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COphinphan89
06-19-2012, 12:37 AM
So what now? The MB won most of the parliamentary elections, but then the highest court dissolved it. Now it looks like the Brotherhood candidate won the presidential election but the military gave themselves all legislative powers and other things like war declaration and constitution drafting, effectively making Egypt a military dictatorship. And the president will have no control over them so is he anything more than a neutered figurehead now?

Did anything really change in this "Arab Spring"?

CedarPhin
06-19-2012, 12:39 AM
Nope.

They just tossed Mubarak out. The military's been the real kingmakers of that country for about the last 60 years. They're just now making it official. Kind of the mirror-image of Turkey.

COphinphan89
06-19-2012, 01:01 AM
Nope.

They just tossed Mubarak out. The military's been the real kingmakers of that country for about the last 60 years. They're just now making it official. Kind of the mirror-image of Turkey.
Kinda what I thought. Somewhat of a sigh of relief for the Israelis, no? Or at least for right now. With the MB being subverted by the old guard that has no qualms about suppressing them violently, will the Israelis not have to worry as much about the Camp David Accords being torn up?

CedarPhin
06-19-2012, 01:07 AM
Kinda what I thought. Somewhat of a sigh of relief for the Israelis, no? Or at least for right now. With the MB being subverted by the old guard that has no qualms about suppressing them violently, will the Israelis not have to worry as much about the Camp David Accords being torn up?

Pretty much.

SnakeoilSeller
06-19-2012, 07:50 AM
So much for the Arab Spring huh. That's what happens when you turn on our Allies and Hope for the best. Whether you liked him or not, Mubarek was an ally. So do you think Obama & Biden are going to be bragging about that Arab Spring still?

BTW, I don't know if Israel would feel the same way about Egypt was just tossing Mubarek out and that everything was the same:

Militants cross into Israel from Egypt, 1 killed

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120618/D9VFIAO00.html

IDF tanks move closer to Egypt border

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4243969,00.html

COphinphan89
06-19-2012, 11:07 AM
Those little border dust-ups happen over there all the time. There was an incident in the Golan Heights before the Syrian crisis erupted with a bunch of young people rushing towards Israel. Not really sure what the goal was there. Unsurprisingly, a few of them got themselves killed. Now a few militant zealots on the border Israel can handle. But if an Islamist leader could actually get a ruthless Egyptian military to do his bidding, then Israel might have a problem. But what it looks like is happening here is that the military appears to have zero interest in handing over their power. This could lead to more internal strife for Egypt though.

Eshlemon
06-19-2012, 05:09 PM
Who blinks first?



WASHINGTON — The Obama administration warned Egypt’s military leaders on Monday to speedily hand over power or risk losing billions of dollars in U.S. military and economic aid to the country.http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pentagon-is-concerned-about-egyptian-militarys-latest-moves-but-hopeful-of-transition/2012/06/18/gJQAFAvZlV_story.html


If we cut our connections as threatened, Egypt is just going to go back to Russian and Chinese camp as they where before the Camp David Accords. And the Accords get nullified as aid to Egypt is one of the requirements...which the elected government may have done anyway. If we don't, so much for our calls for arab spring and democracy and the hate (or more hate) directed at us from the Egyptian people. And Russia tells us to STFU about Syria.

I know its big thing for the administration because of Obama's "tear down this wall" type speech in Cairo. But can't see how this threat as our first response is going to make the State departments job easier in getting our old pals in the Egyptian military back on course after they already felt we abandoned them during the uprising.

Eshlemon
06-19-2012, 05:55 PM
Egypt state news agency says Mubarak’s heart stopped beating, not responding to defibrillation

By Associated Press, Updated: Tuesday, June 19, 5:34 PMAP CAIRO — State news agency says Mubarak’s heart stopped beating, not responding to defibrillation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/egypt-state-news-agency-says-mubaraks-heart-stopped-beating-not-responding-to-defibrillation/2012/06/19/gJQAx0ggoV_story.html

The king is dead, long live the kings.

LANGER72
06-19-2012, 08:33 PM
When will we ever learn. We need to keep our financial aid and pay down our debt and fund the social security program.
Let the Egyptians suckle on Russia and China for a few decades.

Tetragrammaton
06-19-2012, 08:44 PM
That's what happens when you turn on our Allies and Hope for the best. Whether you liked him or not, Mubarek was an ally.

Do you really want to side with dictators?

SnakeoilSeller
06-20-2012, 09:44 AM
Do you really want to side with dictators?

It is not ideal, but better to dance with the girl you know. I would take Mubarek over the Muslim brotherhood.

Tetragrammaton
06-20-2012, 09:57 AM
It is not ideal, but better to dance with the girl you know. I would take Mubarek over the Muslim brotherhood.

The protesters were being mostly peaceful, and still over 1000 people were killed. Since you say we turned our back on Mubarak, what would you have had us do? Provide financial support to quell the revolution? Or even intervene militarily? He had to go, the people were fed up.

SnakeoilSeller
06-20-2012, 12:37 PM
The protesters were being mostly peaceful, and still over 1000 people were killed. Since you say we turned our back on Mubarak, what would you have had us do? Provide financial support to quell the revolution? Or even intervene militarily? He had to go, the people were fed up.

I have a feeling that if the US would have just shown support instead of telling Mubarak he had to step down, it would have been a different outcome. Now the US and Israel risk losing an ally to an Islamic Radical state - sound familiar? History has a way of repeating itself. Just like Iran in the 1970's, this is what happens when you have weak leadership at the top.

BTW, why is Obama handling Syria different then Egypt or Libya? Now in all cases he leads from behind, but did Mubarak have to go, but Assad doesn't?

Tetragrammaton
06-20-2012, 02:57 PM
I have a feeling that if the US would have just shown support instead of telling Mubarak he had to step down, it would have been a different outcome.

So we should have continued to support someone who was killing civilians, refusing to hold real elections, and breaching the freedom of the press? That sounds like such a terrible thing to believe in.

WSE
06-20-2012, 05:57 PM
I have a feeling that if the US would have just shown support instead of telling Mubarak he had to step down, it would have been a different outcome. Now the US and Israel risk losing an ally to an Islamic Radical state - sound familiar? History has a way of repeating itself. Just like Iran in the 1970's, this is what happens when you have weak leadership at the top.

BTW, why is Obama handling Syria different then Egypt or Libya? Now in all cases he leads from behind, but did Mubarak have to go, but Assad doesn't?

Assad is backed by Russia and China.... its a huge complication.

SnakeoilSeller
06-20-2012, 06:18 PM
Assad is backed by Russia and China.... its a huge complication.

So Obama should only handle the little problems? I agree that he is not qualified to handle anything more than a protest on some bank CEO's lawn, but his job is to handle the complicated matters. Cuba was backed by Russia during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy handled it. That's what real leaders and real Presidents do.

WSE
06-20-2012, 06:21 PM
So Obama should only handle the little problems? I agree that he is not qualified to handle anything more than a protest on some bank CEO's lawn, but his job is to handle the complicated matters. Cuba was backed by Russia during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy handled it. That's what real leaders and real Presidents do.

well, thats assuming its worth doing something. With it on the other side of the world and backed by allies (two differences from the situation you mentioned- Cuba is nextdoor and was backed by the Soviets), its not worth doing anything more than the placing of sanctions and such we are doing now as part of the world community.

Anything more could cause a large unneeded conflict. People are dying in Syria, its sad, but its a situation where we cant do much.

SnakeoilSeller
06-20-2012, 06:23 PM
So we should have continued to support someone who was killing civilians, refusing to hold real elections, and breaching the freedom of the press? That sounds like such a terrible thing to believe in.

What do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to do? They don't come across as card carrying members of the ACLU. The people of Egpyt's lives are going to get worse not better.

SnakeoilSeller
06-20-2012, 06:29 PM
well, thats assuming its worth doing something. With it on the other side of the world and backed by allies (two differences from the situation you mentioned- Cuba is nextdoor and was backed by the Soviets), its not worth doing anything more than the placing of sanctions and such we are doing now as part of the world community.

Anything more could cause a large unneeded conflict. People are dying in Syria, its sad, but its a situation where we cant do much.

I don't disagree, but it makes the United States look weak and scared. It is ok to make a comment when it involves a bunch of rag tag militia in Egpyt or Libya, but when big bad Russia and China gets involved, we stay quiet? That is weak, and it looks weak. It may not to the cool aid Obama lovers, but it does to the rest of the world. We should have the same policy for the same situations. If we want to stay out of all affairs like this, that's fine with me, but we should not move the goalposts because Obama is scared of Russia and China.

Tetragrammaton
06-20-2012, 08:38 PM
What do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to do? They don't come across as card carrying members of the ACLU. The people of Egpyt's lives are going to get worse not better.

What happens afterward has nothing to do with the issue of Mubarak. He was a dictator and dictators deserve to be overthrown.

CedarPhin
06-20-2012, 09:18 PM
So Obama should only handle the little problems? I agree that he is not qualified to handle anything more than a protest on some bank CEO's lawn, but his job is to handle the complicated matters. Cuba was backed by Russia during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy handled it. That's what real leaders and real Presidents do.

Why the **** should we get entangled with Russia and China over a windswept ****hole like Syria? Comparing the Cuban Missile Crisis to what's going on in Syria right now might be one of the most absurd comparisons.....of all time.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Egypt's going to stay a military junta anyway. I don't know why everyone's freaking out about the Muslim Brotherhood, they're going to probably stay marginal players for the forseeable future, despite their angry rhetoric. Seriously guys, read some books.

COphinphan89
06-20-2012, 09:47 PM
Why the **** should we get entangled with Russia and China over a windswept ****hole like Syria? Comparing the Cuban Missile Crisis to what's going on in Syria right now might be one of the most absurd comparisons.....of all time.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Egypt's going to stay a military junta anyway. I don't know why everyone's freaking out about the Muslim Brotherhood, they're going to probably stay marginal players for the forseeable future, despite their angry rhetoric. Seriously guys, read some books.
That is unless you actually believe that all of the "Iraqi WMDs" were moved into Syria before we started the war.

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 09:55 AM
Why the **** should we get entangled with Russia and China over a windswept ****hole like Syria? Comparing the Cuban Missile Crisis to what's going on in Syria right now might be one of the most absurd comparisons.....of all time.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Egypt's going to stay a military junta anyway. I don't know why everyone's freaking out about the Muslim Brotherhood, they're going to probably stay marginal players for the forseeable future, despite their angry rhetoric. Seriously guys, read some books.

Overblown, really? You should read something other than the Democratic talking points. If the Israeli papers are correct then Syria, China, Iran and Russia are going to have war games together. That is an interesting dynamic that could have HUGE ripple effects for the United States both from a military stand point and obvioously an economic one. And even if they dont have war games, you think that the country that owns so much of our debt, taking a stand against human rights and sticking up for the slaughter of innocent victims in Syria is small? Taking a position exactly opposite ours? You think that it is minor that Russia, who just ripped Obama a new *******, is favoring an alliance that is anti-US is minor? You think Israel feels all warm and fuzzy that Iran is aligning itself with MAJOR Super Powers? That is a naive attitude to say the least. A similar attitude to President Clinton's attitude on Al Qaeda and Bin Laden in the 90's. How did that turn out?

CedarPhin
06-21-2012, 01:56 PM
Overblown, really? You should read something other than the Democratic talking points. If the Israeli papers are correct then Syria, China, Iran and Russia are going to have war games together. That is an interesting dynamic that could have HUGE ripple effects for the United States both from a military stand point and obvioously an economic one. And even if they dont have war games, you think that the country that owns so much of our debt, taking a stand against human rights and sticking up for the slaughter of innocent victims in Syria is small? Taking a position exactly opposite ours? You think that it is minor that Russia, who just ripped Obama a new *******, is favoring an alliance that is anti-US is minor? You think Israel feels all warm and fuzzy that Iran is aligning itself with MAJOR Super Powers? That is a naive attitude to say the least. A similar attitude to President Clinton's attitude on Al Qaeda and Bin Laden in the 90's. How did that turn out?

Oh, so because I disagree with you, I'm automatically reading "Democratic talking points". Way to go out on a limbaugh. Too funny. Why even have a debate with you? You follow the right wing line, hook line and sinker, and paint everyone who disagrees with you with a broad brush. Pretty par for the course though. Critical thinking is your friend, perhaps you should engage in that instead of blurting form answers out.

I guess reading different things other than the big letters on the Drudge propaganda isn't kosher these days. Do you plan on doing a Kristallnacht to the Dems in your town anytime soon?

CedarPhin
06-21-2012, 02:08 PM
Overblown, really? You should read something other than the Democratic talking points.
Stop being a partisan hack, though you do a good job with it. Being Goebbels must have its perks where you live.


If the Israeli papers are correct then Syria, China, Iran and Russia are going to have war games together.
I don't think that's even going to happen, where'd you read it? This week's issue of "The MidEast is Burning!!!!"?


That is an interesting dynamic that could have HUGE ripple effects for the United States both from a military stand point and obvioously an economic one. And even if they dont have war games, you think that the country that owns so much of our debt, taking a stand against human rights and sticking up for the slaughter of innocent victims in Syria is small?

Better question, can you find Syria on a map? I don't know why you guys are afraid of the Chinese. They own a lot of debt. The Japanese own a lot of our debt too. We probably should be afraid of them, what with that fleet of abandoned fishing boats crossing the Pacific right now. Why the outrage over Syria? Just something to try and attack Obummer with? You do realize that no administration would take a hard line on Syria, correct? They're up to their asses in too much over there right now. They're Iran's ally? They're ours too, and were especially important during the last two Gulf Wars, with their involvement being more pronounced in Gulf War I, and not as much in Gulf War II. Read a book sometime.


Taking a position exactly opposite ours? You think that it is minor that Russia, who just ripped Obama a new *******, is favoring an alliance that is anti-US is minor?
Russia's a 3rd world country. Why should we be afraid of them? They're the drunk at the end of the bar who talks about their glory days, falls over, everyone laughs at them, so they try to pick a fight with a smaller person in the bar and end up getting their asses kicked. Like it or not, they've been pretty neutered since their Afghan adventure in the 80s.


You think Israel feels all warm and fuzzy that Iran is aligning itself with MAJOR Super Powers? That is a naive attitude to say the least.
The fact that you consider Russia a "major super power" just shows how much you don't know about the rest of the world, ditto for China. The United States is the sole superpower in the world.


A similar attitude to President Clinton's attitude on Al Qaeda and Bin Laden in the 90's. How did that turn out?

Reagan gave the Mujahadeen support against the Soviets in the 80s. How'd that turn out?

Quite honestly, you're doing pretty much the same thing you piss and moan about Obummer doing. You say he blames it all on Bush, you blame it all on him/the Democrats. I'd say you're pretty much doing the exact same thing. Irony at its finest.

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 02:38 PM
Oh, so because I disagree with you, I'm automatically reading "Democratic talking points". Way to go out on a limbaugh. Too funny. Why even have a debate with you? You follow the right wing line, hook line and sinker, and paint everyone who disagrees with you with a broad brush. Pretty par for the course though. Critical thinking is your friend, perhaps you should engage in that instead of blurting form answers out.

I guess reading different things other than the big letters on the Drudge propaganda isn't kosher these days. Do you plan on doing a Kristallnacht to the Dems in your town anytime soon?

Let me get this straight. You accuse me of only reading Drudge and listening Rush and that's ok. But as soon as I point out your penchant for sticking to the Democratic talking points, I am the idiot? That's pretty hypocritical isn't it? Aren't you accusing me of doing exactly what you are doing? The only thing is you did it first. That would be very Alinsky of you, wouldn't it be.

Thank you for opening up your mouth and proving my point the liberalism is a lie.

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 02:44 PM
I also find ironic that it seems to be ok now to personally attack someone line by line,but yet if I recall correctly it was you who gave me plenty of "penalties" before for personal attacks. Different standard I guess huh.

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 02:50 PM
BTW, you may be in the minority if you think China is a third world country. Here is a recent article about a pew poll that said the majority of Americans feel that China is an economic Superpower. But I am sure they are all just a bunch of mouth breathers that only read Drudge and listen to Rush Limabugh.

"The fact that you consider Russia a "major super power" just shows how much you don't know about the rest of the world, ditto for China. The United States is the sole superpower in the world. "


new survey from Pew Research says more Americans now view China as the world’s top economic power over the U.S., 41% to 40%. And a majority of survey responders in Germany (62%), Britain (58%), France (57%) and Spain (57%) say China is the world’s top economic power. Pew found a median 42% in 21 nations say China is the top economic power, versus 36% saying it’s the U.S.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/investing/2012/06/13/putting-china-power-in-perspective/

I guess there are a bunch of idiots all over the Globe.

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 02:56 PM
Here is one of the many articles on the War Games, it was on the Jerusalem Post Web site. I am not terribly sure if it was on The Mideast is Burning.net, I can't find a link for that off of Drudge, so I must be **** out of luck.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=274425&R=R1

Dolphins9954
06-21-2012, 02:58 PM
qjFs9CPGhts

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 03:06 PM
And even though you are not worried about Russia, it seems like our Secretary of State sure is:

Russia Sending Attack Helicopters to Syria, Clinton Says

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-12/russia-sending-attack-helicopters-to-syria-clinton-says.html

Dolphins9954
06-21-2012, 03:09 PM
And even though you are not worried about Russia, it seems like our Secretary of State sure is:

Russia Sending Attack Helicopters to Syria, Clinton Says


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-12/russia-sending-attack-helicopters-to-syria-clinton-says.html


And we send weapons to the rebels and many other bad people in the middle east. What's the difference?????

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 03:15 PM
And we send weapons to the rebels and many other bad people in the middle east. What's the difference?????

None.

My point was that we are obviously concerned with Russia, Cedar claims that I am an idiot for mentioning Russia and it shows how out of touch I am with mentioning Russia as a Super Power.

SnakeoilSeller
06-21-2012, 04:21 PM
And we send weapons to the rebels and many other bad people in the middle east. What's the difference?????

Obviously we are doing the same thing. Just the other side of this evil coin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/middleeast/cia-said-to-aid-in-steering-arms-to-syrian-rebels.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

LANGER72
06-21-2012, 06:25 PM
The wars are necessary to keep the military weapon factories up and running. All of the major powers sell their stuff. Clinton is a hypocrite.

IMHO..Face it, Egypt is a war zone for the next 10 years or longer...so is Syria.

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 01:37 PM
And even though you are not worried about Russia, it seems like our Secretary of State sure is:

Russia Sending Attack Helicopters to Syria, Clinton Says



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-12/russia-sending-attack-helicopters-to-syria-clinton-says.html

Which got the Russians pissed because it was worded like they were sending brand new helicopters to Syria. They weren't. They were refurbishing old ones/doing maintenence, and sending them back. I thought you were all for the free exchange of goods and all of that? Have you suddenly turned Selectively Socialist?

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------


None.

My point was that we are obviously concerned with Russia, Cedar claims that I am an idiot for mentioning Russia and it shows how out of touch I am with mentioning Russia as a Super Power.

Because it's not a Super Power, and hasn't been in the ballpark of being considered one since the 1980s. I'm sure you probably have a bunch of Red Scare memorabilia in your garage somewhere that you need to drum up controversy to sell, but to wax poetically about how a third world country like Russia is suddenly a superpower is asinine.

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 01:39 PM
Let me get this straight. You accuse me of only reading Drudge and listening Rush and that's ok. But as soon as I point out your penchant for sticking to the Democratic talking points, I am the idiot? That's pretty hypocritical isn't it? Aren't you accusing me of doing exactly what you are doing? The only thing is you did it first. That would be very Alinsky of you, wouldn't it be.

Thank you for opening up your mouth and proving my point the liberalism is a lie.

What Democratic talking points am I suddenly following? Because I think Romney's an idiot, and dare question your infinite wisdom that Russia's suddenly gained superpower status overnight?

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 01:45 PM
BTW, you may be in the minority if you think China is a third world country. Here is a recent article about a pew poll that said the majority of Americans feel that China is an economic Superpower.
I had no idea that 41% constituted a "majority". Must teach different math skills in New Jersey.


But I am sure they are all just a bunch of mouth breathers that only read Drudge and listen to Rush Limabugh.
They are. There are a lot of dumb people in this country. I don't think many would disagree. If you read Drudge, listen to Rush, and then follow their lines in any debate, by using nicknames drudged up by them, then yes, you are a complete moron who shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I guess there are a bunch of idiots all over the Globe.

You'd be correct again. Not everyone can be smart. The rule of averages just doesn't dictate that.

SnakeoilSeller
06-22-2012, 02:29 PM
Typical liberal playbook. First lie. Second when your lie is proved false, try to spin the lie. Third mock the person who proved you wrong. And libs can't even help but prove what liars they are by just opening up their mouths. Luckily lots of liberals "evolve" when they grow up and need to get jobs. Others then just go to work at College's and Universities and newsrooms all across the country.

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 02:38 PM
Typical liberal playbook. First lie. Second when your lie is proved false, try to spin the lie. Third mock the person who proved you wrong. And libs can't even help but prove what liars they are by just opening up their mouths. Luckily lots of liberals "evolve" when they grow up and need to get jobs. Others then just go to work at College's and Universities and newsrooms all across the country.

What exactly am I lying about? By saying Russia's not a superpower? You're killing me dude.

SnakeoilSeller
06-22-2012, 02:38 PM
I had no idea that 41% constituted a "majority". Must teach different math skills in New Jersey.



BTW, you may want to read the statement before claiming intellectual superiority. 41 is larger than 40. You do realize that correct.

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 02:39 PM
BTW, you may want to read the statement before claiming intellectual superiority. 41 is larger than 40. You do realize that correct.

It's not a majority though. A majority would have to be over 50%. More useless spin on your part.

SnakeoilSeller
06-22-2012, 02:42 PM
What exactly am I lying about? By saying Russia's not a superpower? You're killing me dude.

You also said China was not a SuperPower. You are arguing your belief, and claimed that I was a ****ing moron because I believe that Russia is still considered a Super Power. I get it, you don't. So let's not measure countries by resources such as oil. gold, natural gas or military might. Certainly let's not measure it by how much debt of ours that they own. How else you want to measure Super Power is up to you.

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 03:19 PM
You also said China was not a SuperPower. You are arguing your belief, and claimed that I was a ****ing moron because I believe that Russia is still considered a Super Power. I get it, you don't. So let's not measure countries by resources such as oil. gold, natural gas or military might. Certainly let's not measure it by how much debt of ours that they own. How else you want to measure Super Power is up to you.

China's not a superpower. They don't have a great military and don't have imperialistic ambitions. Russia's not a superpower, no one in their right mind (unless they were in tinfoil hat Red Dawn mode) would consider Russia to be a major player on the world stage. You do realize our military spending is pretty much more than the rest of the world combined, right? We're the sole superpower in the world.

China's more concerned with feeding their people than they are with conquering the rest of the world. They hold a decent amount of US debt, but the majority of our debt is held by the US government/taxpayer. Just the next boogeyman for the right to try and scare the public with, so you're really grasping for straws on both.

LANGER72
06-22-2012, 03:50 PM
China's not a superpower. They don't have a great military and don't have imperialistic ambitions. Russia's not a superpower, no one in their right mind (unless they were in tinfoil hat Red Dawn mode) would consider Russia to be a major player on the world stage. You do realize our military spending is pretty much more than the rest of the world combined, right? We're the sole superpower in the world.

China's more concerned with feeding their people than they are with conquering the rest of the world. They hold a decent amount of US debt, but the majority of our debt is held by the US government/taxpayer. Just the next boogeyman for the right to try and scare the public with, so you're really grasping for straws on both.



Russia has the largest untapped resouces in the world and are on the same level as the US in terms of technology. China owns the US financially, makes most of our stuff and they are building up their military with our technology. Both have enough nukes to wipe us off the map.
I agree with snake.

CedarPhin
06-22-2012, 03:57 PM
Russia has the largest untapped resouces in the world
It's not like we or our client states don't have anything. Africa is a treasure trove of untapped resources as well. We're not exactly hurting for these things, especially when we don't import any energy from Russia. Color me unimpressed.


and are on the same level as the US in terms of technology.
No they aren't. Our technology is head and shoulders above theirs. Have you ever been to Russia? I have, and it's not exactly Seoul.


China owns the US financially,
They own some of our debt, but most of our debt is sovereign debt. I also think the Japanese bought more of our debt than the Chinese this year. Maybe we should be on the lookout for broken nuclear reactors. The Chinese economy, if you haven't noticed, has also been starting to hit the skids as well. Demographics are their undoing.


makes most of our stuff
Actually, most of that production is shifting to other parts of the region as labor prices climb in China. Maybe we should worry about a rising Vietnam.


and they are building up their military with our technology.
A military that is at least 10-15 years behind us technologically. Maybe even 20.


Both have enough nukes to wipe us off the map.
And we have enough to blow them both off the face of the map.


I agree with snake.
Of course you do.

LANGER72
06-22-2012, 07:13 PM
It's not like we or our client states don't have anything. Africa is a treasure trove of untapped resources as well. We're not exactly hurting for these things, especially when we don't import any energy from Russia. Color me unimpressed.


No they aren't. Our technology is head and shoulders above theirs. Have you ever been to Russia? I have, and it's not exactly Seoul.


They own some of our debt, but most of our debt is sovereign debt. I also think the Japanese bought more of our debt than the Chinese this year. Maybe we should be on the lookout for broken nuclear reactors. The Chinese economy, if you haven't noticed, has also been starting to hit the skids as well. Demographics are their undoing.


Actually, most of that production is shifting to other parts of the region as labor prices climb in China. Maybe we should worry about a rising Vietnam.


A military that is at least 10-15 years behind us technologically. Maybe even 20.


And we have enough to blow them both off the face of the map.


Of course you do.


I have been to Russia 3 times, including some industrial non tourist regions. They have all the latest devices, technology, ..made abroad and in Russia...even in the small towns.

China has made leaps and bounds..they own a substantial amount of our debt, over 1 trillion dollars. I will walk that back a little. The chief reason their economy is struggling is because of the situation here. They depend on us as consumers.

We are talking about super powers...not Vietnam

Our military is facing budget cuts because of the deficits, they are increasing their spending on modern ships, planes, etc. The gap is closing rapidly.

And vice versa.

Of course we do..more often than not. Just because we see the US, the nations politics and programs in a different light, doesn't make us partisan.

SnakeoilSeller
06-24-2012, 12:23 PM
China's not a superpower. They don't have a great military and don't have imperialistic ambitions. Russia's not a superpower, no one in their right mind (unless they were in tinfoil hat Red Dawn mode) would consider Russia to be a major player on the world stage. You do realize our military spending is pretty much more than the rest of the world combined, right? We're the sole superpower in the world.

China's more concerned with feeding their people than they are with conquering the rest of the world. They hold a decent amount of US debt, but the majority of our debt is held by the US government/taxpayer. Just the next boogeyman for the right to try and scare the public with, so you're really grasping for straws on both.

Saying China owns a decent amount of our debt is like saying the Atlantic Ocean has a decent amount of water in it.

CedarPhin
06-26-2012, 06:57 PM
And soon they'll invade our shores, raping our beautiful blonde women, pillaging our cities and stock exchanges, all assisted/let in the country by radical UN shock troops. Is Russia a superpower yet? Maybe they'll save us.

CedarPhin
06-26-2012, 07:00 PM
Saying China owns a decent amount of our debt is like saying the Atlantic Ocean has a decent amount of water in it.

I had no idea that owning 8 percent of foreign debt suddenly constituted owning "the waters of the Atlantic". New Jersey math standards must be pretty far out, man. So like roughly a trillion in debt they own. The Japanese own 900+ billion of our debt. Should we worry about Emperor Hirohito, too? About 9.8 trillion is owned by the US Taxpayer.

CedarPhin
06-26-2012, 07:13 PM
I have been to Russia 3 times, including some industrial non tourist regions.
So have I. What I saw, was not impressed. Pretty ****ty, actually.


They have all the latest devices, technology, ..made abroad and in Russia...even in the small towns.
So you're honestly going to put Russian military technology on the same rung of the ladder as US military technology? I guess that's why we were ripped to shreds by MiGs in the Cold War? C'mon dude. Russia sucks, they're a 2nd rate country and always have been, even during their Imperial USSR days.


China has made leaps and bounds..
That's easy to do when most of your country lives in mud huts and live on farms. Again, not really impressed. Inflation's about to skyrocket there, and the Chinese demographics are not in their favor at all. The whole "one child policy" hasn't gone the way they really wanted, I don't think.


they own a substantial amount of our debt, over 1 trillion dollars.
And the US owns about 9.8 Trillion, Japan owns 900 billion. They're all still IOUs. It's like having a hemorrhoid and anal warts. They're still painful on your ass, it doesn't matter how you got them.


I will walk that back a little. The chief reason their economy is struggling is because of the situation here. They depend on us as consumers.

That's why China would never **** with us. We're their biggest customer.


We are talking about super powers...not Vietnam
Well, a lot of the Chinese production is moving to parts south, to places like Vietnam. The Chinese are being outsourced because their labor is getting too expensive. So maybe the Vietnam economy booms and we'll hear scare hawks talking about how Vietnam's going to take us over.


Our military is facing budget cuts because of the deficits,
Dude, our military is bigger/more well funded than the rest of the world combined . We really aren't at any risk of not being able to take anyone on. If anything, the biggest problem we face is the fact that our troops are scattered around the Middle East playing cops and robbers with Afghanis and various peoples in other parts of the world.


they are increasing their spending on modern ships, planes, etc.
So are we. Haven't you seen our new Stealth Ship that comes with magnetic rail guns? You're acting like our military is being stagnant, when in fact, they aren't.


The gap is closing rapidly.
Not really.


And vice versa.
Do you honestly think China would beat us in a war if we fought? Do you honestly think China would step out of character enough to fight us in a war? Look at their entire country's history, dating back thousands of years. They've never been a nation of imperialistic desires. The Mongols don't count.


Of course we do..more often than not. Just because we see the US, the nations politics and programs in a different light, doesn't make us partisan.

If you blame the other side consistently, and cannot see the faults/shortcomings of your own party, then you are the political equivalent to a "homer", which would make you a "partisan". It's nothing to be ashamed of, since there are die hard partisans on either side of the aisle, as every team has their own legion of batkid diehards. You guys just happen to be GOP homers, just as there are Democrat homers.

I, myself, don't affiliate with either party, since I have no use for either one. I'm pretty much a Libertarian.