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Dogbone34
07-15-2012, 01:23 PM
Mitt has a chance at a game changer for VP.

I think he should but I think he won't.

jared81
07-15-2012, 02:09 PM
I kind of hope she doesn't. Politicians are slimy people, I have too much respect for her to have to see her in a debate with a retard like joe Biden. Or have to defend a candidate like romney, who has taken positions on everything.

Tetragrammaton
07-15-2012, 04:36 PM
I kind of hope she doesn't. Politicians are slimy people, I have too much respect for her to have to see her in a debate with a retard like joe Biden. Or have to defend a candidate like romney, who has taken positions on everything.

What about her do you respect?

jared81
07-15-2012, 07:53 PM
What about her do you respect?


Shes not a politician, she has a terrific family story, shares smart, loyal and I believe she handled herself with class through a lot of things that weren't necessarily her fault. As far as government officials are concerned, she is in a class of her own.

Tetragrammaton
07-15-2012, 08:23 PM
Shes not a politician, she has a terrific family story, shares smart, loyal and I believe she handled herself with class through a lot of things that weren't necessarily her fault. As far as government officials are concerned, she is in a class of her own.

Why is loyalty a good quality? Wouldn't you prefer someone who does their own thing, and sought after being right, versus supporting the wrong course of action?

jared81
07-15-2012, 08:42 PM
Why is loyalty a good quality? Wouldn't you prefer someone who does their own thing, and sought after being right, versus supporting the wrong course of action?

Are you suggesting that loyalty is a bad quality for a person to have? There were many decisions that rice made/followed during her tenure. If you are suggesting that I shouldn't think highly of her based on one screw up (Iraq). I think she deserves more credit than that. I think in most political circles she is looked upon very fondly, much like Powell.

Tetragrammaton
07-15-2012, 08:50 PM
Are you suggesting that loyalty is a bad quality for a person to have? There were many decisions that rice made/followed during her tenure. If you are suggesting that I shouldn't think highly of her based on one screw up (Iraq). I think she deserves more credit than that. I think in most political circles she is looked upon very fondly, much like Powell.

I think loyalty is terrifying when it comes to Presidents. Loyal to pay back favors for campaign contributors, loyal to the party line, and so on.

That one screw up is a pretty big one. It casts a negative mark on everyone involved.

jared81
07-15-2012, 09:07 PM
I think loyalty is terrifying when it comes to Presidents. Loyal to pay back favors for campaign contributors, loyal to the party line, and so on.

That one screw up is a pretty big one. It casts a negative mark on everyone involved.


You have to put it into perspective. There are no politicians that I would consider quality individuals. They are power hungry and easily manipulated. Rice is one of the few I admire. I even kind of like people like Dennis kucinich. Not because I agree with him, but his beliefs are very principaled and he typically doesn't bend to pressure.

rob19
07-15-2012, 10:58 PM
I've said this on here before, but I think your giving the average Willard Mitt Romney supporter too much credit as open-minded, free thinking, culturally advanced citizens.

Let's play a game, it's called "Find the Black guy"

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/01romney10_spanarticleLarge-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/photo_133923982992810-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/AP120531016836-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/07thecaucusromneyderryblog480v2-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/FmrGovMittRomneyandwifeAnnwithsupporters-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/1337256000000cached-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/MittRomneyinNH-1.jpg

If you want all the elderly, & white middle-America vote you can get, you don't make a women your VP, you don't make a black man your VP, and you certainly don't make a black-woman your VP; regardless of qualifications. It's the sad, sad truth, & it won't happen.

Tetragrammaton
07-15-2012, 11:10 PM
Indeed, a black woman would cost Romney far too much of his base. It would erase his racial advantage over Obama.

Valandui
07-16-2012, 12:33 AM
I've said this on here before, but I think your giving the average Willard Mitt Romney supporter too much credit as open-minded, free thinking, culturally advanced citizens.

Let's play a game, it's called "Find the Black guy"

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/01romney10_spanarticleLarge-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/photo_133923982992810-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/AP120531016836-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/07thecaucusromneyderryblog480v2-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/FmrGovMittRomneyandwifeAnnwithsupporters-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/1337256000000cached-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/MittRomneyinNH-1.jpg

If you want all the elderly, & white middle-America vote you can get, you don't make a women your VP, you don't make a black man your VP, and you certainly don't make a black-woman your VP; regardless of qualifications. It's the sad, sad truth, & it won't happen.

There are some possible hispanics in the first one.

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------

Also, how would making more connections to Bush possibly help Romney?

Gonzo
07-16-2012, 12:42 AM
There are some possible hispanics in the first one.

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------
Also, how would making more connections to Bush possibly help Romney?
That's the big one as far as I'm concerned. It may not be fair, but the fact is, she was a big part of that mess. The more he can separate himself, the better off he'll be.

CedarPhin
07-16-2012, 01:07 AM
Maybe the GOP's decided the third time will be the charm with a Bush Administration.

Valandui
07-16-2012, 03:03 AM
Maybe the GOP's decided the third time will be the charm with a Bush Administration.

That's why Jeb is biding his time.

Dolphins9954
07-16-2012, 10:26 AM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/condiricemushroomcloud-1.gif



No Thanks.

jared81
07-16-2012, 10:31 AM
I've said this on here before, but I think your giving the average Willard Mitt Romney supporter too much credit as open-minded, free thinking, culturally advanced citizens.

Let's play a game, it's called "Find the Black guy"

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/01romney10_spanarticleLarge-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/photo_133923982992810-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/AP120531016836-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/07thecaucusromneyderryblog480v2-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/FmrGovMittRomneyandwifeAnnwithsupporters-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/1337256000000cached-1.jpg

http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/07/MittRomneyinNH-1.jpg

If you want all the elderly, & white middle-America vote you can get, you don't make a women your VP, you don't make a black man your VP, and you certainly don't make a black-woman your VP; regardless of qualifications. It's the sad, sad truth, & it won't happen.

lol. you guys are obsessed with race. what difference does it make what romneys supporters look like? herman cain had majority white support, your hero ron paul had majority white support. we all know that the black population will vote for obama, so will students, mainly because students dont like paying their tuition.

marco rubio is probably the republican favorite for VP consideration, he is hispanic. i dont hear anybody making snarky racial comments about conservatives voting for a romney/rubio ticket. i think many of you have you preconcieved ideas of what people will and wont vote for. rice is liked by much of the republican base, she would draw a ton of support.

Dolphins9954
07-16-2012, 10:38 AM
We've had enough of the race card politics. It's stupid and dumb.

rob19
07-16-2012, 10:39 AM
lol. you guys are obsessed with race. what difference does it make what romneys supporters look like? herman cain had majority white support, your hero ron paul had majority white support. we all know that the black population will vote for obama, so will students, mainly because students dont like paying their tuition.

marco rubio is probably the republican favorite for VP consideration, he is hispanic. i dont hear anybody making snarky racial comments about conservatives voting for a romney/rubio ticket. i think many of you have you preconcieved ideas of what people will and wont vote for. rice is liked by much of the republican base, she would draw a ton of support.

Lol alright if you say so, there's a difference between what should be and what is.

jared81
07-16-2012, 10:50 AM
Lol alright if you say so, there's a difference between what should be and what is.

another insightful post. please tell me since you know so much about race relations. why does marco rubio have such good standing with the "conservative" movement and the tea party, if they are all full of a bunch of bigots? why does herman cain do so well with white america? oh yea, i forgt, hes an uncle tom. blacks will never vote for repubican. i absolutley think republicans have dropped the ball with hispanics, because i genuinely think hispanics are conservative at their core.

just like when the congressional black caucus tries to use the race card, republicans do the boogey man thing as well. i just dont think the majority of people vote based on a persons race, or even religon (see mitt romney being a mormon). you are only looking at the extreme partisan wing that both sides have, most people live in the real world.

Dolphins9954
07-16-2012, 11:03 AM
The race card is a divisve tool designed to divide people and muddle the real issues facing the country.

My grandfather was over the other day and was telling us stories about the racism he went through when they first came to America back in the early 60's. My mom and her sister where beat up by black kids the first day of school because they were spanish. They were beat so bad that my aunt went blind in one eye. White people threw bricks through my grandfather's house because they were the only non-white people in the neighborhood. My grandfather and my uncle were beat up by white people on a job site because of their skin color. My uncle was stabbed with a knife by blacks because he walked down the wrong block. This was all in New Jersey too. Not some redneck backwood city.

We've come a LONG WAY with racsim and race relations in this country. Using these race card politics is a total disservice to all that we've accomplished over the years.

rob19
07-16-2012, 11:28 AM
another insightful post. please tell me since you know so much about race relations. why does marco rubio have such good standing with the "conservative" movement and the tea party, if they are all full of a bunch of bigots? why does herman cain do so well with white america? oh yea, i forgt, hes an uncle tom. blacks will never vote for repubican. i absolutley think republicans have dropped the ball with hispanics, because i genuinely think hispanics are conservative at their core.

just like when the congressional black caucus tries to use the race card, republicans do the boogey man thing as well. i just dont think the majority of people vote based on a persons race, or even religon (see mitt romney being a mormon). you are only looking at the extreme partisan wing that both sides have, most people live in the real world.

68% of the people who voted in the 2008 election were over 65. I'm not sure if you grasp the gravity of that. Most of them are nowhere near as into politics as you are, they might watch the evening news, but quite honestly the reason you have such a high elderly turn is because they frankly have nothing better to do. All a lot of all these old people see in Mitt Romney is that he's a republican who looks like a president; most of them don't care about his politics, and most of them don't care about his religion this time around, and that's because we have an even more divisive ploy at play, and that's that for the first time in history, we have an incumbent half-black president. Maybe Romney's Mormonism isn't as big a deal now, but religion has been an issue in past elections, probably most notably was all the fuss being made about Kennedy being a Catholic.

Inversely, I don't think the people who wouldn't vote for a black-woman aren't as "extreme partisan wing"ed as you might think. I heard a lot of people back in 08 that I would never have considered racist, or extremist, tell me they'd "never vote for a woman, just couldn't do it". My observation as an arm-chair amateur psychologist, would be that I think voting for a women still bothers a great deal of men subconsciously. There's probably been documented studies on this I'm sure, but I think subconsciously a lot of men have a problem seeing women in a position of power. I think it's the same reason that female stand-up comedians get heckled notoriously more than their male counterparts. I think a strong case for this could be made with the Sarah Palin/ McCain card of 08'. I thought Palin hurt him, because given the historical circumstance of Obama being the first partially black president, I think McCain would've been better off picking some white-guy. It was still a close race, but I thought he'd probably have done a lot better just running on tradition, or what has always been. Whether it was Palin being a woman, or if it was Palin being a complete dolt, that hurt McCain could be argued, I guess there's no way of really telling.

Ultimately this comes down to simple reasoning for me though, are the majority of people not bigoted? Of course, but, given that the majority of Romney supporters are white, would it not logically behoove him not only from a racial stand-point, but also a historical stand-point, to pick another white-male to be his running-mate?

Tetragrammaton
07-16-2012, 01:23 PM
Obama lost three to five percent of the vote in 2008 because of his race; it may even be bigger this time. Having a black Vice Presidential nominee might matter less than having her at the top of the ticket, but it is not a risk they should take.

jared81
07-16-2012, 02:21 PM
Obama lost three to five percent of the vote in 2008 because of his race; it may even be bigger this time. Having a black Vice Presidential nominee might matter less than having her at the top of the ticket, but it is not a risk they should take.

Is that net 3 to 5 percent? Because I think what he gained in the black vote certainly offset any bias. And if you agree he gained the black vote primarily on his race, wouldn't you considered just as bigoted as people who were prejudice against Obama?

Tetragrammaton
07-16-2012, 02:47 PM
Is that net 3 to 5 percent? Because I think what he gained in the black vote certainly offset any bias. And if you agree he gained the black vote primarily on his race, wouldn't you considered just as bigoted as people who were prejudice against Obama?

In the overall national vote, Obama lost three to five percent of the vote.

jared81
07-16-2012, 03:08 PM
In the overall national vote, Obama lost three to five percent of the vote.

source? i am not saying there arent people that didnt vote for obama just because he is black. i am saying the majority of people who think that wouldnt vote for a democrat anyways, because they dont like the platforms the democratic party represents. there were many black americans who voted for obama just because he is black as well. look at the mobilization in urban areas. the election was filled with people that never voted before, mostly black. did those people have some new found desire in geopolitics, i should say not, it was based on obamas skin

unfortunetly there are some people that look at race as a factor. i believe strongly that the majority of the electorate is color blind. i know i may get some crap for saying this but i believe there are just as many blacks that voted for him because of his race, as there are whites who voted against obama based on race. i understand the difference in population before you ask.

rob19
07-16-2012, 03:39 PM
unfortunetly there are some people that look at race as a factor. i believe strongly that the majority of the electorate is color blind. i know i may get some crap for saying this but i believe there are just as many blacks that voted for him because of his race, as there are whites who voted against obama based on race.i understand the difference in population before you ask.

What point are you trying to make? That some people prefer to vote based on racial affiliation? Mr. "the majority of the electorate is color blind"?

I really do believe that the majority of the electorate is open to voting for someone regardless of color. However, your also making my point by saying that there are still an impactful number of people, black or white, that vote based on nothing more than racial affiliation (or even traditional gender roles in this case), which is all that I've said from the beginning. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument as I can determine has essentially come down to "yea, but black people do it too!", I never said they didn't. All I said was it'd probably do Romney more good than bad to choose a white, male, running mate. It'd be more traditional, I think he'd be repeating the mistake of the 08' campaign.

rob19
07-16-2012, 04:02 PM
I can sense that your not willing to budge on the subject, which is fine, at least we've made our stances clear.

You think Mitt Romney, the Mormon, would be best served making a black women, Condoleezza Rice, his Vice-Presidential nominee. When historically, black people were banned from all Mormon churches until 1978, when in the face of losing their tax exempt status they had a "revelation", & believe that black skin is a curse from god. I don't.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Ultimately though, why I struggle to muster up a great deal of enthusiasm for this election, is because it's perfectly apparent to anyone who's following the money that both Romney & Obama are funded & propped up by the same banking corporations. No matter who wins, they do.

Dogbone34
07-16-2012, 04:11 PM
not a fan but it could be argued that she has more foreign policy and diplomatic experience than all of them

Valandui
07-16-2012, 05:09 PM
another insightful post. please tell me since you know so much about race relations. why does marco rubio have such good standing with the "conservative" movement and the tea party, if they are all full of a bunch of bigots? why does herman cain do so well with white america? oh yea, i forgt, hes an uncle tom. blacks will never vote for repubican. i absolutley think republicans have dropped the ball with hispanics, because i genuinely think hispanics are conservative at their core.

just like when the congressional black caucus tries to use the race card, republicans do the boogey man thing as well. i just dont think the majority of people vote based on a persons race, or even religon (see mitt romney being a mormon). you are only looking at the extreme partisan wing that both sides have, most people live in the real world.

The Mormon thing is really going to bite Romney in the ass, especially since there are no policy differences between him and Obama. It's going to come down to which one people are more comfortable with, the current president or that super-rich guy from the weird religion with a history of racism.

phinfan3411
07-16-2012, 05:11 PM
Not going to say that there is not racism, racism in voting, institutionalized etc. There is, i feel it goes all ways also, and as 9954 has said, it seems to be getting better over time.

I have always thought political ideals very much override any possible division amongst races. If for instance you were at a convention of some sort with a bunch of people you did not know, and just before lunch the conversation turned political, i feel the lunch seating would be divided by political affiliation, and not race.

phinfan3411
07-16-2012, 05:39 PM
68% of the people who voted in the 2008 election were over 65. I'm not sure if you grasp the gravity of that. Most of them are nowhere near as into politics as you are, they might watch the evening news, but quite honestly the reason you have such a high elderly turn is because they frankly have nothing better to do. All a lot of all these old people see in Mitt Romney is that he's a republican who looks like a president; most of them don't care about his politics, and most of them don't care about his religion this time around, and that's because we have an even more divisive ploy at play, and that's that for the first time in history, we have an incumbent half-black president. Maybe Romney's Mormonism isn't as big a deal now, but religion has been an issue in past elections, probably most notably was all the fuss being made about Kennedy being a Catholic.

Inversely, I don't think the people who wouldn't vote for a black-woman aren't as "extreme partisan wing"ed as you might think. I heard a lot of people back in 08 that I would never have considered racist, or extremist, tell me they'd "never vote for a woman, just couldn't do it". My observation as an arm-chair amateur psychologist, would be that I think voting for a women still bothers a great deal of men subconsciously. There's probably been documented studies on this I'm sure, but I think subconsciously a lot of men have a problem seeing women in a position of power. I think it's the same reason that female stand-up comedians get heckled notoriously more than their male counterparts. I think a strong case for this could be made with the Sarah Palin/ McCain card of 08'. I thought Palin hurt him, because given the historical circumstance of Obama being the first partially black president, I think McCain would've been better off picking some white-guy. It was still a close race, but I thought he'd probably have done a lot better just running on tradition, or what has always been. Whether it was Palin being a woman, or if it was Palin being a complete dolt, that hurt McCain could be argued, I guess there's no way of really telling.

Ultimately this comes down to simple reasoning for me though, are the majority of people not bigoted? Of course, but, given that the majority of Romney supporters are white, would it not logically behoove him not only from a racial stand-point, but also a historical stand-point, to pick another white-male to be his running-mate?

Where did you get that statistic on 2008 voters?

Not saying it's wrong, but if it is correct, that is amazing.

Tetragrammaton
07-16-2012, 08:41 PM
source? i am not saying there arent people that didnt vote for obama just because he is black. i am saying the majority of people who think that wouldnt vote for a democrat anyways, because they dont like the platforms the democratic party represents. there were many black americans who voted for obama just because he is black as well. look at the mobilization in urban areas. the election was filled with people that never voted before, mostly black. did those people have some new found desire in geopolitics, i should say not, it was based on obamas skin

unfortunetly there are some people that look at race as a factor. i believe strongly that the majority of the electorate is color blind. i know i may get some crap for saying this but i believe there are just as many blacks that voted for him because of his race, as there are whites who voted against obama based on race. i understand the difference in population before you ask.

I can't find the particular Nate Silver story I am referring to, but there was a lot of evidence of Obama underperforming compared to John Kerry among otherwise loyal Democrats. They tend to be white and working class.

The New York Times had a similar story.


Mr. Obama barely won this county in 2008 — 48.9 percent to John McCain’s 48.7 percent. Four years earlier, John Kerry had an easier time here, winning 52.3 percent to 47.2 percent over George W. Bush. Given Ohio’s critical importance as a swing state that will most likely be won or lost by the narrowest of margins, the fact that Mr. Obama’s race is a deal-breaker for even a small number of otherwise loyal Democrats could have implications for the final results.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/us/politics/4-years-later-race-is-still-issue-for-some-voters.html?pagewanted=all

Dogbone34
07-16-2012, 10:06 PM
probably doesn't matter, it will be rubio

CedarPhin
07-17-2012, 07:43 PM
probably doesn't matter, it will be rubio
Nope.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/17/2899884/bye-bye-marco-rubio-in-romney.html

Spesh
07-17-2012, 09:07 PM
probably doesn't matter, it will be rubio

Guessing Rob Portman myself.

Rubio would be great for Romneys ticket, but doubt it happens.

Tetragrammaton
07-17-2012, 09:45 PM
Add up the totals throughout the country, and racial animus cost Mr. Obama three to five percentage points of the popular vote. In other words, racial prejudice gave John McCain the equivalent of a home-state advantage nationally.
Yes, Mr. Obama also gained some votes because of his race. But in the general election this effect was comparatively minor. The vast majority of voters for whom Mr. Obama’s race was a positive were liberal, habitual voters who would have voted for any Democratic presidential candidate. Increased support and turnout from African-Americans added only about one percentage point to Mr. Obama’s totals.



http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/how-racist-are-we-ask-google/?src=me&ref=general