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Dolphins9954
10-06-2012, 10:06 AM
Well isn't that convenient? The Obama campaign desperately needed the last employment report to be released before the election to show that the unemployment rate had fallen below 8 percent, and somehow it magically happened. Even though non-farm payroll employment only increased by 114,000 last month (not enough to even keep up with population growth), the official unemployment rate fell from 8.1 percent to 7.8 percent. So how did that happen? Well, the unemployment number is not based on the survey of employers that showed that 114,000 jobs were added to the economy last month. Rather it is based on a survey of households. And that survey showed that the total number of Americans employed last month increased by a whopping 873,000 - almost eight times the number that the employer survey showed. That figure for September (873,000) was the biggest one month increase in 29 years. And it just happened to come at the exact perfect time for Barack Obama. So was there a jobs report conspiracy? Examine the evidence and decide for yourself.
The number of Americans with a job fell by 195,000 (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/CE16OV.txt) in July.

Then it fell by another 119,000 (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/CE16OV.txt) in August.

But somehow in September it miraculously exploded in the other direction and 873,000 jobs were added to the economy?

If you believe that, I have a bridge that I want to sell you.

Somehow, the largest increase in jobs in 29 years happened just when Barack Obama needed it the most.

Nah, that doesn't sound fishy to me at all.

We are being told that a big reason for the huge increase was the number of Americans working part-time for "economic reasons". That number surged from 8.0 million in August to 8.6 million in September.

Why the sudden jump?

Nobody can really explain it.

And if you look at the U6 unemployment rate, nothing has really changed at all. U6 is still at 14.7 percent just like it was last month.

But the media is not going to talk about the U6 rate. Instead, all of the headlines are going to be about "7.8 percent".

According to the survey of employers, the U.S. economy added fewer jobs in September than it did in August, and it added fewer jobs in August than it did in July.
So according to the survey of employers, the employment situation in the United States is getting worse.

But according to the household survey, we just had the greatest month of job creation since the first term of Ronald Reagan.
Something does not add up.

And as I have written about previously (http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-real-unemployment-numbers-are-worse-than-you-are-being-told), the unemployment rate would actually be up around 11 percent instead of 7.8 percent if not for the millions of workers that the government claims "dropped out of the labor force" over the past few years because they became too discouraged to look for work.

So unemployment in America is still a massive crisis (http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/why-does-our-society-look-down-on-unemployed-men-so-much), but the media is boldly proclaiming that things are getting better and that we are on the road to recovery.
Of course Obama looks like the cat who ate the canary today. He is just thrilled with the "7.8 percent" number.

But the truth is that according to the employer survey, job growth in the United States is actually slower than last year. The following is from the Calculated Risk blog (http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/10/employment-somewhat-better-also-more.html)....

All that said, the economy has only added 1.3 million payroll jobs over the first nine months of the year. At this pace, the economy would only add around 1.8 million private sector jobs in 2012; less than the 2.1 million added in 2011.

Are you starting to see why people are so skeptical of this jobs report?

When the "7.8 percent" figure was released, there was immediately a wave of shock and unbelief throughout the financial world and all over the Internet.

The following is a sampling of skeptical quotes about this jobs report....


http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/a-jobs-report-conspiracy


There has always been shenanigans when it comes to these numbers, especially with inflation numbers. But these numbers deserve a little more looking into.

TheWalrus
10-06-2012, 10:15 AM
That article is heavy on "something's fishy" and low on facts. There might be a jobs report conspiracy, you never know. But this guy didn't uncover it.

Dolphins9954
10-06-2012, 10:37 AM
The numbers deserve a lot more attention. He does put out numbers to go by, not saying his numbers are correct. But the household survey numbers are pretty dramatic as opposed to the non-farm payroll employment numbers. Something isn't adding up.

TheWalrus
10-06-2012, 10:50 AM
But without context it's hard to know what to make of those numbers. Is the household number supposed to be the same as the non-farm payroll number? If not the same, is it supposed to be close, or some ratio?

How can anyone say "it doesn't add up" without that context?

Dolphins9954
10-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Eshlemon would be good with this. He's good with economic numbers. If what the author said is true "the unemployment number is not based on the survey of employers that showed that 114,000 jobs were added to the economy last month. Rather it is based on a survey of households." then at least we could know thediscrepancy. Why were different numbers used? Because last months numbers were just about the same as September. And we didn't see any change in the unemployment. But this month we do? Like I said before it's worth taking a look at.

Spesh
10-06-2012, 11:06 AM
(To be fair, not all GOP members felt something underhanded was going on. As former Bush White House aide Tony Fratto (http://www.politico.com/arena/bio/tony_fratto.html) put it, " BLS (http://www.bls.gov/dolfaq/bls_ques26.htm) is not manipulating data. Evidence of such would be a scandal of enormous proportions & loss of credibility.")

That is pretty much the sentiment among economists.

"I would be very skeptical of any claims the job statistics are manipulated," Gary Burtless (http://www.brookings.edu/experts/burtlessg), an economist at the Brookings Institution, in Washington, D.C., told ABC News. "If they were, the administration's record so far in 2012 would undoubtedly look a lot brighter." Indeed, as Ezra Klein points out in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/10/05/september-jobs-report-debunking-the-jobs-report-conspiracy-theories/), the drop is a mere three-tenths of one percent, from 8.1 percent to 7.8 percent-not exactly a reason to crack open the Veuve Clicquot.

What's more, Burless said it's uncharacteristic of the Obama administration to lie about something like this. "Richard Nixon was notorious for distrusting the BLS, and he probably managed to frighten some long-time BLS employees," said Burtless. "But I have not heard any persuasive reports of statistical manipulation in the BLS, even during the Nixon administration. So it would be astounding if President Obama has been more successful along those lines than Nixon managed to be."

Guy La Bas, a managing director, fixed income strategy, at Janney Montgomery Scott (http://www.janney.com/), a Philadelphia brokerage firm, agreed. "I don't want to simply blast Welch since he's a very respected manager," he told ABC News in an email. "In this instance, he issued an off-the-cuff remark which I highly doubt is true, but that doesn't negate the value of his business opinions."

But, he added, "The Bureau of Labor Statistics, which conducts the monthly jobs survey is a non-partisan group of hard-working people that have the public trust. Considering this trust and the controls imposed on their processes, the chances that the BLS actively "manipulated" data are extremely low, even if some of the numbers underlying today's jobs report appear surprising. In my discussions with statistical organizations, political officials receive information about economic releases only after the numbers have been calculated, so there's no opportunity for the White House-or anyone else-to alter the results."


http://news.yahoo.com/does-white-house-manipulate-jobs-numbers-164654738--abc-news-deals.html;_ylt=AhuXtcYi9.6JPsf_KJ.nsnX9r.l_;_ylu=X3oDMTIybTFyOGZkBG1pdANIQ01PTCBvbiBhcnRpY2xlIHJpZ2h0IHJhaWwEcGtnA2lkLTI2OTMzODQEcG9zAzQEc2VjA2hjbQR2ZXIDOA--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqZjV2ZHU4BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDNTYwYjM3OTItNjdhZi0zNmRhLWI0MDQtOTYzYWIxZTkyYzhkBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdl;_ylv=3


Posted most of this in another thread, but decided to throw it up here. As bad as the Obama administration has been about transparency, i would hope would could all agree that if one President was going to commit a conspiracy against the job numbers it would be Nixon.

As well, alot of the conspiracy theory doesnt add up to me. If Obama was adjusting the numbers, wouldnt they have looked alot better for months now? 7.8 isnt exactly thrilling. If Obama wanted to wait to adjust them, wouldnt he do it next month right before the election? By then it would be to late to do much about it before people vote, now they have a month to dissect the numbers. Say what you will about Obama, but he knows if people catch him adjusting the numbers his re-election would go down the tiolet.

Obama caught a break, period. But its not like his campaign was on the ropes and his re-election was a distant hope. Losing a single of three debates isnt the end of the world, especially when he had this much of a lead on his opponent. The Romney campaign has been so inept that Obama thought he had already been re-elected when he walked off the plane in Denver. He got a wake up call, but it was hardly alarming. This jobs report was simply good luck. Or, if you want to look at it a different way, this was Romney's bad luck. And isnt that something his campaign has been plagued with?

Spesh
10-06-2012, 11:20 AM
It is not unusual for the number to vary greatly month to month, notes economist Joel Naroff (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Joel+Naroff) of Naroff Economic Advisers in Holland (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Netherlands), Pa. For example, in April the BLS reported that 342,000 fewer people had found jobs and in May it reported that 642,000 had found work.

“The unemployment rate will probably go back to 7.9 percent or maybe 8 percent next month,” he says.

This is not the first time aspersions have been cast on the Bureau of Labor Statistics, according to Lawrence Mishel, president of the Economic Policy Institute (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Economic+Policy+Institute), a liberal think tank in Washington (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Washington%2c+DC). In 1971, President Richard Nixon (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Richard+Nixon) was angered when the BLS attributed a drop in the unemployment rate from 6.2 percent to 5.6 percent in a month to a statistical fluke, says the EPI website.

Timothy Noah (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Timothy+Noah), writing in Slate, published excerpts from White House tape recordings in which Nixon and an adviser, Charles Colson (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Charles+Colson), decide that a Jewish cabal at BLS is trying to undermine the president's economic policy. “Well, listen, they are all Jews over there?” he asks Colson. Then, in an official act of anti-Semitism, Nixon tells Colson, “All right, I want a look at any sensitive areas around where Jews are involved, Bob. See, the Jews are all through the government, and we have got to get in those areas. We've got to get a man in charge who is not Jewish to control the Jewish … do you understand?”


http://news.yahoo.com/unemployment-rate-tampering-why-conspiracy-theorists-went-wild-193633824.html;_ylt=AuH3qLctN6JCvvItKTPlA15snwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTQxZDlqNzdtBG1pdANUaWNrZXQgTW9zYWljBHBrZwNlYmE4NmM4Mi0yOGFhLTM5ZGUtOWFiNy0xMGQ5N2NmZWQ0MGIEcG9zAzIEc2VjA01lZGlhTW9zYWljTGlzdExQQ0EEdmVyAzkyMz I2NjAwLTBmNDYtMTFlMi1iZjdiLTc2Yzk3YTU1ODkzZg--;_ylg=X3oDMTI0YXYyNGh0BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xlbGVjdGlvbnMyMDEyBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

Ilovemyfins4eva
10-06-2012, 12:19 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/does-white-house-manipulate-jobs-numbers-164654738--abc-news-deals.html;_ylt=AhuXtcYi9.6JPsf_KJ.nsnX9r.l_;_ylu=X3oDMTIybTFyOGZkBG1pdANIQ01PTCBvbiBhcnRpY2xlIHJpZ2h0IHJhaWwEcGtnA2lkLTI2OTMzODQEcG9zAzQEc2VjA2hjbQR2ZXIDOA--;_ylg=X3oDMTJqZjV2ZHU4BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDNTYwYjM3OTItNjdhZi0zNmRhLWI0MDQtOTYzYWIxZTkyYzhkBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdl;_ylv=3


Posted most of this in another thread, but decided to throw it up here. As bad as the Obama administration has been about transparency, i would hope would could all agree that if one President was going to commit a conspiracy against the job numbers it would be Nixon.

As well, alot of the conspiracy theory doesnt add up to me. If Obama was adjusting the numbers, wouldnt they have looked alot better for months now? 7.8 isnt exactly thrilling. If Obama wanted to wait to adjust them, wouldnt he do it next month right before the election? By then it would be to late to do much about it before people vote, now they have a month to dissect the numbers. Say what you will about Obama, but he knows if people catch him adjusting the numbers his re-election would go down the tiolet.

Obama caught a break, period. But its not like his campaign was on the ropes and his re-election was a distant hope. Losing a single of three debates isnt the end of the world, especially when he had this much of a lead on his opponent. The Romney campaign has been so inept that Obama thought he had already been re-elected when he walked off the plane in Denver. He got a wake up call, but it was hardly alarming. This jobs report was simply good luck. Or, if you want to look at it a different way, this was Romney's bad luck. And isnt that something his campaign has been plagued with?i would like to hope there is no conspiracy here as i am not a conspiracy guy, but u say 7.8 isnt exactly thrilling which ur right about, but compared to the last one at 8.1 that would be a positive.

also, 7.8 is what it was at when he came into office, so over 4 years he has not gotten the unemployment down so far, and for most of his time its been above the 8.0 threshold. certainly not a positive for him.

also the added overall jobs was far from stellar. although this report may not hurt him further, i dont believe its going to help him drastically.

Spesh
10-06-2012, 12:32 PM
i would like to hope there is no conspiracy here as i am not a conspiracy guy, but u say 7.8 isnt exactly thrilling which ur right about, but compared to the last one at 8.1 that would be a positive.

also, 7.8 is what it was at when he came into office, so over 4 years he has not gotten the unemployment down so far, and for most of his time its been above the 8.0 threshold. certainly not a positive for him.

also the added overall jobs was far from stellar. although this report may not hurt him further, i dont believe its going to help him drastically.

Never stated it would help get him re-elected, just stated the numbers were real and there is no conspiracy. In fact, im willing to bet this will hurt him, because the numbers will undoubtedly go up next month immediately before the election.

And yes, 7.8 is better then 8.1. But thats like declaring getting stabbed with a knife is healthier then getting shot with a gun. In the end, your still wounded.

irish fin fan
10-06-2012, 12:45 PM
When the facts don't match what your agenda then question the facts. I believe we are on a decline to the dark ages if the ultra right get their way. Ignorant people are perfect for their manipulation. The Nazis have returned.

When are the old republicans who will bargain and compromise for the sake of the country going to return. Bring them back and give us independents a real choice between two candidates in the polling both.

Dolphins9954
10-06-2012, 01:51 PM
ROSENBERG: I Don't Believe In Conspiracy Theories, But I Don't Believe In Today's Jobs Report Either


Headline numbers from today's jobs report (http://www.businessinsider.com/september-non-farm-payrolls-report-2012-10) looked great. Unemployment fell to 7.8 percent, non-farm payrolls came in line with expectations, and last month's number was revised up.This prompted some to claim the numbers were made up (http://www.businessinsider.com/jack-welch-jobs-report-obama-conservatives-laura-ingraham-allen-west-2012-10). President Obama said, "this morning we found out that the unemployment rate has fallen to its lowest rate since I took office."
But Gluskin Sheff's David Rosenberg (http://www.businessinsider.com/blackboard/david-rosenberg) didn't paint such a rosy picture of the report and had a very specific response to any such claim:

"That the 7.8 percent jobless rate takes it to the level that prevailed when the President took office in January 2009 has raised many an eyebrow. I don't believe in conspiracy theories. But I don't believe in the Household Survey either.

This notoriously volatile indicator has become even more so in recent months. It showed a 195K slide in July and a 119K decline in August, to only then reveal a massive 873K surge in September. So, aced on a household employment, the economy was in a recession in July and August and the miraculously boomed at its strongest rate since January 1983 (is Obama really the new Reagan)?

If it's too good to be true, then it probably is.

But this is why the headline unemployment plunged, and that is what is very likely to make the front pages of the Saturday newspapers. Digging beneath the veneer, the quality of these so-called Household jobs is called into question, seeing as part-time work for 'economic reasons' dominated with a 582K run-up in September. And upon closer inspection of the actual amount of slack in the labor market, the more inclusive U6 unemployment rate that does a much better job at capturing underemployment remain stubbornly stuck at 14.7%."


http://www.businessinsider.com/david-rosenberg-on-obama-jobs-report-2012-10

Maybe it's about picking which numbers to believe. The household indicators seem to be all over the place.

TheWalrus
10-06-2012, 01:54 PM
When the facts don't match what your agenda then question the facts. I believe we are on a decline to the dark ages if the ultra right get their way. Ignorant people are perfect for their manipulation. The Nazis have returned.

When are the old republicans who will bargain and compromise for the sake of the country going to return. Bring them back and give us independents a real choice between two candidates in the polling both.

Nazi's? :idk:

Ugh.

Invoking Nazi Germany in a political debate should be a TOS violation.

Anyway, thanks to Spesh for his links and quotes in this thread. It's always nice to be reminded of what a charmer Richard Nixon was. The fact that he became the respected "elder statesman" late in life is a ****ing embarrassment. When he died they should have done as HST suggested and burned his body in a trash bin and then dumped it in an open sewage canal.

CedarPhin
10-06-2012, 01:55 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2012/10/conspiracy-1.jpg

There's probably a weather machine the White House has too, right under the Denver Airport.

Tetragrammaton
10-06-2012, 02:47 PM
I think it is funny that people that do drywall or make milkshakes for a living like to pretend they understand the numbers we put out. It is insulting until you get used to it.

Dolphins9954
10-06-2012, 03:24 PM
I think it is funny that people that do drywall or make milkshakes for a living like to pretend they understand the numbers we put out. It is insulting until you get used to it.

One thing is for sure, drywallers know the economy still sucks. If anything we should have a better way of coming up with these numbers. Household indicators seem to be to volatile to make conclusions with.

phins_4_ever
10-06-2012, 05:38 PM
My goodness.
It must hurt some 'Americans' a lot that the number went down.

If any of you thought that over 30 consecutive months of adding jobs will not be reflected at one point or another in the unemployment rate then ....... (I censored myself).

I don't even think that any of you who are elevating this to a conspiracy theory or even mention it in the same sentence or remotely trying to suggest the possibility of a conspiracy theory really want the job numbers to be better as it would not fit the agenda. Which is in the same category as Mr Mitch McConnell who declared that the political priority should be making Obama a one-term President. Despicable, sad and extremely anti-american.

Secondly it seems that none of you actually know how this statistic is produced for decades and by whom and that any WH has no influence of the numbers or the publishing of these numbers since there are legal safeguards in place to prevent the power of the executive branch to influence suich numbers. If these numbers could have been that easily being manipulated I doubt that any President ever would have an unemployment rate of more that a lousy percent.

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------


One thing is for sure, drywallers know the economy still sucks. If anything we should have a better way of coming up with these numbers. Household indicators seem to be to volatile to make conclusions with.

Funny. You didn't complain about the way the numbers are being gathered before.

irish fin fan
10-06-2012, 05:39 PM
Nazi's? :idk:

Ugh.

Invoking Nazi Germany in a political debate should be a TOS violation.

Anyway, thanks to Spesh for his links and quotes in this thread. It's always nice to be reminded of what a charmer Richard Nixon was. The fact that he became the respected "elder statesman" late in life is a ****ing embarrassment. When he died they should have done as HST suggested and burned his body in a trash bin and then dumped it in an open sewage canal.

and now an attack on free speech. How very nazi like.

phins_4_ever
10-06-2012, 06:10 PM
Nazi's? :idk:

Ugh.

Invoking Nazi Germany in a political debate should be a TOS violation.

Anyway, thanks to Spesh for his links and quotes in this thread. It's always nice to be reminded of what a charmer Richard Nixon was. The fact that he became the respected "elder statesman" late in life is a ****ing embarrassment. When he died they should have done as HST suggested and burned his body in a trash bin and then dumped it in an open sewage canal.

He really didn't invoke Nazi Germany.

The term Nazi (National Socialism) is a political form of fascism (or a variety thereof).
A lot of scholars place Nazism into the right wing corner.
"Far right themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate over others and purge society of supposed inferior elements."

If I look at at the Republican Party and its most right wing supporters I can place Immigration Politics, attempted Voter ID law, support of the 1% and subsequent discrimination against the lower and middle class into the category of Nazism. Just because Nazi Germany made that term infamous the word or the political ideology of Nazism should not be solely attributed to Nazi Germany.

TheWalrus
10-06-2012, 08:51 PM
He really didn't invoke Nazi Germany.

The term Nazi (National Socialism) is a political form of fascism (or a variety thereof).
A lot of scholars place Nazism into the right wing corner.
"Far right themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate over others and purge society of supposed inferior elements."

If I look at at the Republican Party and its most right wing supporters I can place Immigration Politics, attempted Voter ID law, support of the 1% and subsequent discrimination against the lower and middle class into the category of Nazism. Just because Nazi Germany made that term infamous the word or the political ideology of Nazism should not be solely attributed to Nazi Germany.

No.

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that obscures what is OBVIOUS, which is that when people invoke the Nazis, or compare other people to Nazis, or compare some political position to Nazism, they are invoking Nazi Germany and all that entails.

The comparison -- in irish fin fan's example, of someone trying to gin up a job's report conspiracy -- is glib, and stupid, and utterly ****ing ridiculous. It trivializes not just genocide but world ****ing war.

Spoken as a liberal who hates the right wing.

Spesh
10-06-2012, 09:13 PM
No.

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that obscures what is OBVIOUS, which is that when people invoke the Nazis, or compare other people to Nazis, or compare some political position to Nazism, they are invoking Nazi Germany and all that entails.

The comparison -- in irish fin fan's example, of someone trying to gin up a job's report conspiracy -- is glib, and stupid, and utterly ****ing ridiculous. It trivializes not just genocide but world ****ing war.

Spoken as a liberal who hates the right wing.

Agreed.

There is no benefit to calling other people Nazis. All it does is inflame other poster and put people on the defensive. It should have no purpose in a serious discussion on this forum. We bash people for calling others socialists, we should bash people for yelling Nazi.

I dont think we should ban the word or slap the poster, i think people should just use their intelligence. Does it contribute to the conversation in a positive way? No? Move on. If you have to make that comparison to prove your point, your point probably isnt worth proving.

We have an entire f-you thread at the top of this forum that people can use to accuse each other of being Nazis to their hearts content. Go nuts and have fun. Just keep it in there.

phinfan3411
10-06-2012, 09:24 PM
When the facts don't match what your agenda then question the facts. I believe we are on a decline to the dark ages if the ultra right get their way. Ignorant people are perfect for their manipulation. The Nazis have returned.

When are the old republicans who will bargain and compromise for the sake of the country going to return. Bring them back and give us independents a real choice between two candidates in the polling both.

You're an independent??

Hey...i've been wrong before, but you do not seem like an independent.

phins_4_ever
10-06-2012, 10:06 PM
No.

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that obscures what is OBVIOUS, which is that when people invoke the Nazis, or compare other people to Nazis, or compare some political position to Nazism, they are invoking Nazi Germany and all that entails.

The comparison -- in irish fin fan's example, of someone trying to gin up a job's report conspiracy -- is glib, and stupid, and utterly ****ing ridiculous. It trivializes not just genocide but world ****ing war.

Spoken as a liberal who hates the right wing.

You are much better than that. I know that.
Don't make your assumption a fact. You don't know and you can't know if Irish was trying to invoke Nazi Germany with that comment.

If that comment is glib, stupid and utterly ****ing ridiculous I leave for others to decide.

I find it utterly ridiculous though to trash Irish for using a political ideology while the right is throwing around the words socialism and communism freely. I don't see your uproar there.

Germany used Nazism in a way the former USSR used the word socialism. In both countries killing for political purpose was on the daily agenda. In both countries millions of people died in an ideological , domestic war. What took in the USSR decades happened in Germany in a relative short span. Neither was politically what they claimed to be.
Americans don't know any socialism or communism unless it is associated with countries (regardless if they are or not) like Cuba, the former USSR, maybe Venezuela, the former North Vietnam and North Korea. Socialism and communism in the minds of Americans is indoctrination, imprisonment, killing for political purposes, no free speech, no human rights, no justice.
If - under your assumption that Irish was automatically invoking Nazi Germany because America doesn't know any better - a right winger uses the words 'socialist', 'socialism', 'communist' and 'communism' to describe a liberal and/or the President why aren't you outraged then?

Spesh
10-06-2012, 11:28 PM
You are much better than that. I know that.
Don't make your assumption a fact. You don't know and you can't know if Irish was trying to invoke Nazi Germany with that comment.

If that comment is glib, stupid and utterly ****ing ridiculous I leave for others to decide.

I find it utterly ridiculous though to trash Irish for using a political ideology while the right is throwing around the words socialism and communism freely. I don't see your uproar there.

Germany used Nazism in a way the former USSR used the word socialism. In both countries killing for political purpose was on the daily agenda. In both countries millions of people died in an ideological , domestic war. What took in the USSR decades happened in Germany in a relative short span. Neither was politically what they claimed to be.
Americans don't know any socialism or communism unless it is associated with countries (regardless if they are or not) like Cuba, the former USSR, maybe Venezuela, the former North Vietnam and North Korea. Socialism and communism in the minds of Americans is indoctrination, imprisonment, killing for political purposes, no free speech, no human rights, no justice.
If - under your assumption that Irish was automatically invoking Nazi Germany because America doesn't know any better - a right winger uses the words 'socialist', 'socialism', 'communist' and 'communism' to describe a liberal and/or the President why aren't you outraged then?

We object to it all the time on here. I went round for round with a guy in the two cents thread about it, which culminated in him losing his mind in the anything goes thread. I was pretty proud of that to be honest, it was highly amusing.

Believe it or not, this part of Finheaven isnt intended for finger pointing and name calling. Its made for discussions. Granted, name calling and finger pointing have become the norm, but when it gets out of hand people get banned. Why anyone wants to become the next SnakeOilSalesman or CashinFist is beyond me.

Throwing around names like Nazi, Socialist, or Communist is not for discussional purposes. Its to make people angry and defensive, which makes rational discussions impossible. How you choose to deal with those intellectually incapable of doing anything but that is your own prerogative. Personally, i recommend mockery. This is just my lay opinion, im not a mod and cant make policy. That said, all of it is getting really tiring and the Anything Goes thread is getting less and less use for its intended purpose. To me, the solution to both problems is obvious.

irish fin fan
10-07-2012, 12:56 AM
You're an independent??

Hey...i've been wrong before, but you do not seem like an independent.

To you I would not be considered middle of the road because you are just way over to the extreme right. I considered voting for McCann at one point. That ended when he choose Palin as his running mate. I would consider myself liberal on some issues, conservative on others.

irish fin fan
10-07-2012, 01:01 AM
No.

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that obscures what is OBVIOUS, which is that when people invoke the Nazis, or compare other people to Nazis, or compare some political position to Nazism, they are invoking Nazi Germany and all that entails.

The comparison -- in irish fin fan's example, of someone trying to gin up a job's report conspiracy -- is glib, and stupid, and utterly ****ing ridiculous. It trivializes not just genocide but world ****ing war.

Spoken as a liberal who hates the right wing.

No, I draw attention to it because during the rise of the fascists they would throw facts into the waste bin when it suited them and draw up their own version of history. Quite appealing to the masses when they were/are in economic misery.

phins_4_ever
10-07-2012, 01:06 AM
We object to it all the time on here. I went round for round with a guy in the two cents thread about it, which culminated in him losing his mind in the anything goes thread. I was pretty proud of that to be honest, it was highly amusing.

Believe it or not, this part of Finheaven isnt intended for finger pointing and name calling. Its made for discussions. Granted, name calling and finger pointing have become the norm, but when it gets out of hand people get banned. Why anyone wants to become the next SnakeOilSalesman or CashinFist is beyond me.

Throwing around names like Nazi, Socialist, or Communist is not for discussional purposes. Its to make people angry and defensive, which makes rational discussions impossible. How you choose to deal with those intellectually incapable of doing anything but that is your own prerogative. Personally, i recommend mockery. This is just my lay opinion, im not a mod and cant make policy. That said, all of it is getting really tiring and the Anything Goes thread is getting less and less use for its intended purpose. To me, the solution to both problems is obvious.

I do agree with you on that. And I don't throw anything like that around. I was also not defending Irish on using the 'Nazi'-term but simply pointing out that he did not say Nazi Germany nor do we know if he intended to make that comparison.
IMO besides throwing around terms like socialist, communist, Nazi and whatever the misquoting, using partial quotes or adding false information to somebody's post or using assumptions on someone's intention is throwing discussions into the crap hole just as well.

I personally don't care if any of these terms are being thrown around. Someone could call me a Nazi, a socialist, a communist or whatever. I have a thick skin and when people call me these things I know they run out of arguments and I just simply smile.

Now if your last sentence is indicating that you would/could leave (I am assuming) I put the virtual chain on you and tie you up here. No way Jose.

TheWalrus
10-07-2012, 02:00 AM
You don't know and you can't know if Irish was trying to invoke Nazi Germany with that comment.


Germany used Nazism in a way the former USSR used the word socialism.

You don't seem to know very much about the Nazis or the history of Nazism.

Nazism is synonymous with Germany because it was invented there. Originally the Nazis were simply one of many political parties in Germany and were called the German Workers Party. But in the aftermath of the humiliation of WWI, their brand of virulent nationalism struck a chord with the German public, and with Hitler as their inspirational leader began to gather steam in the 1920s.

It was Hitler himself who changed the name of the German Workers Party to the National Socialist German Workers Party, the German name for which was abbreviated NSDAP, or Nazi for short.

So you see what I mean by this all being a very silly argument you're making? When you reference the Nazis, people do not sit there and wonder what that means. It's clear. Even irish fin fan hasn't thrown his weight behind suggestion of yours that he could have been talking about any number of other Nazis.


If - under your assumption that Irish was automatically invoking Nazi Germany because America doesn't know any better - a right winger uses the words 'socialist', 'socialism', 'communist' and 'communism' to describe a liberal and/or the President why aren't you outraged then?

Because it's not equivalent. Socialism is a political philosophy. What happened in Russia, in China, in Cambodia and in several other places was an obvious and deliberate adaptation of that idea (which had been adapted into Marxism and then into Marxism-Leninism) that took many forms in many different countries.

When a right winger says Obama is a socialist, can anybody really be so dense as to assume they're only referring to Stalism, for instance, and not the quite different Maoism, which was different again from the Khymer Rogue, or Mussolini, or Castro, or Tito, or the various Kims of North Korea?

It's vague. That's why people when people hear "socialism" or "communism", what they think of is a totalitarian nanny state, without property rights, ruled by a cult of personality. That's what they assume about Obama, not that he's going to kill everyone who wears glasses (since that implies you have an education) as the Khymer Rogue did.

Nazism, on the other hand, refers to one country, with one philosophy, that is guilty of many clearly defined acts, including genocide. If you refer to it, you invoke not just a philosophy but those acts. The same would be true of calling someone a Stalinist, which also refers to a particular country at a particular time and therefore particular acts. To compare such unspeakable atrocities to a conspiracy theory about a jobs report is ridiculous. It's ignorant. It demeans history.

Spesh
10-07-2012, 03:36 AM
I do agree with you on that. And I don't throw anything like that around. I was also not defending Irish on using the 'Nazi'-term but simply pointing out that he did not say Nazi Germany nor do we know if he intended to make that comparison.
IMO besides throwing around terms like socialist, communist, Nazi and whatever the misquoting, using partial quotes or adding false information to somebody's post or using assumptions on someone's intention is throwing discussions into the crap hole just as well.

I personally don't care if any of these terms are being thrown around. Someone could call me a Nazi, a socialist, a communist or whatever. I have a thick skin and when people call me these things I know they run out of arguments and I just simply smile.

Now if your last sentence is indicating that you would/could leave (I am assuming) I put the virtual chain on you and tie you up here. No way Jose.

Eh? I suggested going into the Anything Goes Thread(and screaming about bullcrap in there).

But if that is some sort of objection i will say then: socialist. Challenged declared, go for that thread and rage.

Spesh
10-07-2012, 03:53 AM
No, I draw attention to it because during the rise of the fascists they would throw facts into the waste bin when it suited them and draw up their own version of history. Quite appealing to the masses when they were/are in economic misery.

Socialist.

Valandui
10-07-2012, 05:42 AM
The only difference between communism ans fascism is semantics.

phinfan3411
10-07-2012, 08:35 AM
To you I would not be considered middle of the road because you are just way over to the extreme right. I considered voting for McCann at one point. That ended when he choose Palin as his running mate. I would consider myself liberal on some issues, conservative on others.

You make a habit out of being right, huh?

I'm a extreme right winger that thinks our democratic governor of NY, Andrew Cuomo, is the best gov we have had in decades?

I'm an extreme right winger that believes in a women's right to choose, and gay rights?

I'm an extreme right winger that despises the two major parties, and won't even watch the debates until they let the libertarian into them?

I'm an extreme right winger for believing our war machine is a racket, believing we spend WAY TOO MUCH on defense, and subscribing to Gary Johnson's form of foreign policy?

Those beliefs that i argue for here everyday make me an extreme right winger only to an "independent" that is more to the left of every other independent in existence.
When is the last time you heard me back up either of the two major parties except for Cuomo?

I am fascinated by how many people insist they are independent, yet VERY CLEARLY are not, and every other post is as partisan as can be...yeah you're an independent alright.

phinfan3411
10-07-2012, 09:17 AM
Nazi's? :idk:

Ugh.

Invoking Nazi Germany in a political debate should be a TOS violation.

Anyway, thanks to Spesh for his links and quotes in this thread. It's always nice to be reminded of what a charmer Richard Nixon was. The fact that he became the respected "elder statesman" late in life is a ****ing embarrassment. When he died they should have done as HST suggested and burned his body in a trash bin and then dumped it in an open sewage canal.

I believe he has a history of this, i think another thread on WWII reenactment went south because of this, and if he cannot call them a nazi...well he can always go to the race card.

Actually, i should not single him out, he has a friend or two, whose posts are mirror images of the other, when their party or President (and they claim to be independent) get called out, they empty all of the "tools" in their partisan issued attack bag.

These people cannot seem to grasp that the OP is as independent as they come, and fired the same shots at our former President.

poornate
10-07-2012, 10:06 AM
Without reading this thread or its comments, i would like to say this... this is as dangerous an accusation as there is... there is no way fro these numbers to be massaged... and when the American public begins to distrust reality to this depth, we are in trouble...how do we take back the conversation from the ideologues when fact has no meaning, and proof is in the eye of the beholder? Couple this with the efforts to remove voters from the rolls of so many states and we have a crisis in the making... facts are not to be believed and the people with a voice are thinned to a bright, white line of narrow interests... media is a danger to, rather than an ally of, democracy in these recent times...

phinfan3411
10-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Without reading this thread or its comments, i would like to say this... this is as dangerous an accusation as there is... there is no way fro these numbers to be massaged... and when the American public begins to distrust reality to this depth, we are in trouble...how do we take back the conversation from the ideologues when fact has no meaning, and proof is in the eye of the beholder? Couple this with the efforts to remove voters from the rolls of so many states and we have a crisis in the making... facts are not to be believed and the people with a voice are thinned to a bright, white line of narrow interests... media is a danger to, rather than an ally of, democracy in these recent times...


I do not know enough about this report to comment one way or another, i will say that the numbers do not sound right to me, but you are absolutely right on the media.

Oh...and welcome back Nate.

irish fin fan
10-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Socialist.

I don't even think you know what the word means.

Dolphins9954
10-07-2012, 10:21 AM
My goodness.
It must hurt some 'Americans' a lot that the number went down.

If any of you thought that over 30 consecutive months of adding jobs will not be reflected at one point or another in the unemployment rate then ....... (I censored myself).

I don't even think that any of you who are elevating this to a conspiracy theory or even mention it in the same sentence or remotely trying to suggest the possibility of a conspiracy theory really want the job numbers to be better as it would not fit the agenda. Which is in the same category as Mr Mitch McConnell who declared that the political priority should be making Obama a one-term President. Despicable, sad and extremely anti-american.

Secondly it seems that none of you actually know how this statistic is produced for decades and by whom and that any WH has no influence of the numbers or the publishing of these numbers since there are legal safeguards in place to prevent the power of the executive branch to influence suich numbers. If these numbers could have been that easily being manipulated I doubt that any President ever would have an unemployment rate of more that a lousy percent.

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------



Funny. You didn't complain about the way the numbers are being gathered before.


Actually I have. I even started the thread with the "shenanigans" involved with unemploment numbers. Like many other economists have pointed out, over 800,000 jobs in September is a bit skewed and probably not true. Especially when you consider that the same household indicators had us in a recession for the past 2 months prior to that.

irish fin fan
10-07-2012, 10:27 AM
You don't seem to know very much about the Nazis or the history of Nazism.

Nazism is synonymous with Germany because it was invented there. Originally the Nazis were simply one of many political parties in Germany and were called the German Workers Party. But in the aftermath of the humiliation of WWI, their brand of virulent nationalism struck a chord with the German public, and with Hitler as their inspirational leader began to gather steam in the 1920s.

It was Hitler himself who changed the name of the German Workers Party to the National Socialist German Workers Party, the German name for which was abbreviated NSDAP, or Nazi for short.

So you see what I mean by this all being a very silly argument you're making? When you reference the Nazis, people do not sit there and wonder what that means. It's clear. Even irish fin fan hasn't thrown his weight behind suggestion of yours that he could have been talking about any number of other Nazis.



Because it's not equivalent. Socialism is a political philosophy. What happened in Russia, in China, in Cambodia and in several other places was an obvious and deliberate adaptation of that idea (which had been adapted into Marxism and then into Marxism-Leninism) that took many forms in many different countries.

When a right winger says Obama is a socialist, can anybody really be so dense as to assume they're only referring to Stalism, for instance, and not the quite different Maoism, which was different again from the Khymer Rogue, or Mussolini, or Castro, or Tito, or the various Kims of North Korea?

It's vague. That's why people when people hear "socialism" or "communism", what they think of is a totalitarian nanny state, without property rights, ruled by a cult of personality. That's what they assume about Obama, not that he's going to kill everyone who wears glasses (since that implies you have an education) as the Khymer Rogue did.

Nazism, on the other hand, refers to one country, with one philosophy, that is guilty of many clearly defined acts, including genocide. If you refer to it, you invoke not just a philosophy but those acts. The same would be true of calling someone a Stalinist, which also refers to a particular country at a particular time and therefore particular acts. To compare such unspeakable atrocities to a conspiracy theory about a jobs report is ridiculous. It's ignorant. It demeans history.

The Nazis, at their core, in believed only the strong survive and the weak deserve to die. They blindly assumed that of course they were strongest. Now you tell me which party that sounds like.

I'm reading bull**** on this forum about invoking Nazis. Yet in the past I've seen the term used for ridiculing some democratic policy, which completely makes me laugh. I hear people freely accusing people of been Communists, another system which was just as efficient in mass murder as Nazis. Mods, if I'm violating TOS then send me a message and I will have no problem refraining from using the term.

irish fin fan
10-07-2012, 10:36 AM
Actually I have. I even started the thread with the "shenanigans" involved with unemploment numbers. Like many other economists have pointed out, over 800,000 jobs in September is a bit skewed and probably not true. Especially when you consider that the same household indicators had us in a recession for the past 2 months prior to that.

Oh and the previous two months were revised upward too.

Dolphins9954
10-07-2012, 10:39 AM
Oh and the previous two months were revised upward too.

Not the household indicators.

irish fin fan
10-07-2012, 10:39 AM
I believe he has a history of this, i think another thread on WWII reenactment went south because of this, and if he cannot call them a nazi...well he can always go to the race card.

Actually, i should not single him out, he has a friend or two, whose posts are mirror images of the other, when their party or President (and they claim to be independent) get called out, they empty all of the "tools" in their partisan issued attack bag.

These people cannot seem to grasp that the OP is as independent as they come, and fired the same shots at our former President.

Yes, you are right the word Nazi should never mentioned in a discussion about a WW2 reenactment.

Regarding the race card I don't think I have used that yet. However, it's a good point I might have to pull that out in the future...

Spesh
10-07-2012, 11:42 AM
I don't even think you know what the word means.

Means the United States Military and space exploration, thank you very much.

Eshlemon
10-07-2012, 01:41 PM
Eshlemon would be good with this. He's good with economic numbers. If what the author said is true "the unemployment number is not based on the survey of employers that showed that 114,000 jobs were added to the economy last month. Rather it is based on a survey of households." then at least we could know thediscrepancy. Why were different numbers used? Because last months numbers were just about the same as September. And we didn't see any change in the unemployment. But this month we do? Like I said before it's worth taking a look at.

Pretty standard stuff all the time from the BLS and haven't seen any intention of them being involved in any shenanigans in the past and don't think so now. Just about all preliminary numbers get revised later date and Obama may have just caught a break as there is an anomaly in non-adjusted/seasonal adjustments. Last year from august to september we lost 286,000 private jobs and gained 983,000 government jobs the seasonal unemployment bump of 9 to 8.9%. This years preliminary august to september we lost 377,000 private jobs and gained 951,000 government with the bump up from 8.1 to 7.8%. Ususally this type of difference its easy to explain, more people stopped looking for work, but the preliminary labor participation was stated as increasing from 63.5% to 63.6% compared to being flat at 64.1% last year. And if I had to put money on it, would bet the preliminary participation rate gets lowered and continues trend downward over the previous 3 months of 63.8, 63.7, and 63.5 in August.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t17.htm
http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet
http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cesbtab1.htm

Dolphins9954
10-07-2012, 02:37 PM
Pretty standard stuff all the time from the BLS and haven't seen any intention of them being involved in any shenanigans in the past and don't think so now. Just about all preliminary numbers get revised later date and Obama may have just caught a break as there is an anomaly in non-adjusted/seasonal adjustments. Last year from august to september we lost 286,000 private jobs and gained 983,000 government jobs the seasonal unemployment bump of 9 to 8.9%. This years preliminary august to september we lost 377,000 private jobs and gained 951,000 government with the bump up from 8.1 to 7.8%. Ususally this type of difference its easy to explain, more people stopped looking for work, but the preliminary labor participation was stated as increasing from 63.5% to 63.6% compared to being flat at 64.1% last year. And if I had to put money on it, would bet the preliminary participation rate gets lowered and continues trend downward over the previous 3 months of 63.8, 63.7, and 63.5 in August.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t17.htm
http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet
http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cesbtab1.htm


And that's why you're the man.

phins_4_ever
10-07-2012, 02:48 PM
Eh? I suggested going into the Anything Goes Thread(and screaming about bullcrap in there).

But if that is some sort of objection i will say then: socialist. Challenged declared, go for that thread and rage.


:lol2: