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elite14eva
07-10-2012, 12:47 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/10/supplemental-prospect-gordon-runs-4-52-forty-at-pro-day/

ckparrothead
07-10-2012, 01:05 PM
Pulled up with a quad injury during the run. Suggested as a reason for it being a little worse than expected.

elite14eva
07-10-2012, 01:15 PM
do you think he gets drafted ck & if so by who?

ckparrothead
07-10-2012, 01:39 PM
At this point it's sounding like he'll definitely be drafted. He needed a blowout pro day to go in the 2nd round the way people were talking about for a little bit. With this I think he goes 3rd or 4th round. The character actually checks out better than you'd think, IMO.

Zounds
07-10-2012, 01:39 PM
Similar numbers to Brian Quick and Rueben Randle, who both went in the 2nd round of the 2012 draft, but both played full college careers.

ckparrothead
07-10-2012, 01:55 PM
I think if he had proper training and didn't blow a tire during the run, he probably would have had overall better results than Brian Quick and Reuben Randle. As things stand he did have better results than those two, but only by a margin, and I think his results would have been cleanly better if he had a more regular training process.

It was a good day, he did pretty much exactly as the scouts expected, but I think maybe some scouts were hoping to be pleasantly surprised and with that not happening it's hard to imagine him making good on the 2nd round talk that you heard out of some people prior to this. Like I been saying, I'll set the over/under at 3.5 for which round he goes in. I think the crowds will take the under and the sharps the over.

ROADRUNNER
07-10-2012, 02:29 PM
We might put in a 3rd, if were looking to get him............

KTOWNFINFAN
07-10-2012, 02:47 PM
Supplemental draft prospect Gordon runs 4.52 forty at Pro Day (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/10/supplemental-prospect-gordon-runs-4-52-forty-at-pro-day/) Posted by Evan Silva on July 10, 2012, 12:41 PM EDT
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/joshgordonpic1e1341934267428-1.jpg?w=187 Top supplemental draft prospect Josh Gordon conducted an individual Pro Day workout at the Houston Texansí indoor facility on Tuesday morning. Per Adam Caplan, most NFL teams in attendance sent two personnel evaluators (https://twitter.com/caplannfl/statuses/222706184866639872) Ė in most instances their college scouting director and one area scout.
The Philadelphia Eagles, Cleveland Browns, Buffalo Bills, and Dallas Cowboys were among the teams confirmed to have attended. Obviously, there were Texans officials on hand, too. In all, 21 teams (https://twitter.com/caplannfl/statuses/222734377300406272) showed up.
Caplan reports that Gordon ran a 4.52 forty-yard dash (https://twitter.com/caplannfl/statuses/222731205890674688) after measuring in at 6-foot-3 1/8 and 224 pounds. Gordon recorded a 36-inch vertical leap with a 10-foot, 1-inch broad jump. He did 13 reps on the bench.
While the forty time isnít quite as good as the pre-Pro Day hype might have suggested, itís still very fast for a human being who weighs over 220 pounds. Gordon is big, and he can run.

KTOWNFINFAN
07-10-2012, 02:49 PM
Not sure if this had been posted, but saw this and found it interesting that he was even slower than we thought. No way I am interested in spending anything higher than a 5th on this guy. JMO

hooshoops
07-10-2012, 02:51 PM
4.53 is pretty good for that size...but roberto wallace can run really well for his size...can the kid separate...does he have wasted movements in an out of his cuts how does he gear down...that's what i'd want to know

i'm sure with that size there's some stiffness in his hips...and that's ok...

ckparrothead
07-10-2012, 03:08 PM
He blew a tire during the run, pulling up with a quad injury. Supplemental prospects never run as well as regular Draft prospects, the training usually just isn't there. Gordon left school as early as March but he didn't choose an agent until May, has had financial issues which means he can't necessarily hire good trainers, and he only found out he'd be admitted into the Supplemental Draft in June. Not a recipe to get the kind of 4.4's and 4.3's you usually look for from the physical dynamos.

With a full and proper training regimen I'm sure he's down into the 4.4's.

The main thing to take from the pro day is that he showed exactly what he is. He did no better and no worse than was expected of him, which was for him to be a guy that is really big and really fast and has a lot of potential. He ran his routes despite the quad strain, caught everything without any drops, and I think he maintained 3rd or 4th round grades. I think he would have needed to blow some people away to get 2nd round bids.

The Dolphins were there. There are people that want to read into who exactly Miami sent, etc...and I don't think that's a good way to go about things. Miami trusts their scouts and Jeff Ireland has a bunch of Baylor connections.

Mr. Day
07-10-2012, 03:51 PM
I hope Dolphins pick him up, because I am not excited about what I am hearing about the receiving corps.

Lee2000
07-10-2012, 04:03 PM
Not sure if this had been posted, but saw this and found it interesting that he was even slower than we thought. No way I am interested in spending anything higher than a 5th on this guy. JMO

He pulled up with a quad injury and still ran 4.52.

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

I think you committ a third or fourth and go for it.

allsilverdreams
07-10-2012, 04:24 PM
how about a 5th or even a 4th

KTOWNFINFAN
07-10-2012, 04:28 PM
He pulled up with a quad injury and still ran 4.52.

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

I think you committ a third or fourth and go for it.

I am not going to be upset if we spend a third on this guy, but I really think that is a high risk low reward proposition. But Ireland has a lot more info on him than I, and he is very conservative with such decisions so if he thinks the guy is worth that much then I am on board. My thoughts are more with how committed the guy is to football. He has a lot of catching up to do before the last cut down day or we will have some really tough decisions to make. We have two other late rd WRs picked this year, and a 4th rounder from last year. You can't stash all those guys on the PS and you certainly can't stash a guy like Gordon on the PS so you are going to HAVE to make room for Gordon on the 53 no matter if he is ready for any PT or not, (which we all know he probably won't be by game one).

IMO there is more to it than just trying to figure out if he is worth a 3rd rd pick. You have to also figure out how you are going to keep him. The way I see it you are probably going to have to commit to keeping 6 WRs on the 53 which will cut down your number of TEs. In the GB system TEs were numberous, so I doubt 6 WRs is realistic. That means you have to be convinced that Gordon will have to be up to speed enough to be your 5th WR by game one. That is a lot to ask from a sup pick. I just don't see how he fits right now unless they see this guy as being REALLY special. JMO

hooshoops
07-10-2012, 04:32 PM
i pass on a high 3rd round pick...personally...lord knows we could use some talent but i pass...i'll get my wr in the 2013 draft...guys i feel better about anyways...i don't know what this kids got going b/t the ears

ckparrothead
07-10-2012, 04:58 PM
Evidently he ran his 1st forty without incident and ran anywhere from a 4.52 to a 4.55 depending on the stopwatch. It was his 2nd forty where he pulled up with a quad injury and ran a 4.60 because of it.

So he ran an uninjured 4.52 at 6031 and 224 lbs, as a Supplemental prospect without much training. I think scouts expect that translates to a guy that runs in the 4.4's with the proper amount of training.

MiamiDolfan85
07-10-2012, 05:00 PM
i pass on a high 3rd round pick...personally...lord knows we could use some talent but i pass...i'll get my wr in the 2013 draft...guys i feel better about anyways...i don't know what this kids got going b/t the ears

I agree....as much as we need talent(and we do), the wideout prospects in 2013 are far superior than Gordon. I suspect Miami will go WR fairly early next year, probably higher than the 3rd round.


Just gotta live with what we've got....

hooshoops
07-10-2012, 05:30 PM
i agree with training he's probably a late 4.4's guy...thats damn good wheels for that size...damn good

ANUFan
07-10-2012, 05:41 PM
I agree....as much as we need talent(and we do), the wideout prospects in 2013 are far superior than Gordon. I suspect Miami will go WR fairly early next year, probably higher than the 3rd round.


Just gotta live with what we've got....

Like who exactly? I don't follow college football much!

MiamiDolfan85
07-10-2012, 06:09 PM
Like who exactly? I don't follow college football much!As I have it, there's 5 potential first rounders next year. Robert Woods(USC), Justin Hunter & Da' Rick Rodgers(TEN), Marquess Wilson(WS), and Cal's Keenan Allen. Then theres a few guys in the 2nd and third rounds like Kenny Stills, Josh Boyce, Terence Williams to name a few. All I think are either as good, or better than Gordon.

allsilverdreams
07-10-2012, 06:37 PM
perhaps he slides down because of it

CANDolphan
07-10-2012, 07:26 PM
i agree with training he's probably a late 4.4's guy...thats damn good wheels for that size...damn good

Late 4.4? If training is the main issue, he's shaving a full tenth off that time, easily. So many times guys who are not used to watching these athletes day in and day out gets used to speed.

Remember Joe Haden? He was horribly trained and ran in the 4.5s. When he said screw it, and just ran like he normally does, guy runs a 4.4.

I can't stand the absolute obsessing with 40 yard dash time. I watched a lot of this guys highlights, as I sadly have no access to anything else, and the guy runs fluid and he runs fast. Stephen Hill is a fantastic comparison.

edit: Kenny Stills IS NOT a better prospect than Gordon. No way. No how.

MiamiDolfan85
07-10-2012, 07:33 PM
Late 4.4? If training is the main issue, he's shaving a full tenth off that time, easily. So many times guys who are not used to watching these athletes day in and day out gets used to speed.

Remember Joe Haden? He was horribly trained and ran in the 4.5s. When he said screw it, and just ran like he normally does, guy runs a 4.4.

I can't stand the absolute obsessing with 40 yard dash time. I watched a lot of this guys highlights, as I sadly have no access to anything else, and the guy runs fluid and he runs fast. Stephen Hill is a fantastic comparison.

edit: Kenny Stills IS NOT a better prospect than Gordon. No way. No how.
your opinion is as good as mine. But, also as welcomed as anyones. This is good for our site to have these voices.



It really makes some of us, if not all pay a little more attention to all the potential prospects for the Dolphins

hooshoops
07-10-2012, 07:38 PM
Late 4.4? If training is the main issue, he's shaving a full tenth off that time, easily. So many times guys who are not used to watching these athletes day in and day out gets used to speed.

Remember Joe Haden? He was horribly trained and ran in the 4.5s. When he said screw it, and just ran like he normally does, guy runs a 4.4.

I can't stand the absolute obsessing with 40 yard dash time. I watched a lot of this guys highlights, as I sadly have no access to anything else, and the guy runs fluid and he runs fast. Stephen Hill is a fantastic comparison.

edit: Kenny Stills IS NOT a better prospect than Gordon. No way. No how.

i was referring to a combine setting...guys run notoriously slower it seems at indy...low 4.4's yeah sure but at that size anything under 4.5 is great...plenty damn good enough...i don't know though that he's quite as explosive as stephen hill...i mean that kid looked like he had jet fuel on his back when he would come out of his cuts in combine field drills...

i'm pretty much with you when it comes to 40 times...if a guy can separate gets in and out of his cuts smoothly has burst and quick acceleration and doesn't have build up top end speed thats a lot of what i'm looking for...you add in under mid 4.5s and i feel pretty damn good...the combine and speed numbers just reinforce for me what i see on tape...if a guy plays faster than he runs like a kendall wright for instance that carries a whole lot more weight for me than manufactured track speed

GDL FinFan
07-10-2012, 08:17 PM
Perhaps worth taking the risk with a 5th round pick

ITS!MATEO
07-11-2012, 11:12 AM
Supplemental draft prospect Gordon runs 4.52 forty at Pro Day (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/10/supplemental-prospect-gordon-runs-4-52-forty-at-pro-day/)

Posted by Evan Silva on July 10, 2012, 12:41 PM EDT
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/joshgordonpic1e1341934267428-1.jpg?w=187 Top supplemental draft prospect Josh Gordon conducted an individual Pro Day workout at the Houston Texansí indoor facility on Tuesday morning. Per Adam Caplan, most NFL teams in attendance sent two personnel evaluators (https://twitter.com/caplannfl/statuses/222706184866639872) Ė in most instances their college scouting director and one area scout.
The Philadelphia Eagles, Cleveland Browns, Buffalo Bills, and Dallas Cowboys were among the teams confirmed to have attended. Obviously, there were Texans officials on hand, too. In all, 21 teams (https://twitter.com/caplannfl/statuses/222734377300406272) showed up.
Caplan reports that Gordon ran a 4.52 forty-yard dash (https://twitter.com/caplannfl/statuses/222731205890674688) after measuring in at 6-foot-3 1/8 and 224 pounds. Gordon recorded a 36-inch vertical leap with a 10-foot, 1-inch broad jump. He did 13 reps on the bench.
While the forty time isnít quite as good as the pre-Pro Day hype might have suggested, itís still very fast for a human being who weighs over 220 pounds. Gordon is big, and he can run.


Not very fast and has off the field issues.... PASS

CANDolphan
07-11-2012, 11:32 AM
your opinion is as good as mine. But, also as welcomed as anyones. This is good for our site to have these voices.



It really makes some of us, if not all pay a little more attention to all the potential prospects for the Dolphins

Yeah, I wrote that as I was going to bed, and I wanted to expand, but I'm simply too tired. Some focal points from my knowledge on both -

Stills is incredibly stiff, he's a body catcher, and I see VERY little burst out of him for the first 5 yards. That doesn't bode well for me, at all. Gordon has very nice upper body strength, seems to get out of jams easily (although, I'm not sure his competition was too strong) and he had a multitude of passes thrown behind/in front where he had to make body adjustment.

I absolutely love strong body language from my receivers. You either see it, or you don't. It's what allows truly elite athletes, like Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson... to become elite receivers. It allows mediocre athletes (such as Brian Hartline) to become "good/mediocre" receivers. It's body language like this that shows you an ability to adjust, to function with your hands/hips/feet, and secure a catch with your eyes. I suppose a better way to put it would be "high motor function". Well, that and soft hands.

ckparrothead
07-11-2012, 12:03 PM
SO....you're a fan of Kenny Stills, then? Heh. He's a guy I'm not convinced on but I'm surely watching in 2012. Wouldn't be the first body catcher that actually makes it as a pro.

As for body language, I think you're referring to something that others might refer to as body control or kinesthetic sense. And I agree, absolutely key for a receiver. I was once told that if Randy Moss hadn't gone the NFL receiver route, those that have seen him dive believe he could have competed as an Olympic high diver.

I like Gordon's balance and control in his running. Fast guys don't always have that. Fast guys also don't always have acceleration, which Gordon does. Big guys don't always show strength or physicality, but Gordon does. Also shows clean, natural hands. As I've said I see him somewhere between a Stephen Hill and a Tommy Streeter. Streeter would be at the low end as I don't think he controls his speed, I think he gets off the line terribly and will be a big target for jams, and he's not particularly good with the ball in the air. Stephen Hill is at the high end because he gets off the line great, has this phenomenal body control and acrobatic ability, can make circus catches, and when you get right down to it he's a legit 4.31 guy which is RARE. I don't think Gordon is at his level athletically. But then, he might be more advanced than Hill when it comes to running the route tree...we just don't know because we have zero optics when it comes to how much Gordon developed in his year at Utah.

hooshoops
07-11-2012, 12:30 PM
i think stills has some things going for him at the next level...some tools...not a natural hands catcher is a tough one to overlook though...but i see some tools there...

as for gordon i think he's a better more polished prospect than tommy streeter who i loathe...i don't see 4.31 speed on tape with stephen hill...i see fast but not 4.31

ckparrothead
07-11-2012, 12:31 PM
I do agree with the sentiment that there are other fish in the sea. I'm not sure I agree with Chad Reuter's suggestion that Gordon is better than any receiver that could go in the 2nd round next year.

I am intrigued with Terrance Williams, and he's always stood out to me when watching Kendall Wright and Robert Griffin, and heck he stood out to me in 2010 when trying to watch Josh Gordon. Williams actually has good size to him as I believe he's 6'1" or so...and man is he fast. You know I didn't particularly like RG3...and part of that was my feeling that between Art Briles' inventive offense with those ridiculously wide CFL type splits/spacing, and the track stars Kendall Wright and Terrance Williams, RG3 was made to look better than he really is.

After Terrance Williams there's Aaron Mellette, whom I also like a great deal. I think he's better than Brian Quick, certainly. Reasonable speed, great size and excellent balance and control, runs after the catch, a perfect Philbin type. I know there are NFL teams with borderline 1st round grades on Mellette.

However, after those two, it's true the seniors do suck. I'm not a big Cobi Hamilton fan. I love watching Tavon Austin but it's a simple fact he's a midget. I'm not sure Ryan Swope is any better than a Jordan Shipley. Denard Robinson is surely a project and it might be tough to convince him he's not a quarterback. There are some decent mid to late round rolls of the dice like Aaron Dobson...but the group after Williams and Mellette interests me very little.

Thankfully that's where you get the juniors to step in. Robert Woods is a valid NFL receiver at the very least. Justin Hunter has great potential, though I think Da'Rick Rogers is better right now. Gotta watch Rogers' attitude/character though as I've heard bad things. Marquess Wilson may be the best of the bunch. Andre Debose is FAST and talented.

Between Williams, Mellette, Woods, Hunter, Rogers, Wilson and Debose...you've got potentially a nice group of 1st through 3rd rounders in 2013. And you never know if there's another Josh Gordon hanging in there that we didn't know as much about but is destined to be considered in that group once the spotlight is shined on him.

Just saying Gordon is a nice talent but we shouldn't get trapped into thinking we've got to have him.

TedSlimmJr
07-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Stills is a hands catcher until he's required to make a catch in traffic... or on in-breaking routes/deep digs over the middle. A lot of receivers don't like to extend their arms away from their body and expose themselves in traffic, especially in college where you're still allowed to play a little defense. There ain't many that you'll find that are willing to do it.... it's one of the things that separates the really good one's from the rest of the bunch which is the majority.

It's one of the main reasons why I have Keenan Allen as the best underclassman WR prospect in the country, where a kid like Marquess Wilson becomes a body catcher just like Kenny Stills in traffic, and leads to dropping catchable balls.

Nublar7
07-11-2012, 02:33 PM
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/223095004099391488


Kicking over rocks on Josh Gordon in advance of tomorrow. An exec & a scout used same word: "Overhyped". Said he'd have gone R5-7 in April.

Ikema
07-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Someone with natural talent with an attitude? Who would think.

KTOWNFINFAN
07-11-2012, 03:05 PM
A couple of points/advantages I would like to make about the supplemental draft that I haven't seen brought up before. Both are obvious but sometimes go overlooked.

1. Draft picks are about getting value. It is widely accepted that most GMs will use a pick lower in the supp draft than they would have in the regular draft to get the same player. To me that equates to VALUE. If you have a need at a particular position (like WR for the fins) and you can get a 2nd rd value in the 3rd rd or 3rd rd value in the 4th, then you are using the pick at max value.

2. Normally in a regular draft a traded pick in this years draft is worth a pick in next years draft one round better (ex if we wanted someones 3rd rd pick this year we would probably have to give up next years 2nd). The obvious reason for this is a combination of two things, A) a player that I draft this year is going to have a full year of experience to help my team before I use that same pick next year, and B) the team wanting the pick is the team asking/needing the trade.

Now taking those two concepts into consideration I feel that the supplemental draft is a GREAT way to get maximum value out of your picks. Using a pick now for a player that you would be using a round higher to draft next year not only gives you a free year of NFL experience, but you get the player at a discount/round earlier. I and others have discussed how the player will be coming in late and will have less time to get up to speed since he has already missed all the minicamps, but actually we are getting him earlier not later.


Obviously the GM has to be comfortable with the player and know enough about him that he can be relatively sure the reason he is coming out early is not going to be a lasting issue such as bad attitude or drug abuse, or wife beater etc, but if all checks out I see the supp draft as a great way to gain max value out of your picks.

The other issue is how to insure that you have a way to stash the player on the 53, b/c most likely he will get stolen if you PS him. This might be a bigger issue with us, seeing as we already have several WRs headed in that direction.

hooshoops
07-11-2012, 03:08 PM
A couple of points/advantages I would like to make about the supplemental draft that I haven't seen brought up before. Both are obvious but sometimes go overlooked.

1. Draft picks are about getting value. It is widely accepted that most GMs will use a pick lower in the supp draft than they would have in the regular draft to get the same player. To me that equates to VALUE. If you have a need at a particular position (like WR for the fins) and you can get a 2nd rd value in the 3rd rd or 3rd rd value in the 4th, then you are using the pick at max value.

2. Normally in a regular draft a traded pick in this years draft is worth a pick in next years draft one round better (ex if we wanted someones 3rd rd pick this year we would probably have to give up next years 2nd). The obvious reason for this is a combination of two things, A) a player that I draft this year is going to have a full year of experience to help my team before I use that same pick next year, and B) the team wanting the pick is the team asking/needing the trade.

Now taking those two concepts into consideration I feel that the supplemental draft is a GREAT way to get maximum value out of your picks. Using a pick now for a player that you would be using a round higher to draft next year not only gives you a free year of NFL experience, but you get the player at a discount/round earlier. I and others have discussed how the player will be coming in late and will have less time to get up to speed since he has already missed all the minicamps, but actually we are getting him earlier not later.


Obviously the GM has to be comfortable with the player and know enough about him that he can be relatively sure the reason he is coming out early is not going to be a lasting issue such as bad attitude or drug abuse, or wife beater etc, but if all checks out I see the supp draft as a great way to gain max value out of your picks.

The other issue is how to insure that you have a way to stash the player on the 53, b/c most likely he will get stolen if you PS him. This might be a bigger issue with us, seeing as we already have several WRs headed in that direction.

i wish more people around here understood that...

Austin Tatious
07-11-2012, 04:37 PM
I would NOT put a day two pick on this kid. Those picks are way too valuable. Day 3, and I can live with it.

When Manny Wright came out, there was alot of talk about his talent, and Miami got him for a fifth. The kid had some natural talent and was a colossal bust. Say whatever you want, but supplemental picks typically have baggage (Bernie Kosar being a huge exception). Baggage drops you some.

You have a kid with mediocre production, who hasn't played in two years, who has been kicked out of one school and never played at the other before ending up in the supplemental draft. He has a Manny Wright feel to him. I'd say a fifth is about right. If Ireland thinks he is top shelf and expends a fourth on him, I would be ok with it. But a day two pick on this kid seems like a panic reach.

ckparrothead
07-11-2012, 05:49 PM
It's true that Supplemental picks generally have baggage. But if you really look over the last 20 years of Supplemental drafts, the players tend to be UNDER rated...not the other way around.

Jamal Williams is among the best nose tackles I've seen and he started 138 games for the Chargers. Mike Wahle was a fixture at tackle and guard for the Green Bay Packers, won a championship, and also started 138 games. You would think you'd have to pay 1st round picks to get that kind of player. But instead, they were drafted with 2nd round picks. The other two guys who were drafted in the 2nd round? Darren Mickell started 61 games at defensive end over his 9 year career. The only 2nd round bust was RB Tony Hollings.

Fast forward to the 4th, 5th and 6th rounds, where guys like Tito Wooten (47 starts), John Davis (26 starts), Jared Gaither (33 starts) and Milford Brown (47 starts) all end up pretty successful relative to draft position. With former 4th rounder Paul Oliver tossing in 12 starts of his own, with a lot more games as a sub package player, the only guys you can truly deem busts from the 4th through 6th rounds are J'Juan Cherry (4th round) and Manny Wright (5th round).

I left out the 3rd and 7th rounds but not necessarily because they're awful. Ahmad Brooks was taken in the 3rd round and he's a starter on one of the best defenses in football. Josh Price-Brent was taken in the 7th round and he hasn't started any games but he's played in 21 games in the two years since he was drafted, accounting for almost 400 defensive snaps with positive grades from PFF in both seasons, and I call that pretty excellent value for a measly 7th round pick, most of which end up off the roster let alone active on game day and playing.

Darren Benson and Jeremy Jarmon have been busts from the 3rd round. Harvey Unga was taken with a measly 7th rounder and hasn't played or done anything. Terrelle Pryor was taken 3rd round by the Raiders in a fit of the usual Raiders insanity, but you can hardly call him a bust yet as he's only been in the league one year.

Was Dave Brown a 1st round QB bust in the Supplemental Draft? Sure. But so were Dave Klingler, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer, Jim Druckenmiller, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, J.P. Losman, Jason Campbell, Jamarcus Russell and Brady Quinn. 1st round busts happen at that position in the regular draft as easily as the Supplemental Draft. If you consider some of the other 1st round QBs taken in the Supplemental Draft between Timm Rosenbach, Steve Walsh, Dave Brown and Bernie Kosar, those percentages seem to almost exactly approximate the percentages you see in the 1st round of the regular Draft at that position.

So let's recap.

1st Round - 1 Bust, 0 Rotational, 0 Starter, 0 Good Player
2nd Round - 1 Bust, 0 Rotational, 1 Starter, 2 Good Player (Jamal Williams, Mike Wahle)
3rd Round - 1 Bust, 1 Rotational, 1 Starter, 0 Good Player
4th Round - 1 Bust, 1 Rotational, 0 Starter, 1 Good Player (Tito Wooten)
5th Round - 1 Bust, 0 Rotational, 1 Starter, 1 Good Player (Jared Gaither)
6th Round - 0 Bust, 0 Rotational, 1 Starter, 0 Good Player
7th Round - 1 Bust, 1 Rotational, 0 Starter, 0 Good Player

I'm getting 50 game OL starters in the 6th round, starting left tackles in the 5th round, 50 game DB starters in the 4th round, and Ring of Honor type players in the 2nd round? Yeah, I'm going to be interested in the Supplemental Draft.

CedarPhin
07-11-2012, 06:31 PM
Walsh was a pretty decent backup. Kosar did well.

ckparrothead
07-11-2012, 06:38 PM
Walsh was a pretty decent backup. Kosar did well.

Over that era of QB drafting, take 4 guys in the 1st round, you get 1 guy that's good (Kosar, 108 starts, 82 PR), another guy that's a long term backup (Walsh, 38 starts, 66 PR), another guy that starts a lot (Brown, 60 starts, 68 PR), and one who busts out of the league quickly (Rosenbach, 20 starts, 66 PR)...that's pretty much almost exactly average for that era. So I'm not sure someone can tell me that Supplemental QBs have worse than normal success relative to draft position.

KTOWNFINFAN
07-11-2012, 10:33 PM
Over that era of QB drafting, take 4 guys in the 1st round, you get 1 guy that's good (Kosar, 108 starts, 82 PR), another guy that's a long term backup (Walsh, 38 starts, 66 PR), another guy that starts a lot (Brown, 60 starts, 68 PR), and one who busts out of the league quickly (Rosenbach, 20 starts, 66 PR)...that's pretty much almost exactly average for that era. So I'm not sure someone can tell me that Supplemental QBs have worse than normal success relative to draft position.
And add to that that you are getting to use the pick a season early. That normally cost you a round. As I wrote in earlier post, the supp draft is a great way to get max value out of your picks.

KTOWNFINFAN
07-11-2012, 10:37 PM
Why did this thread get moved to draft forum and the other thread on supp draft is still up in main forum??

sdjack605
07-11-2012, 11:35 PM
Would go a 3rd for him

ckparrothead
07-12-2012, 11:05 AM
And add to that that you are getting to use the pick a season early. That normally cost you a round. As I wrote in earlier post, the supp draft is a great way to get max value out of your picks.

Not a fan of that particular rationale. You're not getting a guy a year early. You're using a resource for a young player. If he plays 10 years with you and the guy you would have used that 3rd round pick on in 2013 would've played 10 years for you then you haven't received any more or less years of service from either player. Winning is going to be just as important tomorrow as it is today. The concept of time value of draft picks (e.g. a 2nd rounder today is worth a 1st next year) is a sham, a farce, a stupid approach which allows smart teams like the New England Patriots to consistently have an unfair advantage in the Draft every year, which in turn bails them out of really some pretty average draft evaluations/decisions.

MiamiDolfan85
07-12-2012, 07:06 PM
Yeah, I wrote that as I was going to bed, and I wanted to expand, but I'm simply too tired. Some focal points from my knowledge on both -

Stills is incredibly stiff, he's a body catcher, and I see VERY little burst out of him for the first 5 yards. That doesn't bode well for me, at all. Gordon has very nice upper body strength, seems to get out of jams easily (although, I'm not sure his competition was too strong) and he had a multitude of passes thrown behind/in front where he had to make body adjustment.

I absolutely love strong body language from my receivers. You either see it, or you don't. It's what allows truly elite athletes, like Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson... to become elite receivers. It allows mediocre athletes (such as Brian Hartline) to become "good/mediocre" receivers. It's body language like this that shows you an ability to adjust, to function with your hands/hips/feet, and secure a catch with your eyes. I suppose a better way to put it would be "high motor function". Well, that and soft hands.

Stills may catch a few too many balls with his body, but theres not ONE wideout highlight tape where a WR hasnt had some. As far as that goes, I'll wait on a response.


Stills reminds me so much of Chad Johnson. Now, he may not have Johnson's explosiveness, but don't sit there and pretend like this guy can't run. He averaged just under 14 yards per catch(13.9). Thats great for a WR. Especially in the Big 12 no less, against some of the most physical corners the NCAA has to offer. A majority of Stills plays occur over the top of the safeties. Whatever's left, comes from what he can do after the ball.


Stills runs NFL routes day in, and day out. As far as Im cocnerned, he's probably one of the top polished route runners the draft has to offer. And I dont care about speed(even though he has it), Reggie Wayne isn't the fastest reciever in the league either. But you know what, his 11 year career is based on two things alone. Route running, and his hands. Stills has both.


At worst, he'll have a very long, solid career.

j-off-her-doll
07-14-2012, 10:27 AM
Stills may catch a few too many balls with his body, but theres not ONE wideout highlight tape where a WR hasnt had some. As far as that goes, I'll wait on a response.


Stills reminds me so much of Chad Johnson. Now, he may not have Johnson's explosiveness, but don't sit there and pretend like this guy can't run. He averaged just under 14 yards per catch(13.9). Thats great for a WR. Especially in the Big 12 no less, against some of the most physical corners the NCAA has to offer. A majority of Stills plays occur over the top of the safeties. Whatever's left, comes from what he can do after the ball.


Stills runs NFL routes day in, and day out. As far as Im cocnerned, he's probably one of the top polished route runners the draft has to offer. And I dont care about speed(even though he has it), Reggie Wayne isn't the fastest reciever in the league either. But you know what, his 11 year career is based on two things alone. Route running, and his hands. Stills has both.


At worst, he'll have a very long, solid career.

Wait, what??

ckparrothead
07-14-2012, 08:18 PM
Wow, evidently Gordon failed a drug test associated with that bust where he was caught sleeping in a friend's car that had marijuana in it, and NFL people are saying he failed a drug test at Utah as well (though Gordon is denying that one).

Put down the weed, son!