report. And we know that police reports are always correct.

My evidence is: a man with a gun and a history of violence; contradicting statements between Zimmerman/father of Zimmerman and the initial police call; a dead person; a video in which he does not appear 'beaten down', a woman's statement who was on the phone with Martin and confirmed that Zimmerman was following Martin; a call to the police by Zimmerman who told the dispatcher that he can be reached by phone about his location by the responding officer rather than going to the mail boxes as suggested by the dispatcher or staying in his car (thus my conclusion that Zimmerman followed Martin).

And that opinion has been formed by tossing out all racial and emotional aspects and all that other media crap.

phins_4_ever
03-30-2012, 12:56 AM
o9A-gp8mrdw

The unedited version. Definitely notice a difference from the edited news versions. It appears that he stopped chasing Trayvon and went back to his car. Also at the 2:20 mark you hear him get out of his car and start walking or running. That's when you hear him say the F'n ---- comment. To me it sound like he says cold because he just stepped out of his car and it was cold. Now that's just what I heard but all experts agree that it's inconclusive.


You obviously also heard that after Zimmerman said 'he is running' he confirmed to the police that he is following Martin.
With that we have established that Zimmerman was following him and not the other way around. Thank you.

WSE
03-30-2012, 05:05 AM
so to all the people treating the one witness as god, here is another eyewitness that seems to say otherwise

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

ie, the witnesses are not clear in this case. With who was on top, with whose voice was yelling. Different witnesses are saying different things, but Fox and Friends on this site are focusing on the one witness and the father.

"you are going to die tonight" Please. Most pathetic bs made up story I have ever heard.

Breed
03-30-2012, 05:07 AM
That doesn't mean he is innocent either.

It depends on your definition of innocent. Aside from "harmless in effect", sure, but by all the other standards, he certainly appears to be innocent. However, using the same logic, any person who kills in self-defense isn't innocent either.
"1.
a : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child>
b : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze>
c : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a wholly innocent transaction>
2
a : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuous
b : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>
3
: lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics — Marcia Davenport>"


What kind of douchebag follows a kid while carrying a gun...?

Nice choice of words. When describing who he saw that looked suspicious, Zimmerman said a tall black late-teen teenager. Late-teen is what . . . anywhere from 17-19? There's no evidence that says Zimmerman thought he was chasing a "kid." Trayvon Martin ended up only being 17, but that's 1 year from being old enough to die for his country. That's hardly what I would call a "kid." Some older people use the term "kid" very loosely. A "kid" can be anywhere from, well, a kid, to 25 or 30 years old (it depends, in large part, on how old the person is that's calling one a kid).

PhinzN703
03-30-2012, 10:16 AM
Just giving my lay opinion about why he might lie....never said it was a good strategy :lol:

Most definitely man. If this prick is lying about his injuries, that has to signal he's doomed.

phins_4_ever
03-30-2012, 10:24 AM
so to all the people treating the one witness as god, here is another eyewitness that seems to say otherwise

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

ie, the witnesses are not clear in this case. With who was on top, with whose voice was yelling. Different witnesses are saying different things, but Fox and Friends on this site are focusing on the one witness and the father.

"you are going to die tonight" Please. Most pathetic bs made up story I have ever heard.

So that eye witness contradicts the pavement part?

And now they discovered the broken nose the next day? And the police cleaned him up at the scene? Wow.

But Zimmerman's guilt is already debunked. :ponder:

PhinzN703
03-30-2012, 10:30 AM
o9A-gp8mrdw

The unedited version. Definitely notice a difference from the edited news versions. It appears that he stopped chasing Trayvon and went back to his car. Also at the 2:20 mark you hear him get out of his car and start walking or running. That's when you hear him say the F'n ---- comment. To me it sound like he says cold because he just stepped out of his car and it was cold. Now that's just what I heard but all experts agree that it's inconclusive.


I think he says "These F'ing coons". The last syllable he uses sounds like a S to me. If true, fry the bastard.

Locke
03-30-2012, 11:15 AM
It depends on your definition of innocent. Aside from "harmless in effect", sure, but by all the other standards, he certainly appears to be innocent. However, using the same logic, any person who kills in self-defense isn't innocent either.
"1.
a : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child>
b : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze>
c : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a wholly innocent transaction>
2
a : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuous
b : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>
3
: lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics — Marcia Davenport>"



Nice choice of words. When describing who he saw that looked suspicious, Zimmerman said a tall black late-teen teenager. Late-teen is what . . . anywhere from 17-19? There's no evidence that says Zimmerman thought he was chasing a "kid." Trayvon Martin ended up only being 17, but that's 1 year from being old enough to die for his country. That's hardly what I would call a "kid." Some older people use the term "kid" very loosely. A "kid" can be anywhere from, well, a kid, to 25 or 30 years old (it depends, in large part, on how old the person is that's calling one a kid).

So the gist of your argument is that Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong. Is that correct...?

phins_4_ever
03-30-2012, 11:15 AM
It depends on your definition of innocent. Aside from "harmless in effect", sure, but by all the other standards, he certainly appears to be innocent. However, using the same logic, any person who kills in self-defense isn't innocent either.


That is actually correct. That's why that law is ridiculous. Everybody's definition of self defense is different. Without a clear line a person who looks funny at me ought to be shot because I feel threatened, feared for my life, and I am acting in self defense. It doesn't really matter if I am using the self defense as a pre-emptive. All I need to know is that I felt threatened.

Under that law I can also 'force' a confrontation or be the aggressor and act under the law in self defense.

Here is a 911 call from Joe Horn in Texas in 2007. He was warned 14 times NOT to go out. He still went out and shot two burglars who burglarized the neighbors house. That the two people were illegals and criminals is secondary because at that very moment Mr Horn didn't know anything.
He was NOT convicted claiming that he acted under his right to defend himself.

This and the Zimmerman story (Martin had a right to be in the neighborhood) show you how dangerous this law is. Technically you can remove this law and all laws governing murder, man slaughter and homicides as the 'stand your ground' law just supports lynch justice. In hat case it is how many would like it: government out of our lives.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 11:55 AM
You obviously also heard that after Zimmerman said 'he is running' he confirmed to the police that he is following Martin.
With that we have established that Zimmerman was following him and not the other way around. Thank you.

You clearly hear Zimmerman running at first especially with the sound of the wind hitting the phone. Then toward the end you hear him stop running and the hear the wind on the phone stop too. You can hear his breathing come to a more regular pace and him walking. So at some point he did stop the chase.

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 11:57 AM
I think he says "These F'ing coons". The last syllable he uses sounds like a S to me. If true, fry the bastard.

I think everyone is going to hear what ever they want to hear. Either way it's inconclusive and definitely not enough evidence to proclaim a hate crime or racism.

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 12:02 PM
Just to play devil's advocate. Let's say Zimmerman is telling the truth and Trayvon did go for his gun and said "You're going to die". Would you guys feel different?

Locke
03-30-2012, 12:37 PM
Just to play devil's advocate. Let's say Zimmerman is telling the truth and Trayvon did go for his gun and said "You're going to die". Would you guys feel different?

I'd still say Zimmerman was a douchebag and idiot for chasing a kid while carrying a gun. It would be more understandable, but I would still have a hard time seeing him as anything but a waste of oxygen...

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 12:47 PM
I'd still say Zimmerman was a douchebag and idiot for chasing a kid while carrying a gun. It would be more understandable, but I would still have a hard time seeing him as anything but a waste of oxygen...

I agree he's a douchebag and should have stayed in his car. But if he's telling the truth and Trayvon really did go for his gun then it would be a case of self-defence. With the 2 witness testimonies backing Zimmerman story it's understandable why the police didn't charge him. I'm trying to play the middle ground in this circus and to be honest defending the police isn't really my forte. I have to post an anti-police thread here real soon.

Locke
03-30-2012, 12:58 PM
I agree he's a douchebag and should have stayed in his car. But if he's telling the truth and Trayvon really did go for his gun then it would be a case of self-defence. With the 2 witness testimonies backing Zimmerman story it's understandable why the police didn't charge him. I'm trying to play the middle ground in this circus and to be honest defending the police isn't really my forte. I have to post an anti-police thread here real soon.

Is it self-defense if he was chasing the guy? Let's be honest, if you were being followed, would you wait to be attacked or would you try to take your pursuer down before it came to that? I think this will be a tricky thing to determine for the jury. If I was the prosecutor, my assertion would be that Trayvon was acting in self-defense because he was being followed. I would say the "conflict" didn't start when it became physical, but when Trayvon felt threatened by a pursuer. I would then bring in a psychologist, which is pretty much commonplace in trials like this, to explain to the jury the fight or flight response, as well as the state-of-mind of someone who is currently experiencing this, and why it would make sense that Trayvon didn't stop even after Zimmerman was on the ground and screaming for help. I wouldn't comment on the action being right or wrong (that's the jury's decision), but just explain the adrenaline rush and how it was most likely effecting his thought process.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is probably how the prosecution is going to handle it, because what happens after he starts the pursuing is irrelevant if that is determined to be the start of hostilities. Anything AFTER that would then be, legally, Trayvon acting in self-defense...

Spesh
03-30-2012, 01:12 PM
Just to play devil's advocate. Let's say Zimmerman is telling the truth and Trayvon did go for his gun and said "You're going to die". Would you guys feel different?

Not particularly.

Zimmerman started this entire incident. He provoked it, he continued it after being instructed by the professionals to stand down, and he kicked it up to another level when he followed Trayvon as he was running away. The man had multiple chances to avoid this situation.
Im trying to avoid to many assumptions about Zimmerman(other then him being a complete moron). I dont know if this is racially motivated or he was driven by a need to dispense justice or a solar flare briefly caused him to lose his mind. But whats clear to me is he was looking for a confrontation(for whatever reason) and when he found it it was more then he could handle.

Even if the shooting was completely justified after the fight started, Zimmerman went out of his way to find that fight. So no, even if thats the truth, it doesnt make me feel any different.

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 01:13 PM
Is it self-defense if he was chasing the guy? Let's be honest, if you were being followed, would you wait to be attacked or would you try to take your pursuer down before it came to that? I think this will be a tricky thing to determine for the jury. If I was the prosecutor, my assertion would be that Trayvon was acting in self-defense because he was being followed. I would say the "conflict" didn't start when it became physical, but when Trayvon felt threatened by a pursuer. I would then bring in a psychologist, which is pretty much commonplace in trials like this, to explain to the jury the fight or flight response, as well as the state-of-mind of someone who is currently experiencing this, and why it would make sense that Trayvon didn't stop even after Zimmerman was on the ground and screaming for help. I wouldn't comment on the action being right or wrong (that's the jury's decision), but just explain the adrenaline rush and how it was most likely effecting his thought process.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is probably how the prosecution is going to handle it, because what happens after he starts the pursuing is irrelevant if that is determined to be the start of hostilities. Anything AFTER that would then be, legally, Trayvon acting in self-defense...

You have to listen to the unedited 911 call I posted. He does stop chasing him at some pont after the operator told him not to. You hear the wind stop hitting the phone and his breathing come to a regular pace. He then went over more details with the operator for approximately one minute and forty five seconds with what appears to be him not running anymore. He states when the operator asks him for his home address "I don't want to give that out I don't know where this guy is". So the defense will make a strong case that Zimmerman stopped chasing him. Either way it's the testimonies of those 2 witnesses that is keeping Zimmerman from jail and confirming his side of the story. Unless some new evidence comes to light I don't see how they will get a conviction on him.

Locke
03-30-2012, 01:20 PM
You have to listen to the unedited 911 call I posted. He does stop chasing him at some pont after the operator told him not to. You hear the wind stop hitting the phone and his breathing come to a regular pace. He then went over more details with the operator for approximately one minute and forty five seconds with what appears to be him not running anymore. He states when the operator asks him for his home address "I don't want to give that out I don't know where this guy is". So the defense will make a strong case that Zimmerman stopped chasing him. Either way it's the testimonies of those 2 witnesses that is keeping Zimmerman from jail and confirming his side of the story. Unless some new evidence comes to light I don't see how they will get a conviction on him.

That's whats going to be tricky for the defense. Everything you said is an assumption. The wind could have stopped if he changed the position of his hand to cover the receiver of his cell phone, which would block the wind. There are several other possibilities, all of them equally as likely as Zimmerman simply stopping the chase. What we know for sure is that Zimmerman was chasing the kid at one point, that he was carrying a gun, and that the kid ended up dead. Everything else, barring new evidence, is all assumption and educated guesses, none of which are valid in a court of law short of new evidence or expert testimony. In all honesty, this looks really bad for Zimmerman. As tacky as it is, I'll have to quote Denzel Washington from Training Day on this: It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. There is very little that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in Zimmerman's favor. Unfortunately for him, there is quite a bit that can be proven against him...

Locke
03-30-2012, 01:21 PM
Not particularly.

Zimmerman started this entire incident. He provoked it, he continued it after being instructed by the professionals to stand down, and he kicked it up to another level when he followed Trayvon as he was running away. The man had multiple chances to avoid this situation.
Im trying to avoid to many assumptions about Zimmerman(other then him being a complete moron). I dont know if this is racially motivated or he was driven by a need to dispense justice or a solar flare briefly caused him to lose his mind. But whats clear to me is he was looking for a confrontation(for whatever reason) and when he found it it was more then he could handle.

Even if the shooting was completely justified after the fight started, Zimmerman went out of his way to find that fight. So no, even if thats the truth, it doesnt make me feel any different.

Exactly, no matter how you break this thing down, Zimmerman was the aggressor initially. That's all that matters. Once he became the aggressor, anything that happened after that is going to be self-defense...

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 01:22 PM
Not particularly.

Zimmerman started this entire incident. He provoked it, he continued it after being instructed by the professionals to stand down, and he kicked it up to another level when he followed Trayvon as he was running away. The man had multiple chances to avoid this situation.
Im trying to avoid to many assumptions about Zimmerman(other then him being a complete moron). I dont know if this is racially motivated or he was driven by a need to dispense justice or a solar flare briefly caused him to lose his mind. But whats clear to me is he was looking for a confrontation(for whatever reason) and when he found it it was more then he could handle.

Even if the shooting was completely justified after the fight started, Zimmerman went out of his way to find that fight. So no, even if thats the truth, it doesnt make me feel any different.

For me regardless of who started what. When someone goes for your gun and says that "you're going die" I would definitely take that as a threat to my life. Now we don't know that's what happeded here. And it could be all a lie told by Zimmerman. But it's those 2 witnesses that say they saw Zimmerman on the ground and the one witness in particular John who said he saw Zimmerman on the ground yelling for help. So it does give some credence to Zimmerman's story.

Clipse
03-30-2012, 01:22 PM
Zimmerman was wrong to chase the kid. However, he wasn't breaking any laws by doing so. If he really did lose the kid, that should of been that. He's walking back to his car, Martin should never have attacked him. He already escaped. If he felt threatened, he should of called 911. Instead, he chose to break the law by attacking Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shot him in self defense. The police are right in not charging him.

Locke
03-30-2012, 01:26 PM
Zimmerman was wrong to chase the kid. However, he wasn't breaking any laws by doing so. If he really did lose the kid, that should of been that. He's walking back to his car, Martin should never have attacked him. He already escaped. If he felt threatened, he should of called 911. Instead, he chose to break the law by attacking Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shot him in self defense. The police are right in not charging him.

We don't know that Zimmerman stopped chasing him, that's an assumption based on what we hear on the phone call. There is no way to prove he stopped chasing him. However, he WAS breaking laws by chasing the kid. Trayvon wasn't on Zimmerman's property, so he had legal reason to pursue anyone, especially while carrying a weapon. If someone was chasing you down the street, you'd go find a policeman and get the guy arrested for harrassment, assault, or something along those lines. Zimmerman started this whole thing by chasing the kid, there's no disputing that...

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 01:28 PM
That's whats going to be tricky for the defense. Everything you said is an assumption. The wind could have stopped if he changed the position of his hand to cover the receiver of his cell phone, which would block the wind. There are several other possibilities, all of them equally as likely as Zimmerman simply stopping the chase. What we know for sure is that Zimmerman was chasing the kid at one point, that he was carrying a gun, and that the kid ended up dead. Everything else, barring new evidence, is all assumption and educated guesses, none of which are valid in a court of law short of new evidence or expert testimony. In all honesty, this looks really bad for Zimmerman. As tacky as it is, I'll have to quote Denzel Washington from Training Day on this: It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. There is very little that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in Zimmerman's favor. Unfortunately for him, there is quite a bit that can be proven against him...


But the police didn't charge him even though they wanted too. And the reason why he wasn't charged was because they didn't have the evidence to prove it. The police have far more evidence than we do that's for sure and they still came up short. For me this witness testimony is a crucial part of the whole case.

iuPmu8UUbpQ

Locke
03-30-2012, 01:33 PM
But the police didn't charge him even though they wanted too. And the reason why he wasn't charged was because they didn't have the evidence to prove it. The police have far more evidence than we do that's for sure and they still came up short. For me this witness testimony is a crucial part of the whole case.

iuPmu8UUbpQ

But again, the testimony of both witnesses will be irrelevant if it is determined that Trayvon was acting in self defense. I agree with you, both people are guilty here. The problem is one of them ended up dead, and was killed by the one who started the conflict. If this goes to trial, and I have a feeling it will considering the amount of media attention it's getting, all that's going to matter is proving that Zimmerman started the whole thing by chasing Trayvon. Once that is determined, anything after that can be explained with self-defense and the fight-or-flight response...

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 01:51 PM
But again, the testimony of both witnesses will be irrelevant if it is determined that Trayvon was acting in self defense. I agree with you, both people are guilty here. The problem is one of them ended up dead, and was killed by the one who started the conflict. If this goes to trial, and I have a feeling it will considering the amount of media attention it's getting, all that's going to matter is proving that Zimmerman started the whole thing by chasing Trayvon. Once that is determined, anything after that can be explained with self-defense and the fight-or-flight response...

The witness testimony was relevant enough for Zimmerman to not get charged. I just don't see how the state is going to get a conviction without some new evidence. Beyond reasonable doubt is something the state just doesn't have at this point.

Spesh
03-30-2012, 02:26 PM
For me regardless of who started what. When someone goes for your gun and says that "you're going die" I would definitely take that as a threat to my life. Now we don't know that's what happeded here. And it could be all a lie told by Zimmerman. But it's those 2 witnesses that say they saw Zimmerman on the ground and the one witness in particular John who said he saw Zimmerman on the ground yelling for help. So it does give some credence to Zimmerman's story.

By all means, at that point it completely plausable(considering Zimmerman isnt lying) that Zimmerman took that as a threat to his life and defended himself. I took your question as asking for personal feelings on the incident, not necessarily who is legally responsible. My personal feelings are that Zimmerman went out of his way to incite a incident and when he couldnt handle it he, at that point, tried to defend himself. But the "defending yourself" is far less important to me then the fact that he did eveything possible to create the situation in the first place, despite being given multiple chances to defuse it.

As much as i believe its Zimmermans fault(100% his fault), as much as i want him brought to justice(and dont even care how they charge him, just get his off the street), i cant blame the police for this. In the eyes of the law, with the evidence at hand and eye witness accounts, Zimmerman was technically defending himself. And politicians make the law, the police just have to enforce it. There is a reason why they didnt press charges and its a pretty good one. Even if police avoided "screwing up"(which i think its completely overblown), there is overwhelming evidence of self defense.

But then, ethics and law can be two different things. Zimmerman is getting away with this basically because of a technicality. Provided they cant gather enough evidence to charge him with a hate crime, Zimmerman got lucky. On an aside, im worried about what sort of precendent this is going to set. Because you just know, with all the coverage of this case, that people could very well start inciting situations then running for their guns while using this case as an excuse.

PhinzN703
03-30-2012, 03:10 PM
I think everyone is going to hear what ever they want to hear. Either way it's inconclusive and definitely not enough evidence to proclaim a hate crime or racism.

It has nothing to do with what I want to hear. I don't want to hear anything. I said what it sounded like to me, nothing more or less. It is inconclusive though, I will grant you that.

Dolphins9954
03-30-2012, 04:04 PM
By all means, at that point it completely plausable(considering Zimmerman isnt lying) that Zimmerman took that as a threat to his life and defended himself. I took your question as asking for personal feelings on the incident, not necessarily who is legally responsible. My personal feelings are that Zimmerman went out of his way to incite a incident and when he couldnt handle it he, at that point, tried to defend himself. But the "defending yourself" is far less important to me then the fact that he did eveything possible to create the situation in the first place, despite being given multiple chances to defuse it.

As much as i believe its Zimmermans fault(100% his fault), as much as i want him brought to justice(and dont even care how they charge him, just get his off the street), i cant blame the police for this. In the eyes of the law, with the evidence at hand and eye witness accounts, Zimmerman was technically defending himself. And politicians make the law, the police just have to enforce it. There is a reason why they didnt press charges and its a pretty good one. Even if police avoided "screwing up"(which i think its completely overblown), there is overwhelming evidence of self defense.

But then, ethics and law can be two different things. Zimmerman is getting away with this basically because of a technicality. Provided the they cant gather enough evidence to charge him with a hate crime, Zimmerman got lucky. On an aside, im worried about what sort of precendent this is going to set. Because you just know, with all the coverage of this case, that people could very well start inciting situations then running for their guns while using this case as an excuse.

I agree he's a lucky SOB for sure. For me it's about it's about the 5th amendment, due process and the rule of law. At the same time I look at Zimmerman I think "you dumb mother f'er!! Look at the BS you caused". There's no question his actions started the chain of events. And if I was the police I would have wanted him in jail ASAP. And by all indications the police really did want to throw him in jail. But the evidence gathered gave a compelling case for self-defence and they were basically forced to let him go. It's still goes to the State Attorney or the Federal and charges could could come as more evidence comes in. So if anything the system worked!!! It's a bitter pill to swallow of course but it's the biggest thing getting ignored here especially in the media. Instead the media turned this whole thing into one big circus. Showing how easily they manipulate the story to fit the narrative they created. While producing the most divisive results possible. The demagoguery was in full effect. I see the fifth amendment as such a vital part of our country. Not just to protect someone who might be guilty. But most important to protect the innocent from things like mob metality and false charges.

NamathDrunkLove
03-30-2012, 04:25 PM
Zimmerman has not changed his story. The only thing he has done is added to it. I would have a different opinion if he just completely omitted sections of his story and replaced them with something else. He has yet to do that. Him adding a few quotes here and there and saying Trayvon went for his gun is not changing his story. Simply, those responses came after the bigger questions were asked. None of these quotes or actions contradict Zimmerman's initial story. The evidence is there that he is telling the truth. From the laceration on his head, to the 911 calls, to the eye witnesses. The evidence is also there to support that he was on his way back to his vehicle after the officers told him to stop following Trayvon. If that is also indeed true that blows holes in the theory that Zimmerman was looking for trouble. After Zimmerman was asked to stop following Trayvon, he (Zimmerman) was asked for his address. He said it softly and told the dispatcher that he didn't want to say it too loud because he had lost track of Trayvon. Again, this supports Zimmerman's story that after he got off the phone with 911 he was heading back to his vehicle. There has been zero evidence to support that Zimmerman was lying about any of his story.

Trayvon was hardly a "kid". He was seventeen. There have been many instances in this country where a seventeen and even some sixteen year olds have served life sentences for crimes that they have committed. He was old enough to own up for his actions. Again, assuming Trayvon threw the first punch, HE STARTED it. Regardless if he had been followed/chased he had no right to throw the first punch. Cooler heads prevail.

Trayvon broke Zimmerman’s nose, and once Zimmerman hit the ground, he (Trayvon) continued to have his head beat like a coconut against the concrete sidewalk. After screaming for help for over a minute the gun goes off. In order to receive the type of laceration Zimmerman had on the back of his head, his head would have to have been continually beat against the sidewalk. Lacerations like that don't just come with one blow to the head (unless it is very forceful), they come with several. Zimmerman was carrying a gun. Who cares? He wasn't breaking a law. And obviously he did it for self-protection. If he truly had intent on using it he would have used it after the first punches were thrown; not after close to 2 minutes of screaming for help.

There have been two eye witness accounts of the situation. The first states that he saw two men fight on the ground. One on top of the other. Also, in the first witness account, the person on the bottom of the fight fit Zimmerman's description and was said to be calling out for help. The second eye witness account said that they could not make out who was fighting (due to environmental conditions), just that there was fighting going on between two males (once again, one on top of the other) and the one on the bottom was crying for help. Next we have the fact that Zimmerman received medical attention at the scene but said he was fine and didn't need to go to the hospital (he received treatment from the hospital the next day). So based on the laceration on the back of Zimmerman's head, his broken nose, and the two eye witnesses saying that they saw two men fighting, we can safely assume that there was indeed a brawl (debunking the, “he was gunned down like a dog” mantra).

As for Trayvon’s girlfriend, she said she was on the phone with him before he was killed. She said Trayvon was scared because someone was following him and she told him to run. If you listen to George Zimmerman’s 911 call, he said “he has something in his hand” (probably the cell phone) followed by, “he is running”. Shortly after this point, the dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following Trayvon. He said, “yeah”. At which point the dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon. The next part is where Zimmerman was asked for his address and he said it softly telling the dispatcher he didn’t want to say it too loud because he didn’t know where Trayvon was (implying he stopped following him). They (Trayvon and Zimmerman) were not on an open street, but rather running in between apartment complexes (place where residents usually walked their dogs). So it is easy to believe that Zimmerman lost track of him while running in between these complexes. The next thing that Trayvon’s girlfriend said she heard was someone ask Trayvon who he was or where he was from (something along those lines). Then she heard a scuffle take place before she was disconnected. Because they weren’t on an open street Zimmerman and Trayvon could have very easily met up again and crossed paths. It’s not like Zimmerman turned around and walked right back down the street to his vehicle. He had to cross between buildings to get back to his car. I think that it is more plausible that Zimmerman and Trayvon crossed paths when Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle. While doing so Zimmerman asked who he was and what he was doing here. Perfectly reasonable questions to ask if you see someone in your neighborhood and you don’t know who they are.
Trayvon may not have had a concealed weapon, but he certainly used what was at his disposal when he bashed Zimmermans head against the sidewalk. Typically a sidewalk is not a weapon (. . . neither is a car, but even cars can be used as weapons) but in this case it was. Trayvon smashed Zimmermans head into it (and by Zimmerman’s account multiple times. And again, even if it was done only once, you do not get that kind of laceration without some serious force). That is a crime itself, intent to cause great bodily injury. If he had continued, (which is implied by Zimmerman in his report) he could have died or ended up a vegetable. If this is the case, then Zimmerman was within his right to protect himself. At this point, whether Trayvon was going for Zimmerman’s gun is irrelevant (even though this would be even more just cause to pull the trigger).
A lot of people ask if Zimmerman truly was getting beat then why wasn’t he in the hospital? Simple, he didn’t let it get that far. This doesn’t mean that he didn’t receive medical attention. He did. At the scene of the incident and a day later at the hospital. Several people think that it is convenient that Zimmerman’s discovered broken nose came a day later. The reports state that he received medical attention at a hospital the next day. This is the only time they could confirm he had a broken nose. Last time I heard they don’t supply x-ray machines in the EMS trucks.

I base my theories and assumptions on Zimmerman’s account of the incident because he is the only one who eye witnessed it through its entirety. Nobody except for Zimmerman knows exactly how it unfolded. We all base our assumptions on what has been presented to us and to me this is the most logical. To this date, there has been zero evidence against Zimmerman being untruthful in any of his story.

LANGER72
03-31-2012, 06:52 PM
Excellent "objective" analysis Namath.
The NAACP had a big march today. If Zimmerman would have walked outside, the mob would have lynched him from the nearest tree.
The groups are trying to exert pressure to influence the investigation. I hope justice and the rule of law prevails.

Locke
03-31-2012, 07:37 PM
Zimmerman has not changed his story. The only thing he has done is added to it. I would have a different opinion if he just completely omitted sections of his story and replaced them with something else. He has yet to do that. Him adding a few quotes here and there and saying Trayvon went for his gun is not changing his story. Simply, those responses came after the bigger questions were asked. None of these quotes or actions contradict Zimmerman's initial story. The evidence is there that he is telling the truth. From the laceration on his head, to the 911 calls, to the eye witnesses. The evidence is also there to support that he was on his way back to his vehicle after the officers told him to stop following Trayvon. If that is also indeed true that blows holes in the theory that Zimmerman was looking for trouble. After Zimmerman was asked to stop following Trayvon, he (Zimmerman) was asked for his address. He said it softly and told the dispatcher that he didn't want to say it too loud because he had lost track of Trayvon. Again, this supports Zimmerman's story that after he got off the phone with 911 he was heading back to his vehicle. There has been zero evidence to support that Zimmerman was lying about any of his story.

Trayvon was hardly a "kid". He was seventeen. There have been many instances in this country where a seventeen and even some sixteen year olds have served life sentences for crimes that they have committed. He was old enough to own up for his actions. Again, assuming Trayvon threw the first punch, HE STARTED it. Regardless if he had been followed/chased he had no right to throw the first punch. Cooler heads prevail.

Trayvon broke Zimmerman’s nose, and once Zimmerman hit the ground, he (Trayvon) continued to have his head beat like a coconut against the concrete sidewalk. After screaming for help for over a minute the gun goes off. In order to receive the type of laceration Zimmerman had on the back of his head, his head would have to have been continually beat against the sidewalk. Lacerations like that don't just come with one blow to the head (unless it is very forceful), they come with several. Zimmerman was carrying a gun. Who cares? He wasn't breaking a law. And obviously he did it for self-protection. If he truly had intent on using it he would have used it after the first punches were thrown; not after close to 2 minutes of screaming for help.

There have been two eye witness accounts of the situation. The first states that he saw two men fight on the ground. One on top of the other. Also, in the first witness account, the person on the bottom of the fight fit Zimmerman's description and was said to be calling out for help. The second eye witness account said that they could not make out who was fighting (due to environmental conditions), just that there was fighting going on between two males (once again, one on top of the other) and the one on the bottom was crying for help. Next we have the fact that Zimmerman received medical attention at the scene but said he was fine and didn't need to go to the hospital (he received treatment from the hospital the next day). So based on the laceration on the back of Zimmerman's head, his broken nose, and the two eye witnesses saying that they saw two men fighting, we can safely assume that there was indeed a brawl (debunking the, “he was gunned down like a dog” mantra).

As for Trayvon’s girlfriend, she said she was on the phone with him before he was killed. She said Trayvon was scared because someone was following him and she told him to run. If you listen to George Zimmerman’s 911 call, he said “he has something in his hand” (probably the cell phone) followed by, “he is running”. Shortly after this point, the dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following Trayvon. He said, “yeah”. At which point the dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon. The next part is where Zimmerman was asked for his address and he said it softly telling the dispatcher he didn’t want to say it too loud because he didn’t know where Trayvon was (implying he stopped following him). They (Trayvon and Zimmerman) were not on an open street, but rather running in between apartment complexes (place where residents usually walked their dogs). So it is easy to believe that Zimmerman lost track of him while running in between these complexes. The next thing that Trayvon’s girlfriend said she heard was someone ask Trayvon who he was or where he was from (something along those lines). Then she heard a scuffle take place before she was disconnected. Because they weren’t on an open street Zimmerman and Trayvon could have very easily met up again and crossed paths. It’s not like Zimmerman turned around and walked right back down the street to his vehicle. He had to cross between buildings to get back to his car. I think that it is more plausible that Zimmerman and Trayvon crossed paths when Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle. While doing so Zimmerman asked who he was and what he was doing here. Perfectly reasonable questions to ask if you see someone in your neighborhood and you don’t know who they are.
Trayvon may not have had a concealed weapon, but he certainly used what was at his disposal when he bashed Zimmermans head against the sidewalk. Typically a sidewalk is not a weapon (. . . neither is a car, but even cars can be used as weapons) but in this case it was. Trayvon smashed Zimmermans head into it (and by Zimmerman’s account multiple times. And again, even if it was done only once, you do not get that kind of laceration without some serious force). That is a crime itself, intent to cause great bodily injury. If he had continued, (which is implied by Zimmerman in his report) he could have died or ended up a vegetable. If this is the case, then Zimmerman was within his right to protect himself. At this point, whether Trayvon was going for Zimmerman’s gun is irrelevant (even though this would be even more just cause to pull the trigger).
A lot of people ask if Zimmerman truly was getting beat then why wasn’t he in the hospital? Simple, he didn’t let it get that far. This doesn’t mean that he didn’t receive medical attention. He did. At the scene of the incident and a day later at the hospital. Several people think that it is convenient that Zimmerman’s discovered broken nose came a day later. The reports state that he received medical attention at a hospital the next day. This is the only time they could confirm he had a broken nose. Last time I heard they don’t supply x-ray machines in the EMS trucks.

I base my theories and assumptions on Zimmerman’s account of the incident because he is the only one who eye witnessed it through its entirety. Nobody except for Zimmerman knows exactly how it unfolded. We all base our assumptions on what has been presented to us and to me this is the most logical. To this date, there has been zero evidence against Zimmerman being untruthful in any of his story.

Interesting. So we should just take the accused killer's word for what happened? You don't see the tiniest possible issue with that strategy...?

WSE
03-31-2012, 11:45 PM
yea, so Zimmerman is lying.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 12:36 AM
Well, I'd say he's in a bit of a pickle, yes?

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 01:57 AM
yea, so Zimmerman is lying.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story


But what about the eyewitness that saw and heard Zimmerman crying for help?

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 02:07 AM
Kid's like 13, he might be being coerced into his statement.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 02:12 AM
Kid's like 13, he might be being coerced into his statement.

No the other witness John.

iuPmu8UUbpQ

Not only did he see and hear Zimmerman on the ground yelling for help. He even acknowledged him and told him he was calling 911.

Breed
04-01-2012, 05:34 AM
Interesting. So we should just take the accused killer's word for what happened? You don't see the tiniest possible issue with that strategy...?

I can't answer for Namath, but from my point of view, if the evidence supports Zimmerman's account of the incident then there's no reason to assume he's lying.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:08 AM
yea, so Zimmerman is lying.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

That definitely makes things more interesting, but certainly it doesn't make things "conclusive". How certain was this eye-witness? Was he coerced? Who knows (it's possible but certainly not likely). Does the evidence to support that Trayvon Martin was on top (an eye-witness account and the fact that Martin's body was found face-down) mean anything?

If you're on top of your opponent, are you going to scream for help? I guess it's possible, but the only reason I can think of for Martin to be on top of Zimmerman and to cry for help is if it were Zimmerman that made the lethal threat to Martin (with Martin then going after Zimmerman's gun). If that's the case, would the screaming have gone on for so long? That's where the weight of both participants comes into play. Weight may not necessarily be equivalent to strength, but it's the only tangible evidence that could be presented to explain why the struggle for the gun went on for so long (if it turns outs that both parties suffered only minor injuries, that would give a lot of credence to a "struggle" rather than a "fight") . The larger the differential in pounds, the quicker the struggle would've ended in Zimmerman's favor (in theory). The weight of Zimmerman and Martin is still one of the many things we don't know yet (Martin has been reported as weighing anywhere from 140-180 pounds with Zimmerman being reported at 200+ pounds).

EDIT: There are some serious holes in this theory. Why did Zimmerman call 911 if he got one look at Martin and decided to kill him? If Zimmerman had no malice intent from the outset but decided he wanted to kill Martin after getting a closer look, how did he get the broken nose? If Martin was in danger from the outset, the only way Zimmerman gets the broken nose is by a head to the nose when he's already on the ground. It just doesn't make any sense that if Martin knew his life was in danger when they first broke words that he takes a swing at Zimmerman (when Zimmerman can just go for his gun making it a quick kill). If the verbal confrontation ended with a fight between the two for the gun, Zimmerman is on the bottom with no broken nose as of yet. If the struggle for the gun is taking place and Zimmerman's nose is not yet broken, that means his broken nose occurred during the struggle between the two for the gun (Martin's head to Zimmerman's face). That just doesn't add up.

If no forensic expert comes out and refutes the evidence supported in the article above, this situation went from being a clear case of self-defense to a very murky case that can't be 'proven' definitively one way or another. Do you go with science or an eye-witness? I for one would like to know a few things about the forensic techniques used to 'confirm' that it was Martin's voice screaming for help.

""Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

In the post 9-11 world, Owen says, voice identification is "the main biometric tool" used to track international criminals, as well as terrorists.

These people don't leave fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another," he says.""

I know he claims that there's no context needed, but my main question would be, is there any way the characteristics would change between someone talking (which is what this technique is mainly used for, from what I gather) and someone screaming. Furthermore, do the characteristics change from types of screams (there's a significant difference in sound between a scream in a conversation and a desperate scream for help). There are many things I'd love to know, not the least of which: How does the certainty/probability vary between a simple conversational tone and a screaming match? ["I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."] Tone, again, is a characteristic. Can this characteristic change in desperation?

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:12 AM
Kid's like 13, he might be being coerced into his statement.

. . . and Bigfoot might actually exist. Unless there's evidence to show that he was coerced, there's no reason to assume he was coerced.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:17 AM
Well, I'd say he's in a bit of a pickle, yes?

He's been in a pickle ever since the media ran with the story. He can't step outside without wondering if some nutjob is going to "capture" or kill him.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 09:10 AM
Interesting. So we should just take the accused killer's word for what happened? You don't see the tiniest possible issue with that strategy...?

When the evidence supports his claim... Absolutely. What ever happened to Innocent until proven Guilty? People like you and the Media are ready to hang Zimmerman before all of the facts and evidence come out. Is that "Justice"?

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 09:18 AM
yea, so Zimmerman is lying.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

Now the question is, what do you take as evidence? Eye witness accounts (which aren't necessarily 100% accurate)? Or scientific forensics that cannot be proved to be 100%? Murky Murky case. Again, I will rest judgement until ALL the facts and evidence are provided. Let the system play out.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 09:37 AM
Speaking of all of the evidence, why have we not heard one bit of information on Trayvon's body? Other than he was face down and dead (from a gunshot wound to the chest) we have not heard about any bruises, scrapes, cuts, grass stains (which were on the back of Zimmermans shirt) etc... Why have these things not been presented? These things would add significant weight to the facts and evidence.

Breed
04-01-2012, 09:46 AM
Here is a raw video without logo. It is quite lengthy and you can see him clearly from the front. No sign of being a beaten man.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-martin-zimmerman-video-20120329,0,809426.story

I think the witness statement from the girl friend was that he said that he was being followed. She said to run. But I guess she is not worthy of a statement because police never took her statement.



I think the biggest evidence is: he shot Martin. Duh!

Murder? Manslaughter? These are legal terms. I never said that he can be convicted under any kind of legal terms. My argument with you is that you argue that he was in a life and death struggle because Zimmerman took a beat down from Martin and he was just defending himself. My argument is - in an ethical and moral way - that he is a killer. You have very little - if any - evidence that he acted in self defense. Basically just Zimmerman's word, a little gash on his head, a couple of witness statements who saw something and a father's word. Oh and a police report. And we know that police reports are always correct.

My evidence is: a man with a gun and a history of violence; contradicting statements between Zimmerman/father of Zimmerman and the initial police call; a dead person; a video in which he does not appear 'beaten down', a woman's statement who was on the phone with Martin and confirmed that Zimmerman was following Martin; a call to the police by Zimmerman who told the dispatcher that he can be reached by phone about his location by the responding officer rather than going to the mail boxes as suggested by the dispatcher or staying in his car (thus my conclusion that Zimmerman followed Martin).

And that opinion has been formed by tossing out all racial and emotional aspects and all that other media crap.

That's some pretty sound logic. That is so BRILLIANT! Why has nobody else ever thought of that?

Breed
04-01-2012, 09:47 AM
so to all the people treating the one witness as god, here is another eyewitness that seems to say otherwise

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

ie, the witnesses are not clear in this case. With who was on top, with whose voice was yelling. Different witnesses are saying different things, but Fox and Friends on this site are focusing on the one witness and the father.

"you are going to die tonight" Please. Most pathetic bs made up story I have ever heard.

Zimmerman's story is a hell of a lot easier to believe than some of that other **** out there. The fact that eye-witness corroborate his story makes it even more believable.

Breed
04-01-2012, 09:59 AM
So that eye witness contradicts the pavement part?

And now they discovered the broken nose the next day? And the police cleaned him up at the scene? Wow.

But Zimmerman's guilt is already debunked. :ponder:

I'm assuming you're responding to this:

Another thing that gets me is the whole "justice for Trayvon" thing. The "Zimmerman is a murderer" stance has already pretty much been debunked . . .

Reading comprehension is your friend.

Breed
04-01-2012, 10:11 AM
Now the question is, what do you take as evidence? Eye witness accounts (which aren't necessarily 100% accurate)? Or scientific forensics that cannot be proved to be 100%? Murky Murky case. Again, I will rest judgement until ALL the facts and evidence are provided. Let the system play out.

It's called . . . wait for it . . . A JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS MAT!

http://www.petemuller.net/main/images/stories/funny/70384439_ba1fd5b9de.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_3mKXQYXAbQ/TbHiBSIt92I/AAAAAAAAB5s/Cuv2KpbfuWI/s1600/jump+to+conclusions+mat+tom.jpg

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 10:18 AM
The eyewitness testimony confirming Zimmerman was on the ground yelling for help especially from John makes me doubt the "voice analysis" results. Now eyewitness testimony has been shown to be unreliable at times. But 2 random eyewitnesses saying the same thing is still compelling enough for me to give the self-defence claim merit. At this point the speculation has taken over the case. There is still plenty of evidence we don't know about that the state has.

Breed
04-01-2012, 10:31 AM
The eyewitness testimony confirming Zimmerman was on the ground yelling for help especially from John makes me doubt the "voice analysis" results. Now eyewitness testimony has been shown to be unreliable at times. But 2 random eyewitnesses saying the same thing is still compelling enough for me to give the self-defence claim merit. At this point the speculation has taken over the case. There is still plenty of evidence we don't know about that the state has.

Exactly. It's speculation on the part of both sides. It's just a matter of piecing together all the evidence that is currently available and making the best possible judgements from what we already know.

Locke
04-01-2012, 11:52 AM
Speaking of all of the evidence, why have we not heard one bit of information on Trayvon's body? Other than he was face down and dead (from a gunshot wound to the chest) we have not heard about any bruises, scrapes, cuts, grass stains (which were on the back of Zimmermans shirt) etc... Why have these things not been presented? These things would add significant weight to the facts and evidence.

I don't think that would be public knowledge until he is charged and on trial. Although considering how crappy the police have handled this case up until now, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that stuff like that has been disposed of...

Locke
04-01-2012, 11:59 AM
The eyewitness testimony confirming Zimmerman was on the ground yelling for help especially from John makes me doubt the "voice analysis" results. Now eyewitness testimony has been shown to be unreliable at times. But 2 random eyewitnesses saying the same thing is still compelling enough for me to give the self-defence claim merit. At this point the speculation has taken over the case. There is still plenty of evidence we don't know about that the state has.

What did they really see though? What they claim they saw could be bits and pieces, with the blanks filled in by what they assume happened based on things they heard, and the outcome. The problem I have with eye-witness testimony in this case is that experts aren't going to sit down with these 2 witnesses and flesh that out unless this is actually sent to trial. As of right now, since there has been little investigation into the matter, so I would be confident in saying that all that has happened until now is that the witness statements were taken. You question the credibility of the tape, but I question what the witnesses think they saw. I'd feel much more comfortable with their recounts of what happened after they've both sat down with the experts and gone over it again. If I had to put my trust in the analysis of the tapes or the witnesses, I'd feel more comfortable trusting the science. This comes from me from a psychological perspective. Someone's memories, especially at times of stress, tend to be ambiguous at best...

Locke
04-01-2012, 12:02 PM
When the evidence supports his claim... Absolutely. What ever happened to Innocent until proven Guilty? People like you and the Media are ready to hang Zimmerman before all of the facts and evidence come out. Is that "Justice"?

Who said anything about calling him guilty and hanging him? My point is the evidence does not really seem to be in his favor, which makes taking his story at face-value even more questionable. Especially considering voice analysis experts have already shown his story to be untrue, in at least that aspect, even you have to admit we should all be wondering what else he said that isn't true...

phinfan3411
04-01-2012, 12:24 PM
My decision, or belief on the matter is 100% malleable, i feel this case rests on who was making the cries for help.

I say this because i have no way to understand how a person can shoot someone he did not know that was screaming for help, or how a person could continue to beat a person he did not know, who is screaming for help.

If that was, in fact, Trayvon screaming for help, then i believe Zimmerman is getting what he deserved.

If it was Zimmerman screaming for help, then i can understand the possible use of deadly force.

From the evidence i have seen, i do not think Zimmerman was, or is the person the press initially mad him out to be, and i base this on the unedited 911 call.

He did not seem to be in a confrontational mood, based on his tone, and not even wanting to give out his address because he didn't know where "this guy" is.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 12:30 PM
I don't know, I think we need to look at everything, but you can't take one side and run with it, and it only.

OJ Simpson was supposedly "guilty" too, but the Juice ended up running through the prosecution like he ran through defenses in the NFL. He told his side of the story, and it checked out.

I do wonder what the outrage would have been if it had been a black guy that shot a white kid, under the same circumstances. I'm sure the reactions of people who are defending Zimmerman now would probably be the opposite. The ones defending Zimmerman would probably turn into an all-out lynch mob if he had been black. I'm pretty sure some crazed gun nut would have capped the dude already.

It's all race in this. Nothing more. Because a white guy shot a black kid in a gated community, after stalking him, he's looked at as the "victim" (in Zimmerman's case), but if the shoe had been on the other foot, and it had been a black guy that stalked a white kid, then shot him and claimed "self defense", you'd have had an OJ-style outrage from whitebread America, all wanting a piece of him. Just like OJ. If Nicole Brown had been black, I don't know that you'd have seen 1/10th of the outrage that you saw in that case.

Breed
04-01-2012, 03:07 PM
I don't know, I think we need to look at everything, but you can't take one side and run with it, and it only.

OJ Simpson was supposedly "guilty" too, but the Juice ended up running through the prosecution like he ran through defenses in the NFL. He told his side of the story, and it checked out.

I do wonder what the outrage would have been if it had been a black guy that shot a white kid, under the same circumstances. I'm sure the reactions of people who are defending Zimmerman now would probably be the opposite. The ones defending Zimmerman would probably turn into an all-out lynch mob if he had been black. I'm pretty sure some crazed gun nut would have capped the dude already.

It's all race in this. Nothing more. Because a white guy shot a black kid in a gated community, after stalking him, he's looked at as the "victim" (in Zimmerman's case), but if the shoe had been on the other foot, and it had been a black guy that stalked a white kid, then shot him and claimed "self defense", you'd have had an OJ-style outrage from whitebread America, all wanting a piece of him. Just like OJ. If Nicole Brown had been black, I don't know that you'd have seen 1/10th of the outrage that you saw in that case.

Fine. Let's skirt around the Martin/Zimmerman case at hand.

There have been several black on white crimes since the Martin/Zimmerman story broke. Here are but a couple of examples: http://www.kctv5.com/story/17260926/mother-of-teen-who-claims-set-on-fire-says-were-being-brushed-off

http://hinterlandgazette.com/2012/03/unidentified-mississippi-state-university-student-killed-residence-hall-black-suspects-large.html

I've seen these cases mentioned elsewhere, but I haven't seen a ruckus raised over any of them (I'm not advocating there should be). My beef is the assumption many have on the Martin/Zimmerman incident. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, Zimmerman is guilty as sin. It's not right, and it has absolutely nothing to do with color of skin.

Breed
04-01-2012, 03:34 PM
What did they really see though? What they claim they saw could be bits and pieces, with the blanks filled in by what they assume happened based on things they heard, and the outcome. The problem I have with eye-witness testimony in this case is that experts aren't going to sit down with these 2 witnesses and flesh that out unless this is actually sent to trial. As of right now, since there has been little investigation into the matter, so I would be confident in saying that all that has happened until now is that the witness statements were taken. You question the credibility of the tape, but I question what the witnesses think they saw. I'd feel much more comfortable with their recounts of what happened after they've both sat down with the experts and gone over it again. If I had to put my trust in the analysis of the tapes or the witnesses, I'd feel more comfortable trusting the science. This comes from me from a psychological perspective. Someone's memories, especially at times of stress, tend to be ambiguous at best...

From a psychological perspective, how would extremely skewed media impact public opinion? Could this have any baring on previously unknown witnesses coming forward? If the media is skewed a particular way, wouldn't it make sense the witnesses follow this trend?

Yet . . .
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

But I guess he wouldn't know anything, I mean, he only saw Zimmerman first-hand. That low-res surveillance video certainly trumps that.

As for the audio clip of Zimmerman. As I stated earlier:
If no forensic expert comes out and refutes the evidence supported in the article above, this situation went from being a clear case of self-defense to a very murky case that can't be 'proven' definitively one way or another. Do you go with science or an eye-witness? I for one would like to know a few things about the forensic techniques used to 'confirm' that it was Martin's voice screaming for help.

""Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

In the post 9-11 world, Owen says, voice identification is "the main biometric tool" used to track international criminals, as well as terrorists.

These people don't leave fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another," he says.""

I know he claims that there's no context needed, but my main question would be, is there any way the characteristics would change between someone talking (which is what this technique is mainly used for, from what I gather) and someone screaming. Furthermore, do the characteristics change from types of screams (there's a significant difference in sound between a scream in a conversation and a desperate scream for help). There are many things I'd love to know, not the least of which: How does the certainty/probability vary between a simple conversational tone and a screaming match? ["I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."] Tone, again, is a characteristic. Can this characteristic change in desperation?

If the comparison were between one conversational voice to another, that would pretty damn conclusive. But it wasn't. That is why I have significant doubts. How many cries for help have these experts analyzed?

Breed
04-01-2012, 03:39 PM
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

TAMPA - One of George Zimmerman's neighbors is speaking out, saying looks can be deceiving.

Despite booking video from the Sanford Police Department that many say shows George Zimmerman largely unscathed from his encounter with Trayvon Martin, the neighbor said he saw Zimmerman with obvious injuries.

The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren't flat, had a bump on them," the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

He described where the injuries were.

"I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen," he said.

He points out exactly where on a picture.

"I seen the bandage right here, and this side of his nose and this side of his nose was swollen.

The surveillance video was released by Sanford police of Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning after the shooting. Bruises and bandages aren't visible, but you can see an officer looking at the back of his head.

"Once you get into a fight you don't show bruises that day, it shows the next day," he said.

The neighbor says Zimmerman had to have acted in self-defense.

"I think something happened that night where he had to defend himself," the neighbor said.

He says that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is that of George Zimmerman.

"I hear his voice every single day, I talk to him every single day," he said.

He says the case has haunted him.

"I've been thinking about it morning noon and night ever since I seen the bandages on him," he said.

He believes Zimmerman was defending his life, and that's why he's defending Zimmerman now. He says he doesn't believe race played a role in what happened.

"I don't think race is involved at all, because I've seen black, African-American folks come to George's house," he said.

The neighbor says he's tired of Zimmerman being portrayed as the bad guy.

"Everyone needs to let the justice system take its course before rushing to judgment," he said.

Breed
04-01-2012, 03:52 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7403734n

I'd really like to know the condition of Trayvon's clothes, and more specifically, whether or not they had grass stains (and where). Trayvon didn't appear to have any scuff marks on his hands that indicated he was in a fight, but we don't even know yet how many times Zimmerman claimed Trayvon punched him. What we do know from Zimmerman's story is that Trayvon threw a single punch at Zimmerman that supposedly broke his nose. Zimmerman also claims Trayvon banged his head against the sidewalk (which would leave no scuff marks on Trayvon). We also know that Zimmerman did suffer from injuries, the only thing that is in question is the severity of the injuries he sustained.

Locke
04-01-2012, 03:53 PM
From a psychological perspective, how would extremely skewed media impact public opinion? Could this have any baring on previously unknown witnesses coming forward? If the media is skewed a particular way, wouldn't it make sense the witnesses follow this trend?

Yet . . .
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

But I guess he wouldn't know anything, I mean, he only saw Zimmerman first-hand. That low-res surveillance video certainly trumps that.

As for the audio clip of Zimmerman. As I stated earlier:
If no forensic expert comes out and refutes the evidence supported in the article above, this situation went from being a clear case of self-defense to a very murky case that can't be 'proven' definitively one way or another. Do you go with science or an eye-witness? I for one would like to know a few things about the forensic techniques used to 'confirm' that it was Martin's voice screaming for help.

""Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

In the post 9-11 world, Owen says, voice identification is "the main biometric tool" used to track international criminals, as well as terrorists.

These people don't leave fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another," he says.""

I know he claims that there's no context needed, but my main question would be, is there any way the characteristics would change between someone talking (which is what this technique is mainly used for, from what I gather) and someone screaming. Furthermore, do the characteristics change from types of screams (there's a significant difference in sound between a scream in a conversation and a desperate scream for help). There are many things I'd love to know, not the least of which: How does the certainty/probability vary between a simple conversational tone and a screaming match? ["I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."] Tone, again, is a characteristic. Can this characteristic change in desperation?

If the comparison were between one conversational voice to another, that would pretty damn conclusive. But it wasn't. That is why I have significant doubts. How many cries for help have these experts analyzed?

I'm assuming the witness recounts of what happened were taken at the time of the incident, not later, so public opinion should have had no effect on it.

You can discount the science all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that these analyses were done by experts who have done this multiple times prior. It is a form of forensic evidence that is accepted in court rooms across the country, and has been used to convict. Your opinion that it is inconclusive is coming from your personal bias in favor of Zimmerman, not any facts. This is a serious blow to his story, and one that may be the catalyst for an eventual prosecution, assuming the initial investigation wasn't messed up too badly, which may be the case...

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 04:01 PM
The funeral director that dealt with Martin's funeral said he had no visible wounds that would be consistent with fighting with someone.

Breed
04-01-2012, 04:12 PM
The funeral director that dealt with Martin's funeral said he had no visible wounds that would be consistent with fighting with someone.

Yet Zimmerman sustained injury. None of that conflicts with what is known of Zimmerman's story. BTW, have you ever been in a fight? The person on top always has a significant advantage.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:16 PM
It is possible to win a fight and have little to no marks on you.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 04:19 PM
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

TAMPA - One of George Zimmerman's neighbors is speaking out, saying looks can be deceiving.

Despite booking video from the Sanford Police Department that many say shows George Zimmerman largely unscathed from his encounter with Trayvon Martin, the neighbor said he saw Zimmerman with obvious injuries.

The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren't flat, had a bump on them," the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

He described where the injuries were.

"I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen," he said.

He points out exactly where on a picture.

"I seen the bandage right here, and this side of his nose and this side of his nose was swollen.

The surveillance video was released by Sanford police of Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning after the shooting. Bruises and bandages aren't visible, but you can see an officer looking at the back of his head.

"Once you get into a fight you don't show bruises that day, it shows the next day," he said.

The neighbor says Zimmerman had to have acted in self-defense.

"I think something happened that night where he had to defend himself," the neighbor said.

He says that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is that of George Zimmerman.

"I hear his voice every single day, I talk to him every single day," he said.

He says the case has haunted him.

"I've been thinking about it morning noon and night ever since I seen the bandages on him," he said.

He believes Zimmerman was defending his life, and that's why he's defending Zimmerman now. He says he doesn't believe race played a role in what happened.

"I don't think race is involved at all, because I've seen black, African-American folks come to George's house," he said.

The neighbor says he's tired of Zimmerman being portrayed as the bad guy.

"Everyone needs to let the justice system take its course before rushing to judgment," he said.

However, he also was known as a loose cannon at work, and lost his job because of his bad temper.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122583/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmermans-Jekyll-Hyde-temper-cost-security-guard-job.html



George Zimmermanís 'Jekyll and Hyde' personality came to be such a problem that he was fired from his job as a security guard, years before the Trayvon Martin case, according to a former co-worker.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122583/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmermans-Jekyll-Hyde-temper-cost-security-guard-job.html#ixzz1qp1g53cC

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:19 PM
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012

TAMPA - One of George Zimmerman's neighbors is speaking out, saying looks can be deceiving.

Despite booking video from the Sanford Police Department that many say shows George Zimmerman largely unscathed from his encounter with Trayvon Martin, the neighbor said he saw Zimmerman with obvious injuries.

The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren't flat, had a bump on them," the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

He described where the injuries were.

"I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen," he said.

He points out exactly where on a picture.

"I seen the bandage right here, and this side of his nose and this side of his nose was swollen.

The surveillance video was released by Sanford police of Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning after the shooting. Bruises and bandages aren't visible, but you can see an officer looking at the back of his head.

"Once you get into a fight you don't show bruises that day, it shows the next day," he said.

The neighbor says Zimmerman had to have acted in self-defense.

"I think something happened that night where he had to defend himself," the neighbor said.

He says that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is that of George Zimmerman.

"I hear his voice every single day, I talk to him every single day," he said.

He says the case has haunted him.

"I've been thinking about it morning noon and night ever since I seen the bandages on him," he said.

He believes Zimmerman was defending his life, and that's why he's defending Zimmerman now. He says he doesn't believe race played a role in what happened.

"I don't think race is involved at all, because I've seen black, African-American folks come to George's house," he said.

The neighbor says he's tired of Zimmerman being portrayed as the bad guy.

"Everyone needs to let the justice system take its course before rushing to judgment," he said.

The end was the best part. The speculation is overboard at this point.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 04:20 PM
It is possible to win a fight and have little to no marks on you.

Busting a dude's nose wouldn't do anything to your fist? Not sure about that one.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:31 PM
I'm assuming the witness recounts of what happened were taken at the time of the incident, not later, so public opinion should have had no effect on it.

You can discount the science all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that these analyses were done by experts who have done this multiple times prior. It is a form of forensic evidence that is accepted in court rooms across the country, and has been used to convict. Your opinion that it is inconclusive is coming from your personal bias in favor of Zimmerman, not any facts. This is a serious blow to his story, and one that may be the catalyst for an eventual prosecution, assuming the initial investigation wasn't messed up too badly, which may be the case...

The defense will have experts saying the complete opposite along with eyewitness testimony backing Zimmerman. The prosecution won't have eyewitness testimony disproving Zimmerman's claim. Which helps Zimmerman's case big time. Either way there is plenty of evidence to back Zimmerman's story hence the reason why he's not in jail. Even with the police wanting to charge him. In the end the 5th amendment prevailed and all we can do at this point is wait and see what happens as more evidence comes to light.

Locke
04-01-2012, 04:32 PM
It is possible to win a fight and have little to no marks on you.

With the beating Zimmerman claims to have taken, there would absolutely be marks Martin's fists. Unless Martin was wearing gloves, maybe? I don't recall that being the case though...

Breed
04-01-2012, 04:32 PM
I'm assuming the witness recounts of what happened were taken at the time of the incident, not later, so public opinion should have had no effect on it.

I have no idea of the police questioned this guy or not, but that is the story he's saying now. My point was, public opinion can make you think twice about what you thought you saw or knew. Shouldn't there be a lack of witnesses coming out in favor of Zimmerman's story?


You can discount the science all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that these analyses were done by experts who have done this multiple times prior. It is a form of forensic evidence that is accepted in court rooms across the country, and has been used to convict. Your opinion that it is inconclusive is coming from your personal bias in favor of Zimmerman, not any facts. This is a serious blow to his story, and one that may be the catalyst for an eventual prosecution, assuming the initial investigation wasn't messed up too badly, which may be the case...

If it were simple comparison of conversational voices I'd have no problem jumping to the conclusion that Zimmerman is a ****head that deserves to go to prison. I just find the presented scientific evidence in this case to be highly subjective. Are you really going to sit here and tell me that Zimmerman didn't really sustain any injury because you didn't see it in some extremely low-res video? There's a considerable amount of eye-witness testimony that claims to the contrary.

So because I believe there's more evidence to support Zimmerman's story than not, I'm biased. OK.:rolleyes2:

Locke
04-01-2012, 04:35 PM
The defense will have experts saying the complete opposite along with eyewitness testimony backing Zimmerman. The prosecution won't have eyewitness testimony disproving Zimmerman's claim. Which helps Zimmerman's case big time. Either way there is plenty of evidence to back Zimmerman's story hence the reason why he's not in jail. Even with the police wanting to charge him. In the end the 5th amendment prevailed and all we can do at this point is wait and see what happens as more evidence comes to light.

I don't know man, if we ignore all the propaganda behind this and just look at it, things aren't looking good for Zimmerman here. An expert in the field has said that it's not Zimmerman screaming on the tape, and now there is not a single mark on Martin's body that would indicate a struggle, per the funeral home. Yes, it's possible for someone to whoop someone's *** bad enough that they don't even get grazed, but come on, how often is that? It's not adding up...

Breed
04-01-2012, 04:35 PM
With the beating Zimmerman claims to have taken, there would absolutely be marks Martin's fists. Unless Martin was wearing gloves, maybe? I don't recall that being the case though...

Did Zimmerman claim to have taken multiple "punches"? All I remember hearing (referring to Zimmerman's story) is how Martin broke his nose with a single punch. It's also fairly conclusive that Martin slammed Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk at least once (as Zimmerman's story again claims). So where's the inconsistency?

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:36 PM
Busting a dude's nose wouldn't do anything to your fist? Not sure about that one.

Not to toot my own horn. But I've done it before. Last fight I got in years ago resulted with me doing a number on a guy with no marks on me. My fists were red for a bit but overall had no marks at all.

Locke
04-01-2012, 04:38 PM
I have no idea of the police questioned this guy or not, but that is the story he's saying now. My point was, public opinion can make you think twice about what you thought you saw or knew. Shouldn't there be a lack of witnesses coming out in favor in Zimmerman's story?



If it were simple comparison of conversational voices I'd have no problem jumping to the conclusion that Zimmerman is a ****head that deserves to go to prison. I just find the presented scientific evidence in this case to be highly subjective. Are you really going to sit here and tell me that Zimmerman didn't really sustain any injury because you didn't see it in some extremely low-res video? There's a considerable amount of eye-witness testimony that claims to the contrary.

So because I believe there's more evidence to support Zimmerman's story than not, I'm biased. OK.:rolleyes2:

No, you're biased because you are disregarding any entire field of forensic science because you don't agree with it. The man gave a brief explanation of why he doesn't need to compare conversational voices, but you're still claiming that you know more than him about the field by saying that he needs them and it isn't valid without it. When a leading scientist in the field comes out and says, "I can accurately compare the voice of Zimmerman screaming to the voice of him talking normally", and has done it before, but you still claim it isn't valid, what would you call it? I can't think of any other word besides biased...

Breed
04-01-2012, 04:39 PM
I don't know man, if we ignore all the propaganda behind this and just look at it, things aren't looking good for Zimmerman here. An expert in the field has said that it's not Zimmerman screaming on the tape, and now there is not a single mark on Martin's body that would indicate a struggle, per the funeral home. Yes, it's possible for someone to whoop someone's *** bad enough that they don't even get grazed, but come on, how often is that? It's not adding up...

It is important to note that these are just observations from a mortician. He isn't a medical examiner.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:40 PM
With the beating Zimmerman claims to have taken, there would absolutely be marks Martin's fists. Unless Martin was wearing gloves, maybe? I don't recall that being the case though...


Depends on how the fight went down. According to Zimmerman (consider the source) Trayvon hit him once in the nose and then started pounding his head on the sidewalk.

Breed
04-01-2012, 04:41 PM
Busting a dude's nose wouldn't do anything to your fist? Not sure about that one.

Busting someone's nose would lead to a mark somewhere (how visible would it be though?). Again, it's important to note this guy is not a medical examiner.

Locke
04-01-2012, 04:45 PM
Depends on how the fight went down. According to Zimmerman (consider the source) Trayvon hit him once in the nose and then started pounding his head on the sidewalk.

Possible, but Zimmerman wasn't a small dude, and this was a 17 year old kid. I could see a big dude busting a smaller dude's nose and not scuffing up his knuckles, but I can't see a teenager hitting a decent sized guy like Zimmerman and not leaving a mark on his knuckle. That's just my opinion though. More importantly, why wasn't Zimmerman fighting back? If some dude punches me in the nose and slams my head into the sidewalk, I'm not just going to lay there and take it while screaming for help. There would have to be defensive wounds Martin's body somewhere, unless Zimmerman is simply the most passive victim in the world. Fight or flight response kicks in, and that's not a choice, that's an instinct. It still doesn't add up to me...

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:51 PM
Possible, but Zimmerman wasn't a small dude, and this was a 17 year old kid. I could see a big dude busting a smaller dude's nose and not scuffing up his knuckles, but I can't see a teenager hitting a decent sized guy like Zimmerman and not leaving a mark on his knuckle. That's just my opinion though. More importantly, why wasn't Zimmerman fighting back? If some dude punches me in the nose and slams my head into the sidewalk, I'm not just going to lay there and take it while screaming for help. There would have to be defensive wounds Martin's body somewhere, unless Zimmerman is simply the most passive victim in the world. Fight or flight response kicks in, and that's not a choice, that's an instinct. It still doesn't add up to me...


You ever been punched in the nose before? It literally ends fights and at the very least causes enough disorientation for you to be in big trouble. First rule I learned when it comes to fighting is aim for the nose.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 04:55 PM
It is important to note that these are just observations from a mortician. He isn't a medical examiner.

I prefer to hear what the doctor who performed the autopsy has to say.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 05:04 PM
I prefer to hear what the doctor who performed the autopsy has to say.

Has there even been an autopsy? What if Trayvon had drugs in his system and was high? What if he had a broken hand? What if he had defense marks on his body? I don't think any of that would be released until there is a trial. Assuming there is one of course. But if there has been an autopsy and some of those things could be confirmed or denied, do you really think the family would release that type of info? There is a reason why they placed a hold on his school records. They don't won't public opinion to change. The media and his family are doing everything they can to deface Zimmerman and make Trayvon look like the victim. They are succeeding admirably.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 05:06 PM
If he were high on marijuana, he wouldn't be fighting anyone.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 05:08 PM
Has there even been an autopsy? What if Trayvon had drugs in his system and was high? What if he had a broken hand? What if he had defense marks on his body? I don't think any of that would be released until there is a trial. Assuming there is one of course. But if there has been an autopsy and some of those things could be confirmed or denied, do you really think the family would release that type of info? There is a reason why they placed a hold on his school records. They don't won't public opinion to change. The media and his family are doing everything they can to deface Zimmerman and make Trayvon look like the victim. They are succeeding admirably.

I'm pretty sure there is. It's standard procedure along with blood tests too.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 05:10 PM
Has there even been an autopsy? What if Trayvon had drugs in his system and was high? What if he had a broken hand? What if he had defense marks on his body? I don't think any of that would be released until there is a trial. Assuming there is one of course. But if there has been an autopsy and some of those things could be confirmed or denied, do you really think the family would release that type of info? There is a reason why they placed a hold on his school records. They don't won't public opinion to change. The media and his family are doing everything they can to deface Zimmerman and make Trayvon look like the victim. They are succeeding admirably.

So if that's the case, why would all of the "Martin got booted from school, look at his Facebook!11," type things come out? Your criticism of the Fourth Estate isn't much warranted. The more conservative media paints Martin as Tupac from "Juice", and the more left-leaning media focuses mainly on Zimmerman.

Breed
04-01-2012, 05:31 PM
No, you're biased because you are disregarding any entire field of forensic science because you don't agree with it.

I guess you're biased because you totally disregard eye-witness accounts. It goes both ways.

My original response to the forensic evidence was this: That definitely makes things more interesting, but certainly it doesn't make things "conclusive"


The man gave a brief explanation of why he doesn't need to compare conversational voices, but you're still claiming that you know more than him about the field by saying that he needs them and it isn't valid without it. When a leading scientist in the field comes out and says, "I can accurately compare the voice of Zimmerman screaming to the voice of him talking normally",

I never said it wasn't "valid", all I said was that I doubted the conclusiveness of the evidence. Big difference. Again, I'd have no qualms if we were comparing conversational tones, or somewhat like pitches and tones. As far as having a problem with scientific evidence, that couldn't be further from the truth. I just prefer it to be objective science.

Get back to me when they do a comparative audio analysis between Martin and Zimmerman. Tell me how "conclusive" it is then.


and has done it before, but you still claim it isn't valid, what would you call it? I can't think of any other word besides biased...

Has done what before? Nowhere in the article does it say that either expert has done a case like this before. By "like this", I mean two highly contrasting voices. 1st voice: very non-nonchalant (911 call) 2nd voice: desperate cries for help.

Not only do we not really get a comparison/contrast between the different voices (Martin/Zimmerman), but somehow this is more credible than witness statements?

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012
He says that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is that of George Zimmerman.

"I hear his voice every single day, I talk to him every single day," he said.

If he's talked to him everyday, is it reasonable to assume he's heard at least some of the following from Zimmerman?: laughing, crying, screaming, shouting etc.

Again, it boils down to what you put more credibility to. Numerous witnesses or the scientific evidence that has been presented so far. Maybe it's just me, but a low-res video and a subjective audio analysis just isn't enough to believe Zimmerman is lying.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 05:36 PM
So if that's the case, why would all of the "Martin got booted from school, look at his Facebook!11," type things come out? Your criticism of the Fourth Estate isn't much warranted. The more conservative media paints Martin as Tupac from "Juice", and the more left-leaning media focuses mainly on Zimmerman.

Those things came out on the internet WAY before they were ever on a mainstream media outlet. The reason they hit the media is because Trayvon's mother went to Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson wanting the case to become public. That information would have never hit the media had this not gotten any bigger. Appearantly you didn't know about the parents trying to block his school record. As for my criticism of the fourth estate, it is very much warranted. Like you said, you have the conservative media making Trayvon out like Tupac, and the liberal media out to against Zimmerman. Posting a kid picture of Trayvon next to a 2005 picture of Zimmeran in an Orange county Jump suit isn't spinning? Give me a break. How about this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/nbc-to-do-internal-investigation-on-zimmerman-segment/2012/03/31/gIQAc4HhnS_blog.html?hpid=z6

My criticism of the media is very much warranted. Try taking the blinders off.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 05:38 PM
What does his school record have to do with him being shot and killed?

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 05:39 PM
eW4n4ENUQcM

There's plenty of people that sound a lot different screaming compared to talking.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 05:40 PM
hyYGLTtdCh8

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 05:44 PM
CkwtygLgFok

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 05:46 PM
eW4n4ENUQcM

There's plenty of people that sound a lot different screaming compared to talking.

So can a 17 year old kid.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 05:51 PM
So can a 17 year old kid.

And so can Zimmerman. Which makes the experts report circumstantial at best. But Zimmerman has eyewitness accounts backing his side.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 05:53 PM
What does his school record have to do with him being shot and killed?

Trayvon's character in question is important for the same reason Zimmerman was fired.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 05:58 PM
If he were high on marijuana, he wouldn't be fighting anyone.
And if he were high on coke?
Edit: If he was high on Marijuana, adrenaline would have kicked in and negated much of the effects of a weed high.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:03 PM
Possible, but Zimmerman wasn't a small dude, and this was a 17 year old kid. I could see a big dude busting a smaller dude's nose and not scuffing up his knuckles, but I can't see a teenager hitting a decent sized guy like Zimmerman and not leaving a mark on his knuckle. That's just my opinion though.

Trayvon has been reported at anywhere from 6'1-6'3, 140-180 pounds. Looking at the photos of him he looks a to be in the 160-170 range. Skinny, but definitely not small. And I'm not sure about you, but if I were to get in a fight with my 17 year old self (about 120 pounds at the time), my present day self (30 years old, 165 pounds), my present day self would get utterly destroyed. Most 28-30 year olds are in worse shape than when they were high schoolers (17, more specifically) . Trayvon Martin was also an athlete.


More importantly, why wasn't Zimmerman fighting back? If some dude punches me in the nose and slams my head into the sidewalk, I'm not just going to lay there and take it while screaming for help. There would have to be defensive wounds Martin's body somewhere, unless Zimmerman is simply the most passive victim in the world. Fight or flight response kicks in, and that's not a choice, that's an instinct. It still doesn't add up to me...

You've either never been in a fight, or have never been in a position that Zimmerman was described as being in. If the broken nose didn't stun you, the collision with the sidewalk would. From that point, it's a matter of fighting with someone that 'has the high ground.' It is very difficult to deal any damage if your back is on the ground (and that's even if you haven't been stunned by a broken nose or a forceful collision with the ground/sidewalk)

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:03 PM
And if he were high on coke?

He probably would have been in a feisty mood, however there's no evidence of cocaine use with him, so I don't know why you'd bring that up, it has nothing to do at hand. Weed was brought up because it had been alleged that he was tossed from school for some MJ use.

Are you trying to insinuate that Afro-American teens resort to cocaine use? Not quite seeing what you're getting at here.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:06 PM
Edit: If he was high on Marijuana, adrenaline would have kicked in and negated much of the effects of a weed high.

Probably not. He'd have likely had a "bad trip", freaking out and screaming, not fighting. Delta 9 in THC actually prevents adrenaline from being released in high amounts.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:08 PM
And so can Zimmerman. Which makes the experts report circumstantial at best. But Zimmerman has eyewitness accounts backing his side.

It's been determined he's not the guy screaming on the phone.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:09 PM
And so can Zimmerman. Which makes the experts report circumstantial at best. But Zimmerman has eyewitness accounts backing his side.

Excellent posts. And here's a quote that first gave me skepticism about the whole thing:

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

phinfan3411
04-01-2012, 06:11 PM
I don't know, I think we need to look at everything, but you can't take one side and run with it, and it only.

OJ Simpson was supposedly "guilty" too, but the Juice ended up running through the prosecution like he ran through defenses in the NFL. He told his side of the story, and it checked out.

I do wonder what the outrage would have been if it had been a black guy that shot a white kid, under the same circumstances. I'm sure the reactions of people who are defending Zimmerman now would probably be the opposite. The ones defending Zimmerman would probably turn into an all-out lynch mob if he had been black. I'm pretty sure some crazed gun nut would have capped the dude already.

It's all race in this. Nothing more. Because a white guy shot a black kid in a gated community, after stalking him, he's looked at as the "victim" (in Zimmerman's case), but if the shoe had been on the other foot, and it had been a black guy that stalked a white kid, then shot him and claimed "self defense", you'd have had an OJ-style outrage from whitebread America, all wanting a piece of him. Just like OJ. If Nicole Brown had been black, I don't know that you'd have seen 1/10th of the outrage that you saw in that case.

Are you being serious here, or being sarcastic?

I think a good number of black people will even admit he's guilty.

There is racism in this country, but everywhere it is discussed, it is only thought of as being a one way street, this is BS.

It was posted here before, and it was from the department of justice website, when you look into interracial violent crime, i believe ~ 8 to of 10 (maybe 9,can't remember) the white person is the victim.

Those numbers are staggering by themselves, but when you add it to the population disparity between the two races it REALLY looks bad.

This case is in the news 100% because of race, if Zimmerman were black, hell if he didn't have that name, there would be NO coverage.

I may be overstating this, but the number 1 killer of young black men, is other black men, but that does not get on the news very often.

Are you familiar with the murders of Channon Christian, and Christopher Newsome? I will bet most are not, and that may just be another clue as to how the MSM works, make sure you look into all the gory details, imo, that case should have been a bigger national news case than this one is, but it was not, could you tell me why?

By the way, if it is proven that Martin was the one screaming for help, i say fry Zimmerman, the only "side" i cheer for is the truth, if he killed that kid while he was screaming for help, the chair is fine by me.


Edited,

Can you show me where some white "gun nut" as you stated "capped" any one of the animals in the murder above?

How does that theory coincide with the DOJ statistics i referenced??

I feel you are way off

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:13 PM
I'm just saying, if Zimmerman were black, and Martin were white, there wouldn't be gun groups putting a fund together for his defense.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:14 PM
It's been determined he's not the guy screaming on the phone.

Haven't we already established how flimsy the audio analysis is as evidence?

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:18 PM
You can't have it both ways.

You can't use it as "good evidence" for helping Zimmerman's case, and then say that it's "skewed" when experts have concluded it's not Zimmerman on the phone.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 06:22 PM
It's been determined he's not the guy screaming on the phone.


By those guys. And soon experts will come out with opposite results. In the end it's circumstantial evidence at best. People do scream different than they talk. Especially those that have a genuine fear of trouble or death. But in the end Zimmerman is the one with eyewitness accounts backing his story that he was on the ground screaming.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:27 PM
I really don't think any of us are going to agree on anything here. We're in a glorified pissing contest.

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 06:27 PM
Excellent posts. And here's a quote that first gave me skepticism about the whole thing:

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story


Or Zimmerman screams like a girl. I wonder why that didn't factor into the equation?

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 06:29 PM
I really don't think any of us are going to agree on anything here. We're in a glorified pissing contest.

Reminds me of our last big debate. LOL.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:30 PM
Yep. Pretty much.

At least no one's losing their **** yet.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:36 PM
You can't have it both ways.

You can't use it as "good evidence" for helping Zimmerman's case, and then say that it's "skewed" when experts have concluded it's not Zimmerman on the phone.

Of course I can, the article we're disputing is the case AGAINST Zimmerman. The Chicago Tribune article has been debunked.

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:38 PM
By who, you?

CedarPhin
04-01-2012, 06:40 PM
You can't say it's great evidence for Zimmerman, while saying it's sketch evidence for Martin's side.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:45 PM
By who, you?

More Dolphins9954 than anyone. But it was a joint effort.

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 06:46 PM
He probably would have been in a feisty mood, however there's no evidence of cocaine use with him, so I don't know why you'd bring that up, it has nothing to do at hand. Weed was brought up because it had been alleged that he was tossed from school for some MJ use.

My original query came from me asking about an autopsy and what might show up on a toxicology. I merely mentioned a drug that has the exact opposite high effect as MJ. We are both playing devils advocate here. You are saying that if he were on weed he wouldn't be able to fight, but if he was on coke he would have been the energizer bunny.


Are you trying to insinuate that Afro-American teens resort to cocaine use? Not quite seeing what you're getting at here.

Of course not. Why do you keep skirting the issue by bringing in race?

Regarding one's ability to fight while high on weed. If it does turn out that Trayvon was high on Marijuana it wouldn't matter from the perspective that it was Zimmerman who sustained the more serious battle wounds.

The reason drugs were brought up in the first place (from a toxicology) was to give credibility to Zimmerman's suspicions (about Trayvon appearing to be high).

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:47 PM
You can't say it's great evidence for Zimmerman, while saying it's sketch evidence for Martin's side.

Not by itself. But the biggest thing the 'anti-Zimmerman' side had was the "scientific evidence". Between the low-res video (as opposed to witness reports) and the lack of credibility from the audio analysis, it's pretty clear there's more evidence to support Zimmerman than the other way around.

Breed
04-01-2012, 06:58 PM
For those following, here's how the Chicago Tribune article was debunked.

1. Their "experts" claim this: "It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say"
2. Their reasoning is this: The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.
"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.
3. Why it doesn't work: "I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."
See the videos of men screaming like girls starting on page 17.

This invalidates everything in the article.

phinfan3411
04-01-2012, 06:58 PM
I'm just saying, if Zimmerman were black, and Martin were white, there wouldn't be gun groups putting a fund together for his defense.

Just so this white "gun guy" can get this straight, hispanic guys are ok, but black guys are still a no go?

I "believe" "gun guys" interest in this case is very much attributed to the possible retribution the "stand your ground" law may receive, but hell, what do i know, it's probably because they hate blacks.:rolleyes:

One more for the racism issue on this case, the KKK (much like the new black panthers) rallied in Tenn for the murder case i referenced (much like the new black panthers).

There was one difference though, they were met with a much BIGGER rally AGAINST them, with many of the participants wearing clown suits (because the KKK is a joke), i looked for the anti black panther rally, maybe i missed it, but i did not see it.

Carry on with your agenda...

Clipse
04-01-2012, 08:33 PM
Those "expert" claims really mean nothing since we'll get more "experts" claiming that's Zimmerman's voice within the next week I'm sure. The audio is not very telling either way.

Clipse
04-01-2012, 08:34 PM
For those following, here's how the Chicago Tribune article was debunked.

1. Their "experts" claim this: "It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say"
2. Their reasoning is this: The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.
"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.
3. Why it doesn't work: "I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."
See the videos of men screaming like girls starting on page 17.

This invalidates everything in the article.

If true, that's pretty much of a load of horse **** by said "experts".

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 09:36 PM
Imagine the trial. It's going to be bigger than the Casey Anthony circus that's for sure. With a touch of Helter Skelter race wars mixed in. The media and politicians are going to have a field day distracting us from the real issues with this one. Which is why I think he's going to trial regardless. Though I do believe he would probably get off with the current evidence available. I just don't see 'beyond reasonable doubt' right now. But there is still plenty of evidence that we haven't seen yet as well. I would love to see some medical reports and photo evidence that's for sure.

Locke
04-01-2012, 10:21 PM
Wow. Just wow. I'm literally reading internet scientists "debunking" real scientific evidence. Just when I thought I'd seen it all...

Breed
04-01-2012, 10:27 PM
Wow. Just wow. I'm literally reading internet scientists "debunking" real scientific evidence. Just when I thought I'd seen it all...

Nice rebuttal. How exactly does the article have any merit? So they're "experts". Fantastic. They were caught in a contradiction that invalidates their entire argument.

Locke
04-01-2012, 10:30 PM
You've either never been in a fight, or have never been in a position that Zimmerman was described as being in. If the broken nose didn't stun you, the collision with the sidewalk would. From that point, it's a matter of fighting with someone that 'has the high ground.' It is very difficult to deal any damage if your back is on the ground (and that's even if you haven't been stunned by a broken nose or a forceful collision with the ground/sidewalk)

If you're too disoriented to fight back, which means your body is not acting on instinct, then you are damn well too disoriented to pull a gun. Before you try to argue, because I know you will, you would be implying that the brain is unable to process a preconscious behavior, but is able to cognitively assess the situation, and decide to draw a gun. It would be the same thing as forgetting to breathe, but have the ability to do a math problem at the same time. It simply isn't possible. There are too many inconsistencies in his story to make sense...

Locke
04-01-2012, 10:31 PM
Nice rebuttal. How exactly does the article have any merit? So they're "experts". Fantastic. They were caught in a contradiction that invalidates their entire argument.

What contradiction? There are no contradictions, just things you want to see. I don't know if Zimmerman is your uncle or what, but this is ridiculous...

NamathDrunkLove
04-01-2012, 10:42 PM
What contradiction? There are no contradictions, just things you want to see.I don't know if Zimmerman is your uncle or what, but this is ridiculous...

I refuse to believe that anyone can be this ignorant. Are you serious!?

Locke
04-01-2012, 10:56 PM
I refuse to believe that anyone can be this ignorant. Are you serious!?

I read that entire article and found no contradiction. If people want to pull out their play-dough CSI kits and find their own contradictions that way, that's on them. However, they shouldn't be surprised when people call them out on it. Now please, excuse my ignorance and explain the contradiction. Don't post youtube videos of dudes screaming in haunted houses and expect that to pass as a contradiction. If that's what everyone is talking about, then people don't understand the science that they are trying to discredit. You would be implying that someone who changes the pitch of their voice on the phone would then be able to fool every single forensic criminologist in the country, which we know isn't true.

So please, explain my ignorance, because it really seems to me that that there is indeed an ignorant person in this conversation, but probably not the one being accused...

Dolphins9954
04-01-2012, 11:29 PM
The point is that a lot of people do sound different when yelling and screaming especially when scared. The pitch can change dramatically no matter who it is. The defense will just put up experts that counter these experts because you can make this case very easily. It's all circumstantial evidence at best. The only difference would be that the defense will have 2 eyewitness to back up their claim that it's Zimmerman yelling for help.

Locke
04-02-2012, 12:37 AM
The point is that a lot of people do sound different when yelling and screaming especially when scared. The pitch can change dramatically no matter who it is. The defense will just put up experts that counter these experts because you can make this case very easily. It's all circumstantial evidence at best. The only difference would be that the defense will have 2 eyewitness to back up their claim that it's Zimmerman yelling for help.

We'll see if that's the case. If we don't have something by the end of the week, then I don't think it's coming at all. Witnesses can be discredited as well, with false memories being an issue in high-profile cases. I think both people were equally at fault, and this entire thing could have been prevented if either one of them did even a single thing different. I just don't get how people are sitting here trying to paint Zimmerman as this hero and Martin as this menace to society. It's ridiculous, and it's just further reflection on how our society has turned into this hyper-polarized ****-storm of a nation...

WSE
04-02-2012, 01:30 AM
from the very beginning Martin's parents have been steadfast that is their son's voice on the recording, with the father reportedly crying the first time he heard it due to his son crying out for help before he died

now, there is some evidence that backs that up. Just like some evidence on the other side backing up what Zimmerman said. Though Zimmerman's involve eye witnesses which are the epitome of human error

PhinzN703
04-02-2012, 02:03 AM
I really don't think any of us are going to agree on anything here. We're in a glorified pissing contest.

True. And it's sad to even be having a conversation about a teenager who may have had his whole life ahead of time that was prematurely killed.

MarshallFin1
04-02-2012, 08:11 AM
Its good to see finheaven members actually discussing this in a civil manner, on other places i have seen its a very heated nasty debate, good too see finheaven members do it a good civil manner.

After reading a good article on this posted by yahoo, one thing that stuck out to me was hearing out both stories. trayvon martin girlfriend says that she heard martin and zimmerman have a brief discussion before the scuffle started and the phone hung up, martin asked zimmerman "why are you following me" and zim replied with "what are you doing here" and than something interrupted trayvon voice and the phone call hung up according to trayvons girlfriend. If they can prove trayvons girlfriends story i think its a key part in this hole thing because if her story checks out to be true, zimmermans story will prove he is lying because in zimmermans story its just Trayvon sneakin up behind him and attacking him, than the nasty fight breaks out, in zimmermans story there was no Discussion of any sort.

Another thing was that zimmerman was following this kid in a car before he got on foot, this kid was running according to his girlfriend and zimmerman 911 call, by the time zimmerman caught up to this kid trayvon had to be out of breath and gasping for air, and also very scared that a stranger had not only been following him but also caught up to him and is now confronting him. I just dont believe trayvon had any energy to do any type of damage to a grown man who outweights by 100 pounds when he is gasping for air at that point. I wont rush to judge on what happened that night but i dont believe anything the neighborhood watchman is saying at all.

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 08:40 AM
We'll see if that's the case. If we don't have something by the end of the week, then I don't think it's coming at all. Witnesses can be discredited as well, with false memories being an issue in high-profile cases. I think both people were equally at fault, and this entire thing could have been prevented if either one of them did even a single thing different. I just don't get how people are sitting here trying to paint Zimmerman as this hero and Martin as this menace to society. It's ridiculous, and it's just further reflection on how our society has turned into this hyper-polarized ****-storm of a nation...

Blame the media and politicians for that one. This is the likely scenario in a trial. The prosecution will put up experts who say it's Trayvon on the tape with family members and friends saying it's him too. Then the defense will put up experts saying it's Zimmerman on the tape with family and friends saying it's him too. Along with 2 random eyewitness accounts and physical evidence ie. grass stains on the back of his shirt, a police report saying he was bleeding from the back of the head and had a wet back . Now the extent of injury is definitely in question but eventually medical reports and photo evidence will be the defining factor on this issue. The truth in the matter is that Zimmerman will have a compelling case to make with evidence to back it up. Compare the 2 sides and Zimmerman does have more evidence on his side when it comes to who was on the ground yelling for help. Now there is still plenty we haven't seen yet that the State hasn't released. Evidence that will clear this up a lot better than now. But for me being as objective as I can be don't see the evidence to get a "beyond reasonable doubt" conviction. Hence the reason Zimmerman is not in jail right now because the State felt the exact same way too. But all that can change with more evidence as the process plays out.

One more thing. If it really was Trayvon on the ground yelling for help then there should be some physical evidence like grass stains on the back of his shirt or a wet back. Because so far it's Zimmerman that has that physical evidence on his clothes.

MarshallFin1
04-02-2012, 09:02 AM
Blame the media and politicians for that one. This is the likely scenario in a trial. The prosecution will put up experts who say it's Trayvon on the tape with family members and friends saying it's him too. Then the defense will put up experts saying it's Zimmerman on the tape with family and friends saying it's him too. Along with 2 random eyewitness accounts and physical evidence ie. grass stains on the back of his shirt, a police report saying he was bleeding from the back of the head and had a wet back . Now the extent of injury is definitely in question but eventually medical reports and photo evidence will be the defining factor on this issue. The truth in the matter is that Zimmerman will have a compelling case to make with evidence to back it up. Compare the 2 sides and Zimmerman does have more evidence on his side when it comes to who was on the ground yelling for help. Now there is still plenty we haven't seen yet that the State hasn't released. Evidence that will clear this up a lot better than now. But for me being as objective as I can be don't see the evidence to get a "beyond reasonable doubt" conviction. Hence the reason Zimmerman is not in jail right now because the State felt the exact same way too. But all that can change with more evidence as the process plays out.

One more thing. If it really was Trayvon on the ground yelling for help then there should be some physical evidence like grass stains on the back of his shirt or a wet back. Because so far it's Zimmerman that has that physical evidence on his clothes.

why do ppl wanna always blame the media for everything? what ppl say comes from there own mouth, not the medias.

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 09:10 AM
Its good to see finheaven members actually discussing this in a civil manner, on other places i have seen its a very heated nasty debate, good too see finheaven members do it a good civil manner.

After reading a good article on this posted by yahoo, one thing that stuck out to me was hearing out both stories. trayvon martin girlfriend says that she heard martin and zimmerman have a brief discussion before the scuffle started and the phone hung up, martin asked zimmerman "why are you following me" and zim replied with "what are you doing here" and than something interrupted trayvon voice and the phone call hung up according to trayvons girlfriend. If they can prove trayvons girlfriends story i think its a key part in this hole thing because if her story checks out to be true, zimmermans story will prove he is lying because in zimmermans story its just Trayvon sneakin up behind him and attacking him, than the nasty fight breaks out, in zimmermans story there was no Discussion of any sort.

Another thing was that zimmerman was following this kid in a car before he got on foot, this kid was running according to his girlfriend and zimmerman 911 call, by the time zimmerman caught up to this kid trayvon had to be out of breath and gasping for air, and also very scared that a stranger had not only been following him but also caught up to him and is now confronting him. I just dont believe trayvon had any energy to do any type of damage to a grown man who outweights by 100 pounds when he is gasping for air at that point. I wont rush to judge on what happened that night but i dont believe anything the neighborhood watchman is saying at all.


Depends how far he ran. Let's not forget that 17yr olds have great amount of energy and vitality. And from all accounts Trayvon was in good shape. The only thing that concerns me with the girlfriend is that she supposedly waited 3 weeks to come out with this info. That's a long time to withhold a key piece of evidence. Though phone records do show Trayvon did talk to his girlfriend that day. I wonder what exactly are the times of those calls compared to the time of the incident.

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 09:16 AM
why do ppl wanna always blame the media for everything? what ppl say comes from there own mouth, not the medias.

The coverage of this story has probably been the most irresponsible, unprofessional piece of news work I've ever seen. Filled with loads of demagoguery to get the most divisive results possible. And the politicians and opportunists exploited this tragedy to the fullest extent.

MarshallFin1
04-02-2012, 09:38 AM
Depends how far he ran. Let's not forget that 17yr olds have great amount of energy and vitality. And from all accounts Trayvon was in good shape. The only thing that concerns me with the girlfriend is that she supposedly waited 3 weeks to come out with this info. That's a long time to withhold a key piece of evidence. Though phone records do show Trayvon did talk to his girlfriend that day. I wonder what exactly are the times of those calls compared to the time of the incident.

probably because she was in a bad state of mind for awhile and also her parents dont want her even showing her face or name in all this, they im sure were hard to convince to let this girl even say anything. Reguardless though, phone records should show if they spoke.

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 09:57 AM
probably because she was in a bad state of mind for awhile and also her parents dont want her even showing her face or name in all this, they im sure were hard to convince to let this girl even say anything. Reguardless though, phone records should show if they spoke.

People do go into shock and everyone does handle things differently. Though if it was me and I felt my significant other was murdered I would do all I can to get whatever info I had to the police. I want to see the phone records on this matter before coming to a total conclusion though.

Locke
04-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Depends how far he ran. Let's not forget that 17yr olds have great amount of energy and vitality. And from all accounts Trayvon was in good shape. The only thing that concerns me with the girlfriend is that she supposedly waited 3 weeks to come out with this info. That's a long time to withhold a key piece of evidence. Though phone records do show Trayvon did talk to his girlfriend that day. I wonder what exactly are the times of those calls compared to the time of the incident.

Well, at least this is a question that's easily answered. If Martin and his girlfriend were members of a lower socioeconomic population, and lived in a poor neighborhood, which I can't find any clarification on, it's a cultural thing to shut your mouth and not talk to police. There have been dozens of studies about how in primarily African-American communities, someone will get killed, yet miraculously, apparently no one saw or heard anything, regardless of if they were involved or not. If she is black too, which she probably is, and if they were poor, which they probably were, then is makes perfect sense that it took a while for her to come forward with this evidence...

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 12:10 PM
Well, at least this is a question that's easily answered. If Martin and his girlfriend were members of a lower socioeconomic population, and lived in a poor neighborhood, which I can't find any clarification on, it's a cultural thing to shut your mouth and not talk to police. There have been dozens of studies about how in primarily African-American communities, someone will get killed, yet miraculously, apparently no one saw or heard anything, regardless of if they were involved or not. If she is black too, which she probably is, and if they were poor, which they probably were, then is makes perfect sense that it took a while for her to come forward with this evidence...

"Snitches get Stitches" though this really isn't snitching. A lot of that has to do with crime and gang related things. If they "snitch" they could get hurt or killed by ratting out. So many choose to not get involved or play dumb. This is different than that because it's not snitching but supplying a side to a story that really should have been brought up immediately. I haven't seen the phone records but would love too. That will be the evidence to really look at to get the best conclusion. From what time the call was made to when it ended. How long the call was? What time Zimmerman called the police? 911 calls from neighbors and eyewitnesses. There's a whole lot we don't know.

SkapePhin
04-02-2012, 12:15 PM
I haven't read anything in this thread, but my 2 cents on the Trayvon case.

I see a lot of people out there trying to somehow blame the kid for causing his own death. The fact is, the Stand Your Ground law is ridiculous. It creates a Wild West mentality - a mentality that is not suitable to modern society. Shoot first, ask questions later.

George Zimmerman defied orders from authorities to not pursue the suspect. He was right to originally call the police, but it should have ended there. He should have allowed the cops to do their jobs. Instead, he wanted to play hero, and that moment of egoistic bravado ended in the death of a young kid. Unfortunately, young black males do get profiled, especially if they are wearing a certain kind of fashion. That's just reality. But that gives noone the right to track them down and shoot them dead.

George Zimmerman should be put through the legal process to prove that he was indeed acting in self defense. And the Stand Your Ground law should be repealed immediately.

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 12:18 PM
I haven't read anything in this thread, but my 2 cents on the Trayvon case.

I see a lot of people out there trying to somehow blame the kid for causing his own death. The fact is, the Stand Your Ground law is ridiculous. It creates a Wild West mentality - a mentality that is not suitable to modern society. Shoot first, ask questions later.

George Zimmerman defied orders from authorities to not pursue the suspect. He was right to originally call the police, but it should have ended there. He should have allowed the cops to do their jobs. Instead, he wanted to play hero, and that moment of egoistic bravado ended in the death of a young kid. Unfortunately, young black males do get profiled, especially if they are wearing a certain kind of fashion. That's just reality. But that gives noone the right to track them down and shoot them dead.

George Zimmerman should be put through the legal process to prove that he was indeed acting in self defense. And the Stand Your Ground law should be repealed immediately.

He would have died regardless of the stand your ground law.

SkapePhin
04-02-2012, 12:19 PM
He would have died regardless of the stand your ground law.

Ok, maybe. But his killer wouldn't be walking around free. There would be justice.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

Here is another instance where the Stand Your Ground law is impeding justice:
http://justiceforbrandonbaker.com/

Locke
04-02-2012, 12:22 PM
"Snitches get Stitches" though this really isn't snitching. A lot of that has to do with crime and gang related things. If they "snitch" they could get hurt or killed by ratting out. So many choose to not get involved or play dumb. This is different than that because it's not snitching but supplying a side to a story that really should have been brought up immediately. I haven't seen the phone records but would love too. That will be the evidence to really look at to get the best conclusion. From what time the call was made to when it ended. How long the call was? What time Zimmerman called the police? 911 calls from neighbors and eyewitnesses. There's a whole lot we don't know.

That's most likely where it started, but it has escalated to the point where police often times don't even bother asking around on anything except homicides and major investigations since no one talks to them. Different situation or not, you can be damn sure that this is the reason it took her so long to come forward. There's a name for the phenomenon in sociology, but I can't remember it off the top of my head...

Spesh
04-02-2012, 12:58 PM
why do ppl wanna always blame the media for everything? what ppl say comes from there own mouth, not the medias.

The media has been slanting stories to inflame people. NBC is launching a internal investigation because one of their shows apparently editted the Zimmerman/police phone coversation to make it sound like Zimmerman was racist. As we discussed earlier in this thread, ABC got the security footage of Zimmerman at the police station, then declared Zimmerman "uninjured" while using their logo to cover up his head injury.

Those sort of actions go beyond just "blaming the media". They have purposedly altered evidence to get people angry. Can click the link for what Zimmerman really said and other examples of the foul media coverage of this case.


NBC told the Washington Post that it has launched an internal investigation of the "Today" show's editorial process (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/nbc-to-do-internal-investigation-on-zimmerman-segment/2012/03/31/gIQAc4HhnS_blog.html?hpid=z6) after its morning show aired an edited conversation between George Zimmerman and a 911 dispatcher recorded moments before the shooting. The investigation came after Fox News and others pointed out that the network spliced two parts of the call together, making it appear as if Zimmerman had said, "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black." In reality, Zimmerman was answering a dispatcher's question:


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-case-exposes-worst-media-210020839.html

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 01:03 PM
Ok, maybe. But his killer wouldn't be walking around free. There would be justice.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

Here is another instance where the Stand Your Ground law is impeding justice:
http://justiceforbrandonbaker.com/


The 5th amendment along with eyewitness testimony and evidence on the ground has more to do with Zimmerman not being in jail right now. If it wasn't for that he would be in jail as we speak. The police wanted to arrest him but were basically forced not to due to the evidence supporting Zimmerman's story. IMO even without the stand your ground law everything would have went down the same way. The State didn't have the evidence to press charges. As more evidence comes in and the process plays out it he could go to jail. But for now the 5th amendment has prevailed.

As for the Brandon story it looks like a road rage incident gone wrong. I don't know anything about that case besides what you provided which is definitely one sides version of events. There's a lot more to that story.

SkapePhin
04-02-2012, 01:23 PM
The 5th amendment along with eyewitness testimony and evidence on the ground has more to do with Zimmerman not being in jail right now. If it wasn't for that he would be in jail as we speak. The police wanted to arrest him but were basically forced not to due to the evidence supporting Zimmerman's story. IMO even without the stand your ground law everything would have went down the same way. The State didn't have the evidence to press charges. As more evidence comes in and the process plays out it he could go to jail. But for now the 5th amendment has prevailed.

As for the Brandon story it looks like a road rage incident gone wrong. I don't know anything about that case besides what you provided which is definitely one sides version of events. There's a lot more to that story.

A road rage incident should never leave a person dead. The Stand Your Ground law makes it too easy for a guy with a gun to shoot a dude for almost ANY reason, as long as they feel "threatened". What the state defines as "threatened" is too broad. Lethal force should be reserved for cases where a person feels that they might end up dead if they don't act, not when a guy is just screaming at them.

As for Zimmerman, he pursued the guy, against orders from authorities. Imagine if you are Trayvon, being pursued by a strange man in the rain. I can also imagine a scenario where I would confront a guy chasing me in the rain. How would I know that this guy has a gun and is tracking me down because he thinks I am suspicious?

Eshlemon
04-02-2012, 02:34 PM
"Snitches get Stitches" though this really isn't snitching. A lot of that has to do with crime and gang related things. If they "snitch" they could get hurt or killed by ratting out. So many choose to not get involved or play dumb. This is different than that because it's not snitching but supplying a side to a story that really should have been brought up immediately. I haven't seen the phone records but would love too. That will be the evidence to really look at to get the best conclusion. From what time the call was made to when it ended. How long the call was? What time Zimmerman called the police? 911 calls from neighbors and eyewitnesses. There's a whole lot we don't know.


http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/326700/full-transcript-zimmerman.pdf


There is at least one transcript out there and this shows the much publicized Zimmerman defying orders...



Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

,,,if you leave out Zimmermans response to the dispatcher.


Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones]
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the
officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the
club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they
go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.

NamathDrunkLove
04-02-2012, 08:59 PM
I read that entire article and found no contradiction. If people want to pull out their play-dough CSI kits and find their own contradictions that way, that's on them. However, they shouldn't be surprised when people call them out on it. Now please, excuse my ignorance and explain the contradiction. Don't post youtube videos of dudes screaming in haunted houses and expect that to pass as a contradiction. If that's what everyone is talking about, then people don't understand the science that they are trying to discredit. You would be implying that someone who changes the pitch of their voice on the phone would then be able to fool every single forensic criminologist in the country, which we know isn't true.

So please, explain my ignorance, because it really seems to me that that there is indeed an ignorant person in this conversation, but probably not the one being accused...

Of course not. You just refuse to acknowledge it. There were two experts that had conclusions. One was:
"The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent. As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman. Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare."

He said it was within reasonable scientific certainty, but he also stressed that he didn't have Trayvon's voice to compare it with. It wasn't conclusive. If the trial were held today, the defense would have a field day with this. So much so that the prosecution wouldn't even bring it up. There is no voice to compare it to Trayvon's so it is circumstantial at best.

The second "expert's” conclusion wasn't even based on biometrics but an opinion:

"Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

Dolphins9954's posts of grown men screaming when frightened or excited proves that even a grown man can sound considerably different when put into an adrenaline pumping situation; thus invalidating the expert’s opinion (the contradiction). If I am playing with a play-dough CSI kit, then we are sharing the same kit. You are discrediting eye witness accounts in favor of a science that in this case has proved to be anything but conclusive. If it were just one eye witness account you might have a point. But to suggest that all of them up to this point were either, coerced, have a prejudice, or that 'they only think they know what they saw’ is just absurd. Unless one has short-term memory loss, a witness isn’t just going to forget an entire event. There may be minor details that get lost such as facial features, but it’s very unlikely that the average witness is going to confuse highly contrasting features, such as complexion (dark/light) and body type (bulky/thin).

Dolphins9954
04-02-2012, 10:00 PM
A road rage incident should never leave a person dead. The Stand Your Ground law makes it too easy for a guy with a gun to shoot a dude for almost ANY reason, as long as they feel "threatened". What the state defines as "threatened" is too broad. Lethal force should be reserved for cases where a person feels that they might end up dead if they don't act, not when a guy is just screaming at them.

As for Zimmerman, he pursued the guy, against orders from authorities. Imagine if you are Trayvon, being pursued by a strange man in the rain. I can also imagine a scenario where I would confront a guy chasing me in the rain. How would I know that this guy has a gun and is tracking me down because he thinks I am suspicious?


Road rage blamed in fatal shooting on Palm Harbor street



A 30-year-old man was shot to death in front of his twin brother in a road rage incident early Tuesday after three drivers stopped their cars and confronted one another, authorities said.
Investigators questioned the accused gunman at length Tuesday but did not press criminal charges against him. He told deputies that he acted in self-defense.

Deputies say Seth Browning, a 23-year-old security guard, shot Brandon Patrick Baker about 2:15 a.m. on Seagull Drive, an access road leading to large apartment complexes on the west side of East Lake Road just north of Tampa Road.

Baker, who died at the scene of the shooting, lived with his twin brother and his girlfriend in one of those complexes, Sabal Palms at Boot Ranch.
The Pinellas County Sheriff's Office gave the following account:

Shortly after 2 a.m., three vehicles were headed south on East Lake Road — one driven by Brandon Baker, the second by Seth Browning, and the third by Brandon's twin, Christopher Baker.

Browning told deputies that he had become concerned about Brandon Baker's driving. In an attempt to get his tag number, Browning followed him onto the frontage road. The third car followed the other two.

The vehicles came to a stop, and Brandon Baker got out of his Chevy pickup and aggressively approached Browning's car, deputies said. Browning responded by using pepper spray on Baker and his brother, who was also approaching Browning's car.

Deputies say Brandon Baker reached into Browning's vehicle and punched him, and he in turn pulled out his gun and shot Brandon Baker.

Browning called 911 and stayed at the scene until sheriff's deputies arrived. He wasn't on duty at the time, but he is authorized to carry a gun through his employer, the Sheriff's Office said.

Christopher Baker was not injured. A passenger in his car — Amy Marcellus, Brandon Baker's girlfriend — also was not injured. She remained inside the car during the incident, deputies said.

The Sheriff's Office investigation is ongoing.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/road-rage-blamed-in-fatal-shooting-on-palm-harbor-street/1218558


This is why it's so important to get ALL sides of the story. Had I just went by the link you provided. I wouldn't have even got close to the truth.

Dolphins9954
04-03-2012, 11:36 PM
I-O9MJQ9chQ


Flip Floppers.

PhinzN703
04-04-2012, 11:07 AM
why do ppl wanna always blame the media for everything? what ppl say comes from there own mouth, not the medias.

You're serious? I don't agree with what Zimmerman did but almost all of what I've seen in the media (sites, magazines) are painting Martin as the innocent kid here (he could be but there's two sides to it).

Then you have the racial angle when it's been said time and time again that Zimmerman isn't white (but the media won't tell you that).

PhinzN703
04-04-2012, 11:12 AM
Road rage blamed in fatal shooting on Palm Harbor street




http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/road-rage-blamed-in-fatal-shooting-on-palm-harbor-street/1218558


This is why it's so important to get ALL sides of the story. Had I just went by the link you provided. I wouldn't have even got close to the truth.



People are ****ing animals. I'm almost glad I don't have kids right now b/c I couldn't bare to have them fall victim to the violence you see in every day life.

Dolphins9954
04-05-2012, 11:17 AM
People are ****ing animals. I'm almost glad I don't have kids right now b/c I couldn't bare to have them fall victim to the violence you see in every day life.

That's why I teach my kids not to start fights, mind your own business and a ton of self-defense techniques.

MarshallFin1
04-05-2012, 12:20 PM
That's why I teach my kids not to start fights, mind your own business and a ton of self-defense techniques.

what techniques can you teach me when someone is running after me with a gun? lol

Dolphins9954
04-05-2012, 12:30 PM
what techniques can you teach me when someone is running after me with a gun? lol

Call the police or run home. Then again the unedited 9-11 call along with the transcripts does suggest that Zimmerman stopped running and went back to his car.

Dolphins9954
04-05-2012, 04:47 PM
YOt1wEDy0SI


Sounds like "COLD" to me.

phinfan3411
04-05-2012, 05:50 PM
If i were to guess, i would say he was saying "cold" too.

I am almost certain he did not say what many seem to wish he said.

I also think that i read someplace that this is what Zimmerman said he said, you may also take into consideration that it WAS cold, for florida anyway.

Dolphins9954
04-05-2012, 05:58 PM
If i were to guess, i would say he was saying "cold" too.

I am almost certain he did not say what many seem to wish he said.

I also think that i read someplace that this is what Zimmerman said he said, you may also take into consideration that it WAS cold, for florida anyway.


It was my first thought when I heard it a while back. This new version only confirms it for me. And yes it was cold that day.

phinfan3411
04-05-2012, 06:04 PM
from the very beginning Martin's parents have been steadfast that is their son's voice on the recording, with the father reportedly crying the first time he heard it due to his son crying out for help before he died

now, there is some evidence that backs that up. Just like some evidence on the other side backing up what Zimmerman said. Though Zimmerman's involve eye witnesses which are the epitome of human error

I will attempt to call you out on this.

I feel you are showing your colors.

Are you attempting to push to the side two eyewitnesses for the "strength" of audio experts that did not even have audio of Martin to match?

I know you are going to be a lawyer, i am sure you know this stuff, but still you are doing your best to mislead.

Eyewitnesses are considered the number one piece of evidence in the legal community, but you are not willing to divulge that are you?

There is ONE area where eyewitnesses fall short, but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE.

In case you did not know, eyewitnesses tend to not be able to correctly identify faces during times of stress.

Did they identify the faces, or WHAT THE TWO WHERE WEARING (correctly) during the altercation?

Are eyewitnesses fairly reliable when relaying generic forms of clothing (red jacket, white hoodie) persons of interest are wearing??

From my research they most certainly are, and in this case there is no need to correctly identify who was in this altercation, we all know the two people, so please explain, and please, do not explain in absolutes, obviously there is some error, but unlikely in this case.

LANGER72
04-05-2012, 06:30 PM
I will attempt to call you out on this.

I feel you are showing your colors.

Are you attempting to push to the side two eyewitnesses for the "strength" of audio experts that did not even have audio of Martin to match?

I know you are going to be a lawyer, i am sure you know this stuff, but still you are doing your best to mislead.

Eyewitnesses are considered the number one piece of evidence in the legal community, but you are not willing to divulge that are you?

There is ONE area where eyewitnesses fall short, but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE.

In case you did not know, eyewitnesses tend to not be able to correctly identify faces during times of stress.

Did they identify the faces, or WHAT THE TWO WHERE WEARING (correctly) during the altercation?

Are eyewitnesses fairly reliable when relaying generic forms of clothing (red jacket, white hoodie) persons of interest are wearing??

From my research they most certainly are, and in this case there is no need to correctly identify who was in this altercation, we all know the two people, so please explain, and please, do not explain in absolutes, obviously there is some error, but unlikely in this case.

Nothing new has been reported other than the revealing distortions by the liberal media. At this point he looks like he is in the clear from criminal charges. The racist protestors and organizations will surely aid the family to trump up civil rights charges. The folks in the home owners association are probably running for the hills because they are going to pay.

MarshallFin1
04-05-2012, 07:36 PM
Nothing new has been reported other than the revealing distortions by the liberal media. At this point he looks like he is in the clear from criminal charges. The racist protestors and organizations will surely aid the family to trump up civil rights charges. The folks in the home owners association are probably running for the hills because they are going to pay.

everyone thinks hes in the clear but im sure there is alot of evidense that has not been released yet, i think its best to reserve judgement until the feds get done with there investigation. Even so, i dont understand how you can disobey a police official of following someone than claim self defense, its just a crazy situation.

Dolphins9954
04-05-2012, 07:46 PM
I will attempt to call you out on this.

I feel you are showing your colors.

Are you attempting to push to the side two eyewitnesses for the "strength" of audio experts that did not even have audio of Martin to match?

I know you are going to be a lawyer, i am sure you know this stuff, but still you are doing your best to mislead.

Eyewitnesses are considered the number one piece of evidence in the legal community, but you are not willing to divulge that are you?

There is ONE area where eyewitnesses fall short, but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE.

In case you did not know, eyewitnesses tend to not be able to correctly identify faces during times of stress.

Did they identify the faces, or WHAT THE TWO WHERE WEARING (correctly) during the altercation?

Are eyewitnesses fairly reliable when relaying generic forms of clothing (red jacket, white hoodie) persons of interest are wearing??

From my research they most certainly are, and in this case there is no need to correctly identify who was in this altercation, we all know the two people, so please explain, and please, do not explain in absolutes, obviously there is some error, but unlikely in this case.

One thing is for sure. 2 eyewitnesses do confirm that someone was on the ground yelling for help. They both say it was Zimmerman. According to the police report Zimmerman had grass stains on the back of his shirt along with his back being wet. Not to mention a wound to the back of his head. That's 3 pieces of evidence besides the 2 eyewitnesses that confirm at some point Zimmerman was on his back.