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ckparrothead
05-16-2012, 06:36 PM
The following are all based on tape viewing. I haven't reached the point of background checks, stat gathering, analysis of size and speed metrics, all that jazz. I'm just going off what I saw of these players on tape in 2011.

1. DE Bjoern Werner, Florida State
Comment: Underrated, probably because of German heritage and newness to the sport, which gives him a reputation for being "raw". I don't care what his back story is, watch him play football and he's a man amongst boys. He combines the kind of consistent gap control ability I saw out of Ryan Kerrigan with J.J. Watt type ball skills (tipped balls, even an interception) and the ability to explode off the line, get under a tackle's pads, and bend the arc. He had the only sack underrated Oklahoma tackle Donald Stephenson allowed in all of 2011. Long arms, great frame, powerful, fast, you name it, he has it. Fluid hands for neutralizing the hands of offensive tackles. There's definitely some rawness there but he's only a sophomore and from what I have seen the sky is the limit. He'll need to develop a little more endurance.

2. DE/OLB James Gayle, Virginia Tech
Comment: I never, ever, ever make this comparison. I can't even recall the last time I made it. However, this guy's style, not necessarily skill level, reminds me of Jason Taylor. I don't know his exact measurements, nor what his athletic measurements will end up, nor even his stats. This is all based on tape. He has great take-off ability, good counters, a deadly inside move, the ability to bend the arc, speed, and perhaps most importantly the ability to achieve all of this, including his take-off, either from an up or down position. Another guy with long arms that really avail him in pass rush. His consistent initial jump off the snap reminds me of what drew me so strongly to Jabaal Sheard a few years before he was drafted.

3a. OLB/DE Barkevious Mingo, LSU
Comment: By the time all is said and done, he may be the guy that rises to the top of the Draft at this position, but that doesn't mean he'll be the best in the NFL. I still rank the other two above him just because they strike me as better than him right now. His power and strength just really are not going to impress you at all, unlike some of the other guys on this list. However, what is going to get you consistently, is the fact that he moves like he's controlled by a joystick. There are some pretty good players on that defensive line and his movement skills put them to shame. He consistently gets off the snap quickest. He's not weak, he's actually pretty feisty and physical, and does a good job keeping his feet churning through contact. You don't see him losing a lot of strength matches. But you don't see him pushing through as much as you'd like when it comes to strength. Still, the potential is massive.

3b. OLB Jarvis Jones, Georgia
Comment: There's a part of me that actually wants to rate Jarvis above Barkevious Mingo because he's more fluid in his combination of hand and feet movements, a little more violent with his hands and quicker to get into dangerous counters which leave blockers grasping at air. However, there's something to be said for the dirty 'p' word, potential. Jones is a lot smaller than Mingo and so Mingo's ceiling is probably higher. That doesn't keep Jarvis from ending up a damn good player, though. He's also not quite as quick off the ball as Mingo and one reason I wouldn't have him above Gayle is because I think Gayle is a more dangerous pass rusher from an up position, gets off the ball and into his speed rush better.

5. DE/OLB Alex Okafor, Texas
Comment: Okafor is clearly the better pass rusher on his defense compared with Jackson Jeffcoat. It is not even close. He does not rate as high as the guys above him because I don't think he moves quite as quickly off the ball as the guys above. However, he does consistently show the ability to bend the arc and get underneath the blocker to come back to the quarterback, and he's also more polished than some of these guys and has a full array of moves. I like him.

6. DE William Gholston, Michigan State
Comment: I have seen suggestions that Gholston is overrated. I would like to see another year before I come to that conclusion because what I see of him is an extremely well built, brutishly strong player with explosive qualities. When he gets to the ball, he swallows it and he's a mean S.O.B. He is not a guy that consistently bends the outside, which is why I don't have him higher right now, but he can get to the quarterback through an array of moves and he's always a pain in the butt for whoever tries to block him.

7. DE/OLB Cory Lemonier, Auburn
Comment: Lemonier is built like a Ferrari. Great length and frame, really good take-off from the snap, hands connect well and shed, strong player that can get off blocks and make plays. The reason he's not rated better is he consistently paddle steps around the edge and can't really bend and get under a blocker to execute a proper edge rush. It could be something that develops.

8. DE Sam Montgomery, LSU
Comment: There are times you're watching Sam Montgomery and he is showing you the things that Barkevious Mingo is missing, and then there are times you're watching Barkevious Mingo and seeing the things Sam Montgomery is missing. He doesn't rate higher because he's consistently slow off the snap before he gets into his rush. He explodes in bursts, but he takes a while to gather himself before he explodes into his second and third bursts. He does not have great balance and I didn't see him consistently bend the arc. There are elite qualities to his game, the dangerous 'p' word, however he's in MUCH more danger of ending up "just a guy" than a Barkevious Mingo, who will always possess that god-given Cam Wake type joystick movement and explosiveness.

9. DE/OLB Brandon Jenkins, Florida State
Comment: Jenkins has pretty good take-off ability and his 2nd and 3rd steps don't let him down, so he has the ability to pass rush around the edge. He is not consistently strong and flexible bending the arc when challenged heavily, however. His natural athleticism helps him make hustle plays, but then you don't really see him hustling so it's kind of one step forward, one step back. His speed might be overrated. Hand use is definitely very inconsistent. Shows timely play recognition and gives good strong effort when blocked for the run game. He just doesn't hustle to the ball as well as you'd hope when the play goes by and he's not blocked any more. Good spin move.

10. DE/DT Margus Hunt, Southern Methodist
Comment: Margus is an incredible athlete with ridiculous size, speed, strength and explosiveness elements. The problem is, what do you do with him? He's blocked more kicks than I've ever even heard of but on the field you're wondering if he's sort of a poor man's Jared Odrick. He's not nearly flexible enough in my opinion to pass rush from the edge of the formation when you need pass rush. You will have to reduce him inside to rush the passer over a guard. That leaves you putting him at end on first and second down primarily as a run stopper, where he's not all that instinctive or impactful. It's like trying to put together a puzzle with a missing piece.

11. DE Jackson Jeffcoat, Texas
Comment: I'm given the impression from some of my fellow draftniks that I'm supposed to actually like Jackson Jeffcoat, but I'm really not sure why. I don't know his stats but I am sure he has collected some sacks off the good work that Alex Okafor and some others on the Texas defensive line (including our own Kheeston Randall) did for him. He reminds me a little bit of a cross between this year's Boise State defensive end Tyrone Crawford, and the old Arizona pass rusher Ricky Elmore. Actually scratch the Crawford comparison, he mainly reminds me of Elmore, which isn't a good thing. He has some athletic ability and some take-off from the line, but he doesn't put together the full package and was in my opinion conisistenty shown up by his teammate Okafor.

12. DE Michael Buchanan, Illinois
Comment: I am also given the impression that I am supposed to like Whitney Mercilus' linemate, Michael Buchanan. Maybe it's the scheme because I did not like Mercilus and I sure do not like Buchanan. He has some movement ability and he is built nicely, however I found that he doesn't really earn anything he does. He's just too easily blocked. Not enough speed, not enough explosion, not enough physicality, not enough flexibility. The reality is I probably would not even have him ranked in the top 12 by draft day, however I am given the impression he is supposed to be a top prospect, and so I felt I should address him.

TedSlimmJr
05-16-2012, 07:04 PM
Michael Buchanan is nowhere close to a top 10-12 defensive end in this class, so you're on the right track there.

Tenarius Wright (Arkansas), Devin Taylor (South Carolina), Cornelius Carradine (Florida St.), Dion Jordan (Oregon), Damion Square (Alabama), Stansly Maponga (TCU), Sean Porter (Texas A&M), Walter Stewart (Cincinnati), Aaron Donald (Pittsburgh), Roosevelt Nix (Kent St.), and Jamie Collins (Southern Miss) are all better prospects.

For all the hype that the two ends for FSU get (Werner and Jenkins), Carradine might be better than both of 'em.


You make some good observations regarding Mingo and Montgomery. Mingo has the highest ceiling in the class, but it will be standing up in the NFL. Montgomery has more power to his game and sets the edge better, but doesn't quite have the upside Mingo brings. They complement each other well, as they both have different strengths and weaknesses.


Lemonier is probably the next guy in terms of upside. He's hell to block.



Margus Hunt's height works against him inside... he'll struggle to maintain leverage, particularly if he were playing in a conference where offensive lineman are playing more from a 3-point stance. Reducing him down on occasion might work, but he's best suited as a 5-tech.


By the way, Alabama has another one ready to break out at the 'jack' position by the name of Adrian Hubbard. A bigger Mingo is essentially what he is.

ckparrothead
05-16-2012, 07:18 PM
I'm surprised you think Werner gets a lot of hype. Personally I don't see enough out there about him. I hear instead too much about Brandon Jenkins who this time next year could be a 4th or 5th round pick for all we know.

I see real strong potential in Werner and Gayle, particularly. Mingo as well well, but I wonder if he's ever going to be a player that is strong from his core.

TedSlimmJr
05-16-2012, 07:26 PM
Werner is a fine player, my point was that Carradine might be the better NFL prospect than either him or Jenkins. He'd be starting for Ohio St. right now had he qualified academically. Saban tried to recruit him too.

I see some things in him that exceed either of the guys in front of him. Might see more of him this year.

SF Dolphin Fan
05-17-2012, 09:38 PM
Looks like a lot more talent than last year. I definitely could see Miami drafting a pass rusher early even if Olivier Vernon comes through.

D-Rock
05-18-2012, 12:00 PM
can never have too many pass rushers

utahphinsfan
05-18-2012, 02:24 PM
CK/Slimm;

While this probably isn't the best place to ask, but, I'm curious for your thoughts on Star Lotulelei (a DT here at the U of Utah) ? I read recently he could be the #1 overalll pick in the 2013 draft.

TedSlimmJr
05-18-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm familiar with Lotulelei but haven't really gotten around to focusing on my defensive tackle group yet....certainly haven't given him enough of a look to determine whether or not he's going to be the #1 overall pick, although I find that to be an interesting presumption.

It'll be on into the summer before I evaluate my defensive tackles.

justdev7
05-21-2012, 11:19 PM
I'd like to throw Demontre Moore's name in. DE/OLB tweener for Texas A&M. Kid has the quickest first step in FBS


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justdev7
05-21-2012, 11:21 PM
Also Brandon Jenkins should. Defiantly be on this list


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ckparrothead
05-21-2012, 11:31 PM
He already is.

I've taken some closer looks at Damontre Moore and Devin Taylor. They're ok. Nothing special. We'll see how they improve.

rob19
05-22-2012, 09:24 AM
You background check all the guy's you scout?

ckparrothead
05-22-2012, 11:32 AM
You background check all the guy's you scout?

Not at this stage of the game. Right now I'm much more interested in which guys can play football and which guys can't. Why?

justdev7
06-14-2012, 11:14 PM
He already is.

I've taken some closer looks at Damontre Moore and Devin Taylor. They're ok. Nothing special. We'll see how they improve.

I'd Agree with Taylor being nothing special but Moore has cam wake like get off and still from what I've seen against the run (which is relatively limited) decent ability to hold the point of attack.


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ckparrothead
06-15-2012, 01:32 PM
I just don't see that Cameron Wake type ability that you do. We'll see.

Might be inclined to bump William Gholston behind Cory Lemonier for the moment. The potential is there but until he goes out and makes good on it, he's right in the same area as Sam Montgomery.

Fin_Frenzy_84
06-15-2012, 01:41 PM
Give me lemonier

ckparrothead
06-15-2012, 02:58 PM
Finding out some more about Bjoern Werner's background. Some of this is pretty crazy.

He fell in love with the sport when he was playing flag football and then tackle football at the Club Sports level in Germany (Berlin Adler, German word for Eagles). At flag football, he played wide receiver and safety. In the club sports he played a little linebacker until his coach decided he needed to move to defensive end because that's where he had the most potential to wreck the offense. At about 15 years old, Bjoern was wrecking 18+ year old guys, and his coach recognized that he had uncommon ability. The coach (German) had never done this before, but he recommended to Bjoern that he go to America immediately and try and go through a prep school and into the college ranks. Bjoern thinks very fondly of that coach and thinks of him as much a friend as a coach, credits him for the wisdom of moving him to defensive end but also for thinking more for Bjoern's sake than his own as Werner naturally would think that a coach in that position would want to keep hold of a guy that talented rather than send him off.

This is where it gets interesting. His coach may have planted the idea in Bjoern's head, for which he's grateful, but he didn't really do much aside from that. Bjoern sees an advertisement on the Berlin Thunder NFL Europe's website for the USA Football International Student program. The program takes kids from all over the world and places them in various prep schools in the New England area, pays a little portion of the tuition and then it's up to the school to figure out how to collect the rest of the tuition. Bjoern applied to the program and was accepted.

This is a 16 year old kid and he's doing all this pretty much on his own. He approached his family about it after he'd taken care of most of it and they were only worried about the money angle, because they didn't have the money to pay for any of this. Normally an exchange student program costs you thousand and thousands of dollars, but he explained it's not like that...he wants to come over and stay permanently and play football. He told them not to worry about the money, he's 16 years old and he's old enough to take care of all of this, and his mom said OK but we really can't pay.

He began emailing Coach Chris Adams at the Connecticut prep school where he would eventually end up, expressed his desire to play there. He sent over a highlight tape of himself playing at the Club Sports level. The coach got the school to offer him sports financial aid, and the only thing Bjoern and his family had to pay for were the flights over from Germany.

He went back and forth from Connecticut to Germany during the long breaks they had at his prep school, as he had a girlfriend back in Germany that he met when he was 16 years old about 6 months before he left for Connecticut. Eventually, his senior year of High School when he was about 19 years old, they decided to get married. He said teammates don't tease him about being married but they do ask a lot of questions about it, why he got married so young, etc. His wife thinks he's a super star because of the attention college football players get by the media. As of an interview just prior to the 2011 season, he had not been back to Germany since he came to FSU. He hears that his little brother has sprouted up to 6'6" now (soccer player), but he can't even picture his own family, he only hears them over the phone.

German stereotypes that annoy him? No, he does not love David Hasselhoff. He doesn't eat sausages, he's from Berlin and that's all in the South, he says. His friends tell him, oh man you probably drink a lot (drinking age lower in Germany). He says no, I don't drink at all.

Unusually mature at an early age, married, doesn't drink, physical phenom, no sense of entitlement. Gonna make a hell of an NFL player one day.

ckparrothead
06-18-2012, 02:06 PM
Accounting for more players as I go, making some adjustments here and there, etc...

01. DE Bjoern Werner, Florida State - Burst off ball. J.J. Watt. Ball tracking. Unusual number pass deflections. Maturity. Background. Hands. Always in control. Edge rush w/ compression. Flexibility. Strength. Demeanor. Great size. Aware. Premium caliber.

02. DE/OLB James Gayle, Virginia Tech - Burst off ball. Jabaal Sheard. Jason Taylor. Down stance. Up stance, rare. Control. Hands. Edge rush w/ compression. Counters. Inside move while acclerating w/ no contact. Balance. Strength.

03. OLB Barkevious Mingo, LSU - Lacks strength, but not weak. Foot churn. Cat quick. Acceleration. High potential. Joystick control and balance. Jack rabbit retrace. Quickest off snap. Linebacker build. Not small.

04. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon - Tall. Hands. Punch, shock, shiver. Strong side linebacker. Hits tight ends. Hits backs. Quick off snap. Length. Outside rush. Counters. Decent control. Speed. Acceleration. Tight end background. Aware.

05. DE Malliciah Goodman, Clemson - Thick. Size. Arm length. Strength. Israel Idonije. Hands. Pad level. Deflections. Powerful. Burst. Edge rush w/ compression. Flexible. Foot churn. Inconsistent off snap. Inconsistent shed vs run. Keeps blockers off body. Punch. Aware. Control.

06. OLB Jarvis Jones, Georgia - Hands. Counters. Pass rush. Punch. Up player. Violent. Fluid hand-foot coordination. Not great off snap. Not great edge rush yet. Small.

07. DE/OLB Alex Okafor, Texas - Length. Savvy. Play maker. Edge rush. Versatility. Control. Not the quickest. Not the fastest. Clock not running at elite level. Sometimes hitch between 1st/2nd steps. Flat back.

08. DE Cory Lemonier, Auburn - Build. Speed. Burst off snap. Edge rush needs improvement. Paddle steps. Keeps blockers off body. Length. Sheds. Strength. Thin.

09. DE Sam Montgomery, LSU - Bad off snap. Gathers. Good burst after gather. Strength. Power. Size. Length. Bad balance. Doesn't bend the outside.

10. DE William Gholston, Michigan State - Bad hand discipline. Not in control. Size. Length. Needs more strength. Vicious. Motor.

11. DE John Simon, Ohio State - Bad off snap. Ridiculous motor. Energy. Wide. Long arms. Phenomenal strength. Control. Run defense. Shadow. Aware. Overgrown linebacker. Can beat tackles outside with athleticism. Lacks bend. Nasty.

12. DT/DE Margus Hunt, SMU - Stiff middle. Ridiculous size/speed. Explosive. Motor. Lacks edge rush. Lacks instincts for ground game. Doesn't shed enough. Blocks tons of kicks.

13. OLB Brandon Jenkins, Florida State - Take-off. 2nd/3rd step guy. Some edge rush. Not strong. Not flexible. Hustle plays. Inconsistent motor when unblocked. Overrated speed. Inconsistent hands. Consistent effort when blocked. Spin move.

14. DE Demontre Moore, Texas A&M -

15. DE/OLB Jackson Jeffcoat, Texas - Motor. Burst off snap. Solid build. Bad technique. Bad hands. Easily blocked. Unearned stats. Overrated strength. Not aware. Does not shed, or get off blocks. Does not keep feet moving. Highly athletic long speed, will test well.

16. DE Wes Horton, Southern Cal - Build. Bad off snap. Pad level. Doesn't shed. Gets blocked. Strong. Not aware. Not fast.

17. DE Devin Taylor, South Carolina -

18. DE Michael Buchanon, Illinois - Build. Athletic. Motor. Soft. Weak. Unearned stats. Not explosive enough. Not fast enough. Not flexible enough.

19. DE Craig Roh, Michigan - Not fast. Lacks burst. Motor. Strength. Size. Bad change of direction.

Note: Texas A&M Sean Porter excluded only because I evaluate him as a 4-3 Will backer, not really same position as the above. Most other exclusions are due to lack of evaluation.

NorFlaFin
06-18-2012, 08:59 PM
Margus Hunt - SMU - Estonia born Olympic level Track and Field Discus thrower. Did not play hs ball

ckparrothead
06-22-2012, 12:31 PM
I think Datone Jones will round out my top 20 for now. Probably stick him at the #18 spot and bump Michael Buchanon and Craig Roh down a spot. Datone Jones great body, size, bubble, but doesn't use his hands well, plays off balance. The thing he has is a burst off the snap (when he uses it properly) that is one of the best in the class. I didn't check the UCLA-Stanford game to make sure, but I also seem to recall Coby Fleener dominating him as a blocker, and Fleener does not exactly have a reputation as a great blocker, so that's not good.

robb
06-30-2012, 12:23 PM
Also there's a kid at cincy u I think would be a great pick up in the mid rds

MiamiDolphin618
08-09-2012, 06:38 PM
Ok CK...Ive looked at a few clips of what I could find...and I have to agree with you on Werner...he is a monster. Physical..violent..explosive is how I would describe him. Im still high on Mingo...he is more explosive but doesn't have the violent hands Werner has off what Ive seen. I think Mingo has a higher ceiling because if he fills out that frame he is going to be special..he already is a specimen as a pass rusher. Also saw some things on Gayle..again limited..but I didn't think he was in the same league as the other two off what I saw

dolfan91
08-10-2012, 02:01 PM
It's threads like this that made me a Finheaven poster. I love all the work the draft guru's put into finding and posting opinions, info and stats about college football and potential draft eligible athletes. Thanks Guys!!!

SF Dolphin Fan
08-11-2012, 10:40 AM
Finding out some more about Bjoern Werner's background. Some of this is pretty crazy.

He fell in love with the sport when he was playing flag football and then tackle football at the Club Sports level in Germany (Berlin Adler, German word for Eagles). At flag football, he played wide receiver and safety. In the club sports he played a little linebacker until his coach decided he needed to move to defensive end because that's where he had the most potential to wreck the offense. At about 15 years old, Bjoern was wrecking 18+ year old guys, and his coach recognized that he had uncommon ability. The coach (German) had never done this before, but he recommended to Bjoern that he go to America immediately and try and go through a prep school and into the college ranks. Bjoern thinks very fondly of that coach and thinks of him as much a friend as a coach, credits him for the wisdom of moving him to defensive end but also for thinking more for Bjoern's sake than his own as Werner naturally would think that a coach in that position would want to keep hold of a guy that talented rather than send him off.

This is where it gets interesting. His coach may have planted the idea in Bjoern's head, for which he's grateful, but he didn't really do much aside from that. Bjoern sees an advertisement on the Berlin Thunder NFL Europe's website for the USA Football International Student program. The program takes kids from all over the world and places them in various prep schools in the New England area, pays a little portion of the tuition and then it's up to the school to figure out how to collect the rest of the tuition. Bjoern applied to the program and was accepted.

This is a 16 year old kid and he's doing all this pretty much on his own. He approached his family about it after he'd taken care of most of it and they were only worried about the money angle, because they didn't have the money to pay for any of this. Normally an exchange student program costs you thousand and thousands of dollars, but he explained it's not like that...he wants to come over and stay permanently and play football. He told them not to worry about the money, he's 16 years old and he's old enough to take care of all of this, and his mom said OK but we really can't pay.

He began emailing Coach Chris Adams at the Connecticut prep school where he would eventually end up, expressed his desire to play there. He sent over a highlight tape of himself playing at the Club Sports level. The coach got the school to offer him sports financial aid, and the only thing Bjoern and his family had to pay for were the flights over from Germany.

He went back and forth from Connecticut to Germany during the long breaks they had at his prep school, as he had a girlfriend back in Germany that he met when he was 16 years old about 6 months before he left for Connecticut. Eventually, his senior year of High School when he was about 19 years old, they decided to get married. He said teammates don't tease him about being married but they do ask a lot of questions about it, why he got married so young, etc. His wife thinks he's a super star because of the attention college football players get by the media. As of an interview just prior to the 2011 season, he had not been back to Germany since he came to FSU. He hears that his little brother has sprouted up to 6'6" now (soccer player), but he can't even picture his own family, he only hears them over the phone.

German stereotypes that annoy him? No, he does not love David Hasselhoff. He doesn't eat sausages, he's from Berlin and that's all in the South, he says. His friends tell him, oh man you probably drink a lot (drinking age lower in Germany). He says no, I don't drink at all.

Unusually mature at an early age, married, doesn't drink, physical phenom, no sense of entitlement. Gonna make a hell of an NFL player one day.That's a great story and certainly makes you love the kid's iniative (sp) at such a young age. He basically made it happen on his own. On tape you can see his explosiveness. Definitely someone I'm looking forward to seeing in live action.

ckparrothead
08-13-2012, 03:50 AM
Giving a bump to the FSU DE that TedSlimmJr brought up, Cornelius Carradine. I still don't agree with Slimm that he will end up better than Bjoern Werner but I may move him ahead of Brandon Jenkins in my rankings. Carradine had a strong spring, was pretty dominant in the spring game (Werner and Jenkins did not participate) and he looks cut from marble as far as what you look for in an NFL defensive end.

FINMAN13
09-17-2012, 11:17 AM
If Miami keeps the 4-3 front look going into the future... James Gayle from Virginia Tech would be a great addition to this defense. I am worried that he will continue to climb the rankings and we end up missing on him. The man can play at a high level and Bud Foster just loves this guy! High motor and gets a lot of pressure on QB's!

Here is some more info on him...

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=90498&draftyear=2014&genpos=DE

ckparrothead
09-17-2012, 02:04 PM
If Miami keeps the 4-3 front look going into the future... James Gayle from Virginia Tech would be a great addition to this defense. I am worried that he will continue to climb the rankings and we end up missing on him. The man can play at a high level and Bud Foster just loves this guy! High motor and gets a lot of pressure on QB's!

Here is some more info on him...

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=90498&draftyear=2014&genpos=DE

Everyone already knew about Barkevious Mingo, but when I dug hard into the 2011 tape for guys that would come out on top during the 2012 season, Bjoern Werner and James Gayle were the two that stood out like sore thumbs.

Dion Jordan is not getting enough air time, either. And with Brandon Jenkins gone for the year, Cornellius Carridine is having his day in the sun. Cory Lemonier is worthy of praise.

SF Dolphin Fan
09-17-2012, 06:20 PM
Everyone already knew about Barkevious Mingo, but when I dug hard into the 2011 tape for guys that would come out on top during the 2012 season, Bjoern Werner and James Gayle were the two that stood out like sore thumbs.

Dion Jordan is not getting enough air time, either. And with Brandon Jenkins gone for the year, Cornellius Carridine is having his day in the sun. Cory Lemonier is worthy of praise.Interested to hear your take on Jarvis Jones. Is he in the same class, or close to Barkevious Mingo, as a pass rusher? Keep hearing that he is a complete player, but I wonder how he might fit in Miami's offense. I still feel that we need a pass rusher first and then concentrate on wide receiver, but will see what the rest of the season brings.

TedSlimmJr
09-17-2012, 10:11 PM
Jarvis Jones is the best defensive player in the country.

Although he's not a defensive end and won't be a defensive end. He's a 3-4 rush linebacker and he'll be one in the NFL. You don't see many athletes of this caliber rushing the passer who can destroy an offensive tackle with speed and then play with their shoulders perpendicular to the LOS the way he can. His hand use is so good that offensive lineman can't even sustain a base block on him in the run game. A top 5 pick similar to Von Miller.

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 01:12 AM
mingo will go ahead of jones...

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 09:01 AM
mingo will go ahead of jones...


He might want to get his butt on the field, stay on it.... and start producing if he plans on going ahead of the best defensive player in the country.

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 09:32 AM
mingo is gonna test off the charts...and with his length and upside and pass rush tools not to mention 43 de is a premium draft slot position especially ones with terrific pass rush skills i don't see any way he gets out of the top 5...doesn't matter anyways...miami's gonna win too many games to sniff either one of them

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 09:58 AM
mingo is gonna test off the charts...and with his length and upside and pass rush tools not to mention 43 de is a premium draft slot position especially ones with terrific pass rush skills i don't see any way he gets out of the top 5...doesn't matter anyways...miami's gonna win too many games to sniff either one of them


We all know he's going to test well. However, if he doesn't stay on the field and start producing soon he's not going to test at all because he's not going to declare early. He'll stay for another year.

He's still rail thin and not an ounce over 235 pounds at the most. Nobody is taking a physically underdeveloped 235 pound defensive end in the top 5 no matter how athletic he is. You're not going to play DE in the NFL at that weight. I'm actually a little disappointed that he hasn't added any weight and still thin as a zipper. Unlike Sam Montgomery who added about 15 pounds of muscle in the off-season. He looks good with it too.

Furthermore, he doesn't have elite pass rush skills. He simply has elite athletic ability, speed, and change of direction. We shut him out over 2 games last year. In 8 quarters of football against Bama's tackles he had 1 TFL. No sacks. Invisible. Our offense whipped him and the Herbal Badger up and down the field while smartly avoiding Morris Claiborne like the plague.

Jarvis Jones has already perfected playing the stand-up outside linebacker position under a former NFL defensive coordinator in Todd Grantham's system. He single handedly dominates games and essentially won the Missouri game for UGA. Whether it's stopping the run, dropping into coverage and intercepting passes, or spinning tackles like a top on his way to forcing fumbles... Jarvis Jones is the truth. He'll have his name in the Heisman Trophy conversation by the end of the season. This is the best defensive player in the country. I promise.

Mingo won't be drafted ahead of him.. and I like Mingo. But I ain't no fool. Jarvis Jones is it partner.

SF Dolphin Fan
09-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Jarvis Jones is the best defensive player in the country.

Although he's not a defensive end and won't be a defensive end. He's a 3-4 rush linebacker and he'll be one in the NFL. You don't see many athletes of this caliber rushing the passer who can destroy an offensive tackle with speed and then play with their shoulders perpendicular to the LOS the way he can. His hand use is so good that offensive lineman can't even sustain a base block on him in the run game. A top 5 pick similar to Von Miller.Yeah, that's what we need. I know the offense is screaming for a wide receiver, but Miami is going to struggle to get off the field on third downs versus good teams. We will probably win 5-6 games, though, which means both Jones and Mingo could be gone. Then again, we are in good shape to trade up if we really have to have someone. I do like CK's guy too, Bjorn Werner.

Fin Thirteen
09-18-2012, 01:00 PM
Totally agree with Ted on Mingo.

Gayle looks very good to me, Lemonier also interesting. But I like Goodman a lot from the little bit I've seen of him so far.

Werner looks a little under-conditioned to me. I don't think he's going to wow with his measurements, which will put some teams off. So it's hard to know how he'll translate. Brains, work ethic and instinct go a long way in the NFL. I think he needs to add a little more core explosiveness to his frame and he could be special.

If I had to draft tomorrow, I'd be looking at Gayle and Goodman for Miami. If Goodman could get a little better consistency off the blocks (as ck also noted), he'd be a hell of a player. He's another guy that could benefit from more conditioning, imo.

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 01:45 PM
totally disagree on mingo...his pass rush is no more raw than jpps was when he came out...he's not 235 lbs and we all know that after the college season the guys gonna carbo load and come in to the combine at 250 lbs plus and rip it up...teams will bet on the upside and salivate over him as a 265 lb end...and again 43 end with high pass rush tools trumps 34 olb when it comes to draft position rankings traditionally...can't see how or why it will change here...the new cba means even less risk upside will be huge...the guys motor is nonstop and he's dominant now light in the pants...i also have no idea what slimms talking about when he says mingo was dominated in the bama games...

datruth55
09-18-2012, 02:21 PM
No opinion on Demontre Moore?

RealDriscoll
09-18-2012, 03:00 PM
It's a pretty good list. While I like Werner I don't see him in the class of Barkevious Mingo or Jarvis Jones. For my $ Barkevious Mingo and Jarvis Jones are franchise type of players.

First, Mingo is absolutely relentless and never gives up on a play. He has a long, athletic frame and his first step is explosive. He uses his hands well to fight off blocks and is explosive overall in the Jason Pierre Paul mold. Mingo has solid technique allowing him to maneuver around blockers and plays with great instincts.

Jarvis Jones can do it all when it comes to rushing the quarterback but his height. 6"2, will be concerning to some teams. The thing that stands out when it comes to Jarvis Jones that he plays the run exceptionally well.

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 03:28 PM
totally disagree on mingo...his pass rush is no more raw than jpps was when he came out...he's not 235 lbs and we all know that after the college season the guys gonna carbo load and come in to the combine at 250 lbs plus and rip it up...teams will bet on the upside and salivate over him as a 265 lb end...and again 43 end with high pass rush tools trumps 34 olb when it comes to draft position rankings traditionally...can't see how or why it will change here...the new cba means even less risk upside will be huge...the guys motor is nonstop and he's dominant now light in the pants...i also have no idea what slimms talking about when he says mingo was dominated in the bama games...


Mingo has already said he's 235 right now hoops... you're arguing just to argue. He looks thinner than that. He looks like a safety.

Have you even watched any college football this year...particularly LSU? Mingo didn't even start last week against Idaho. They've been starting Lavar Edwards in his place who isn't a bad prospect himself. Had a sack and an INT return for a TD in Mingo's place. Mingo sprained his ankle the week before against Washington and came in and played 2 series against Idaho before he was limping again. He has to get it together soon because he's not the only elite athlete in college who can rush the passer, except the rest of them are on the field producing. Mingo has done virtually nothing to this point.

JPP didn't go in the top 5 and he was already playing at almost 270 pounds in college. They didn't have to hope Pierre-Paul put on weight, it was already there.

I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say Bama dominated Mingo both games. I attended the first one in Tuscaloosa and have combed over the film of both games more than 25 times. If you know what you're talking about and I don't, feel free to inform me on all the plays he made. I know what happened and why.

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 03:37 PM
No opinion on Demontre Moore?


I really like him. I was interested to see what type of transition he was going to make from outside linebacker to playing DE this year and it's been a smooth one. He looks natural at either.

I talked about him a little back in April and he was one of the underclassman that stood out to me. I had a thread for a few of my underclassman and my take on him as a (sophomore) linebacker.... about halfway down the page or so. I'll do more on him and his switch to defensive end if he declares...

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?318883-Slimm-s-2013-prospects-(underclassman)/page3

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 04:24 PM
yeah i have watched some college ball...watched mingo look like by far the best looking prospect on the field against washington...admittedly as per usual i have not been locked in on college ball right now...most my free time is spent watching pro this early...but the dvrs working overload...i will ramp it up as we get closer to the postseason/draft process...

i can already see we are gonna have some disagreements this year...is milliner the same corner that every time he played the last few years would get torched??? i wanna say it was #28 that was getting owned and exploited when he played in years past...but i guess i could have him mixed up

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 04:36 PM
oh and slimm here is where my love affair with mingo began...watching him beast in the national champ game against your bama boys...hell you even admitted that he had top 10 pick upside in the very thread...if you don't think that kid showed off legit talent and top pick worthy talent and upside well i suggest you watch it a 26th time...anyways i'm on the bandwagon with this kid beginning with post #27...first time i'd seen him play stuck out like a sore thumb...undeniable eye popping talent...

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?312174-the-official-bcs-national-championship-game-lsu-vs-alabama-game-thread/page3

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 05:11 PM
yeah i have watched some college ball...watched mingo look like by far the best looking prospect on the field against washington...admittedly as per usual i have not been locked in on college ball right now...most my free time is spent watching pro this early...but the dvrs working overload...i will ramp it up as we get closer to the postseason/draft process...

i can already see we are gonna have some disagreements this year...is milliner the same corner that every time he played the last few years would get torched??? i wanna say it was #28 that was getting owned and exploited when he played in years past...but i guess i could have him mixed up


Nobody on Alabama's defense has been getting burned every time they played. You do realize that Alabama only allowed 111 yards per game through the air last year at a clip of 4.3 yards/attempt. Both best in the country by a substantial margin with Milliner playing the field corner in nickel packages because Menzie moved inside to the slot.

Milliner was burned a couple of times as a freshman 2 years ago because he hadn't quite grasped Saban's scheme yet. It was only a few plays (against Arkansas for example) where he'd be playing man coverage when everyone else was playing zone. The communication is sent in via the safety (Barron) and Milliner didn't get the call. The communication is the key to Saban's secondary.

He shuts down his side of the field for the most part. He's a big, physical, press corner who's capable of shutting down his side of the field, and does for the most part. He's already defended 5 passes in a little less than 2 full games (didn't play against Western Kentucky, and only the first half in the other two blowouts) with 2 interceptions (one called back for a penalty that he nearly returned for a TD last Saturday).

We're definitely going to disagree here.

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 05:15 PM
my point being in years past when the defense gave up plays in the passing game the secondary player that primarily gave em up was milliner correct??? i'm fully aware that the bama d was legit and shut people down...i just recall when plays being made #28 the goat

he shut down half the field against michigans wrs but imo that was more a reflection of michigan having nothing at the position for the next level at least to my eye and robinson being scattershot as a passer

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 05:28 PM
oh and slimm here is where my love affair with mingo began...watching him beast in the national champ game against your bama boys...hell you even admitted that he had top 10 pick upside in the very thread...if you don't think that kid showed off legit talent and top pick worthy talent and upside well i suggest you watch it a 26th time...anyways i'm on the bandwagon with this kid beginning with post #27...first time i'd seen him play stuck out like a sore thumb...undeniable eye popping talent...

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?312174-the-official-bcs-national-championship-game-lsu-vs-alabama-game-thread/page3


I think he does have top 10 potential, but it may not be this year.

He's definitely not going to play DE in the NFL at his current weight. Although I never thought he'd play DE in the NFL to begin with and said so several times from the beginning. I think he'll have to play linebacker unless he puts on 20-25 pounds of good weight, not manufactured weight.

I think he's a terrific athlete with a lot of upside, but he's not playing well this year. I was as high on him as anybody was but I've been watching him and I'm not going to go against what I see for the sake of being hard headed. He's got a lot of developing in front of him. Probably more than I thought.

Maybe you need to watch it for a 2nd time. Watch it like I have about 2 dozen times and tell me exactly where he isn't being controlled, and where all the plays are at that you're convinced he was making.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOBkEpKUZvY

TedSlimmJr
09-18-2012, 05:37 PM
my point being in years past when the defense gave up plays in the passing game the secondary player that primarily gave em up was milliner correct??? i'm fully aware that the bama d was legit and shut people down...i just recall when plays being made #28 the goat

he shut down half the field against michigans wrs but imo that was more a reflection of michigan having nothing at the position for the next level at least to my eye and robinson being scattershot as a passer


He only got burned his freshman season because of miscommunication, not because of talent. I can't make it any clearer. If you need to see those games again then watch 'em again.

Dre Kirkpatrick got burned on the first play of the game by Andre Debose last year for a TD, not Dee Milliner. Kirkpatrick got burned again the week before by Arkansas, not Dee Milliner.

Those passes Milliner was defending against Michigan were on target, he was just in perfect position to defend the pass. The interception he had was because he ran Roy Roundtree (who will get a chance to play in the NFL in the slot) clean out of bounds with one push in press coverage and finished the route as if he was the receiver.

I'll take Milliner and you can have Sugar Possum any day.

hooshoops
09-18-2012, 05:38 PM
oh wow i didn't even know that game was available...don't use youtube much...primarily dvr...but i will take another look...and yeah i was hoping he would come in this year with a good 10 more lbs of good weight and it doesn't look like he did...still teams are gonna salivate over the prospect of what he can do with good weight on that body...and i'm not about to say the guy can only play standing up in the pros...i see 43 de massive upside...

Fin Thirteen
09-19-2012, 08:46 AM
04. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon - Tall. Hands. Punch, shock, shiver. Strong side linebacker. Hits tight ends. Hits backs. Quick off snap. Length. Outside rush. Counters. Decent control. Speed. Acceleration. Tight end background. Aware.

Every time I try to watch Dion Jordan, my eye gets pulled to Kiko Alonso. Troubled kid, yes, but incredibly instinctive, great game reader. Kaddu is the opposite of Alonso - physical, raw, a total project player. Alonso is NFL-ready, imo. I'm sure that practising week-in week-out against Chip Kelly's offense is great for linebackers' development and Alonso keeps displaying his ability to get around the ball and make plays.

Completely hashed up his pick at the weekend by getting out of sync with his army of blockers, but if scouts believe that he's a reformed character he could really climb the draft charts.

Sorry for the sidetrack! At some point I'll look at Dion Jordan without getting distracted.

Fin Thirteen
09-19-2012, 09:26 AM
Btw, no love for Chase Thomas of Stanford as an OLB?

TedSlimmJr
09-19-2012, 09:56 AM
Btw, no love for Chase Thomas of Stanford as an OLB?



You'll find some here on page 2 of this thread I made back in May....

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?320257-Slimm-s-2013-Prospects-(Seniors)/page2



I consider the top of the Senior class of pass rushers (DE/OLB) to consist of Thomas, Okafor, Dion Jordan, Walter Stewart, Datone Jones, Cornellius Carradine, Trevardo Williams, Quanterus Smith, David Bass, Willie Jefferson, Michael Buchanan, Jamie Collins, Toben Opurum, and Devin Taylor.

I've always liked Thomas right there with the best of 'em.

As an aside, Josh Mauro at defensive tackle is a kid who is blossoming as a Senior for Stanford along the defensive line. If you pay attention to how Stanford beat USC, it all starts at the LOS with Thomas and Mauro. I think Mauro might even draw some interest as a 5-tech by some teams that utilize 30 fronts.... he's a pretty solid prototype for it at 6'6" 280 pounds with room to add another 10-15 pounds to his frame. Probably in the late round category right now with upside as a developmental player is where I have him.

RealDriscoll
09-19-2012, 11:54 PM
Check out my 7 Round 2013 NFL Mock Draft http://nfldraftwizard.com/?p=2828

hooshoops
09-20-2012, 04:18 PM
i just got done looking at werner against wake...and i can definitely see why many of you guys like him...i see some things i really like there...one thing really stands out to me...

carradine limited exposure but right now i'm kinda ehhhh....

TedSlimmJr
09-20-2012, 05:22 PM
There are certainly better pure pass rushers in the country than Bjoern Werner as far as that goes, but I don't think any play the defensive end position better than he does. He sees everything and plays with his head up. Even when he loses leverage on the football with his pass rush he can still find it and make the play.

I still think Carradine can be just as dominant... he continues to get better every week.


Ben Habern and Patrick Larimore shouldn't be in any mock drafts as they both retired from football prior to the season. Habern because of neck injuries and Larimore due to concussions.

hooshoops
09-20-2012, 05:28 PM
werners got a very good get off of the ball...that's huge for me with edge pass rushers...he gets off the ball very quickly...can get a little upright though after but i'm always of the opinion if you have plus get off of the ball i can work with your pass rush and you can make hay...i see real strength in his hands also...

TedSlimmJr
09-20-2012, 05:32 PM
Have you found all those plays Mingo made against Bama yet, hoops...

ckparrothead
09-20-2012, 05:34 PM
Werner's getoff is consistent, is what I like there. It's good, not super ridiculous but very good, but best of all it's consistent.

The awareness and ease with which he can shed the block are two things that stood out last year. He's like J.J. Watt when it comes to getting his hands up and knocking down passes.

hooshoops
09-20-2012, 06:14 PM
Have you found all those plays Mingo made against Bama yet, hoops...

haven't looked at it yet...that said i never said he made a ton of plays...what i said is that he showed off sick talent and was the best looking pro upside and talent prospect on the field...i stand by that...when i look this weekend i'll write down the times and plays that stood out to me and post them for you to review though...i thought he was the best looking player from a pro future stand point on either los...the kinda talent that teams salivate over...

anyways werners get off...consistent sounds good...it's not jaw dropping but he sure looked like he was consistently the first guy off the ball from what i saw...it's a plus get off for me

TedSlimmJr
09-20-2012, 06:51 PM
What exactly are you calling upside besides athletic ability and speed? Mingo has certainly shown those things in the past (against Oregon, Auburn, and Arkansas for example) but he didn't show "sick talent" or the "best pro upside and talent prospect on the field" against Alabama in either game. In both games the best prospects on the field were Trent Richardson and Morris Claiborne.

I specifically said that Mingo was dominated by Alabama, you said you didn't know what I was talking about... as if he was making a bunch of plays. He didn't make any, hoops.


Here's what happened on the first drive Bama had the football:

-Mingo was base blocked by a guard (Chance Warmack). If you know what a base block is, the best pro prospect on the field shouldn't be getting base blocked by a guard.

-Beat slow footed D.J. Fluker to the inside... him and 2 other LSU defenders force McCarron to unload the ball early



2nd Drive:

Didn't play. They pulled him off the field because he was losing leverage on the football by getting upfield too far, not maintaining gap integrity in the run game.



3rd Drive:

-Didn't start the drive on defense

-We complete a pass on him in the flat to the TE (Underwood) for a 1st down

-Run right at him as he's easily moved for another 1st down

-Blocked by the H-back (Brad Smelley) on the long pass to Kevin Norwood, who owned the Herbal Badger all game

-Again, base blocked by Fluker on the play where McCarron missed a wide open Smelley down the sideline

-Mingo dropped into zone coverage, McCarron scrambled for a nice gain

-Caught in the wash on the inside





I could go on, but this is essentially how it unfolds throughout the entire game. He had 2 tackles the entire contest and one of those was on the fake punt which resulted in another 1st down. He ended up getting a TFL somewhere along the way, but no sacks and no pressures. Tell me where he's at on the 34 yard TD run by Trent Richardson in the 4th quarter that went right at him... You see that #49 getting rag dolled by Barrett Jones on the play? That's Mingo.

hooshoops
09-20-2012, 11:35 PM
i already said in the actual game thread that mingo got destroyed on that play by jones...anyways i said the best pro upside at the los as in guys playing on it...and again i stand behind it...and this kids going very very high despite all his deficiencies that you like to point out it seems...higher than you could ever justify i guess

finsfanjay13
09-21-2012, 09:02 AM
As a FSU fan, I've liked Werner since the first time I saw him. No issues with him being a Dolphin.

justdev7
09-21-2012, 12:37 PM
I really like him. I was interested to see what type of transition he was going to make from outside linebacker to playing DE this year and it's been a smooth one. He looks natural at either.

I talked about him a little back in April and he was one of the underclassman that stood out to me. I had a thread for a few of my underclassman and my take on him as a (sophomore) linebacker.... about halfway down the page or so. I'll do more on him and his switch to defensive end if he declares...

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?318883-Slimm-s-2013-prospects-(underclassman)/page3

I know ck isnt a fan but I love this guy. Best first step in college football. Reminds me of Jason worilds a bit. My only worry was his strength against the run.

TedSlimmJr
09-23-2012, 06:14 PM
Carradine dominated Clemson in this game. These 2 defensive ends for Florida St. were the difference against Clemson.

Carradine has played better than Werner the last 2 games in my opinion where FSU played ACC opponents rather than cupcakes from the FCS.

He's dominating at the LOS with his length/strength/speed/quickness and still flying all over the field making tackles. He's leading the team in tackles despite not being in the starting lineup until after Brandon Jenkins went down.

Honestly, I dont think the 6.5 TFL's and 5.5 sacks in 3 starts for Carradine shows how good he's really been. Watch all of Florida St.'s games and it appears to be three of #91 on the field. His effort level and tenacity has impressed the hell out of me.

They're the best pair of defensive ends I've seen at Florida St. since Andre Wadsworth and Peter Bouleware in the mid-late 90's.

Hayden Fox
09-24-2012, 08:35 AM
I love Werner too. You know he is a 10-12 year, high motor, professional, "you can count on him" player. Put him opposite of Wake?

TedSlimmJr
09-30-2012, 09:31 PM
Like I said, Carradine can be dominant... a difference maker along the LOS. I saw the ability in him last year as a rotational player. This is the 3rd consecutive game where he's outplayed his teammate (Werner) who's a fine player in his own right, but shut out in consecutive games.

Gets better every week and I still haven't seen him take a single play off. Energy and intensity on every down is too much to handle and it put 6 points on the board for his team yesterday. Knows how to finish when his man is beat which isn't easy to grasp for a lot of kids.

Consistently puts up the best DE tape I see on a week to week basis and I watch around 50 a week.