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View Full Version : CLUMP or MERMAN HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



unclemonty
02-26-2004, 07:09 PM
Could you please help us with a question.
What are the cap savings from releasing Fiedler before AND after June 1st???? No one can agree on the numbers. We need an expert!!!

THX

wonderl33t
02-26-2004, 07:40 PM
I made this post yesterday man check it

http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33145

Merman
02-26-2004, 08:12 PM
Clump and I were just discussing this the other day and we didn't finish. We differ a few thousand on the signing bonus proration which is insignificant. We were also discussing bonus acceleration for not paying the option due 4/15/04 which does not make any difference if he is cut before 6/01. The big difference is the option bonus treatment. The Herald's numbers seem to be already prorating the $2 million option. This is the treatment I will give here as that is the reference in the other thread.

Base salary...................... $3.7 million
signing bonus proration..... 1.137
prorating option .................0.667

Total...................................$5.504

Less dead money (3yrs)......$3.412

Cap Savings........................$2.092

If you don't count the option at all the savings is reduced by $667k and if you include the option in total the savings are increased by $1.333 million.

Clumpy
02-27-2004, 12:53 AM
I concur, but the real savings come in 2005 & 2006. If Fielder is let go now, there will be no cap hit for him after 2004.

Aqua
02-28-2004, 10:24 AM
Actually Fiedler's deal was for five years with a $4M bonus so his dead money is $2.4M. You guys keeping the cap figures need to research that original deal further.

Base salary...................... $3.7M
signing bonus proration..... $800K
prorating option became roster bonus. ....$2.0M

Total...................................$6.5M

Less dead money (3yrs)......$2.4M

Cap Savings........................$4.1M

Merman
02-28-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Aqua
Actually Fiedler's deal was for five years with a $4M bonus so his dead money is $2.4M. You guys keeping the cap figures need to research that original deal further.


You are missing last year's $1.25 million roster bonus that was considered signing bonus.

Clumpy
02-28-2004, 10:51 AM
I also believe the Fins guaranteed his roster bonus. $312,500/season

DeDolfan
02-28-2004, 04:33 PM
The way I see it, if he is cut now, it's the better option in that his base is 3.7 (a savings) his amortized bonus of around 1.12 X 3 (yrs left on contract), pretty much equals the salary and gets washed out cuz all the bonus $$ counts this yr cuz it's b4 6/1. but we'll save his 2 mil roster bonus that's due, when, 4/1 or thereabout.

If we wait til 6/1 to cut him, then the 2 mil roster bonus will have been pd and spread over the 3 yrs remaining on his deal will count as a 1.8 mil hit for 04 and all the rest, about 3.6 mil will count next yr. It would seem that if they're going to dump him, it would behoove us to do it b4 the roster bonus come due.

Please tell me that I'm somewhere in the ball park on this Clump !!!
:D :D

Clumpy
02-29-2004, 12:41 AM
The $2 million bonus due in April is an option bonus that activates 2006. If he stays with Miami, it will not be paid. That would mean that amortization from 2006 would be accelerated into either 2004 or equally split between 2004 & 2005. Merman says it's accelrated into 2004 and I think it's the latter.

To figure cap savings, take the cap hit and subtract accelerated amortization:

$4.8125-$3.3375=$1.475 million

Then subtract the cost of the 52nd player (right now it's $235,000)

$1.475-$0.235= cap savings of $1.24 million

Since the option will not likely be paid, it's not necessary to include it in the calculations

DeDolfan
02-29-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
The $2 million bonus due in April is an option bonus that activates 2006. If he stays with Miami, it will not be paid. That would mean that amortization from 2006 would be accelerated into either 2004 or equally split between 2004 & 2005. Merman says it's accelrated into 2004 and I think it's the latter.

To figure cap savings, take the cap hit and subtract accelerated amortization:

$4.8125-$3.3375=$1.475 million

Then subtract the cost of the 52nd player (right now it's $235,000)

$1.475-$0.235= cap savings of $1.24 million

Since the option will not likely be paid, it's not necessary to include it in the calculations

The confusing part to me is that the way it sounds is that it would be paid if he is cut in 06. :confused: :confused:

Clumpy
02-29-2004, 12:54 PM
Well, players often have bonus money due early in there contracts that "activate" extra yrs on a contract. What it essentially does is tie the player contractually to the team longer. If Miami pays the option, Fielder is under contract thru 2006. If Miami does not pay the option then he's under contract thru 2005. However, the option is due in 2004.

Merman
02-29-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet

Since the option will not likely be paid, it's not necessary to include it in the calculations

Come on. First you want to show a roster bonus as guaranteed before it's offical and now you want to take an option out of team salary because it probably won't be paid??? Why bother with rules??? Just show every player's cap charge the way you expect it to turn out. :rolleyes:

Besides the "option amount" is suppose to be in team salary until renounced.

Clumpy
03-01-2004, 12:20 AM
Why do I bother then? :(

I try to explain in laymen terms so people can understand. I try to avoid using CBA contract language because it usually ends up killing threads and complicating the issue. I have a grad degree in Economics and I find the contract language confusing. I do things that try to explain what I feel has happened in order to explain discrepancies and I fully present my position. I try to use whatever resources I can to explain why I've taken a certain position. No matter what I do, other people always just try to shoot me down.

Clumpy
03-01-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Merman


Besides the "option amount" is suppose to be in team salary until renounced.


This is not what AdamJT has said. It's amortized. However, how can Miami be charged for an option bonus that is not paid. If they release him NOW, nothing from that $2 million option will be applied to Miami's cap.

Merman
03-01-2004, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet

This is not what AdamJT has said. It's amortized. However, how can Miami be charged for an option bonus that is not paid. If they release him NOW, nothing from that $2 million option will be applied to Miami's cap.

That is correct, if Miami cuts Fiedler nothing from the option will be applied to team salary. But since an amount of the option is or will be included in the cap on 3/03, if he is cut the option amount should be included in any cap saving calculation. Would there be no cap savings for players’ 2004 salary or roster bonus if they were cut before 3/03/04???

By saying it should not be included, I also understood that you thought that the option amount should not be included in the Team Salary total because it was "assumed" Fiedler was going to be cut. As it turns out he is not going to be cut now. This is precisely the reason I protest making changes until they happen.

Merman
03-01-2004, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
Why do I bother then? :(

I try to explain in laymen terms so people can understand. I try to avoid using CBA contract language because it usually ends up killing threads and complicating the issue. I have a grad degree in Economics and I find the contract language confusing. I do things that try to explain what I feel has happened in order to explain discrepancies and I fully present my position. I try to use whatever resources I can to explain why I've taken a certain position. No matter what I do, other people always just try to shoot me down.

Why do you bother??? If you are going to be high profile then you should expect some criticism both merited or not, constructive or not. What did you expect??? That others would just say Oh clump that’s great you are so smart and everything you say is right??? You have been on the boards long enough to know that no one is shooting you down. It’s called disagreement, discussion or debate. If you can’t take a little or any at all why do you bother???

As for using cap contract language, I agree that trying to explain the CBA in simple terms is desirable to help others understand. Yet I have found many times that the CBA is so complicated that using other words to explain it comes out wrong or is misunderstood. Add to that how many fools just state something as fact, believing it themselves, when they don’t know what they are talking about. Stating the actual contract language cuts out the 10 B.S. posts back and forth to none. Everyone can read it for himself or herself and even if they don’t understand it all it is there for everyone to evaluate.

The salary cap with all its rules that are contained in “The Collective Bargaining Agreement “ (CBA) is a very technical subject with many technical terms. These terms should be used and used correctly. By not using it people become confused. Like what the hell is “dead weight”??? Is that a player that does not perform well or is it signing bonus money that has become "dead money" because the player has been cut. How about "cap hit" is that the amount charged to team salary for the player's salary and bonuses or the amount of dead money that will be charged because a player is traded or released???

The salary cap is like anything else if you want to learn about it you will. When talking about the game of football using the correct term helps others to understand. We use the term “wide receiver” not the guy at the end of the line. We use the terms the “defense blitzed the quarterback,” not the guys without the ball went after the other team’s ball handler. So who is the ball handler the center or quarterback??? Beginners always have to learn the jargon of any technical subject and using it correctly will help all of us to learn quickly and correctly.

Now if you are going to take this post personally, don’t. This is just my opinion. Agree with it or not you are not going to hurt my feelings. :)

Clumpy
03-01-2004, 09:30 AM
Constructive criticism :up:

Condescending criticism :down:

I've noticed in the culture of "cyber-capologists" that some tend to come across as excessively harsh in their comments, whether justified or not. Their comments are often taken as "condescending" because of using CBA contract language. Many times people just don't respond because they cannot make an argument at the same level. I'm trying to introduce people to the subject and educate. Cannot start at too high a level (like my Immunology professor did) or there will only be a handful of posters using this forum. I do not want that.

I welcome criticism. I welcome other opinions. Sometimes it's necessary to make an educated guess in order to explain discrepancies and resolve differences. Through this sometimes comes the correct interpretation of a provision.

I hope you understand my position :)

DeDolfan
03-01-2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
Well, players often have bonus money due early in there contracts that "activate" extra yrs on a contract. What it essentially does is tie the player contractually to the team longer. If Miami pays the option, Fielder is under contract thru 2006. If Miami does not pay the option then he's under contract thru 2005. However, the option is due in 2004.

So, you're saying that we don't hAVE to pay it at all and if we don't then he's done in 2 yrs instead of 3? OK, that's better, so if we don't pay it, then his cap # will be a little over 4.8 this year. But if we just cut his arse now, it would be a toalt hit of 3.3+, the remaining amortized bonus for the 3 yrs left, but if we cut him after 6/1, it will be only 1.1+ this yr and 2.2+ next? if so, cut him after 6/1 and use that $$ on other fA cuts, eh?

Clumpy
03-01-2004, 11:13 AM
If you don't pay it, then bonus money that was amortized into 2006 would accelerated into either just 2004 or both 2004 & 2005. Either way, his cap number will increase by not paying the bonus


This is all moot because it looks like Fiedler will be getting a new deal that eliminates this bonus :tongue:

DeDolfan
03-01-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Merman


Why do you bother??? If you are going to be high profile then you should expect some criticism both merited or not, constructive or not. What did you expect??? That others would just say Oh clump that’s great you are so smart and everything you say is right??? You have been on the boards long enough to know that no one is shooting you down. It’s called disagreement, discussion or debate. If you can’t take a little or any at all why do you bother???

As for using cap contract language, I agree that trying to explain the CBA in simple terms is desirable to help others understand. Yet I have found many times that the CBA is so complicated that using other words to explain it comes out wrong or is misunderstood. Add to that how many fools just state something as fact, believing it themselves, when they don’t know what they are talking about. Stating the actual contract language cuts out the 10 B.S. posts back and forth to none. Everyone can read it for himself or herself and even if they don’t understand it all it is there for everyone to evaluate.

The salary cap with all its rules that are contained in “The Collective Bargaining Agreement “ (CBA) is a very technical subject with many technical terms. These terms should be used and used correctly. By not using it people become confused. Like what the hell is “dead weight”??? Is that a player that does not perform well or is it signing bonus money that has become "dead money" because the player has been cut. How about "cap hit" is that the amount charged to team salary for the player's salary and bonuses or the amount of dead money that will be charged because a player is traded or released???

The salary cap is like anything else if you want to learn about it you will. When talking about the game of football using the correct term helps others to understand. We use the term “wide receiver” not the guy at the end of the line. We use the terms the “defense blitzed the quarterback,” not the guys without the ball went after the other team’s ball handler. So who is the ball handler the center or quarterback??? Beginners always have to learn the jargon of any technical subject and using it correctly will help all of us to learn quickly and correctly.

Now if you are going to take this post personally, don’t. This is just my opinion. Agree with it or not you are not going to hurt my feelings. :)

yes, yes, YES !! Jamar Flectcher fit YOUR "definitiion" of dead weight!!

:D :D :D

Clumpy
03-01-2004, 11:20 AM
:rofl:

Merman
03-01-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by clumpedplatelet
If you don't pay it, then bonus money that was amortized into 2006 would accelerated into either just 2004 or both 2004 & 2005. Either way, his cap number will increase by not paying the bonus


This is all moot because it looks like Fiedler will be getting a new deal that eliminates this bonus :tongue:

The option bonus is not moot until Fiedler is cut or the deal is redone. An option amount, whether a prorated amount or the total, is included in team salary until renounced.

The cap number will not go up if the option is not paid. It goes up if the option is renounced, then the 2006 signing bonus portion is accelerated. If the option is not exercised (paid) or renounced it stays in team salary for the year. The next year a credit is taken for the amount carried the previous year. :tongue:

Clumpy
03-01-2004, 02:17 PM
I see said the blind man with the lights out and a blindfold on

Merman
03-01-2004, 06:06 PM
I thought it was : I see said the blind man to the deaf woman. :lol:

Clumpy
03-02-2004, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Merman
I thought it was : I see said the blind man to the deaf woman. :lol:


:lol:

DeDolfan
03-02-2004, 03:46 PM
Aaah, I just use a paper bag, if necessary !!! :D :D