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View Full Version : Time to end the War On Drugs.



Dolphins9954
05-06-2012, 10:02 AM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/05/nlPNG-1.png



Bodies hung from bridge as 23 more die in Mexico drug war

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/05/bodies-bridge-23-mexico-drug

LANGER72
05-06-2012, 12:17 PM
I disagree. Just legalizing the drugs will not make those bad guys go away. Only bullets can do that.

jared81
05-06-2012, 12:29 PM
I disagree. Just legalizing the drugs will not make those bad guys go away. Only bullets can do that.


I disagree. While it won't make them go away. It will take a lot of their power and money, the kind it takes to have people do these awful things.

Dolphins9954
05-06-2012, 12:35 PM
I disagree. Just legalizing the drugs will not make those bad guys go away. Only bullets can do that.


It worked when we ended prohibition of alcohol. Most of those bad guys became legit business men hell the Kennedy's did alright for themselves. Just like the prohibition of alcohol created a violent black market so does the current prohibition of drugs. People will always do drugs no matter what. It's been happening since the begining of time and will continute till the end of time. Using bullets or force to combat drugs has been the policy for decades now. And the result has been millions in jail, billions upon billions spent, decimation of the 4th amendment and constitutional rights, an extremely violent black market where tens of thousands have been killed right on our border, while the flow and use of illegal drugs is alive and well in this country. In short it's been a total and epic failure. Time to change.

Dogbone34
05-06-2012, 12:57 PM
drug war is a total disaster

too bad the cool president is doubling down and the GOP is missing in action

Tetragrammaton
05-06-2012, 02:06 PM
I disagree. Just legalizing the drugs will not make those bad guys go away. Only bullets can do that.

Anheuser-Busch is not in the business of hanging the bodies of Budweiser employees off of bridges. Whether it is alcohol, heroin, or prostitution, legality reduces the crime level as businesses have less incentive to commit crimes.

LANGER72
05-06-2012, 04:26 PM
So, all of you see nothing wrong with legalizing drugs. You guys can carry weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, and what ever colored pill you like.
I hope they are never legalized. It is a scourge. Just unbelievable.
So you take the profit out of it and eliminate the black market...you think it won't have terrible unintended consequences?

rob19
05-06-2012, 04:57 PM
So, all of you see nothing wrong with legalizing drugs. You guys can carry weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, and what ever colored pill you like.
I hope they are never legalized. It is a scourge. Just unbelievable.
So you take the profit out of it and eliminate the black market...you think it won't have terrible unintended consequences?

You have a fundamental misunderstanding about the effectiveness of prohibition.
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2013/07/1301442087720-1.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3EBmiURgw

---------- Post added at 04:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EupRuxwuMLE

rob19
05-06-2012, 05:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6cd44i_xI&list=PLA43959448409DCDC&index=16&feature=plpp_video

I don't know how anyone could justify cannabis being illegal while alcohol and cigarettes are perfectly legal. Cig's alone have a yearly body count of 400,000 Americans, more than heroin, cocaine, meth, exstasy, & whatever else current illegal drug you can think of, COMBINED. They don't give two ****s about your health, wake up folks, it's not a war on drugs; it's a war on consciousness.

"We are infantilized, we are told; 'You can wander around within the sanctioned playpen of ordinary consciousness, and we have some intoxicants over here if you want to mess yourself up. We've got some scoth here, and some tobacco, and redmeat, and some sugar, and a little T.V, and so forth, and so on, but these boundary-desolving hallucinogens that give you a sense of unity with your fellow man and nature, are somehow forbidden? This is an outrage, it's a sign of cultural immaturity, and the fact that we tolerate it is a sign that we are living in a society as oppressed as any society in the past'." - Terence McKenna

rob19
05-06-2012, 05:38 PM
Mr Langer, have you ever wondered how it is that you dream? Are you familiar with a compound called Dimethyltryptamine? It's a naturally occurring psychedelic compound, it is produced by your pineal gland, which is located smack dab in the middle of your brain, and is sometimes referred to as your "third-eye", in reptiles, it even has a cornea, a retina, a lense, and is sensitive to light (it really is an eye). It's one of the most naturally occurring compounds in all of nature, and is easily synthesized due to it's molecular simplicity; you could probably extract some fairly simply from grass cuttings from your lawn with a fairly basic chemist set. Every single human possess, manufactures, and uses on a daily basis, the most psychedelic compound known to man; and that good sir, is why we dream.

Here's where it gets crazy... it's illegal. What? How could that be? How could a drug that every human makes and uses naturally on a daily basis and is responsible for human dreams be illegal??? Is it dangerous you ask? Why no actually, it's actually remarkably safe, it has an astronomically high LD50/50 rate, making overdosing literally impossible. So not only is it illegal, it's a schedule 1 narcotic, more illegal than heroin, cocaine, meth, so on and so forth, which are schedule 2. While less harmful, yet mind expanding drugs such as Dimethyltryptamine, Ayahuasca, LSD. Psilocybin, Cannabis, etc, are schedule 1.
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/05/Untitled-1.jpg

So, if I had to form a theory, based on my own edification, I'd have to say they aren't very concerned with your health at all, but rather are much more concerned about limiting and controlling your consciousness.

If your just learning now why it is that you dream, and are curious enough to continue learning about it as I was, I'll provide a couple links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcqs9cDuN8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4T5LduZ9vg&list=PLA43959448409DCDC&index=62&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eSsG2sDL1Gg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WuQTYazsLJA

rob19
05-06-2012, 05:44 PM
You want to know what I think they're really trying to prevent? A whole generation of people that have figured this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1dfGR9G768

A whole generation of people not consumed with fervent materialism in a capitalistic based economy.

Dolphins9954
05-06-2012, 07:00 PM
So, all of you see nothing wrong with legalizing drugs. You guys can carry weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, and what ever colored pill you like.
I hope they are never legalized. It is a scourge. Just unbelievable.
So you take the profit out of it and eliminate the black market...you think it won't have terrible unintended consequences?

It won't be any different than now with a bunch of people doped up on "legal" drugs like xanax, oxycontin and percocets. Which are just as bad or worse than herion or coke. The difference is the violence that comes from the black market will be dramatically reduce or eliminated. While we battle drug addiction and drug use like how we treat a sickness because that's really what it is. It's really not a crazy idea at all. For the overwhelming majority of our existence drugs have been legal throughout history. In fact the illegality of drugs is quite a new thing that has produce far more negative results. Especially when it comes to costs and liberties.

LANGER72
05-06-2012, 07:51 PM
Rob, I have read and enjoyed many of your posts in several different forums. You are extremely bright and apparently well educated.
I have studied chemistry, and human physiology years ago. I follow you. IMHO, you are an exception to the vast majority, enlightened..if I may, as opposed to the vast majority..if they used drugs, would bring themselves to ruin in a compulsive and addictive way. However, I believe we have a right to privacy.
I am torn about the freedom to use aspect because in my wisdom, they are millions that would suffer from addiction if the were allowed.
I wish it wasn't that way. I hope you see my point. I am not trying to start an argument for arguments sake, just presenting another side.

Tetragrammaton
05-06-2012, 07:52 PM
I guess you operate under the assumption that people don't do drugs because they are illegal. That really isn't the case, people break the law every day. If legalization was the norm, it would be easier to perform outreach to addicts and decrease the abuse.

LANGER72
05-06-2012, 07:55 PM
It won't be any different than now with a bunch of people doped up on "legal" drugs like xanax, oxycontin and percocets. Which are just as bad or worse than herion or coke. The difference is the violence that comes from the black market will be dramatically reduce or eliminated. While we battle drug addiction and drug use like how we treat a sickness because that's really what it is. It's really not a crazy idea at all. For the overwhelming majority of our existence drugs have been legal throughout history. In fact the illegality of drugs is quite a new thing that has produce far more negative results. Especially when it comes to costs and liberties.

I understand what you are saying, but I feel the the government will see the cash potential and basically take over for the cartels and small time dealers. Once they get used to the cash, they will have no real incentive to "treat the illness" of drug abuse. If anything it will give them greater control over the masses. A few science fiction flick's have been made exploring this theme.
I have no idea what would be the answer to this problem.

LANGER72
05-06-2012, 08:23 PM
I guess you operate under the assumption that people don't do drugs because they are illegal. That really isn't the case, people break the law every day. If legalization was the norm, it would be easier to perform outreach to addicts and decrease the abuse.


I operate with the assumption that they are illegal and bad for the human body when taken incorrectly or to excess.

Dolphins9954
05-06-2012, 08:30 PM
I guess you operate under the assumption that people don't do drugs because they are illegal. That really isn't the case, people break the law every day. If legalization was the norm, it would be easier to perform outreach to addicts and decrease the abuse.

I break the law at least twice a day. Especially in the morning.

Tetragrammaton
05-06-2012, 08:42 PM
I operate with the assumption that they are illegal and bad for the human body when taken incorrectly or to excess.

So is alcohol, tobacco, high fructose corn syrup, and so many other things. We can't regulate people's lives, it is against our principles as a society.

Tetragrammaton
05-06-2012, 08:46 PM
I break the law at least twice a day. Especially in the morning.

I have never tried a whole host of illegal drugs. It isn't fear of the police that stops me; I really doubt if I bought it the feds are going to jump out of the bushes. It is a fear of addiction and death, mostly drilled into me as a little kid.

Has anyone ever watched The Wire? A fictional show, yes, but it brought up some good points. In one season, a police commander decides to de-criminalize drugs in parts of Western Baltimore, known for high drug abuse. He is able to decrease the violence in turf fights and robberies, and over time social programs such as condom distribution, clean needle exchanges, and rehab outreach all begin to become more prevalent. As long as the drug business is underground, it is harder to reach and treat these people.

Dolphins9954
05-06-2012, 08:52 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I feel the the government will see the cash potential and basically take over for the cartels and small time dealers. Once they get used to the cash, they will have no real incentive to "treat the illness" of drug abuse. If anything it will give them greater control over the masses. A few science fiction flick's have been made exploring this theme.
I have no idea what would be the answer to this problem.

I understand what you're saying and it's 100% legitimate. At the same time we have to make sure that a change in our drug policy is based on treatment and actually helping people that suffer from drug addiction. Besides the norm of today of incarceration and force. Think about how much we spend in putting people in jail and prisons as opposed to the far cheaper rate of rehab and helping people with drug problems. The problem with the War On Drugs besides the cost and major loss of liberties not to mention the huge expansion of government into our lives. Is that it does nothing about helping people with the sickness they have.

LANGER72
05-06-2012, 09:48 PM
I understand what you're saying and it's 100% legitimate. At the same time we have to make sure that a change in our drug policy is based on treatment and actually helping people that suffer from drug addiction. Besides the norm of today of incarceration and force. Think about how much we spend in putting people in jail and prisons as opposed to the far cheaper rate of rehab and helping people with drug problems. The problem with the War On Drugs besides the cost and major loss of liberties not to mention the huge expansion of government into our lives. Is that it does nothing about helping people with the sickness they have.

The War on Drugs is defined many ways. I agree that putting people in prison simply for possessing small amounts of drugs is stupid, and expensive. The punishments should be of the slap of the wrist variety. The solution is just as bad as the problem.

Dolphins9954
05-06-2012, 09:49 PM
I have never tried a whole host of illegal drugs. It isn't fear of the police that stops me; I really doubt if I bought it the feds are going to jump out of the bushes. It is a fear of addiction and death, mostly drilled into me as a little kid.

Has anyone ever watched The Wire? A fictional show, yes, but it brought up some good points. In one season, a police commander decides to de-criminalize drugs in parts of Western Baltimore, known for high drug abuse. He is able to decrease the violence in turf fights and robberies, and over time social programs such as condom distribution, clean needle exchanges, and rehab outreach all begin to become more prevalent. As long as the drug business is underground, it is harder to reach and treat these people.

Smoking weed is the only "illegal" drug I do. I enjoy a good beer and some good smoke. In my life I've seen more people go down from addictions to legal drugs than anything. I'll check out that show for sure. Check out this video especially the last 20 seconds or so with Hudson.

kXraSkgssFk

rob19
05-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Rob, I have read and enjoyed many of your posts in several different forums. You are extremely bright and apparently well educated.
I have studied chemistry, and human physiology years ago. I follow you. IMHO, you are an exception to the vast majority, enlightened..if I may, as opposed to the vast majority..if they used drugs, would bring themselves to ruin in a compulsive and addictive way. However, I believe we have a right to privacy.
I am torn about the freedom to use aspect because in my wisdom, they are millions that would suffer from addiction if the were allowed.
I wish it wasn't that way. I hope you see my point. I am not trying to start an argument for arguments sake, just presenting another side.

First of all that's very nice of you to say. Here's what kills me, that I can't smoke a joint legally in my own home because other idiots ruined it for the rest of us. I feel the same way about gambling, I think it's a shame that you have a ton of people that would enjoy responsibly gambling in moderation, but you always have those guys that lose their house going in to debt that ruin it for the rest of the people. To me, it's an issue about what role you think Government should play in people's lives. Some drugs, gambling, and prostitution are all usually bad for the partaker, but do you believe the Government should play the role of Nanny & protect us from ourselves? I don't, in the same way that I think people should wear seatbelts, but there shouldn't be any seatbelt laws. It's very wise to wear a seatbelt, but it shouldn't be a law, that's not a role I think the government should play.

The United States has quite the inadequate drug education system. Most of the information emanating from the state concerning drugs is no longer believed. It's estimated that over 50 million Americans partake in regular cannabis use, that's roughly 1/6th of our 300 Million person population. If you add in the amount of people who've tried cannabis atleast once, your talking over half the country. Point is, you're not really having an effective drug war when 1/2 the American people have tried it, and I'd have to estimate that in this day and age, at least 70% of the people recognize that cannabis shouldn't have any criminal penalty attached to it. The fact that Cannabis is illegal, is the single greatest contributing factor to the distrust of information about drugs stemming from the Gov. "They lied to us about weed, so what else are they lying about?"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kda04Phzc54

I think as a society we have to grow up, we have to embrace the idea of actually educating these kids in-depth about drugs, rather than having a couple police officers come by and tell us "Drugs are bad, m'kay, don't do drugs, because their illegal, and you don't want to end up in prison". That is no longer satisfactory in terms of drug education & awareness. You really educate the youths, and make the user the single biggest fighter in the war on drugs. As far as health care reforms, in Portugal, where they've decriminalized all drugs, they've taken away any legal penalty associated with drug possession, and replaced it with an offer to go to therapy.


At the recommendation of a national commission charged with addressing Portugal's drug problem, jail time was replaced with the offer of therapy. The argument was that the fear of prison drives addicts underground and that incarceration is more expensive than treatment — so why not give drug addicts health services instead? Under Portugal's new regime, people found guilty of possessing small amounts of drugs are sent to a panel consisting of a psychologist, social worker and legal adviser for appropriate treatment (which may be refused without criminal punishment), instead of jail.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html#ixzz1u9KYOQUg



Five years later they checked to see how it was working

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoCcuW6cXwo

rob19
05-06-2012, 11:27 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I feel the the government will see the cash potential and basically take over for the cartels and small time dealers. Once they get used to the cash, they will have no real incentive to "treat the illness" of drug abuse. If anything it will give them greater control over the masses. A few science fiction flick's have been made exploring this theme.
I have no idea what would be the answer to this problem.

I also disagree with the basis of that premise, because firstly I don't think there's any evidence that supports that rates of consumption would increase based on legalization. In fact, when you look at the user base for a lot of really bad drugs, it's mostly underage kids. Before I turned 21, I had a way easier time finding weed than I did getting beer, because they carded me, friendly neighborhood drug dealers never carded me. I could be wrong but I believe something like 50% of the heroin base is younger than 21, crazy right? It seems to me that you might be able to prolong the amount of time before these adolescents are exposed to these compounds, possibly letting them grow more mature, and maybe avoiding the thing entirely.

Secondly, you might be able to "dope up" the people using some of the more opiate based drugs, and lul them to sleep, but not the psychedelic users, those are going to be the same type of people who protested the Vietnam war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Zkmmkb-aw

Thirdly, I'd conclude that the greatest tool in lulling and controlling the masses is prescription drugs. Zoloft, Paxil, Xanax, Cialis, Ambien, Adderal, Oxycontin, etc, and so forth. The biggest drug dealers in all America are on every street corner, pushing pills on you that most people don't need.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhJ2qo618n0

cmax13
05-11-2012, 10:21 AM
Anheuser-Busch is not in the business of hanging the bodies of Budweiser employees off of bridges. Whether it is alcohol, heroin, or prostitution, legality reduces the crime level as businesses have less incentive to commit crimes.

the reason they have less incentive to commit crimes is because they can go to a court and fight injustices (perceived or real) legally, where justice is dispensed. currently, justice is served at the end of a gun or noose in d9954's example.

cmax13
05-11-2012, 10:27 AM
So, all of you see nothing wrong with legalizing drugs. You guys can carry weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, and what ever colored pill you like.
I hope they are never legalized. It is a scourge. Just unbelievable.
So you take the profit out of it and eliminate the black market...you think it won't have terrible unintended consequences?

don't you think those "unintended consequences" happen now, with the widespread drug use in the usa?

how about if they used the massive amount of money, spent trying to fight the losing war, on helping people with the addiction problem. maybe if people could get some help, without being labeled a "druggie", there might be some recourse for those with problems.

as it stands now, you can't even ask for help with a drug problem at work, without the danger of losing your job. you can ask for help if you have an alcohol problem, but not a drug problem.

these days more people seem to have more of a problem with "legal" drugs, i think, than all illegal drugs combined.

cmax13
05-11-2012, 10:33 AM
I break the law at least twice a day. Especially in the morning.

wake and bake, my favorite time of the day!

cmax13
05-11-2012, 10:41 AM
I understand what you're saying and it's 100% legitimate. At the same time we have to make sure that a change in our drug policy is based on treatment and actually helping people that suffer from drug addiction. Besides the norm of today of incarceration and force. Think about how much we spend in putting people in jail and prisons as opposed to the far cheaper rate of rehab and helping people with drug problems. The problem with the War On Drugs besides the cost and major loss of liberties not to mention the huge expansion of government into our lives. Is that it does nothing about helping people with the sickness they have.

keeping drugs illegal helps keep most of the prison industrial complex employed. from law enforcement, incarceration and legal personnel a lot of these jobs are funded by your tax dollars. i think there are better ways to spend the billions spent of this stupid war.

spend the money on keeping violent criminals in jail, spend the money on helping those with problems. there are way better ways to keep civil order than fighting the "war on drugs".

cmax13
05-11-2012, 10:56 AM
First of all that's very nice of you to say. Here's what kills me, that I can't smoke a joint legally in my own home because other idiots ruined it for the rest of us. I feel the same way about gambling, I think it's a shame that you have a ton of people that would enjoy responsibly gambling in moderation, but you always have those guys that lose their house going in to debt that ruin it for the rest of the people. To me, it's an issue about what role you think Government should play in people's lives. Some drugs, gambling, and prostitution are all usually bad for the partaker, but do you believe the Government should play the role of Nanny & protect us from ourselves? I don't, in the same way that I think people should wear seatbelts, but there shouldn't be any seatbelt laws. It's very wise to wear a seatbelt, but it shouldn't be a law, that's not a role I think the government should play.

The United States has quite the inadequate drug education system. Most of the information emanating from the state concerning drugs is no longer believed. It's estimated that over 50 million Americans partake in regular cannabis use, that's roughly 1/6th of our 300 Million person population. If you add in the amount of people who've tried cannabis atleast once, your talking over half the country. Point is, you're not really having an effective drug war when 1/2 the American people have tried it, and I'd have to estimate that in this day and age, at least 70% of the people recognize that cannabis shouldn't have any criminal penalty attached to it. The fact that Cannabis is illegal, is the single greatest contributing factor to the distrust of information about drugs stemming from the Gov. "They lied to us about weed, so what else are they lying about?"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kda04Phzc54

I think as a society we have to grow up, we have to embrace the idea of actually educating these kids in-depth about drugs, rather than having a couple police officers come by and tell us "Drugs are bad, m'kay, don't do drugs, because their illegal, and you don't want to end up in prison". That is no longer satisfactory in terms of drug education & awareness. You really educate the youths, and make the user the single biggest fighter in the war on drugs. As far as health care reforms, in Portugal, where they've decriminalized all drugs, they've taken away any legal penalty associated with drug possession, and replaced it with an offer to go to therapy.




Five years later they checked to see how it was working



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoCcuW6cXwo


i agree 100% with what you're saying. i personally educated my kids, but the best thing i think i did for them is, i taught them about personal responsibility.

i don't care how much vodka you drink, i don't care how much cocaine you ingest, but when you run over my child with your car because you were drunk, when you drop the crane ball on my head because you shot too much heroin, you have crossed the line and violated my rights. that should be a crime, not simply the ingestion of some substance.

vote for personal responsibility and teach your children well, society would be a much better place.

---------- Post added at 10:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 AM ----------

wow, sorry i got here a little late, i guess i've created a whole page entry by myself.

i guess i get a little worked up over this subject.

CedarPhin
05-11-2012, 02:00 PM
kSB6vZ2KFRo

GoonBoss
05-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Didn't this administration tell us the border was safer now than ever?

ohall
05-11-2012, 04:47 PM
I think it's far better to legalize certain drugs, rather than trying to stop the flow of drugs into this country by sticking a finger into a leaking dam. The social implications IMO would be far less damaging than continuing to make the drug cartels billionaires.

All though legalizing certain drugs won't stop the drug cartles over night, IMO it will in time.

SkapePhin
05-11-2012, 05:03 PM
I was watching a show the other day where law enforcement in Tennessee had an entire unit with helicopters dedicated to tracking down marijuana crops in a wild mountain area. They spent millions of dollars and endless man-hours to destroy a couple trees of this mostly benign herb. What an epic waste of time and resources.

ohall
05-11-2012, 05:32 PM
I was watching a show the other day where law enforcement in Tennessee had an entire unit with helicopters dedicated to tracking down marijuana crops in a wild mountain area. They spent millions of dollars and endless man-hours to destroy a couple trees of this mostly benign herb. What an epic waste of time and resources.

Agreed to a point. As long as its the law of the land we have to do things like that. But without a doubt it would be far better if those resources could be used on fighting real crime.

CedarPhin
05-11-2012, 05:50 PM
I actually agree with the dude with the generic avatar on something for once.

ohall
05-11-2012, 06:29 PM
I actually agree with the dude with the generic avatar on something for once.

I have a name. It's far more of an effort to type what you typed rather then "ohall". Then again, it would be as insulting or baiting as your post was.