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View Full Version : Guess what? Bush is a Flip-Flopper too!



DolFan31
07-06-2004, 11:35 PM
Since John Kerry is being portrayed as a flip-flopper...


BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]


BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories…for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "We haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]


BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]


BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important." [President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]


BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to…establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]


BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]


BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]


BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]


BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]


BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]


BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]


BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]


BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold singing cerem

themole
07-06-2004, 11:44 PM
Since John Kerry is being portrayed as a flip-flopper...


BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]


BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories…for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "We haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]


BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]


BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important." [President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]


BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to…establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]


BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]


BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]


BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]


BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]


BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]


BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]


BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]


BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold singing cerem


More poo from your local mullet wrapper. :roflmao:

ohall
07-07-2004, 09:09 AM
DolFan31, you do realize that the world changed after 9/11 right? Many of the things you list here were positions based on a pre-9/11 world.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
07-07-2004, 11:28 AM
I think the difference here is not whether Bush changed his mind on certain things, but whether he sticks to the issues he commits to. I don't care if John Kerry decideds to fly to Florida and then changes his mind and flies to Texas. I care whether John Kerry commits to an issue and then sticks to that commitment. And other than raising taxes, I have yet to see an issue that John Kerry will stick with through thick and thin. Are you ACTUALLY going to make the claim that Bush doesn't stick to a major issue regardless of public opinion? Your not REALLY going to make that claim are you?

DolFan31
07-15-2004, 10:51 PM
DolFan31, you do realize that the world changed after 9/11 right? Many of the things you list here were positions based on a pre-9/11 world.

Oliver...

Actually, most of it is post-9/11. Did you read the whole post or just the caps?


I think the difference here is not whether Bush changed his mind on certain things, but whether he sticks to the issues he commits to. I don't care if John Kerry decideds to fly to Florida and then changes his mind and flies to Texas. I care whether John Kerry commits to an issue and then sticks to that commitment. And other than raising taxes, I have yet to see an issue that John Kerry will stick with through thick and thin. Are you ACTUALLY going to make the claim that Bush doesn't stick to a major issue regardless of public opinion? Your not REALLY going to make that claim are you?

Im claiming that Bush is just as much of a flip-flopper as Kerry is. Kerry changes his mind based on becoming more informed of an issue. Its like being pro-life, then meeting and having conversations with pro-choice women and realizing that where you stood on that issue doesnt seem right to you anymore and thus changing your position to become pro-choice.

ohall
07-15-2004, 11:23 PM
Actually, most of it is post-9/11. Did you read the whole post or just the caps?


Dude I'm going to say this as nice as I can. Most of what you are using as evidence is #1 pre 9/11 logic, and #2 totally taken out of context.

Example, when the President says al-Qaeda and Saddam are the same, he means simply just because one funds terrorist this doesn't make that person any less guilty than the person who orginizes those terrorist. Just so you know it's a FACT Saddam was funding terrorist. 25k for every homicide bombing in Israel.

Keep thinking Bush is some kind of flip fopper and he didn't do what he did for the better of this country. That kind of sentiment is going to bite your political parties butt come November.

All I know is if your man Kerry had his way our soldiers would be fighting the war he voted for before he voted against with nothing more than a smile and good intentions.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
07-16-2004, 01:37 AM
Actually, most of it is post-9/11. Did you read the whole post or just the caps?



Im claiming that Bush is just as much of a flip-flopper as Kerry is. Kerry changes his mind based on becoming more informed of an issue. Its like being pro-life, then meeting and having conversations with pro-choice women and realizing that where you stood on that issue doesnt seem right to you anymore and thus changing your position to become pro-choice.

The difference is Bush changes his mind on procedural things...have a 9/11 commission/don't have a 9/11 commission, while KErry changes his mind on complete issues. Bush has always been 100% FOR the war, Kerry has gone both ways, Bush has always been 100% FOR tax cuts, he has always been 100% against abortion. Bush is NOT wishy washy on issues, if anything he's too rigid.

Kencoboy
07-16-2004, 02:45 AM
Bush is NOT wishy washy on issues, if anything he's too rigid.Most idiots are!!:D

Clumpy
07-16-2004, 03:04 AM
Most idiots are!!:D


Bush is as "idiot" as they come!

Kencoboy
07-16-2004, 03:13 AM
Dubya says,"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"-Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

I'm so proud to have this man as my leader!!;)

PhinPhan1227
07-16-2004, 10:37 AM
Dubya says,"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"-Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

I'm so proud to have this man as my leader!!;)

Well...even a broken clock is right twice a day. With Kerry, he'll never do anything wrong because he won't...do...anything. I don't really want 4 years of NO Presdient while we're at war.

ohall
07-16-2004, 11:27 AM
Dubya says,"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"-Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

I'm so proud to have this man as my leader!!;)

I guess you don't speak Texan then. Some of you ppl just don't get him. He is not the stupid or dumb person you think he is. He has a public image, and that image is a Texas politician.

I'm always amazed how so many of you just do not get that. And you think he is stupid or dumb!

It also never fails to amaze me how some of you have ZERO respect for the office of President.

Oliver...

Kencoboy
07-16-2004, 12:11 PM
Where I come from you have to earn respect to get any!

ohall
07-16-2004, 12:13 PM
Where I come from you have to earn respect to get any!

Sorry dude, the office of President should always get that respect. When you disrespect the office of President you are disrespecting the entire country.

No one is saying to not express yourself if you disagree, but one needs to do it with respect if they expect ppl to respect their disagreement. When ppl make it personal with a President most ppl just ignore them!

Oliver...

Kencoboy
07-16-2004, 12:24 PM
Sorry dude. I have respect for the OFFICE of the President. Of course that is an ideal. Unfortunately human beings enter that office with all that suggests. George W. Bush, his administration, and its polices right now to me do not deserve my respect. Respect goes both ways. To me, George W. Bush needs to start respecting the office of the President too.

Keep in mind that's my OPINION. You have a right to have one and express it too.

ohall
07-16-2004, 01:09 PM
Sorry dude. I have respect for the OFFICE of the President. Of course that is an ideal. Unfortunately human beings enter that office with all that suggests. George W. Bush, his administration, and its polices right now to me do not deserve my respect. Respect goes both ways. To me, George W. Bush needs to start respecting the office of the President too.

Keep in mind that's my OPINION. You have a right to have one and express it too.

They do deserve your respect because they are the office of President right now. When you disrespect them you disrespect yourself and your country and give aid to the enemy. I am amazed how some of you think of things. You say you respect something and then explain why you don't.

Disagree, express that disagreement with respect and then ppl will take what you say with the same respect you give it. If not it's just one big orgy of hate and incoherent expression of anger. Sorry to say this but that is where your political party is these days. They lost seats in congress and the senate and the Presidency during the 2002 elections and this same type of hatred is going to lose the Presidency once again. Your political party has become nothing more than a party of hate, anger, and irrational screamers yelling at Bush. Gore and Dean have dragged your party down to an all time low.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
07-16-2004, 01:31 PM
Sorry dude. I have respect for the OFFICE of the President. Of course that is an ideal. Unfortunately human beings enter that office with all that suggests. George W. Bush, his administration, and its polices right now to me do not deserve my respect. Respect goes both ways. To me, George W. Bush needs to start respecting the office of the President too.

Keep in mind that's my OPINION. You have a right to have one and express it too.

There were officers that I had no respect for when I served...didn't keep me from saluting the uniform. Same thing here. Hate the man, but always respect the office.

Kencoboy
07-16-2004, 01:35 PM
They do deserve your respect because they are the office of President right now. When you disrespect them you disrespect yourself and your country and give aid to the enemy. I am amazed how some of you think of things. You say you respect something and then explain why you don't.

Disagree, express that disagreement with respect and then ppl will take what you say with the same respect you give it. If not it's just one big orgy of hate and incoherent expression of anger. Sorry to say this but that is where your political party is these days. They lost seats in congress and the senate and the Presidency during the 2002 elections and this same type of hatred is going to lose the Presidency once again. Your political party has become nothing more than a party of hate, anger, and irrational screamers yelling at Bush. Gore and Dean have dragged your party down to an all time low.

Oliver...So now I'm a traitor because I don't care for Mr. Bush. Absolutely incredible!!

By the way, you're making a grand assumption about my political party - I have none and try to vote for the best person for the job. I happened to vote for Mr. Bush (or Dubya, I think I may be disrespecting myself, my country, my kids, my job, my dog, my spiritual being by saying that; oh well) in the last election because I could not fathom the possibility of Al Gore in the Oval Office. Don't go there.

George Dubya Bush, his administration and the Republican party have some of you so brainwashed into the "Liberals Bad" crayon-scrawled invective that you don't, won't, or can't accept what is going on around you.

If we're not careful, and what I mean by we is the people who really do care about the United States and the ideals it was built on, the Republican party lead by George W. Bush will drag this country to an all time low.

ohall
07-16-2004, 02:04 PM
So now I'm a traitor because I don't care for Mr. Bush. Absolutely incredible!!

By the way, you're making a grand assumption about my political party - I have none and try to vote for the best person for the job. I happened to vote for Mr. Bush (or Dubya, I think I may be disrespecting myself, my country, my kids, my job, my dog, my spiritual being by saying that; oh well) in the last election because I could not fathom the possibility of Al Gore in the Oval Office. Don't go there.

George Dubya Bush, his administration and the Republican party have some of you so brainwashed into the "Liberals Bad" crayon-scrawled invective that you don't, won't, or can't accept what is going on around you.

If we're not careful, and what I mean by we is the people who really do care about the United States and the ideals it was built on, the Republican party lead by George W. Bush will drag this country to an all time low.

Where did anyone say you were traitor? If you want to ignore the FACT that when the terrorist see the logic the DEM are pushing that doesn't give them comfort you are naive. Granted that is not the DEM's intention, but that is reality. Look at how Hamas has embraced Micahel Moore. Don't you think that man should be ashamed for what he has done to this country by making the movie he made? Any time a terrorist group wants to help distribute your movie IMO that person is not doing any favors for his country if that country is America. He's prob a freaking hero in Palastine.

Yeah, you're not a DEM, you type and repeat the same garbage they do, but you're not a DEM. And I have no doubt you want your wish to come true.

Oliver...

Kencoboy
07-17-2004, 03:46 AM
Where did anyone say you were traitor? If you want to ignore the FACT that when the terrorist see the logic the DEM are pushing that doesn't give them comfort you are naive. Granted that is not the DEM's intention, but that is reality. Look at how Hamas has embraced Micahel Moore. Don't you think that man should be ashamed for what he has done to this country by making the movie he made? Any time a terrorist group wants to help distribute your movie IMO that person is not doing any favors for his country if that country is America. He's prob a freaking hero in Palastine.

Yeah, you're not a DEM, you type and repeat the same garbage they do, but you're not a DEM. And I have no doubt you want your wish to come true.

Oliver...
And I'm sure if Al Gore were in the White House and 9/11 happened and the Afghanistan/Iraq paths were taken, the Conservatives would take the high road and support the President. And with the same logic one could argue that the Whitewater madness gave Al Quida and their fellow scumbag terrorists comfort also. Get real. The polarization of the parties dissuades the search for the truth, and right now the Conservative /Republican mindset is such that no one can question the intent or motive of the Bush administration without being labeled as unpatriotic or worse traitorous. Then someone like Michael Moore gets pissed off and fires off a movie like Fahrenheit 9/11 and all the Conservatives whine and cry that these are pure lies and flat out untruths. The louder they whine and the harder they cry leads me and many others to believe at least some of his arguments have hit close to home. The question must be asked, what if even some of the opinions he states are true. Are you willing to admit that our President might be influenced by Saudi money?? Or that the Iraq War was planned far before 9/11?? If so, there's a big problem in the White House, and this is not a partisan matter; in fact it should be the duty of every concerned patriotic American citizen to vote Bush out.

MrClean
07-17-2004, 02:08 PM
To quote a truely great American president, Theodore Roosevelt:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

MrClean
07-17-2004, 02:12 PM
Dwight Eisenhower's quote is also interesting:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."

Kencoboy
07-17-2004, 03:27 PM
To quote a truely great American president, Theodore Roosevelt:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
Thanks for joining in, and amen, brother.:)

DolphinDevil28
07-17-2004, 11:28 PM
This has GOT to be THE most hypocritical thread I have EVER seen.

Even liberal analysts in CNN, the mother of liberal networks, admitted that Kerry's flaw is that he seems to be a flip flopper.

I got news for them. There ain't no "seem" about it. He IS.

My favorite quote: "I actually did vote for the 87 billion dollars before I voted against it."

LOL!!!!

I like what GW said: If you disagree with Senator Kerry on a specific issue, you probably just caught him on the wrong day.

PhinPhan1227
07-19-2004, 12:49 PM
Dwight Eisenhower's quote is also interesting:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."

That's almost a direct theft of Sun Tsu's philosophy...there are no winners in war because war distracts us from peaceful efforts. Of course, that ignores the tremendous leaps in technology brought about by war. Just think, if it weren't for war we wouldn't have the computers we are using right now.

themole
07-19-2004, 05:30 PM
That's almost a direct theft of Sun Tsu's philosophy...there are no winners in war because war distracts us from peaceful efforts. Of course, that ignores the tremendous leaps in technology brought about by war. Just think, if it weren't for war we wouldn't have the computers we are using right now.


LOL...If it wasn't for war, we would still be worried what the Queen thought.

If it wasn't for war, we would be speaking german.

If it wasn't for war, the french would not have ever invented the white handkerchief.

If it wasn't for war, the medical profession would still be ranked right there with the barbers.

If it wasn't for war, peace wouldn't taste near as sweet.

General George Smith Patton, Jr. - “Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor bastard die for his country.”

General George Smith Patton, Jr. - “Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle.”

12, do you sometime wonder if we are the last of a dieing breed? Will those behind us in time, be willing to sacrifice for this country? According to some of the post I've seen written in this forum I'm beginning to doubt it. Perhaps it is those represented in red on the electorial college map that are still willing to serve valiantly.

DolFan31
07-20-2004, 01:55 PM
If it wasn't for war, we would be speaking german

It was war that brought about the Nazis in the first place.

But dont get me wrong, sometimes War is necessary, but sometimes war is not necessary(Vietnam, Arab-Israel conflicts, Iraq War 2). There are other solutions to conflicts that need to be tried before rushing into war. War must always be a last resort, unless your country is the one being invaded/attacked.

DolFan31
07-20-2004, 03:36 PM
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Section126
07-20-2004, 04:46 PM
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Your quote makes absolutely no sense......Bush is not "telling" us that we were attacked...or convincing us that we are under attack.....I got a hole in the ground in the middle of Manhattan that PROVES that we were attacked....ever heard of the World Trade Center?

Section126
07-20-2004, 04:50 PM
It was war that brought about the Nazis in the first place.

But dont get me wrong, sometimes War is necessary, but sometimes war is not necessary(Vietnam, Arab-Israel conflicts, Iraq War 2). There are other solutions to conflicts that need to be tried before rushing into war. War must always be a last resort, unless your country is the one being invaded/attacked.

As for the Nazi's getting into power.....it wasn't war that let them grab the helm....it was the ignorance of the German public fawning over a socialist program that Hitler promised......YES.....The Nazi's were socialists.....

As for point two.....we were attacked...that's why we are at war....how soon we forget...... :rolleyes:

My question is, what part of "We will fight them wherever they may lead us, until we eliminate them from this earth." don't you understand?

Section126
07-20-2004, 05:07 PM
Here is another quote....from the President's speech from Sept. 20, 2001:

"We will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. "- G.W. Bush

Everybody was fine with that then...but as soon as you realize that he meant what he said....Then you freak out.....This is why Most Democrats are not qualified to be president.....If we would have had President Gore...we would be living like the people in Israel.

themole
07-20-2004, 06:14 PM
There were officers that I had no respect for when I served...didn't keep me from saluting the uniform. Same thing here. Hate the man, but always respect the office.


:lol: Before I was in AIT at Fort Story Va. 1968, I had a six week lay over in Fort Eustus Va.. The U.S. Army couldn't fill the class, "61D20". Fort Eustus was an OCS Post, we were not required to salute anything below Captian. Some how I missed that bit of information, a casual stroll to the px that first day gave me tendonitous in the right elbow. :D

DolFan31
07-21-2004, 02:27 PM
As for the Nazi's getting into power.....it wasn't war that let them grab the helm....it was the ignorance of the German public fawning over a socialist program that Hitler promised......YES.....The Nazi's were socialists.....

As for point two.....we were attacked...that's why we are at war....how soon we forget...... :rolleyes:

My question is, what part of "We will fight them wherever they may lead us, until we eliminate them from this earth." don't you understand?

Did I say we werent attacked? Im saying some wars are not justified,some are.

Yes, the Nazis, while promoting their anti-communist/democratic/capitalist/socialist agenda, they were really a brand of socialism, like a mix of social-communist facism. War did bring about the Nazis however, World War I and the Treaty of Paris which ended WWI that bred about German nationalism(who felt Germany was disenfranchised due to the conditions under the Treaty) that led to the Nazis/Hitler's rise to power using German nationalism, much like Iraq War 2 is breeding Iraq nationalism but for different reasons.

DolFan31
07-21-2004, 02:55 PM
Bush's greatest flip-flop of all-time:

Bush, on Bin Laden's whereabouts:
"I dont know, I dont care. Its really not that important"

ohall
07-21-2004, 02:58 PM
Bush's greatest flip-flop of all-time:

Bush, on Bin Laden's whereabouts:
"I dont know, I dont care. Its really not that important"

I believe his point is simple, if UBL is caught al-Qaeda will still go on. The only way to really stop these radical muslims is to cut off their supply of $ and the invasion of Iraq was a huge step towards this goal.

And that's not a flip flop, that's a quote taken out of context!

Oliver...

DolFan31
07-21-2004, 03:16 PM
I believe his point is simple, if UBL is caught al-Qaeda will still go on. The only way to really stop these radical muslims is to cut off their supply of $ and the invasion of Iraq was a huge step towards this goal.

And that's not a flip flop, that's a quote taken out of context!

Oliver...
:shakeno:
IT IS A FLIP-FLOP! Bush said he wanted Osama dead or alive! True, Al Queda will most likely still go on with or without UBL, but hes still responsible for 3,000 deaths! That is a piss poor of an excuse for not catching the head of the 9/11 attacks as well as previous attacks against us. And stopping their funding is not enough to stop these guys. The War in Iraq has done NOTHING to stop or hault terrorism, only has stretched out our military and jhas taken up resources that were used in Afghanistan to find UBL and root out Al Queada cells. The fact we hadnt been attacked since is not an indicator of our success in the war on terror. It simply means that the terrorists are waiting for the right moment like they did on 9/11. You clearly have shown me that no matter what Bush says or does, you will support it, even if its wrong.

"I believe his point is simple, if UBL is caught al-Qaeda will still go on."

Thats like saying we shouldnt capture murderers and rapists and theives, because crimes will still go on.

Kencoboy
07-21-2004, 03:28 PM
:shakeno:
IT IS A FLIP-FLOP! Bush said he wanted Osama dead or alive! True, Al Queda will most likely still go on with or without UBL, but hes still responsible for 3,000 deaths! That is a piss poor of an excuse for not catching the head of the 9/11 attacks as well as previous attacks against us. And stopping their funding is not enough to stop these guys. The War in Iraq has done NOTHING to stop or hault terrorism, only has stretched out our military and jhas taken up resources that were used in Afghanistan to find UBL and root out Al Queada cells. The fact we hadnt been attacked since is not an indicator of our success in the war on terror. It simply means that the terrorists are waiting for the right moment like they did on 9/11. You clearly have shown me that no matter what Bush says or does, you will support it, even if its wrong.

"I believe his point is simple, if UBL is caught al-Qaeda will still go on."

Thats like saying we shouldnt capture murderers and rapists and theives, because crimes will still go on.
Actually you could go a step further and surmise that the fact we have not been attacked since is a sign that there is no realistic threat that exists. Look around you and think about the absolute lack of security that is present in our everyday lives. One could wreak havoc at any time if one desired, and the rective nature of our police would suggest that even if a threat existed, it could not be taken care of until after it happens. The idea that we are a safer nation after the witchhunts for Osama and Saddam is a joke. We are only as safe as we feel!!

ohall
07-21-2004, 03:30 PM
:shakeno:
IT IS A FLIP-FLOP! Bush said he wanted Osama dead or alive! True, Al Queda will most likely still go on with or without UBL, but hes still responsible for 3,000 deaths! That is a piss poor of an excuse for not catching the head of the 9/11 attacks as well as previous attacks against us. And stopping their funding is not enough to stop these guys. The War in Iraq has done NOTHING to stop or hault terrorism, only has stretched out our military and jhas taken up resources that were used in Afghanistan to find UBL and root out Al Queada cells. The fact we hadnt been attacked since is not an indicator of our success in the war on terror. It simply means that the terrorists are waiting for the right moment like they did on 9/11. You clearly have shown me that no matter what Bush says or does, you will support it, even if its wrong.

"I believe his point is simple, if UBL is caught al-Qaeda will still go on."

Thats like saying we shouldnt capture murderers and rapists and theives, because crimes will still go on.

No you took a quote totally out of context. Of course UBL is important to catch, but in the larger picture of terrorism which he was addressing with that comment there is an even bigger problem to address for this country and the world.

Keep spinning if you want to. Most ppl understand ppl who take things out of context have an agenda.

Oliver...

DolFan31
07-21-2004, 03:43 PM
No you took a quote totally out of context. Of course UBL is important to catch, but in the larger picture of terrorism which he was addressing with that comment there is an even bigger problem to address for this country and the world.

Keep spinning if you want to. Most ppl understand ppl who take things out of context have an agenda.

Oliver...

*Time out*
Lets keep this debate on one thread alright? ;)

DolFan31
07-21-2004, 03:45 PM
Actually you could go a step further and surmise that the fact we have not been attacked since is a sign that there is no realistic threat that exists. Look around you and think about the absolute lack of security that is present in our everyday lives. One could wreak havoc at any time if one desired, and the rective nature of our police would suggest that even if a threat existed, it could not be taken care of until after it happens. The idea that we are a safer nation after the witchhunts for Osama and Saddam is a joke. We are only as safe as we feel!!

Considering you have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning that you do of being a victim of a terrorist attack..

DolFan31
07-21-2004, 03:48 PM
and here's more Bush Flip-flopping!

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263
http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/000815.html
http://edwardpig.typepad.com/edwardpig/2004/05/yet_another_bus.html
http://www.dailyorange.com/news/2004/03/25/Opinion/Bushs.FlipFlop.On.Iraq-641267.shtml
http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1674
http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/george_bush_and_campaign_2004_/2004/03/a_major_bush_flipflop.php
http://www.node707.com/archives/001296.shtml

PhinPhan1227
07-21-2004, 08:10 PM
Did I say we werent attacked? Im saying some wars are not justified,some are.

Yes, the Nazis, while promoting their anti-communist/democratic/capitalist/socialist agenda, they were really a brand of socialism, like a mix of social-communist facism. War did bring about the Nazis however, World War I and the Treaty of Paris which ended WWI that bred about German nationalism(who felt Germany was disenfranchised due to the conditions under the Treaty) that led to the Nazis/Hitler's rise to power using German nationalism, much like Iraq War 2 is breeding Iraq nationalism but for different reasons.


GOOD!! Strong nationalism combined with a healthy economy and solid Constitution will bring exactly the kind of stability we are lookin for.

PhinPhan1227
07-21-2004, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE=DolFan31]and here's more Bush Flip-flopping!

QUOTE]


Bottom line...I can name 10-15 major policies that Bush has been behind since he ran for election the first time and has never wavered on(heck, I can even do so when he was a Governor). Can you name HALF that many policies for Kerry? If you can't than there is no comparison.

Bling
07-21-2004, 08:14 PM
Did you see F9/11, DolFan31? Truthfully, answer that question.

PhinPhan1227
07-21-2004, 08:38 PM
Considering you have a better chance of winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning that you do of being a victim of a terrorist attack..


The same could be said for the first victims of the Hollocaust. It all depends on whether the trend goes up or down.

DolFan31
07-23-2004, 10:29 AM
Did you see F9/11, DolFan31? Truthfully, answer that question.

Yes, why? I dont believe everything Michael Moore believes in or says, but I do think he has credible claims. Why does it matter?

DolFan31
07-23-2004, 10:32 AM
The same could be said for the first victims of the Hollocaust. It all depends on whether the trend goes up or down.

I just dont think we should all live in fear of another terror attack.

PhinPhan1227
07-23-2004, 12:57 PM
I just dont think we should all live in fear of another terror attack.


I don't live in fear of dying in a traffic accident...but I still buckle up when I drive.

DolFan31
07-23-2004, 01:36 PM
I don't live in fear of dying in a traffic accident...but I still buckle up when I drive.

Good point. I think however this color code system the DOHS issues everytime a terrorists farts isnt doing us any good. Its pretty much like crying wolf(whether or not the alerts are real or credible). I dont have any suggestions(not my job), but I think its really doing us a disservice each time an alert is issued because no one knows what to make of them. Something has to be done.

Section126
07-23-2004, 02:42 PM
Good point. I think however this color code system the DOHS issues everytime a terrorists farts isnt doing us any good. Its pretty much like crying wolf(whether or not the alerts are real or credible). I dont have any suggestions(not my job), but I think its really doing us a disservice each time an alert is issued because no one knows what to make of them. Something has to be done.


Something is being done...it's called re-electing the President.

Kencoboy
07-23-2004, 03:48 PM
I don't live in fear of dying in a traffic accident...but I still buckle up when I drive.
Bad point. When you get in your vehicle, you encounter an untold # of motorists with no motive to end your life (in theory). The chances of you encountering a terrorist are more than being struck by lighting. Do you also strap on a lighting rod when you walk outside, just in case???

DolFan31
07-23-2004, 03:51 PM
Bad point. When you get in your vehicle, you encounter an untold # of motorists with no motive to end your life (in theory). The chances of you encountering a terrorist are more than being struck by lighting. Do you also strap on a lighting rod when you walk outside, just in case???

Even better point. I realized just now that traffic accidents occur FAR MORE often than terror attacks(especially if you live here in the states). So its common sense one would buckle up. I apologize for my brain fart earlier.

DolFan31
07-23-2004, 04:07 PM
Something is being done...it's called re-electing the President.

Thats a huge step...continuing in the wrong direction.

What good does it do to issue color-coded terror alerts?

PhinPhan1227
07-23-2004, 05:19 PM
Bad point. When you get in your vehicle, you encounter an untold # of motorists with no motive to end your life (in theory). The chances of you encountering a terrorist are more than being struck by lighting. Do you also strap on a lighting rod when you walk outside, just in case???

If there's a thunder storm outside I tend to take precautions. Same thing when I drive a car. I don't change any part of my day to day life because of the threat of a terrorist act. But the precaution I'm taking is supporting a President who will be more effective in reducing the risk of attack, rather than supporting a PResidential candidate who wants the UN to protect me.

ohall
07-23-2004, 05:21 PM
Thats a huge step...continuing in the wrong direction.

What good does it do to issue color-coded terror alerts?

What's wrong with it?

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
07-23-2004, 05:31 PM
Good point. I think however this color code system the DOHS issues everytime a terrorists farts isnt doing us any good. Its pretty much like crying wolf(whether or not the alerts are real or credible). I dont have any suggestions(not my job), but I think its really doing us a disservice each time an alert is issued because no one knows what to make of them. Something has to be done.


To the best of my knowledge, the color coded alerts are for Security forces, and not the public. The media publicizes it, but that's not the intent.

ABrownLamp
07-23-2004, 05:36 PM
What's wrong with it?

Oliver...
Because it's a political tool. I don't care they can keep doing it all they want, but it's pretty obvious to me that its only purpose is to keep scaring citizens. I mean really, what do you do, or even better, what are you supposed to do differently when it turns red?

PhinPhan1227
07-23-2004, 05:38 PM
Because it's a political tool. I don't care they can keep doing it all they want, but it's pretty obvious to me that its only purpose is to keep scaring citizens. I mean really, what do you do, or even better, what are you supposed to do differently when it turns red?


Again, it isn't FOR the general public. It's for state, Federal, and local security forces. It's not meant for the Gen Pub because there's nothing the Gen Pub can do with it.

ohall
07-23-2004, 09:02 PM
Because it's a political tool. I don't care they can keep doing it all they want, but it's pretty obvious to me that its only purpose is to keep scaring citizens. I mean really, what do you do, or even better, what are you supposed to do differently when it turns red?

Well good for you. It sounds like you have an open mind, and know more than the paid Pro's. Super duper.

I know I appreciate the color code system. Especially now that I understand how it works. Try educating yourself better and maybe you won't be so frustrated.

Oliver...

muscle979
07-24-2004, 10:50 AM
Didn't the 9/11 bipartisan commission conclude that there was no significant link between iraq and alquaeda. yes I think it did. Wait I know that it did.

muscle979
07-24-2004, 10:51 AM
oops i can't spell alqaeda. Pretty bad for an army arabic linguist. I should work a little harder.

PhinPhan1227
07-24-2004, 10:58 AM
Didn't the 9/11 bipartisan commission conclude that there was no significant link between iraq and alquaeda. yes I think it did. Wait I know that it did.

Yep, and they also concluded that the PResident was given bad intel. If you're military you should already know that it's hard to blame a commander for the results of an op that was based on bad intel. Just out of curiosity...what's you MOS?

themole
07-24-2004, 03:04 PM
Yep, and they also concluded that the PResident was given bad intel. If you're military you should already know that it's hard to blame a commander for the results of an op that was based on bad intel. Just out of curiosity...what's you MOS?


:biggrin: :evil: