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View Full Version : SHAQ TO MIAMI: IT's OFFICIAL!



Fresh
07-08-2004, 03:01 PM
http://www.pe.com/sharedcontent/registration/register.jsp?fw=http://www.pe.com/sports/lakers/stories/PE_Sports_Local_2shaq_08.a13af.html


The Lakers have fielded about 17 or 18 offers, narrowed them down to about five or six and are now looking at a deal with the Miami Heat that would include former Clipper Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and probably a first-round draft pick, sources said. Odom is considered a base-year compensation player, meaning only a portion of his $9 million salary for next season is available. But all of it can be used by July 14. Grant makes $13.2 million. The Lakers would like rookie sensation Dwayne Wade, but the Heat won't part with him, sources said.

No comment...

TerryTate
07-08-2004, 03:39 PM
Speaking of Shaq, he walked up to my friend who works in a hotel lobby overnights at 3 am last night in Orlando. He was checking in some friends after a party....MY friend was in AWE, as I would be too....how freaky is that?

I'm not sure if i like this deal....

PG Wade
SG Jones
SF Butler
PF Haslem?
C SHAQ

burton87
07-08-2004, 04:06 PM
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2004/07/shaq-1.jpg

I take that offer in a second...


Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a first-round draft pick for shaq....

:up:

TerryTate
07-08-2004, 05:45 PM
Buss just said the HEAT are THE front runner...and he said SHAQ will definitely be traded...

t2thejz
07-08-2004, 05:51 PM
I dont like that just because I hate Shaq but it will make the Heat a better team. I dont know about the long run but if they get Shaq they will need some players to come off the bench and then they could make a run for the trophey. It would be interesting to see a dominating center in the east.

Fresh
07-08-2004, 06:16 PM
You know, this just AMAZES me. We have a core of 3 guys, and they only want ONE of them for the most dominating player(physically) that the league has ever seen. Another $1.6m would have to be included in this deal, so I'd expect Miami to throw in a scrub like Samaki Walker(s&t). I love LO, but imagine Shaq with Wade & Caron? That's disgusting.

1-Dwyane Wade, Damon Jones(part of the MLE)
2-Eddie Jones, Dorell Wright
3-Caron Butler, Rasual Butler
4-Antonio McDysse(part of MLE), Udonis Haslem
5-Shaq Daddy, Keon Clark(LLE)

That's a championship line-up. If we had Shaq in the middle, I'd love to gamble on Dyse.

One comment: I wouldn't trade Dwyane Wade for anybody in the NBA outside of KG and LeBron(I'm not a Bron fan, but his talent is disgusting). Call me crazy, but that's the damn truth.

SuavePhin
07-08-2004, 06:32 PM
I gotta agree, just ONE core guy for THE Dominate center a HUGE need for us, we gotta pull the trigger

SMadison29
07-08-2004, 07:25 PM
That rumor isn't giving enough up for Shaq. I should cost the Heat Odom, Caron Butler, & Grant.

Lakers:
PG-Payton & Fisher
2G-Kobe & Rush
SF-Odom & Butler
PF-Malone(with Odom as a back up)
C-Grant

Deez Nutz
07-08-2004, 08:14 PM
yea, the original deal that I heard was that it would include Odom, Butler, and either Grant, or Jones.

TerryTate
07-08-2004, 08:44 PM
That rumor isn't giving enough up for Shaq. I should cost the Heat Odom, Caron Butler, & Grant.

Lakers:
PG-Payton & Fisher
2G-Kobe & Rush
SF-Odom & Butler
PF-Malone(with Odom as a back up)
C-Grant

WRONG, NO way does Odom sit on the Laker bench behind a diminished KArl Malone....

Muck
07-08-2004, 09:55 PM
I'd HATE to lose Odom. And it would be sad to break up that young trio. They're fun to watch and root for. But for SHAQ, even at 32, you gotta do it.

On a side note, could you imagine this kind of deal happening in the NFL?? :lol:

Muck
07-08-2004, 10:00 PM
Man, Miami would be Superstar Central if Shaq came to town. Shaq, Dwayne Wade, Ricky, JT, Zach, Pat, Sam, THE World Champion Florida Marlins.....:woot:

Deez Nutz
07-08-2004, 10:48 PM
I'd HATE to lose Odom. And it would be sad to break up that young trio. They're fun to watch and root for. But for SHAQ, even at 32, you gotta do it.

On a side note, could you imagine this kind of deal happening in the NFL?? :lol:I would hate to give up Odom as well, but from what I've heard, if the Heat would get him, they would have 2 or 3 years where they would win now. Not have to build up the team.

ohall
07-08-2004, 10:50 PM
As Muck always says, please baby jesus please let this happen! LoL!

Oliver...

minus
07-08-2004, 10:56 PM
I would hate to give up Odom as well, but from what I've heard, if the Heat would get him, they would have 2 or 3 years where they would win now. Not have to build up the team.

2-3 years

Wright will be a force!

rafael
07-08-2004, 11:06 PM
I dont like that just because I hate Shaq but it will make the Heat a better team. I dont know about the long run but if they get Shaq they will need some players to come off the bench and then they could make a run for the trophey. It would be interesting to see a dominating center in the east.

I'm with you. It would kill me b/c I hate Shaq, but there is no doubt the Heat will be a better team.

Deez Nutz
07-08-2004, 11:14 PM
2-3 years

Wright will be a force!He will be a force, that's for sure. I'm just saying that Riley is probably thinking that if they get Shaq, they will win for the next 2-3 years. I agree with this trade on some levels. I think giving up Odom AND Butler is a bit much though. They're both young, talented players. I think if there's a way to keep Odom, that would be best. And I'm sure everyone else feels the same way. I understand they're desire to win now, that's what every team wants, but Wright could very easily be one of the top players in the league in a few years. He's already showing his potential by scoring 30 points in his first game with other pros. A trio of Wade, Wright, and Odom would be dominant for more than 3 years.

LIQUID24
07-08-2004, 11:19 PM
Jeez, what's in it for the Lakers? I'll disown them if they make this trade, I'll probably become a Clipper fan.. Obviously the Heat won't give up Wade, but they gotta throw in Butler if it's gonna happen IMO. Grant+Odom+Butler for Shaq is a bit more fair. It may seem like a lot to give up for you Heat fans, but try to look at it from a Lakers fan point of view. We want the whole farm if we're gonna give up Shaq.

Frankly, I'd rather not trade him at all. I dare him to sit out, I don't think he'll leave $30mill on the table.

catapano
07-08-2004, 11:29 PM
odum and grant and a first round pick for shaq this off west palm beach 12 news

has nothing to do with the dolphins hope you guys dont mind. any heat fans in the house?

AggieFin21
07-09-2004, 12:08 AM
I'm all for it. I say get him the F out of the western conference. (I'm a Rockets fan) As long as he stays away from Dallas and Sacremento, I don't care where he goes.

AggieFin21
07-09-2004, 12:10 AM
Frankly, I'd rather not trade him at all. I dare him to sit out, I don't think he'll leave $30mill on the table.Some how I don't think it would break Shaq to walk away from 30 mil. He's man enough to walk away and prove his point.

burton87
07-09-2004, 12:15 AM
WRONG, NO way does Odom sit on the Laker bench behind a diminished KArl Malone....

Agreed, I think hell probably retire...

LIQUID24
07-09-2004, 12:17 AM
Some how I don't think it would break Shaq to walk away from 30 mil. He's man enough to walk away and prove his point.
That's a helluva lotta money to walk away from, even for someone as rich as him. But yeah, he can afford to walk away if he wants. I just hope Rudy T. can convince him to stay.

Fresh
07-09-2004, 03:35 AM
Caron Butler is NOT in the deal.

Go to RealGM...the latest is Odom, Grant, and 2 1sts...same thing on Channel 7 News.

Fresh
07-09-2004, 03:38 AM
odum and grant and a first round pick for shaq this off west palm beach 12 news

has nothing to do with the dolphins hope you guys dont mind. any heat fans in the house?

Yeah, same thing from ESPN.

Nobody has Caron in the deal other than message board rumors and unreliable sources.

VERY interesting numbers for you Lakers fans claiming you're not "getting enough" with just Lamar Odom, a filler(Grant), and some low picks. Let's be fair and say after playing the point-forward for all of his career, Odom took until the middle of December to adjust to playing the 4.

His numbers from December-April(65 games)???

21.2 PPG, 10.4 RPG, 4.3 APG

Those numbers are better than Jermaine O'Neal's.

Prime Time
07-09-2004, 04:01 AM
The question I have is....If we make the trade, how many MORE games does everyone think we can win? And is that enough to break up the young trio?

A&O
07-09-2004, 04:33 AM
Three teams in the mix for the Shaq are the Heat, Pacers and Mavericks.

Which of the three has the best chance?

Last season all we needed was that big man in the middle. To learn that we may get the biggest bad as* on the block rocks! I bet you that if Shaq becomes a Heater that Riley will change hats and be our coach again.

If this deal happens, we will dominate the East and go deep into the playoffs- if not the Finals! Yeeessssssss!!!!!!

_

nick1
07-09-2004, 08:00 AM
as long as we don't trade Wade, but I also would hate to lose Odom, I wish we could somehow trade Grant, Jones and either Butler or a draft pick for Shaq

Muck
07-09-2004, 08:58 AM
I agree, I'd rather trade Butler. Maybe because I've never seen him while he was playing well. But Odom is just so dynamic. I'd love to keep him and possibly move him back to the 3. Ah, just wishful thinking.

Sucks that we're gonna lose Rafer Alston though.

Dolfan954
07-09-2004, 09:47 AM
I'd HATE to lose Odom. And it would be sad to break up that young trio. They're fun to watch and root for. But for SHAQ, even at 32, you gotta do it.

On a side note, could you imagine this kind of deal happening in the NFL?? :lol:
Exactly. WQAM wakes me up in the morning, and I thought I was dreaming when I heard it. This is HUGE. It would be like hearing that the Ravens traded Jonathan Ogden (arguably the most dominating LT in the NFL) to the Dolphins for Wade Smith, Seth McKinney, and a 3rd rounder. I say 3rd rounder because a late round 1st in the NBA doesn't count for much these days.

Dolfan954
07-09-2004, 09:49 AM
2-3 years

Wright will be a force!
Okay, dumb question here...

Who's Wright? :hmmm:

I'm only a casual basketball fan, so I don't know all the names.

ChambersWI
07-09-2004, 10:17 AM
Wright was the HEat's number 1 pick right out of HIgh school.

They interviewd Riley last night about it, and he just smiled, and said no comment. He's up to something.

Did anybody else notcie the dude on Sportcenter was trying to find a reason why this trade won't go through?(salaries match up fine)

I know it says Odom/Grant/1st round picks but I've also heard Grant/Jones/Butler/picks, and the most unlikely(but the best for us) Grant/Jones/2 future1sts/Zhi ZHi/Allen

rafael
07-09-2004, 10:17 AM
Wright is the high school kid we drafted in the 1st this year. Tall, skinny kid, lots of skills.

rafael
07-09-2004, 10:29 AM
Three teams in the mix for the Shaq are the Heat, Pacers and Mavericks.

Which of the three has the best chance?

Last season all we needed was that big man in the middle. To learn that we may get the biggest bad as* on the block rocks! I bet you that if Shaq becomes a Heater that Riley will change hats and be our coach again.

If this deal happens, we will dominate the East and go deep into the playoffs- if not the Finals! Yeeessssssss!!!!!!

_

It seems the Lakers are looking for a star to be included in the deal. Among the three teams, the only star that I've heard offerred is Odom. (reportedly, Dallas won't incude Nowitski and Ind. won't include Oneal) If that's true then Miami has the best chance b/c they are offerring the best player.

If Riley wants to keep Odom (the other offers reported above) then it may come down to Ind. and Miami (if LA is set on getting Shaq out of the West). Currently, I understand that Ind. isn't on Shaq's list. With the right to opt out that may eliminate Ind. I don't know. Maybe Miami is the only option?

I haven't heard what Ind. is offerring. Anyone know?

Dolfan954
07-09-2004, 12:06 PM
Wright was the HEat's number 1 pick right out of HIgh school.

They interviewd Riley last night about it, and he just smiled, and said no comment. He's up to something.

Did anybody else notcie the dude on Sportcenter was trying to find a reason why this trade won't go through?(salaries match up fine)

I know it says Odom/Grant/1st round picks but I've also heard Grant/Jones/Butler/picks, and the most unlikely(but the best for us) Grant/Jones/2 future1sts/Zhi ZHi/Allen





Wright is the high school kid we drafted in the 1st this year. Tall, skinny kid, lots of skills.


Thanks guys. :up:

jville_fin
07-09-2004, 12:44 PM
This trade would definitely make the Heat one of the teams to beat in the east. I hate to lose Odom cause he was one of those players that can dominate during stretches in games. If the trade does happen, I hope we dont give up too much talent and picks. IMO, if wright continues to improve he could possibly be like the next T-mac as some analysts have been saying. AND with wade and wright being the next t-mac that would be a lethal backcourt.

link to Dorell Wrights Bio:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/d04/tracker/player?playerId=18614&id=18614

Muck
07-09-2004, 12:54 PM
Give us some of your projections as to what the starting lineup could look like after a trade for Shaq.

burton87
07-09-2004, 12:59 PM
I'm not sure if i like this deal....

PG Wade
SG Jones
SF Butler
PF Haslem?
C SHAQ :D

Muck
07-09-2004, 12:59 PM
I'm talking about different scenarios....where we keep Odom, lose Odom, keep/lose Butler, Jones, Grant etc. :)

LIQUID24
07-09-2004, 01:00 PM
Give us some of your projections as to what the starting lineup could look like after a trade for Shaq.

C Shaq


:D :D :D

DPlus47
07-09-2004, 01:32 PM
i'm a laker fan and a big shaq fan. i hope this is the deal that happens if one has to happen. i'm furious with the lakers for disrespecting shaq the way they have. how do you let kobe call all the shots when he could possibly do time (let alone leave as a free agent)? you can replace a kobe bryant; you can't replace shaquille o'neal. i know kobe's younger, but with t-mac available??? buss has a screw loose. and he's about to turn a pissed off shaq on the league. may as well win a couple in miami...

Dolfan954
07-09-2004, 02:26 PM
I have a question about this Wright kid. Is he projected to be at the 1 or 2? We already have Wade, so why would we draft another shooting guard?

rafael
07-09-2004, 02:57 PM
I think Wright is expected to be a 2 or 3.

Fresh
07-09-2004, 04:38 PM
I agree, I'd rather trade Butler. Maybe because I've never seen him while he was playing well. But Odom is just so dynamic. I'd love to keep him and possibly move him back to the 3. Ah, just wishful thinking.

Sucks that we're gonna lose Rafer Alston though.

I'd rather trade Caron too, but that has no chance of happening. :(

The thing for me is, to X out the deal:
1.) You can't have Dwyane Wade
2.) You can't have Caron packaged WITH Odom

and in the mean time: http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2004/07/shaqmiami-1.jpg

:tongue:

Fresh
07-09-2004, 04:41 PM
I think Wright is expected to be a 2 or 3.

Wright will be a shooting guard who will also play some point, and occasionally step over to the 3. Dorell is going to play this year, believe me. He won't play that much, but maybe 15mpg. He MUST bulk up, but the kid is determined.

I can really picture Wade & Dorell in the backcourt in a year or two.

In 2-years when Shaq(who will be 34) comes off the books, we get $29m to spend, which means we can sign ANY free agent out there. I think either(or both) Carmelo and LeBron are free agents that year(didn't they sign 3-year deals, so they can get big contracts sooner than later?). We can sign TWO of the top free agents that year, AND EJ's $13m comes off the books the next year.

Can you imagine going into free agency one year with $29m, getting 2 studs, and then having about $15m to burn the next year? Somewhere in there we'll have to pay Wade & Caron though.

TerryTate
07-09-2004, 06:11 PM
It's looking more and more like Shaq will be going to Miami, however the most likely deal stands at this according to Sportscenter....

Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, Caron Butler, and a 1st for Shaq....

I'm a little more hesitant about this deal, all the HEAT would have would be shaq and wade after this is said and done...

Stephen A Smith also reporting that Eddie Jones AND Brian Grant are being dangled....if they can get EJ off of our shoulders instead of BG, that would be SWEEEEET!

Fresh
07-09-2004, 06:43 PM
No deal if Caron is involved, and this is coming from someone who would deal Caron for Tyson Chandler.

Odom AND Caron? No thanks. We will NOT be contenders without both of them, because our bench afterwards will be competing with Charlotte's for the WORST in the NBA. You will not beat Detroit without a decent bench, I promise you that. Rasual Butler and Udonis Haslem step into the line-up, leaving JEROME BEASLEY and a PROSPECT as the top SF & PF on the bench. Of course with the MLE, we can sign a starting SF or PF to put either Rasual or Haslem back on the bench, but it's still a horrible bench.

Also, ESPN's latest doesn't have Caron included. Lamar, Grant, and picks or no deal. IMO, we're LA's last resort. Indiana can put together a nice package including Artest, Harrington, and either Bender or Jones...but guess what? Shaq doesn't have them on his list of places he'd approve of being dealt to. The Mavs are the other team along with Miami & Indiana, but I do not see LA being dumb enough to keep Shaq in the West unless they're getting Dirk in return, which isn't gonna happen.

I don't think any of the teams are going to budge as far as trading their top players are concerned, either. JO, Dirk, and Wade definately won't be dealt.

And finally, I have mixed feelings about this deal(not including Caron, because with him in it, I don't want it to happen). If we get Shaq, that's great. If not, oh well..we still have 25-year old Lamar Odom who can play any position on the court(well not full time at the 2 & 5).

In the mean time, this is interesting:
http://www.finheaven.com/images/imported/2004/07/shaq_sc-1.jpg
:tongue:

LIQUID24
07-09-2004, 06:50 PM
Also, ESPN's latest doesn't have Caron included.It did on Sportscenter, I think it was Marc Stein that said it. But whatever, there's a couple scenarios out there, Dallas supposedly has a package, so does Indy. We'll see what happens...

Fresh
07-09-2004, 06:51 PM
It did on Sportscenter, I think it was Marc Stein that said it. But whatever, there's a couple scenarios out there, Dallas supposedly has a package, so does Indy. We'll see what happens...

Then Dallas or Indiana can have him.

LIQUID24
07-09-2004, 06:58 PM
Then Dallas or Indiana can have him.
Heh. Actually I'd rather take a lesser deal and send him out east. I DO NOT want to see Shaq with Dallas. We'll see what kinda deals pop up. It'll be interesting, that's for sure.

TerryTate
07-09-2004, 06:58 PM
I say the Heat waits on this until Los Angeles really gets nervous that they lose Kobe and trades Shaq for the original Deal of Odom, Grant and a 1st....

Fresh
07-09-2004, 07:01 PM
Riley is a hard head, and he is not going to give up TWO of his three(soon to be four when Dorell steps in) young guns in this deal.

Prime Time
07-09-2004, 07:52 PM
If Caron is part of the deal, then I say No way Jose. I just can't see us losing that much talent for a guy who could only play 3 years for us and leave.

BTW, CO84, I don't think you should be calling Wright a "kid" he is older than you ;)

Muck
07-09-2004, 08:34 PM
I'm starting to get like you guys. Thinking about this trade at work, I'm starting to get gunshy. I absolutely LOVE the young nucleus we have right now. And remember, Shaq is 32 and is starting to become less durable. Then I read this article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/040709

It raises a great question. Is Shaq in decline?? How many dominant seasons does Shaq have left?? Will he start missing large amounts of games at a time?? He's heavier than he should be. And defensively, he's starting to fall off.


Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, Caron Butler, and a 1st for Shaq....

No way. I wouldn't do that deal. You're giving up far too much talent. YOUNG talent. Shaq could retire in 2-3 years. Who knows. But Lamar and Caron will be playing long after Shaq has declined. And they have not yet reached their prime.

And as CO84 alluded to, where would this trade leave us as a roster?? This was what I was referring to when I asked "what would the roster potentially look like??". How much would aquiring Shaq hurt the rest of the roster??

Again, I'm starting to get gunshy. We need a big man. But we don't want it to end up being a lateral move or.....if he gets injured......a devastating step backwards.

Fresh
07-09-2004, 10:18 PM
BTW, CO84, I don't think you should be calling Wright a "kid" he is older than you ;)

On the basketball level, he's a baby compared to someone going to college in August. :D

Check this out: The guy on the LA radio station(LA 690am or something like that - this is all over the RealGM boards) is reporting that Stephen A. Smith said the deal could be Caron, Jones, Grant, and a pick. I highly doubt LA is THAT stupid, but that's just another thing being discussed.

However, he said the deal that's most likely to go down is Odom, Grant, 2005 1st, and a filler like Malik Allen or Wang for Shaq. He said the deal is imminent, and the ONLY thing holding it up is Caron Butler OR the 1st, as well as the final filler.

...I'll believe it all when I see it.

minus
07-09-2004, 10:34 PM
Shaq and Wade is enough to win east.Rasual Butler will be even better than having Caron in the starting lineup since now the offense will run through a dominant center.There some players available to provide adequate depth that can be sign.

I would make the trade in a heartbeat.

BYE CARON
BYE GRANT
BYE ODOM

You can win in the NBA with two Super star sorrounded by role players.

Muck
07-09-2004, 11:40 PM
Jesus, Odom AND Caron?? I'd give up the #1 before I give up another "cornerstone". Remember, we should be picking very low next year if we have Shaq.

Muck
07-09-2004, 11:54 PM
I mean, LA HAS to deal Shaq (so to speak). Shaq will not play for them. He's put his foot down. He controls who he's traded to. And LA's options have dwindled. There's no need for us to give up too much. I think LA is rightfully playing hardball to try and get what they can. But we need to just stick to our guns and not give up too much (i.e. Odom AND Butler).

Fresh
07-10-2004, 12:07 AM
*UPDATE*
Chad Ford on ESPN Radio:

-Talks definitely isn't a rumor, the two teams are talking
-Heat are favorites by far at this point
-Kupchak feeling pressure to trade Shaq, so LA doesn't have much leverage
-Only a good deal for the Heat w/o Caron, only a good deal for LA w/Caron.
-Ford thinks if the Lakers want Caron so bad, why not take him with Jones & Grant? If not, take Odom with Grant & the pick.
-Ford thinks the "Odom, Grant, filler(possibly Malik Allen), picks" deal will go down

Deez Nutz
07-10-2004, 12:42 AM
*UPDATE*
Chad Ford on ESPN Radio:

-Talks definitely isn't a rumor, the two teams are talking
-Heat are favorites by far at this point
-Kupchak feeling pressure to trade Shaq, so LA doesn't have much leverage
-Only a good deal for the Heat w/o Caron, only a good deal for LA w/Caron.
-Ford thinks if the Lakers want Caron so bad, why not take him with Jones & Grant? If not, take Odom with Grant & the pick.
-Ford thinks the "Odom, Grant, filler(possibly Malik Allen), picks" deal will go downI (and probably every other Heat fan on the planet) am hoping that the Butler, Jones, Grant version of the possible trade is done. Immagine Wade, Odom, and O'Neal for the next 3-5 years. And after that, immagine the possibility of Wade, Wright, Odom. The Heat would dominate the NBA for years.

rafael
07-10-2004, 02:08 AM
I (and probably every other Heat fan on the planet) am hoping that the Butler, Jones, Grant version of the possible trade is done. Immagine Wade, Odom, and O'Neal for the next 3-5 years. And after that, immagine the possibility of Wade, Wright, Odom. The Heat would dominate the NBA for years.

My hope is that for some reason Shaq wants to play with Odom and forces LA to go with the Butler, Grant, Jones, etc. offer. BTW I have no logical reason to believe this is likely.

Fresh
07-10-2004, 03:52 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1836585



Sources told ESPN's Jim Gray on Friday night that if the Heat agree to trade Brian Grant, Lamar Odom and either Caron Butler or a No. 1 draft pick, then the Lakers will trade them Shaquille O'Neal. The deal s in Miami's hands now, the sources said.


I saw it on Sports Center, it was a 2am update.

I doubt Caron is in the deal, because Riles isn't moving him AND Caron. $2m is the distance, and Caron makes $1.9m. The deal salary wise has to be within the 15% mark. Malik Allen & Wang together = Caron's salary, so they would be the likely fillers if we choose to trade the pick.

I stand by what I said earlier:
Caron & Odom = no deal
Odom = done deal

Prime Time
07-10-2004, 04:06 AM
CO, you still up? :lol: Ah me too. This is very interesting. I like Malik Allen a lot, but to trade him for Shaq? I'd do it. The bad thing is, I would HATE to break up the trio, and to send Odom to LA would kill me as I hate the Lakers. :(

Well, I guess to look at it this way, we win either way....I would hope the Heat FO are smart enough to trade the 1st and not Caron, If that scenario holds true. Watch tommorow's afternoon ESPN say "Shaq traded to Heat for..." and the whole show about that. That is a positive I see. Miami does not get much coverage, but with a HUGE name like Shaq, we'd be the talk of Sports Center all the F'in time! :up:

Dolfan954
07-10-2004, 09:24 AM
Wright will be a shooting guard who will also play some point, and occasionally step over to the 3. Dorell is going to play this year, believe me. He won't play that much, but maybe 15mpg. He MUST bulk up, but the kid is determined.

I can really picture Wade & Dorell in the backcourt in a year or two.

In 2-years when Shaq(who will be 34) comes off the books, we get $29m to spend, which means we can sign ANY free agent out there. I think either(or both) Carmelo and LeBron are free agents that year(didn't they sign 3-year deals, so they can get big contracts sooner than later?). We can sign TWO of the top free agents that year, AND EJ's $13m comes off the books the next year.

Can you imagine going into free agency one year with $29m, getting 2 studs, and then having about $15m to burn the next year? Somewhere in there we'll have to pay Wade & Caron though.
:confused:

I thought we were going to sign a veteran point guard...and if he's projected to start at the 2, what happens to Wade? Or are we just sticking him at the 3?

Dolfan954
07-10-2004, 09:28 AM
I say the Heat waits on this until Los Angeles really gets nervous that they lose Kobe and trades Shaq for the original Deal of Odom, Grant and a 1st....
Odom, Grant, and a 1st? I heard that scenario too. I'll take it in a second. If it's true, they're paying us to take out our trash. :)

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 10:08 AM
Ball now in HEAT's court, I'm hoping they do the Odom, Grant, and a #1...HIGHWAY ROBBERY for RILEY!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1836585

rafael
07-10-2004, 10:41 AM
:confused:

I thought we were going to sign a veteran point guard...and if he's projected to start at the 2, what happens to Wade? Or are we just sticking him at the 3?

Riley has consistently said that he sees Wade as a 1. Talk of signing a point was as a backup to Wade.

Migs182005
07-10-2004, 11:18 AM
If what ESPN is reporting is true, which is that the Lakers like the Heat's offer of Odom, Grant and a 1st with a filler and LA is just waiting on the Heat to say yes....

I will be very disapointed if this trade does not happen because of the Heat, especially if Caron Butler is not involved in the deal.

ohall
07-10-2004, 12:23 PM
Why don't we trade Pat Reily as well? I'd hate to lose him, but maybe the Lakers are trying to get him involved with this deal?

Oliver...

Fresh
07-10-2004, 05:05 PM
:confused:

I thought we were going to sign a veteran point guard...and if he's projected to start at the 2, what happens to Wade? Or are we just sticking him at the 3?

Dorell won't start for atleast another year, and when he does Eddie Jones exits the line-up. Wright and Wade will most likely be in the backcourt in a few years. Wright can play the 1-3, and Wade can play the 1 & 2.

Fresh
07-10-2004, 05:10 PM
If what ESPN is reporting is true, which is that the Lakers like the Heat's offer of Odom, Grant and a 1st with a filler and LA is just waiting on the Heat to say yes....

I will be very disapointed if this trade does not happen because of the Heat, especially if Caron Butler is not involved in the deal.

That's the exact way I feel.

I mean, our line-up BEFORE using the MLE is nice:
1-Wade
2-Jones
3-Caron
4-Haslem
5-Shaq

If Samaki Walker can play next to Shaq(In LA he did), then so the hell can Haslem. Besides, we'll probably wind up gambling on McDysse and/or Keon Clark.

Split the MLE between McDysse and Clark..then sign Shammond Williams with the LLE to back up D-Wade.

Fresh
07-10-2004, 05:27 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1837581


A source told ESPN's David Aldridge Saturday that the Lakers center has agreed to accept a proposed trade that would send him to the Miami Heat in exchange for guard Caron Butler and forwards Lamar Odom and Brian Grant.


The trade has not been finalized, but O'Neal has informed both the Lakers and Heat that he will not do anything to hinder the swap and would not opt out of his contract after next season.


All I have to say is, Riley...you F'ed up big time if Caron is moved with Odom. We BETTER have a DONE DEAL with either Stephen Jackson or Darius Miles if this trade goes down. Otherwise, we're F'ed.

Migs182005
07-10-2004, 05:39 PM
Now Aldridge is saying Shaq has ok'd a deal (which is awesome)

Problem is the report says Grant Odom and Butler

:cry: That I don't like one bit

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 05:57 PM
Shaq "Gave his blessings" today in Orlando to PAt Riley and Randy Pfund to approve this trade......

Looks like he is MIAMI-BOUND!

But the reporter said that it still could be that 1st round pick instead of Caron, im keeping my fingers crossed for that....

Muck
07-10-2004, 06:21 PM
I agree. Odom AND Caron with just Shaq coming back is too much. You've just gutted your team. And you've also given up the only other viable inside presence you have (Grant).

I hope to God this isn't the deal. :pray:

Section126
07-10-2004, 06:22 PM
Reported on WSVN, ESPN.

Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant for the DIESEL. :D

The players involved however are not confirmed yet.

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 06:29 PM
David Aldridge was just on, said all three have signed off on the deal, trying to hammer out details and Caron is involved, LAkers have inquired about Dorrell Wright as well, possibly instead of Caron :).....

I have to say that when BG, Odom, and possibly Butler leave, I'll admit, I will be somewhat of a Laker fan now, despite not liking Kobe Bryant.

Muck
07-10-2004, 06:33 PM
We'll have gotten azz raped if we do that deal. I'm emphatically against moving Butler as well. Bad enough we're losing Odom (who I think is just about to explode).

Hopefully the final deal won't suck.

Fresh
07-10-2004, 06:34 PM
Screw that...you can't have Caron OR Dorell.

Odom, Grant, Allen, 1st or no deal...that's my stand.

..Too bad I'm not in Riley's shoes, though. :tongue:

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 06:37 PM
Too bad Dorrell Wright scored 30 points in that summer league game, if he wasnt a factor you would be happy with this deal CO.....

Right now im happy dealing Wright with Odom and Grant

Muck
07-10-2004, 06:37 PM
I'm with you bro. Who knows what Dorell could turn out to be. They could be getting yet another superstar in the making.

They gotta move Shaq. He's got a gun to THEIR head. Not ours.

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 06:39 PM
While we are waiting for this to get OFFICIAL (Lakers are the worst at keeping secrets and are mad slow, look what they did with Rudy T, he was doing his job even before he was announced), does Shaq wear 34 or 32 in Miami?

We have no significant 34 here in Miami, and 32 was Harold Miner, I wouldnt feel that bad if he went with 32.....

Fresh
07-10-2004, 06:42 PM
We'll have gotten azz raped if we do that deal. I'm emphatically against moving Butler as well. Bad enough we're losing Odom (who I think is just about to explode).

Hopefully the final deal won't suck.

I'm with you 100%, azz raped is exactly what my pops said too, except with aa Jamaican slang. :goof:

Where does LA have leverage? That's my 29 million dollar question. The top 3 deals were/are Miami, Indiana, and Dallas. Shaq says he wants to play in Miami. Shaq didn't even have Indiana on his list. LA won't trade Shaq in the West, especially to team him up with Dirk.

Where's the leverage? Tell them no Caron or no deal. They HAVE to move Shaq, and he already met with Riles and fell in love like Kobe & that lying, money hungry broad.

Fresh
07-10-2004, 06:43 PM
Too bad Dorrell Wright scored 30 points in that summer league game, if he wasnt a factor you would be happy with this deal CO.....

Right now im happy dealing Wright with Odom and Grant

Nah, not at all. Actually, I know people(scouts) who were out there in Orlando and they said he looked TERRIBLE in the first half.

I've watched videos on Dorell & read a lot about him...I want Dorell in our future. The summer league has nothing to do with it, as a matter of fact, he's injured and missed the final 3 games.

Samphin
07-10-2004, 07:55 PM
Hey all, Laker fan here, I figured I would find some Heat fans here. I have never disliked the Heat. In fact, Alonzo Mourning and Eddie Jones are two of my favorite players. I don't mind shipping Shaq to the Heat due to Riley also being there. I actually don't mind the deal due to getting Butler AND Odom. Grant is just a salary to offset Shaq's but he might be able to contribute somewhat as well in the paint. Kobe, Lamar, and Caron should be a nice little trio for L.A. Payton is average now but with this new lineup much more amped to run and gun, he could fit in moreso this season over last. I would have rather had Wade than Butler, but I realize that that wasn't going to happen.

Anyhow, the Heat should have a nice duo with Wade feeding Shaq, no? I don't know what you guys are going to do about the PF position, but it probably won't matter much unless everyone copies the Pistons and allows Shaq to get his and shut down everyone else. Good Luck to the Heat next year and hopefully my Lakers can beat you guys in the Finals soon.

Muck
07-10-2004, 08:03 PM
Some guy on RealGM says he heard Miami won't part with Butler unless they get Kareem Rush in return.

Just putting it out there.

Samphin
07-10-2004, 08:03 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1837581



All I have to say is, Riley...you F'ed up big time if Caron is moved with Odom. We BETTER have a DONE DEAL with either Stephen Jackson or Darius Miles if this trade goes down. Otherwise, we're F'ed.


Stephen Jackson is involved in a sign and trade with the Pacers/Hawks.

Personally, I don't see this deal happening without Butler And Odom. Remember, Riley might own part of the Heat, but he is a Laker at heart. :evil: No way, does he leave L.A. high and dry. He is doing a deal to help both clubs, the Heat in the short term, and the Lakers in the long term. Kobe, Odom, and Butler would be a nice trio of scoring with Gary feeding them the rock in a run and gun type of offense.

Keep in mind, this deal isn't done yet. Dallas might jump in and offer Nowitzki and a package of others and undercut this deal too. Until we see the press conference, it is all in the development stages.

Samphin
07-10-2004, 08:06 PM
Some guy on RealGM says he heard Miami won't part with Butler unless they get Kareem Rush in return.

Just putting it out there.

Ok, but we get Wade too. :evil:

That trade wouldn't work for many reasons ( Shaq/Rush for Grant/Odom/Butler ). The salaries won't match up. The heat would have to give up even more. NBA Trades you need to be within 15% + $100,000 of salaries in order to make the trades happen.

Perhaps L.A. can snatch up Erick Dampier for the MLE too...ehhh, wishful thinking I guess. :goof:

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 09:34 PM
Keep in mind, this deal isn't done yet. Dallas might jump in and offer Nowitzki and a package of others and undercut this deal too. Until we see the press conference, it is all in the development stages.




Dallas was the early front-runner to acquire O'Neal, but a Mavericks source seemed resigned Saturday to O'Neal's going to Miami. The source said that if the Heat can work out a contract extension for O'Neal when his current deal expires in two years, there is nothing the Mavs can do to thwart the trade.

There you go...

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1837581

LIQUID24
07-10-2004, 09:44 PM
Man, are you guys as nervous as I am?

Phins34
07-10-2004, 09:58 PM
im so excited about this. This is probably one of the biggest trades to ever happen to the city of Miami in all sports. Much bigger than getting Ricky Williams. Shaq, in my opinion, is the best player to ever play the game. Sorry MJ, but shaq has changed the game and is more dominating.

Deez Nutz
07-10-2004, 10:16 PM
Now Aldridge is saying Shaq has ok'd a deal (which is awesome)

Problem is the report says Grant Odom and Butler

:cry: That I don't like one bit I don't like that deal either, but, the Heat have a total of $6.7 million in exception money. So they can go after another player or 2, and there are some good un-resitricted forwards out there.

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 10:16 PM
as far as overall basketball skills, no one is anywhere close to Michael Jordan....but Shaq is the most dominant force, possibly of all time...

catapano
07-10-2004, 10:16 PM
Shaq chooses Miami with L.A.'s blessing
The Heat acquires Lakers star Shaquille O'Neal, but loses Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and Caron Butler, and will be forced to fill crucial roster holes.
Shaquille O'Neal is headed to South Florida. The trade between the two teams has not been finalized and cannot be officially announced until Wednesday, when NBA rules allow, but sources close to the negotiations said the Lakers will accept the deal, paving the way for Miami to become the home to one of the most recognizable athletes in the world.
BY ISRAEL GUTIERREZ / igutierrez@herald.com » Web Vote | How much would be too much for the Heat to sacrifice to get Shaq?

TerryTate
07-10-2004, 10:19 PM
heh, look at this, this changed dramatically sicne yesterday, look at the impact Caron Butler being involved have on the poll on Sun-Sentinel's site...

VOTE: Would you like to see Shaquille O'Neal join the Miami Heat?

YES - 36.9% (4622 responses)
NO - 58.4% (7317 responses)
IDK - 4.8% (600 responses)

Muck
07-10-2004, 10:32 PM
This had better not be true. Pat Riley just got jobbed if we give up Butler. Amazing. The Lakers have a gun to their heads, and yet they still manage to rob Pat Riley.

Man, I hope this isn't true.

Muck
07-10-2004, 10:36 PM
This was from Ira Winderman's column today....


At one point Thursday night, one NBA executive was convinced that O'Neal was the Heat's to lose, with center Brian Grant and forward Lamar Odom part of a package going to the Lakers.

"I just think that Mitch is desperate and isn't sure what to do," an official from a Western Conference team said Friday.


But O'Neal has made it known that he does not want to be dealt to a team that would be cannibalized by such a trade, and his demands have reached the point that an executive from one team said the center would threaten to undergo a season-ending surgery if dealt to team not on his wish list.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basketball/heat/sfl-heat10jul10,0,5707712.story?coll=sfla-sports-heat

Again, we'd better not have sold the farm. :fire:

ChambersWI
07-10-2004, 10:37 PM
I will almost garantee that if Caron is part of the deal we'll get Walton or Rush(or both). La would have Kobe,Lamar,Devan,Rick,Caron,Kareem, and Luke to split time at the 2 and 3. so we would have to get 1 of them.

I also have a funny feeling that the writers are looking to much into it. They seem to forget that our franchise player isn't a FA and might leave to the Clippers. We don't need Shaq. Either Riley sticks to his guns, and caron stays, or we get Kareem or Luke. And I don't think Mitch Kupchak is more pursuasive than Pat Riley.

VJ1252
07-10-2004, 11:25 PM
I dont know why some people on this board are so upset about the Heat possibly including Caron in the trade. The bottom line is that SG and SFs are easy to find but it is tough to find a good center let alone the most dominant center of all time. Another thing I like about this deal is that Shaq may be able to convince somebody to sign with the Heat for the 5.5 m exception who normally wouldnt sign with us. I am thinking Troy Hudson, Stromile Swift, or maybe just maybe Kenyon Martin.

VJ1252
07-10-2004, 11:26 PM
BTW david aldridge just said on SC that the deal is not totally done yet and that dorrel wright may be included in the trade instead of Caron but that the trade should be done on mon by the latest

minus
07-10-2004, 11:31 PM
Caron is nothing special.

VJ1252
07-10-2004, 11:33 PM
sorry for so many consecutive posts but I just got home from work and found out about all the goings on. I agree that the heat should have held out and tried to get more. The longer we wait the more desperate they get to trade Shaq and resign Kobe. We could even try a three way deal like this Cleveland (desperate to create cap room to sign PF Carlos Boozer) sends Zydranaus Illgauskas and we send Caron and next years 1st to Cle and EJ, and LO goes to LA for Shaq.

ChambersWI
07-10-2004, 11:50 PM
I'm telling you, If Caron is included We are getting someone other than Shaq in return, or Riley's already got a trade/FA ready to sign.

minus
07-10-2004, 11:53 PM
Shaq will attract players at cheaper price.

SMadison29
07-11-2004, 12:05 AM
Looks like my trade was correct, no surprise :)

Originally Posted by SMadison29
That rumor isn't giving enough up for Shaq. I should cost the Heat Odom, Caron Butler, & Grant.

Lakers:
PG-Payton & Fisher
2G-Kobe & Rush
SF-Odom & Butler
PF-Malone(with Odom as a back up)
C-Grant



WRONG, NO way does Odom sit on the Laker bench behind a diminished KArl Malone....

RIGHT, that's how it's gonna happen. I think you misread the depth chart. Odom would start at SF with Malone starting at PF, but when Malone comes out Odom would slide down to PF to allow Caron or Walton play the SF.

ChambersWI
07-11-2004, 12:06 AM
after listening to both Aldridge and Bukert I have come to the conclusion that neither know what will happen. Aldridge admittedly said that the offer is what the Lakers want, but if that's what they want Riley will want alittle more than Shaq. Bukert just made himself look like an idiot.

Riley still holds the cards, let's not forget He doesn't need Shaq, and he doesn't need to trade his star player soon. I really won't be surprised if Caron stays.

ChambersWI
07-11-2004, 12:08 AM
RIGHT, that's how it's gonna happen. I think you misread the depth chart. Odom would start at SF with Malone starting at PF, but when Malone comes out Odom would slide down to PF to allow Caron or Walton play the SF.


there'd still be way to many 3's, I know people are probably tired of me saying this, but if Caron goes the Lakers need to include either Walton or Rush with Shaq.

VJ1252
07-11-2004, 12:15 AM
although I would like to keep Caron with SHaq on the team Rasual would get open threes when teams double shaq

VJ1252
07-11-2004, 12:37 AM
after listening to both Aldridge and Bukert I have come to the conclusion that neither know what will happen. Aldridge admittedly said that the offer is what the Lakers want, but if that's what they want Riley will want alittle more than Shaq. Bukert just made himself look like an idiot.

Riley still holds the cards, let's not forget He doesn't need Shaq, and he doesn't need to trade his star player soon. I really won't be surprised if Caron stays.
what makes you say this DA said the trade would be finalized by mon and that it is just waitnig NBA approval and Bucher didnt really talk about the trades effects and how NBA GMs dont like it.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 01:44 AM
Slow down...Ira has NO insight on ANYTHING.

According to the latest from RealGM, Miami has all the leverage here and will play it hard. Odom, Grant, Allen, 1st for Shaq is what we're sticking to, according to their update.

Keep in mind I go to RealGM's hotwire news before even considering ESPN. They have executives from every team over there dishing out info, and they are NEVER wrong(well, except the time they said Al Harrington was likely headed to Chicago).

Fresh
07-11-2004, 01:47 AM
after listening to both Aldridge and Bukert I have come to the conclusion that neither know what will happen. Aldridge admittedly said that the offer is what the Lakers want, but if that's what they want Riley will want alittle more than Shaq. Bukert just made himself look like an idiot.

Riley still holds the cards, let's not forget He doesn't need Shaq, and he doesn't need to trade his star player soon. I really won't be surprised if Caron stays.

You've got that right, my friend. David Aldridge is just trying to jump the gun with his B.S. "sources" as usual. Where's he getting this info? He's been covering Rudy T. all day!

Nothing is as close to being done as people are saying. According to the TRUSTWORTHY league sources, Miami still has the Grant/Odom/Allen/1st deal on the table.

We hold the cards here, and Odom is the BEST player being offered by ANY team. Also, Indiana already dealt Harrington who was in their proposal, and Dallas is out of the runnings.

Deez Nutz
07-11-2004, 02:00 AM
You've got that right, my friend. David Aldridge is just trying to jump the gun with his B.S. "sources" as usual. Where's he getting this info? He's been covering Rudy T. all day!

Nothing is as close to being done as people are saying. According to the TRUSTWORTHY league sources, Miami still has the Grant/Odom/Allen/1st deal on the table.

We hold the cards here, and Odom is the BEST player being offered by ANY team. Also, Indiana already dealt Harrington who was in their proposal, and Dallas is out of the runnings.Hopefully the Grant/Odom/Allen/1st rounder trade will happen. If Caron stays, the Heat can use the $6.7 million and focus it on a solid PF.

kud
07-11-2004, 04:17 AM
I love Odom.

But I want to win a championship, and with a Superstar like Shaq, not to mention being able to keep Dwayne Wade!? You have to hop all over that deal.
Starting Line-up...
G. WADE
G. Jones
F. Wright (Rookie)
F. C.Butler
C. SHAQ

That definately has potential to be a Championship calibur line-up.

Ozzy
07-11-2004, 05:13 AM
You've got that right, my friend. David Aldridge is just trying to jump the gun with his B.S. "sources" as usual. Where's he getting this info? He's been covering Rudy T. all day!

Nothing is as close to being done as people are saying. According to the TRUSTWORTHY league sources, Miami still has the Grant/Odom/Allen/1st deal on the table.

We hold the cards here, and Odom is the BEST player being offered by ANY team. Also, Indiana already dealt Harrington who was in their proposal, and Dallas is out of the runnings.

Well it's very late here, and I just herd that Shaq's agent has confirmed that all parties have agreed to a deal. If so, we will be hearing soon whos the new whos......

Al13
07-11-2004, 05:25 AM
Some guy on RealGM says he heard Miami won't part with Butler unless they get Kareem Rush in return.

Just putting it out there.

that deal is getting ridiculous (sp?) , first you guys want the most dominating player ever for basically no all star in return and now to put caron butler in the mix, who might be a good player some day but still has a lot to prove, you or they want kareem rush, NO WAY !!!, this deal should never happen, i pray that our GM over there is realizing that he trades away a player where they had to change the officiating on, where they put in the zone to make him more accountable, lamar odom really is a bigtime underachiever, caron butler is young and still unproven, brian grant is on bad knees and that should be it ??? this is what LA should get for MDE ??? NO FREAKIN WAY :shakeno:

Samphin
07-11-2004, 05:35 AM
Well, the last rumor I have heard is that L.A. will get Odom, Butler, Grant and a first rounder. This still leaves them apart on money. So this could lead to L.A getting yet another player to help make the money balance out. Now, whether that involves sending just an extra bench player to L.A. or having another player on each side, I don't know. What I do know is this, Walton and Rush are staying in L.A., at least for this trade.

Walton cna play PF some as well as SF. He also has the pasisng skills of a guard, so he isn't going anywhere. Rush will be a backup at SF but his thre epoint rage will be needed. I could see him going somewhere in a different trade, to possibly get us a more quality center.

Assuming Fisher and Bryant ocme back, L.A.'s roster should look as such:

PG: Payton/Fisher/Vujajic
SG: Bryant/Rush/George(tweener)
SF: Butler/Walton
PF: Odom/Douthit/Medvedenko
C: Grant

This is excluding Rick Fox, and Brian Cook, both forwards. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few of these guys shipped elsewhere for more of an inside presence for rebounding and defense. Theo Ratliff comes to mind out of Portland.

I don't know. It is all speculation still at this point. I think in the West, with the plethora of big men, you might see Grant play PF and Odom play SF sometimes as well. This is assuming another big man is on the roster.



Man, this just needs to hurry up and be over with so we can know where everyone will be.

Clumpy
07-11-2004, 06:25 AM
It doesn't look like Derek Fisher is staying. I saw that he close to signing with Houston

Muck
07-11-2004, 09:33 AM
All parties have indeed agreed to a deal (http://www1.realgm.com/src_wiretap.php). We still do not know of the final terms for sure. But it appears as if the pick will be 2006 or later.

minus
07-11-2004, 09:54 AM
Shaq to Miami is done deal.

Al13
07-11-2004, 09:57 AM
and for the kind of players LA gets in return its a joke

LIQUID24
07-11-2004, 09:59 AM
and for the kind of players LA gets in return its a joke
Odom, Grant, and Butler is a great deal for us considering we HAD to trade Shaq. You can't expect much more than that for a 32-yr old.

Bumrush
07-11-2004, 10:58 AM
I'm excited about the trade but I'm also a bit nervous about the direction of team. Giving up Odom and Caron may be a bit too much, but we have to make this trade. Bringing in Shaq helps us improve the team in so many ways, it opens up shots for Wade and Jones and gives us the ability to sign free agents that may opt for different teams.

With Shaq you become the frontrunner in East. We were having a poor offseason to begin with, we lost Rafer and haven't improved the team at all.
Shaq is one of the greatest players in NBA history. If he was 25 years old I would go as far as including Wade in the trade. But he is 32 years old and not in prime condition. This is my fear. Shaq gets injured or plays poorly and the fun we had last year in the playoffs becomes a nightmare next year.

Muck
07-11-2004, 11:10 AM
:lol: Just saw on ESPN. We're getting the "Big Deporter".

2000 playoffs: "First I beat Vlade Divac. Then Luc Longley. Then Arvydas Sabonis in the Conference Finals. Then I got Rik Smits in the Finals". :rofl:

BLITZKRIEG
07-11-2004, 11:16 AM
If the HEAT don't make it to the NBA Finals with Shaq this year, the fans will never forgive GM P. Riley for executing this trade....

The loss of C. Butler in this deal stings. It's not as if C. Butler was a great player, but he was maturing, and starting to show signs of star potential. He was a player that we needed to retain in this trade IMO. The starting line-up is now transformed dramatically....

Maybe too dramatically. Here's a thought....

If the Lakers had Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton, but still couldn't win a Championship{getting destroyed by our East's own Pistons}, how are the Heat going to compete now that we've lost three of our most important players???...

LET'S GO HEAT!!!! :fire:

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 11:31 AM
:( Sad and Glad :) at the same time...

Muck
07-11-2004, 11:34 AM
Does this move ensure that we can get past Indiana?? We were this close to pulling it off. I guess this would be a question better asked after we use the midlevel exemption and the roster is filled out.

C - S. O'Neal
PF - U. Haslem
SF - R. Butler
SG - E. Jones
PG - D. Wade

Where does this currently leave us at 3 and 4??

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 11:36 AM
Slow down...Ira has NO insight on ANYTHING.

According to the latest from RealGM, Miami has all the leverage here and will play it hard. Odom, Grant, Allen, 1st for Shaq is what we're sticking to, according to their update.



Looks like that statement is incorrect. It sucks that we are losing so much, but If it brings us a championship then good deal, If not, Riley is going to get bashed out of South Florida...

http://www1.realgm.com/src_wiretap.php

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 11:39 AM
Does this move ensure that we can get past Indiana?? We were this close to pulling it off. I guess this would be a question better asked after we use the midlevel exemption and the roster is filled out.

C - S. O'Neal
PF - U. Haslem
SF - R. Butler
SG - E. Jones
PG - D. Wade

Where does this currently leave us at 3 and 4??


I see that being our lineup on Game day. IMO, Haslem is the obvious choice (unless Allen outplays him) for PF. Rasual is the obvious choice at SF now that Caron is leaving. It sucks that the young trio is breaking up, but if we win some rings, it is all good. This team looks solid IMO....but for it to be successful, Butler, and Haslem have to put up decent numbers, and Jones has to be the guy that we pay him to be.

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 11:47 AM
I think this would be The Lakers Lineup...

C-Grant
PF-Malone (If not there...Odom)
SF-Odom (If Malone doesnt return...Odom goes to PF, and C. Butler goes here)
SG-Bryant
PG-Payton

My $0.02

Den54
07-11-2004, 11:52 AM
If the HEAT don't make it to the NBA Finals with Shaq this year, the fans will never forgive GM P. Riley for executing this trade....

The loss of C. Butler in this deal stings. It's not as if C. Butler was a great player, but he was maturing, and starting to show signs of star potential. He was a player that we needed to retain in this trade IMO. The starting line-up is now transformed dramatically....

Maybe too dramatically. Here's a thought....

If the Lakers had Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton, but still couldn't win a Championship{getting destroyed by our East's own Pistons}, how are the Heat going to compete now that we've lost three of our most important players???...

LET'S GO HEAT!!!! :fire:

No kidding. Odum Grant Butler and a 1st rd pick for Shaq. The Heat will be in Cap Hell for years to come. As great as Shaq is/was he is still a very selfish player.I'm sure he is going to say all the right things to get this deal done but the tale of the tape will be what kind of shape he shows up in and how motivated he is. But don't kid yourselves he's 32 years old and years of wear and tear.At 300 plus some say 350lbs he's bound to start breaking down even more.The Heat is now a half court team. They were pretty exciting to watch as a fast break team. This should be interesting to say the least.

BLITZKRIEG
07-11-2004, 11:52 AM
If Shaq and Wade can average 30 points a game, that's huge, but where is the rest of the scoring going to be coming from without Odom, Grant, and Butler???....

That's still 40 points short of 100, and the HEAT were hitting that mark last year....

Even with Shaq, I'm still having a tough time seeing the HEAT being able to get by the Pistons / Pacers / and Nets. Those team are stacked....

LET'S GO HEAT!!!!

Den54
07-11-2004, 11:56 AM
I see that being our lineup on Game day. IMO, Haslem is the obvious choice (unless Allen outplays him) for PF. Rasual is the obvious choice at SF now that Caron is leaving. It sucks that the young trio is breaking up, but if we win some rings, it is all good. This team looks solid IMO....but for it to be successful, Butler, and Haslem have to put up decent numbers, and Jones has to be the guy that we pay him to be.


Win some rings? Huge gamble to take imo. Jones has been with the Heat how long? 4 years? He's not all of a sudden going to light it up imo.

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 11:58 AM
With Shaq here, I think Jones is going to get open looks, and play better than usualy, maybe even play what we pay him to be. He will average 20 pts a game in my opnion.

Section126
07-11-2004, 11:59 AM
If Shaq and Wade can average 30 points a game, that's huge, but where is the rest of the scoring going to be coming from without Odom, Grant, and Butler???....

That's still 40 points short of 100, and the HEAT were hitting that mark last year....

Even with Shaq, I'm still having a tough time seeing the HEAT being able to get by the Pistons / Pacers / and Nets. Those team are stacked....

LET'S GO HEAT!!!!

You forgot about the HEAT'S leading scorer from last year....ever heard of him? (Eddie Jones)

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 11:59 AM
Win some rings? Huge gamble to take imo. Jones has been with the Heat how long? 4 years? He's not all of a sudden going to light it up imo.

Win a championship...rings for the team is what I meant.

I think he can, now that a big man is here. A big man (Shaq) is gonna dominate the East. No questions asked.

Section126
07-11-2004, 12:00 PM
He will average 20 pts a game in my opnion.


He already is doing that.

Den54
07-11-2004, 12:03 PM
I'm excited about the trade but I'm also a bit nervous about the direction of team. Giving up Odom and Caron may be a bit too much, but we have to make this trade. Bringing in Shaq helps us improve the team in so many ways, it opens up shots for Wade and Jones and gives us the ability to sign free agents that may opt for different teams.

With Shaq you become the frontrunner in East. We were having a poor offseason to begin with, we lost Rafer and haven't improved the team at all.
Shaq is one of the greatest players in NBA history. If he was 25 years old I would go as far as including Wade in the trade. But he is 32 years old and not in prime condition. This is my fear. Shaq gets injured or plays poorly and the fun we had last year in the playoffs becomes a nightmare next year.


Very sound assessment.

Den54
07-11-2004, 12:07 PM
Win a championship...rings for the team is what I meant.

I think he can, now that a big man is here. A big man (Shaq) is gonna dominate the East. No questions asked.

So now that Shaq is here the Heat will dominate the East huh?
What about the West?
Shaq ,Wade and Jones. Yeah that will win you some rings. :D

BLITZKRIEG
07-11-2004, 12:10 PM
I like Jones, but he's got to be more consistant IMO. There are games where he just dissappears at times, and he's also nearing the end of his career...

There is a possibility that having Shaq could help his looks, and as a result make him a more productive scorer, but who knows???....

We all know that Shaq is going to want to be the center of attention on this team, and he will be this year. The question remains however, will that effect the rest of the players in a negative way, or will they feed off it and dominate???...

I'm hoping this move take sthe HEAT over the top!!!...I'm just a little skeptical right now since we lost so much talent to get the trade done....

LET'S GO HEAT!!! :fire:

Section126
07-11-2004, 12:18 PM
Before you say that you can't fill around.......look at the free agent list......there are countless good small forwards out there.....(Bruce Bowen, Wesley person) are two I like.....

Tell you what...if Caron Butler does not go in the trade.........WE WON the NBA TITLE.

I am hoping Riley gets to substitute Wright for Caron in the trade.

Prime Time
07-11-2004, 12:20 PM
Bowen is still out there? Interesting....

BTW, Shaq will be getting double and sometimes eve triple teamed (like he did in LA) leaving Wade and Jones and others a wide open shot.

ChambersWI
07-11-2004, 12:32 PM
As someone alreadey mentioned there are numorous good swingmen still FA's.

Miles, Sura, Bowens(all though he'll resign with the spurs), and Person to name a few. Marcus Fizer has potential if we go afeter him. I also think Darius Rice will be this year's Marquise Daniels.

Maybe we can get Swift from Memphis, or trade them a scrub and cash for one of their many swingmen.

It's not like it's the end of the road Shaq does make is teammates better, and Wade doesn't have the ego of Kobe or Payton so he and Shaq could do great together.

Someone asked how we'd beat the Pistons if the Lakers couldn't with 4 all-stars.

I'm not defending the Lakers but when your starting PF is hurt, your PG doesn't fit into your system, you two stars don't get along, and no one attacks the glass it's kind of hard to score.


For the long run this trade hurts us(all though Riley is good at finding talent i.e Haslem) it helps us right now. While the Lakers do get talented players, they're now too small to go up against any of the wests big men.

Bumrush
07-11-2004, 12:34 PM
Well, either way we keep forgetting that Caron is a 12-15 point scorer with 5-7 rebounds per game. Not all star caliber, has some room for improvement. I'm sure we can pick up someone at small forward that will do the job. I like Haslem and like his energy.

Look at the blueprint of success in the NBA. With the exception of the Pistons, its been a 2 player blueprint. Jordan/Pipppen, Malone/Stockton, Duncan/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe, ect... 2 All Star, high caliber players is all you need in the NBA to win. Sure the Pistons were a feel good story, but they were the exception to the rule.

With that being said, a Wade/Shaq combo may be all you need to win the east. The balance of power will shift when a player like Shaq makes a move. He is the most dominant player of all time at center and throws people around like they were rag dolls. Having him on the heat gives them the best inside threat in the East. Haslem and Wade will only improve. EJ will get more open looks. I can't remember a player being double teamed once since Zo left.
We still have cap space left over and with Shaq in town, it will be easier to pick up hungry players that want to win and that want constant national exposure. The more I think about it, the more I'm happy about the deal. Not because I think Shaq is the best thing ever at this stage of his career but because it opens up so many more opportunities for this franchise. :) :)

PhinKev
07-11-2004, 12:48 PM
I don't know. We had a fast exciting team. I liked watching it. We gave up two 25 years old talents for a guy that is not usually motivated, takes large portions of the season out, has a bad toe, and isn't getting any younger.

Shaq's salary is so high that you can't sign anyone to help, and he can opt out after one year, so where does that leave you?

Section126
07-11-2004, 12:56 PM
I don't know. We had a fast exciting team. I liked watching it. We gave up two 25 years old talents for a guy that is not usually motivated, takes large portions of the season out, has a bad toe, and isn't getting any younger.

Shaq's salary is so high that you can't sign anyone to help, and he can opt out after one year, so where does that leave you?

Shaq not motivated?? :roflmao: I think we'll get a rather "motivated" SHAQ...

MissMeth
07-11-2004, 01:00 PM
My only question is who is going to replace Odom??? Im not a Heat fan, never have been and probably never will be... i am a KINGS fan therefore i HATE Shaq. Even if i wasnt a King fan i would still hate Shaq. But i admit that he would make the team better. My only issue is he is a cancer attitude wise and i thought the bringing in of Odom is what changed the Heat around in the first place.. now your going to trade me off? Shaq cant win by himself thats for sure.

PhinKev
07-11-2004, 01:02 PM
Shaq not motivated?? :roflmao: I think we'll get a rather "motivated" SHAQ...

Maybe. But this was a guy that waited to have surgery until the season began two years ago because he thought since he was injured on company time he should heal on company time and not interfere with his vacation.

That's not reassuring.

Bumrush
07-11-2004, 01:04 PM
On top of that, Odom has had one good year and may wind up being the next Billy Owens :roflmao:

If I recall correctly, Wade was the main reason we made it out of Charlotte and competed against Indy. His performance in game 6 was incredible, he single handedly kept the Heat in the game while Odom and EJ were missing shots. Odom is awesome as is Caron, but they are not championship caliber players. Shaq is talented enough to build a championship team, I'm not sure if Odom is.

Section126
07-11-2004, 01:18 PM
Think about the trade like this:

SHAQ replaces ODOM...... :roflmao: Highway robery

Brian Grant......we lose his albatross of a contract...who cares....he is very close to being done.

Caron Butler.......had a bad year.....injury plagued.......lost 5 inches off of his vertical jump this season after the knee injury....Does Pat Riley think he's done?

Remember that Odom has played only one full season.......is also constantly injured, and dissapeared on the road in every single playoff game.


We might have robbed the Lakers blind........

BLITZKRIEG
07-11-2004, 01:23 PM
I'm excited, but I still think we'll need more than just Shaq and Wade to get past the Pistons.....

We'll certainly be one of the top three teams in the East. The Pistons and Pacers both looking stong too. If we can find decent replacements for Odom and Butler, we should be in the race...

I wish I were a fan of Shaq, but honestly I can't stand the guy. The guys we traded for Shaq were all stand up, top shelf individuals....

:fire: LET'S GO HEAT!!!! :fire:

BLITZKRIEG
07-11-2004, 01:32 PM
Think about the trade like this:

SHAQ replaces ODOM...... :roflmao: Highway robery

Caron Butler.......had a bad year.....injury plagued.......lost 5 inches off of his vertical jump this season after the knee injury....Does Pat Riley think he's done?

Remember that Odom has played only one full season.......is also constantly injured, and dissapeared on the road in every single playoff game.


We might have robbed the Lakers blind........

I thought Shaq was replacing B. Grant???...It's Odom that we have to find an adequate replacement for IMO.

C. Butler shouldn't be as difficult to replace, but he was a young player that looked good IMO. He had a rough season, but he's a fighter, and that's what I liked about him, he was all business on the court....

Odom was one of the main reasons we went as far as we did IMO. His play on the road, "along with everyone elses" was shaky, but I think that had more to do with age and in-experience than anything else. Odom has the talent to be a super star IMO....

I'm not sure which team wil make out better in the long run. It will be exciting to have Shaq, but will he pay off in the end???....

Let's just hope this deal doesn't come back to bite Riley like the Mash / Brown trade a few years back....

:fire: LET'S GO HEAT!!! :fire:

TerryTate
07-11-2004, 01:58 PM
Think about the trade like this:

SHAQ replaces ODOM...... :roflmao: Highway robery

Brian Grant......we lose his albatross of a contract...who cares....he is very close to being done.

Caron Butler.......had a bad year.....injury plagued.......lost 5 inches off of his vertical jump this season after the knee injury....Does Pat Riley think he's done?

Remember that Odom has played only one full season.......is also constantly injured, and dissapeared on the road in every single playoff game.


We might have robbed the Lakers blind........


You got it all wrong S-126

Odom is a 6'10'' small forward, hes not a center, and doesnt function like a center.

Grant is the guy on this HEAT team that was all heart, its ridiculous to say that hes almost done, sure his offense has declined in the years but he wasnt a heavy duty scorer anyways, and his defense this year in the playoffs, for a man his size, was SUPERB, was he overpaid? yes...did he attempt to earn every penny, absolutely....I was impressed with his defense and rebounds, and he looked to finally come around this season, imagine how he couldve been if Zo stayed healthy...

Caron Butler had an injury plagued year but he showed signs at the end that he was back.....and this is why people are starting to get upset with this deal.

As for Odom, you are ripping the guy for his past, which he cant change, he had one full all-star-eque season, which was last year, and its current events....it looks as if hes shed his past, which was in Los Angeles, and id be nervous if i was a laker fan that he would be getting into trouble again if he went back there, otherwise, he was in good shape and was a team player.

Kistner10
07-11-2004, 02:52 PM
I live a couple hours away from LA so I can tell you that giving up that much for Shaq isn't that bad. More people around here are thinking that the Heat are robbing LA. I'm a King's fan so I can't stand Shaq, but he's gonna make other players around him better. He can also recruit players that want rings( Payton, Malone) so i'm sure Riley is counting on that to come along with Shaq. Some players that stand out that Shaq could recruit or would be a good fit for the club.

PG- Mark Jackson UFA Houston Rockets- His numbers don't look great but if you go to Game log you can see that when he got minutes he was very effective. Older player that would want a ring and would be a solid back up to Wade.

PG- Derek Fisher UFA Los Angeles Lakers- Probaley will sign with Houston, but Shaq and Fisher are close and i'm sure if Shaq wanted him to come to Miami, he'd have to consider. Clutch player who shows up during the playoffs.

PF- Antonio McDyess UFA Phoenix Suns- Is getting pursued by Detrioit so getting him would help your team in two ways. Still is only 29 years old but has been injured the last couple of years. Probaley not an All-Star caliber player any more but would be a solid player.

PF- Keon Clark UFA Phoenix Suns- Saw him a lot when he played for Sac. Not a great offensive player but grabs boards and blocks a lot of shots. Very Athletic. Could see him average 10-13 points with 8-11 boards and 2 blocks a game.

SG- Anthonly Peeler UFA Sacramento Kings- Would be a good fit with Shaq because he can shoot the three. Led NBA in 3 point percentage. Would be a nice role player off the bench who could play 1-3 postitions if you need him to.

PF- Robert Horry UFA San Antonio Spurs- More effective off the bench in short stints. Good defender and clutch player. I'm sure Shaq could convince him to play with him for some more rings.

SF- Michael Curry UFA Toronto Raptors- Not a scorer but a good defender. Veteran player who would love to win a ring.

SG/SF Wesley Person UFA Portland- Good three point shooter who Shaq could recruit.

Imagine who do the trade and sign Person, Jackson, and either McDyess or Clark.

PG- Wade, Jackson
SG- Jones, Person, Wright
SF- R. Butler or Person with other person as backup, Wright
PF- McDyess or Clark, Haslem, Allen
C- Shaq, McDyess or Clark

That would be a solid line up. You could also sign other players like Miles or players with potential. But Shaq can help bring solid players with him.

Den54
07-11-2004, 03:04 PM
I'm excited, but I still think we'll need more than just Shaq and Wade to get past the Pistons.....

We'll certainly be one of the top three teams in the East. The Pistons and Pacers both looking stong too. If we can find decent replacements for Odom and Butler, we should be in the race...

I wish I were a fan of Shaq, but honestly I can't stand the guy. The guys we traded for Shaq were all stand up, top shelf individuals....

:fire: LET'S GO HEAT!!!! :fire:

Of coarse there's reason for excitement, I mean we are talking about Shaq.
But if I remeber correctly Kobe,Shaq and company got pimped slapped pretty good in the finals so you'll have to forgive me if I don't have alot of faith in Wade, Shaq and company taking Heat fans very far. Wade is no Kobe thats for sure and lets not even compare benches.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 03:20 PM
All I have to say to Pat Riley, is good luck to your azz. I love the idea of getting Shaq, but giving up Caron in that deal was giving up to the Lakers, PERIOD.

Rasual Butler is NOT a small forward, just to let some of you know. SVG said it himself around draft time that Rasual was gonna play SG this year. Rasual & Haslem in the starting line-up?

Hah, good luck. Our line-up isn't NEAR being as good as Detroit's, & the free agent market is dry. If we can't land Darius Miles, Etan Thomas, or Stromile Swift...we're not beating Detroit.

If Riley can give up Caron in this deal when he doesn't truly have to(cap wise - & Riley should play hardball, LA has no other options)...I'd expect us to use the MLE on Toni Kukoc & another old player. :shakeno:

Fresh
07-11-2004, 03:27 PM
I live a couple hours away from LA so I can tell you that giving up that much for Shaq isn't that bad. More people around here are thinking that the Heat are robbing LA. I'm a King's fan so I can't stand Shaq, but he's gonna make other players around him better. He can also recruit players that want rings( Payton, Malone) so i'm sure Riley is counting on that to come along with Shaq. Some players that stand out that Shaq could recruit or would be a good fit for the club.

PG- Mark Jackson UFA Houston Rockets- His numbers don't look great but if you go to Game log you can see that when he got minutes he was very effective. Older player that would want a ring and would be a solid back up to Wade.

PG- Derek Fisher UFA Los Angeles Lakers- Probaley will sign with Houston, but Shaq and Fisher are close and i'm sure if Shaq wanted him to come to Miami, he'd have to consider. Clutch player who shows up during the playoffs.

PF- Antonio McDyess UFA Phoenix Suns- Is getting pursued by Detrioit so getting him would help your team in two ways. Still is only 29 years old but has been injured the last couple of years. Probaley not an All-Star caliber player any more but would be a solid player.

PF- Keon Clark UFA Phoenix Suns- Saw him a lot when he played for Sac. Not a great offensive player but grabs boards and blocks a lot of shots. Very Athletic. Could see him average 10-13 points with 8-11 boards and 2 blocks a game.

SG- Anthonly Peeler UFA Sacramento Kings- Would be a good fit with Shaq because he can shoot the three. Led NBA in 3 point percentage. Would be a nice role player off the bench who could play 1-3 postitions if you need him to.

PF- Robert Horry UFA San Antonio Spurs- More effective off the bench in short stints. Good defender and clutch player. I'm sure Shaq could convince him to play with him for some more rings.

SF- Michael Curry UFA Toronto Raptors- Not a scorer but a good defender. Veteran player who would love to win a ring.

SG/SF Wesley Person UFA Portland- Good three point shooter who Shaq could recruit.

Imagine who do the trade and sign Person, Jackson, and either McDyess or Clark.

PG- Wade, Jackson
SG- Jones, Person, Wright
SF- R. Butler or Person with other person as backup, Wright
PF- McDyess or Clark, Haslem, Allen
C- Shaq, McDyess or Clark

That would be a solid line up. You could also sign other players like Miles or players with potential. But Shaq can help bring solid players with him.

Antonio McDysse is gone to Detroit for $30m.

Keon Clark is not worth much more than the LLE.

Jackson? Not before Jones, Dooling, Sura, Williams, Hunter, & a few other PG's come off the market.

...I don't like anybody on that list but Darius Miles & Keon Clark. Miles is a RFA & the entire MLE might not get him away from Portland. We may as well take the 15-day gamble on some RFA's now like Etan Thomas, Stromile Swift, or D-Miles.

We now have nothing to lose, except for our young future. Oh wait, that's already gone.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 03:31 PM
Shaq ,Wade and Jones. Yeah that will win you some rings. :D

That won't get you to the Championship. I'm sorry, but Detroit not only has a better starting line-up...but they have a WAY better bench.

Samphin
07-11-2004, 03:39 PM
Think about the trade like this:

SHAQ replaces ODOM...... :roflmao: Highway robery

Brian Grant......we lose his albatross of a contract...who cares....he is very close to being done.

Caron Butler.......had a bad year.....injury plagued.......lost 5 inches off of his vertical jump this season after the knee injury....Does Pat Riley think he's done?

Remember that Odom has played only one full season.......is also constantly injured, and dissapeared on the road in every single playoff game.


We might have robbed the Lakers blind........


Well, if you are going to use the injury route, might as well throw Shaq's injury history into int. Arthritic toes, bad knees, and back have forced the Big Trader to miss many a game over the seasons.

92-93 Orl 81 81 37.9 9.0-16.1 .562 0.0-0.0 .000 5.3-8.9 .592 0.7 3.5 3.8 4.0 0.1 4.2 9.6 13.8 1.9 23.4
93-94 Orl 81 81 39.8 11.8-19.6 .599 0.0-0.0 .000 5.8-10.5 .554 0.9 2.9 2.7 3.5 0.0 4.7 8.5 13.2 2.4 29.3
94-95 Orl 79 79 37.0 11.8-20.2 .583 0.0-0.1 .000 5.8-10.8 .533 0.9 2.4 2.6 3.3 0.0 4.2 7.3 11.5 2.7 29.3
95-96 Orl 54 52 36.0 11.0-19.1 .573 0.0-0.0 .500 4.6-9.5 .487 0.6 2.1 2.9 3.6 0.0 3.4 7.7 11.1 2.9 26.6
96-97 Lal 51 51 38.1 10.8-19.4 .557 0.0-0.1 .000 4.5-9.4 .484 0.9 2.9 2.9 3.5 0.0 3.8 8.7 12.5 3.1 26.2
97-98 Lal 60 57 36.3 11.2-19.1 .584 0.0-0.0 .000 6.0-11.3 .527 0.7 2.4 2.9 3.2 0.0 3.5 7.9 11.4 2.4 28.3
98-99 Lal 49 49 34.8 10.4-18.1 .576 0.0-0.0 .000 5.5-10.2 .540 0.7 1.7 2.5 3.2 0.1 3.8 6.9 10.7 2.3 26.3
99-00 Lal 79 79 40.0 12.1-21.1 .574 0.0-0.0 .000 5.5-10.4 .524 0.5 3.0 2.8 3.2 0.0 4.3 9.4 13.7 3.8 29.7
00-01 Lal 74 74 39.5 11.0-19.2 .572 0.0-0.0 .000 6.7-13.1 .513 0.6 2.8 2.9 3.5 0.1 3.9 8.8 12.7 3.7 28.7
01-02 Lal 67 66 36.1 10.6-18.3 .579 0.0-0.0 .000 5.9-10.7 .555 0.6 2.0 2.6 3.0 0.0 3.5 7.2 10.7 3.0 27.2
02-03 Lal 67 66 37.8 10.4-18.1 .574 0.0-0.0 .000 6.7-10.8 .622 0.6 2.4 2.9 3.4 0.1 3.9 7.2 11.1 3.1 27.5
03-04 Lal 67 67 36.8 8.3-14.1 .584 0.0-0.0 .000 4.9-10.1 .490 0.5 2.5 2.9 3.4 0.0 3.7 7.8 11.5 2.9 21.5


Many seasons he playe dunder 60 games. Only twice has he played in 81 games and three other times above 70. He will usually give you anywhere between 60-70 games a season. Be prepared to not have him in your lineup for about a quarter of your games.

Frayser
07-11-2004, 04:05 PM
I think Swift is going to be our target, and having Shaq here should make Miami very enticing to him. Riley seems to think Wright will develop quickly. It should be fun to watch him. Let's not forget about Freije either. I watched the kid play throughout all of college. He should be a solid presence off the bench, and his outside shooting can kill teams that try to shutdown Shaq underneath.

Den54
07-11-2004, 04:15 PM
That won't get you to the Championship. I'm sorry, but Detroit not only has a better starting line-up...but they have a WAY better bench.

I was being sarcastic but did'nt want to roll eyes and be rude. Hence the smiley.

t2thejz
07-11-2004, 04:21 PM
The heat probably now have the bet one-two punch.

Den54
07-11-2004, 04:30 PM
The heat probably now have the bet one-two punch.

:roflmao:

minus
07-11-2004, 05:48 PM
All I have to say to Pat Riley, is good luck to your azz. I love the idea of getting Shaq, but giving up Caron in that deal was giving up to the Lakers, PERIOD.

Rasual Butler is NOT a small forward, just to let some of you know. SVG said it himself around draft time that Rasual was gonna play SG this year. Rasual & Haslem in the starting line-up?

Hah, good luck. Our line-up isn't NEAR being as good as Detroit's, & the free agent market is dry. If we can't land Darius Miles, Etan Thomas, or Stromile Swift...we're not beating Detroit.

If Riley can give up Caron in this deal when he doesn't truly have to(cap wise - & Riley should play hardball, LA has no other options)...I'd expect us to use the MLE on Toni Kukoc & another old player. :shakeno:

Why Rasual is not SF?Rasual fits better than Caron since he actuallly has a J.Shaq will be drawing lot double teams so we need shooters which is not Caron strong point.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 06:13 PM
The heat probably now have the bet one-two punch.

No, T-Mac/Yao is better.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 06:15 PM
Why Rasual is not SF?Rasual fits better than Caron since he actuallly has a J.Shaq will be drawing lot double teams so we need shooters which is not Caron strong point.

Rasual Butler is a tweener. He's a swingman who is a better SG.

Don't get me wrong, I love Rasual, but mostly as a SG. He didn't get enough minutes last year and that really pissed me off. I wish we could get a SF like Darius Miles or someone to keep Rasual coming off the bench.

I mean, 'Sual has a really nice touch. The guy went 50-108 from the 3-point mark last year. He could put up 15ppg in good minutes.

I just see Rasual more as a SG, and so does SVG.

Migs182005
07-11-2004, 07:01 PM
No, T-Mac/Yao is better.

I will respectfully disagree ;)

Muck
07-11-2004, 07:09 PM
I'd say it's about even. Shaq is easily a better offensive player than Yao. And he's still a better rebounder. I think Shaq over Yao makes up the difference between T-Mac over Wade at this point in time.

Den54
07-11-2004, 07:22 PM
Yall are nuts. Wade is nowhere near the caliber of Tmac and Ming has a pretty good offensive game. Granted Ming is'nt the defensive jaugernaught that Shaq is.

VJ1252
07-11-2004, 07:51 PM
Shaq is much better than Yao Ming when the Rockets played LA in the playoffs Shaq dominated Yao. McGrady is obviously better than Wade but he has never even gotten out of the first round. IMO McGrady isnt as much better than Wade as Shaq is over Yao. Doesnt really matter though because Houston has a better team.

HOU MIA
PG ??? Maybe Fisher Wade
SG McGrady Jones
SF Jim Jackson Rasual Butler
PF Juwan Howard Haslem
C Yao Shaq

VJ1252
07-11-2004, 07:53 PM
The Heat can beat Det as long as Wade doesnt let Chauncey Billups avg 20 a game. Yea nobody outside of Shaq will be able to score but nobody on Det other than Chauncey really scored consistently in the Finals.

Noodle Arm
07-11-2004, 08:01 PM
Greeeaaat the latest AP report now states nobody is really sure if Caron is involved in the trade or not.

Miami is expected to send a package that includes Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, one other player - perhaps Caron Butler - and a first-round draft choice to Los Angeles in exchange for the 7-foot-1, 340-pound O'Neal, who demanded a trade shortly after the Lakers lost the NBA Finals to Detroit.

Rogers said he did not know which players the Lakers and Heat have agreed to swap.

"What's been agreed to by (Heat president) Pat Riley and (Lakers GM) Mitch Kupchak, I have not been privy to," Rogers said.
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2569362

While I have a gut feeling Caron is involved...there's always that little part that's not giving up hope. I can't wait until Wednesday so all this back and forth will be over with. :shakeno:

(Just wanted to say thanks to ChambersOwnz84 for mentioning that RealGM webpage, I've never been there and it's a great site. It's also where I got this info)

t2thejz
07-11-2004, 08:06 PM
Yall are nuts. Wade is nowhere near the caliber of Tmac and Ming has a pretty good offensive game. Granted Ming is'nt the defensive jaugernaught that Shaq is.
Any coach in their right mind would take Shaq and Wade over Yao and Mcgrady...if they wanted to win now.

Den54
07-11-2004, 08:13 PM
The Heat can beat Det as long as Wade doesnt let Chauncey Billups avg 20 a game. Yea nobody outside of Shaq will be able to score but nobody on Det other than Chauncey really scored consistently in the Finals.

:shakeno: Come on. Wade has'nt even proven he's a good as Billups or even Hamilton for that matter. Rasheed Wallice is capable of dropping 20 on you on any givin night. What are you people smoking. :rolleyes:

Den54
07-11-2004, 08:15 PM
Any coach in their right mind would take Shaq and Wade over Yao and Mcgrady...if they wanted to win now.

:roflmao:

Fresh
07-11-2004, 08:37 PM
Greeeaaat the latest AP report now states nobody is really sure if Caron is involved in the trade or not.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2569362

While I have a gut feeling Caron is involved...there's always that little part that's not giving up hope. I can't wait until Wednesday so all this back and forth will be over with. :shakeno:

(Just wanted to say thanks to ChambersOwnz84 for mentioning that RealGM webpage, I've never been there and it's a great site. It's also where I got this info)

No prob, Noodle...RealGM is the best B-ball board.

Told yall...NEVER believe ESPN's "sources". There it is on ESPN News as well. They say Odom and Grant ARE in the deal, but there is nothing about Caron yet. That was all speculation.

Caron might not be in the deal...God, that would OWN! :)

Fresh
07-11-2004, 08:49 PM
By the way, I'd change the thread title...there's no sources that this deal has been sent to the league's box office for approval, as we don't even know who's in it(other than Shaq, Grant, LO).

Muck
07-11-2004, 08:59 PM
Shaq's agent said yesterday that a deal has been agreed to and they're simply awaiting the conference call with the league/approval.....as well as the Wednesday when FA opens.


"I can confirm that all the parties have agreed to the deal," O'Neal's agent, Perry Rogers, told the Washington Post. "It's all pending [league] approval but I can say everything has been agreed to."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/07/10/bc.bkn.heat.o.neal.ap/

VJ1252
07-11-2004, 10:48 PM
:shakeno: Come on. Wade has'nt even proven he's a good as Billups or even Hamilton for that matter. Rasheed Wallice is capable of dropping 20 on you on any givin night. What are you people smoking. :rolleyes:Wade has proven he is better than Billups. Did you not see Wade light up the Pacers and defensive player of the year Ron Artest? Yea Billups did good well in the finals but that was against Gary Payton and the Lakers horrific team D. Wallace may be capable of dropping 20 on you any night but the fact is he doesnt do it that often.

P.S. This thread shows how great this board is because I have seen more posts on this board about the trade then on some heat boards. The posts have been smarter too.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 10:58 PM
*UPDATE* coming up next on Autohouse Sports Extra.

Before commercial, Shapiro said: "..And we've got details that the players in the Shaq deal may NOT be as reported"

VJ1252
07-11-2004, 11:05 PM
on sports extra palm beach post heat writer said the trade will def include BG,LO, and Caron.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 11:08 PM
Channel 7's Sports Extra:

Chris Perkins from the Palm Beach Post says that there's NO doubt that the trade will happen, as he spoke with Shaq yesterday. He says that it's "definately" Odom, Grant, & Caron...but there may not be a 1st round pick included.

SMadison29
07-11-2004, 11:11 PM
Kobe will probably lead the NBA in scoring this year with over 30 ppg. It's time for him to shine & prove he doesn't need Shaq.

Fresh
07-11-2004, 11:14 PM
He can shine all he wants, but LA ain't going anywhere with Brian Grant at center(as much as I admire Grant's heart).

Fresh
07-11-2004, 11:30 PM
This Chris Perkins dude doesn't have much credibility. I mean, his list of available players included Brian Cardinal, Stephen Jackson, and Troy Hudson. An agreement to s&t Jackson to Indiana for Al Harrington was reached yesterday, Cardinal agreed on a deal for the ENTIRE MLE with Memphis on Friday, and Hudson's been gone(re-signed by Minny) since the beginning of last week.

This guy doesn't have much credibility if you ask me.

Bumrush
07-11-2004, 11:31 PM
The Lakers are going to get hammered next year in the West. The makeup of their team is going to make them look like the Suns.

I'm pumped about this trade. I can't wait for him to step on the floor at the AA, we are FREAKING contendors just by having him. The Heat was off to a poor start this offseason, I didn't see them making moves to improve over last year. Yes we had a great run, but deep down inside you knew that if the Heat didn't develop a strong, physical inside player we would be doomed to 1st or 2nd round exits. On top of that you lose your sparkplug at the point to the Raptors and have drafted a project.

Every heat fan I know DREAMED of having Grant and Jones off the team to clear up some cap space. Odom was awesome last year, but is he capable of carrying a team down the stretch and developing a game like Garnett? Caron plays with a lot of heart and is a great defender, but he can be replaced. His game may get better, but he will never be a 20+ point scorer in this league.

What you get in return is the most dominating player in our era. He is a freak of nature, a giant amongst giants that can DOMINATE players on a nightly basis. In the east, other than Jermain O'Neil, who can match up with him? Imagine if he had been traded to a team in our division, how we would feel knowing we had to face him 4 times a year? He is one of the greatest players of all time and has 3 championship rings. You have to take a chance to win now, and trading for Shaq was the right move. Its really sad for me to see Odom and Caron go, but I agree 100% with the decision. I'd like to thank them for bringing us back to being respectable and for playing with heart and passion that will go down as one of my favorite sports moments ever.
With that being said, its time to make a real run for the title. We in Miami are used to teams that make half *** moves, too cautious to pull the trigger and go for broke. This may turn out great or may be the worst move ever, but at the end of the day, at this time, its the right move to make.

VJ1252
07-12-2004, 12:04 AM
ChamberOwnz84 where did you hear about Hudson? You seem to knock every media sources credibility other than RealGM which doesnt seem that credible or unbiased to me.

TerryTate
07-12-2004, 12:22 AM
Im looking forward to seeing the heat on TV (when im in town and cant make it to the game) and NOT having the glowing seats stick out like a sore thumb, cause now there will be butts in seats all year long :)

Just thought i would mention that...

Fresh
07-12-2004, 12:28 AM
ChamberOwnz84 where did you hear about Hudson? You seem to knock every media sources credibility other than RealGM which doesnt seem that credible or unbiased to me.

And just what do you know about RealGM? I'm sure you don't know much about it.

I don't know what your deal is...I knocked 2 sources.

They're the KFFL of basketball.

SmokeyPhinz
07-12-2004, 12:32 AM
U guys really think that having Shaq automatically means something? He doesn't have Kobe. Kobe made things happen for him, and vice versa. The Heat are giving up way too much for this deal. Don't be surprised if L.A. gets better with the deal. Odom is a good player who can be great, Grant is just a numbers guy, and Caron Butler is a young talent with upside. Shaq has little then 4-5 years left in the tank. Don't include a 1st either, that would be miserable.

VJ1252
07-12-2004, 12:58 AM
the reason I said it doesnt seem that credible is because seems to get most of its info from newspapers and espn. So if the palm beach post and sentinel arent credible then I would think that real GM wouldnt be credible either. It seems kinda biased b.c if you click on the heat page it says "front office ruins team, trades core for aging O Neal". I hope your right and perkins is wrong because I want us to keep Caron.

Fresh
07-12-2004, 02:48 AM
I hope your right and perkins is wrong because I want us to keep Caron.

I didn't say that Caron wasn't in the deal. I said that Perkins doesn't have much credibility as the guy doesn't even know who's still on the market, which is true.

Fresh
07-12-2004, 02:50 AM
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap.php

From the NY Times(you have to register, but most of the article is in the link above):


``It still can't officially be done, of course, but I can tell you we're confident that this will move forward,'' Rogers said in a phone interview. ``We're excited about the prospects. We're confident that Shaquille will be moving to Miami soon.''

The expected deal would have Miami shipping out Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, one other player who could be Caron Butler, plus a first-round Draft choice, to the Lakers in exchange for the 340-pound, dominant big man.


...I just doubt Perkins has quicker, more reliable sources than the NY Times, as he doesn't even know that Stephen Jackson was dealt.

Atila
07-12-2004, 06:09 AM
im from LA and i huge shaq fan...sure i love kobe but it is pure stupidity to say kobe or anyone else in the NBA brings as much impact into a game as shaq does

for LA, it sucks for the short term, especially LA being in the west, we need a center now ASAP

in the long run, shaq has about 4 years left in him, max, and he has some injury problems sometimes...so i think if odom stays out of trouble (drugs) this will be a long term success for the lakers even if odom doesnt perform how he did in miami (which he obviousely wont in the bigger western conference)

but now i just thought about it...grant is getting worse each year, odom had one good year and wont be nearly as good this year or any year he plays in the west and butler digressed alot from his rookie season (whatever the reason maybe)


****! :)

Frayser
07-12-2004, 08:29 AM
If Memphis used their entire MLE, does that mean they've given up on bringing Swift back?

kud
07-12-2004, 08:33 AM
If Shaq and Wade can average 30 points a game, that's huge, but where is the rest of the scoring going to be coming from without Odom, Grant, and Butler???....

First of all, Grant didn't put up big numbers. Butler seemed to only show up every other game(though he was maturing).

I like this deal, I'm ready to see the Heat win a championship. And with big shaq, and a young extremely talented 2nd year player like Wade, I think our chances just got that much better.

To answer your question, Haslem, and R. Butler will put up at least and average of 6-10 ppg each getting starter minutes, and Eddie seems to put up close to 20ppg consistantly each year.

I like Haslem a lot, I think he looked great coming off the bench.

Shaq + Kobe won back-to back-to back titles, basicly all alone. What makes you think Shaq + Wade can't do the same? Although Shaq is a bit older, I think we have better role players, than the Lakers did during their great run.

Den54
07-12-2004, 09:07 AM
First of all, Grant didn't put up big numbers. Butler seemed to only show up every other game(though he was maturing).

I like this deal, I'm ready to see the Heat win a championship. And with big shaq, and a young extremely talented 2nd year player like Wade, I think our chances just got that much better.

To answer your question, Haslem, and R. Butler will put up at least and average of 6-10 ppg each getting starter minutes, and Eddie seems to put up close to 20ppg consistantly each year.

I like Haslem a lot, I think he looked great coming off the bench.

Shaq + Kobe won back-to back-to back titles, basicly all alone. What makes you think Shaq + Wade can't do the same? Although Shaq is a bit older, I think we have better role players, than the Lakers did during their great run.

I guess Robert Horey, Rick Fox, Derrick Fisher ect did'nt play any key roles in those championship years huh? Basicly all alone? :rolleyes: And now you have better role players? :roflmao:

rhadaddy
07-12-2004, 10:00 AM
[/B]

I guess Robert Horey, Rick Fox, Derrick Fisher ect did'nt play any key roles in those championship years huh? Basicly all alone? :rolleyes: And now you have better role players? :roflmao:

Yes you get the most dominating player in Basketball, but you dont get the big game clutch shooting of Robert Horry, the playmaking ability of Derek Fisher and
great role players like Rick Fox and Devean george.

D Wade will be great, but Eddie Jones or R. Butler is no Robert Horry in terms of Clutch shooting. Haslem (future 6th man of the year) will be great teamed up with Shaq in the post, but the heat by far has less talent than the old laker teams. Who's our backup center Wang Zhi Zhi :shakeno:

The only comforting factor is hopefully Shaq's presence alone will persuade more free agents to look the heat's way, Like a Karl Malone, Toni Kukoc, Derek Fisher, etc... not to mention the heat still have a high schooler who may suprise some people this year.

So let's hope Riley has a trick or two up his sleeve left. and let's hope Riley stays in the Front office, and van gundy remains the coach.

ChambersWI
07-12-2004, 12:13 PM
did you just call Devean George a great roleplayer :shakeno:

Samphin
07-12-2004, 12:16 PM
He can shine all he wants, but LA ain't going anywhere with Brian Grant at center(as much as I admire Grant's heart).

He might not yet be playing center for L.A., at least not starting. I highly doubt this is the final trade and final makeup of the L.A. Lakers. A sign and trade for Dampier perhaps might be in the making. Sending Gary Payton to his hometown along with someone like Rick Fox would more than make up the salary for Dampier (around 11 mil ). With Golden State inclined to lose him for nothing, they might jump at a deal to bring home the Oakland Native Payton and the veteren presence of Fox. Fox is rumored to retire anyways so getting that alsary to roll of woulf be nice as well. Plus, Gary's contract runs out next year too and that allows even more freedom for them. I would not be surprised to see this happen. Or perhaps snatching up Vlade Divac ( as much as I cannot stand the Big Flop ) with the MLE. I don't think L.A. is going to put all their hopes at Center on a 34 year old aching Brian Grant.

VJ1252
07-12-2004, 02:13 PM
He might not yet be playing center for L.A., at least not starting. I highly doubt this is the final trade and final makeup of the L.A. Lakers. A sign and trade for Dampier perhaps might be in the making. Sending Gary Payton to his hometown along with someone like Rick Fox would more than make up the salary for Dampier (around 11 mil ). With Golden State inclined to lose him for nothing, they might jump at a deal to bring home the Oakland Native Payton and the veteren presence of Fox. Fox is rumored to retire anyways so getting that alsary to roll of woulf be nice as well. Plus, Gary's contract runs out next year too and that allows even more freedom for them. I would not be surprised to see this happen. Or perhaps snatching up Vlade Divac ( as much as I cannot stand the Big Flop ) with the MLE. I don't think L.A. is going to put all their hopes at Center on a 34 year old aching Brian Grant.
I think GS would want a lot more than Payton and Malone. LA would probably have to give up Caron too.

Samphin
07-12-2004, 02:22 PM
I think GS would want a lot more than Payton and Malone. LA would probably have to give up Caron too.

I never said Malone, I said Fox. Malone is a free agent and will most likely retire, or follow the Big Feller to Miami. Fox has an albatross contract but one that could roll off right away(retirement) and give the Warriors some room. Also, Payton will probably only stay one year for them, but he would be returning to his home town and would probably mech well with the guys there. In Oakland, Gary would be the number one or two option, not fourth or fifth as he is in L.A.

The Lakers have a log jam at the 2/3 spot. So, I could see them possibly parting with George, Rush or Walton as well. Walton I would be opposed to though since he can play a bit at the 4 spot as well. Ideally, A trade for Payton, George and Fox to GS for Dampier would be outstanding. The Warriors are prepared to let Damp go for nothing, so the fact that they get something, anything, in return for him is a boon.

I doubt it happens, but as I type this, I see a report on ESPN.com that says Payton may want to go elsewhere since Shaq is now gone. Perhaps my fantasy trade will become a reality?

Fresh
07-12-2004, 02:34 PM
Remember that Caron Butler can't be traded for 60 days, once this trade is official(unless he's dealt within 24 hours).

Samphin
07-12-2004, 03:22 PM
Remember that Caron Butler can't be traded for 60 days, once this trade is official(unless he's dealt within 24 hours).

I don't think L.A. is getting Caron as trade bait. I believe this trade is somewhat the doing of Kobe Bryant and the players he wouldn't mind playing beside. Personally, I would like to see how a lineup of Fisher, Bryant, Butler, Odom and Grant would do. All in their 20's except Grant and all can run and shoot. It could be a throwback to the days of Showtime, although on a lower scale of course.

The Bottom line though is this. L.A. will have too many 2/3 type players once this trade is official. They will also lack in the big man department ( Grant, Slava, B. Cook and a rookie). Doing a sign and trade with G.S. makes sense to land Dampier and free up the logjam at the G/F spot. Having Bryant, Butler, Walton, and Rush man those spots is perfect since all can be interchanged or possibly on the floor at the same time ( with Walton sliding to the 4 Butler the 3, Rush at the 2 and Bryant manning the 1).

Also, this gives the Warriors a decent outside threat in George, Veterans in Payton and Fox and cap relief next year, since both Payton's and Fox's contracts roll off. Fox might even help them out and retire this year ( especially if he is traded). It makes sense to me.

Fresh
07-12-2004, 03:39 PM
Personally, I would like to see how a lineup of Fisher, Bryant, Butler, Odom and Grant would do. All in their 20's except Grant and all can run and shoot.

Trust me, if you're a Lakers fan...you don't want a front court of Odom & Grant out in the West, as I wasn't happy with it in the East.

Samphin
07-12-2004, 03:51 PM
Trust me, if you're a Lakers fan...you don't want a front court of Odom & Grant out in the West, as I wasn't happy with it in the East.

As for the Heat, I know I mentioned Mo'Pete earlier, but it may take the close to(if not all) of the full MLE to sway Toronto away from matching. I would love to split the MLE between Rodney White(SF) & Damon Jones(PG), then sign Keon Clark(PF/C) for the LLE.

Again, you're going to get some players worth the LLE for the minimum with the Diesel in town. We may be able to find some decent backups for the minimum..

PG-Dwyane Wade, Damon Jones
SG-Eddie Jones, Dorell Wright
SF-Rodney White, Rasual Butler
PF-Udonis Haslem, Keon Clark, Malik Allen
C-Shaquille O'Neal, Keon Clark

I'd be perfectly fine with that.

CO, I wouldn't want that proposed L.A. lineup in their at all times. They would get eaten up by the west centers. Duncan, Yao, Garnett, and even Brad Miller would have their way. Again, I wouldn't mind that lineup when needing to open up the offense and play some run and gun. Ideally, someone like Dampier would be a nice pickup to bang the boards and big bodies underneath, sliding Grant down to PF and Odom to the SF spot, where he creates all kinds of mismatches with his 6'10" frame.

For me an LA roster as follows is good for moi:

PG: Fisher, Vujacic(rookie)
SG: Bryant, Butler, Rush
SF: Odom, Butler, Walton
PF: Grant, Odom, Medvedenko, Douthit, Cook
C: Dampier, Grant, Douthit(rookie)

This gives the rookie PG, which L.A. is high on some quality time behind the veteran Fisher. Vujacic is a quality passer who can run as well. A perfect guy to feed the ball to Bryant, Odom and Butler. This also frees up part of the logjam at the 2/3 spots and gives Walton more playing time as well as Rush, who has improved his 3 point shot. The odd man out may be Brian Cook who could be behind Odom, Grant and Medvedenko at the PF and may even slip behind the rookie Douthit. A front court of Dampier, Grant and Odom would be great for going up against teams such as Minnesota and San Antonio who have athletic big men. Odom can help out along with Grant on the faster PF's/C's while Dampier handles the big guys (such as Shaq, who he has done ok against) for rebounds and defense. This would be my realistic and ideal lineup for next year.

kud
07-12-2004, 05:58 PM
[/B]

I guess Robert Horey, Rick Fox, Derrick Fisher ect did'nt play any key roles in those championship years huh? Basicly all alone? :rolleyes: And now you have better role players? :roflmao:

None of those guys consistanly put up decent numbers. Horry, hit big shots in crunch time(He is now struggling in SA) Derrick fisher was solid, I'll give you that. And Rick Fox is just crap :rolleyes:

Anyways, I guess these guys were big peices at times, But the point I'm getting at is, who really wouldn't be a big role player when teaming with Kobe + Shaq? Only now it will be Wade + Shaq. And Wade is a superstar on the rise. Acquring Shaq, just made Wade's life that much easier. If not for picking up Shaq, teams would be game planning for Wade alone. Now that they have the Diesel to worry about, teams won't be doubling up on Wade nearly as much, if at all!

Eddie Jones is better than all three of these guys alone. Udonis Haslem was great off the bench last season as a rookie. And I see no reason why he wouldn't have a shot at starting. I've also been hearing talk of the "mailman" signing a 1 year deal, and coming over to play the PF position for us.

Den54
07-12-2004, 06:07 PM
None of those guys consistanly put up big numbers. Horry, hit big shots in crunch time(He is now struggling in SA) Derrick fisher was solid, I'll give you that. And Rick Fox is just crap :rolleyes:

Eddie Jones is better than all three of these guys alone. Udonis Haslem was great off the bench last season as a rookie. And I see no reason why he wouldn't have a shot at starting. I've also been hearing talk of the "mailman" signing a 1 year deal, and coming over to play the PF position for us.

Homer response. :rolleyes: Those guys did'nt have to put up big numbers, but their shots fell when they needed to. Thats what role players provide. They come thru when it counts. In case you did'nt notice the mailman does'nt deliver any more.

Samphin
07-12-2004, 06:42 PM
None of those guys consistanly put up decent numbers. Horry, hit big shots in crunch time(He is now struggling in SA) Derrick fisher was solid, I'll give you that. And Rick Fox is just crap :rolleyes:

Anyways, I guess these guys were big peices at times, But the point I'm getting at is, who really wouldn't be a big role player when teaming with Kobe + Shaq? Only now it will be Wade + Shaq. And Wade is a superstar on the rise. Acquring Shaq, just made Wade's life that much easier. If not for picking up Shaq, teams would be game planning for Wade alone. Now that they have the Diesel to worry about, teams won't be doubling up on Wade nearly as much, if at all!

Eddie Jones is better than all three of these guys alone. Udonis Haslem was great off the bench last season as a rookie. And I see no reason why he wouldn't have a shot at starting. I've also been hearing talk of the "mailman" signing a 1 year deal, and coming over to play the PF position for us.

Horry Fisher and Fox played their roles perfectly. Eddie might be more of a complete player than those three, but he constantly gets shots in Miami and has a chance to shoot himself out of a funk. Horry, Fisher and Fox, basically had to wait until they got a few shots and had to hit them while cold. Eddie gets more opportunities, at least until now. Wade and Shaq should gobble up most of the attempts. But even if those guys were to average 30 a piece ( which will not happen), that is still an extra 30-40 points your "role players" will have to make up. That is where Fisher, Fox, and Horry excelled and where the rest of the Heat will have to in order to.

Horry did more than just make "big shots" He and Fox did a lot of the dirty work that doesn't get much attention. They took charges, played tough defense that took great offenses out of their rhythem ( Rick Fox was great at this ). They hit shots when they were supposed to (with few exceptions) and never eally complained about their jobs. They also provided good leadership through hectic times and helped the young guys such as Walton, Rush and George up their games to what they are now (although, I admit, George's game isn't very high still).

Don't underestimate what those players can do. While you may think Eddie, and Haslem can do this, it is often hard to adjust to that type of role when you are used to something else. Glen Rice, Samaki Walker and others can attest to that. They all failed in their roles next to Shaq.

kud
07-13-2004, 01:16 AM
Homer response. :rolleyes: Those guys did'nt have to put up big numbers, but their shots fell when they needed to. Thats what role players provide. They come thru when it counts. In case you did'nt notice the mailman does'nt deliver any more.


Why do you think that is? Maybe because nobody was worried about them? They dared them to hit their shots(which they did most of the time) but more often than not they were open looks. Eddie Jones played just about all of last year with a man, sometimes two in his grill. And still manages to put up 17.5 ppg. I don't see how that is at all homeristic. :shakeno:

VJ1252
07-13-2004, 03:14 AM
Yes you get the most dominating player in Basketball, but you dont get the big game clutch shooting of Robert Horry, the playmaking ability of Derek Fisher and
great role players like Rick Fox and Devean george.

D Wade will be great, but Eddie Jones or R. Butler is no Robert Horry in terms of Clutch shooting. Haslem (future 6th man of the year) will be great teamed up with Shaq in the post, but the heat by far has less talent than the old laker teams. Who's our backup center Wang Zhi Zhi :shakeno:

The only comforting factor is hopefully Shaq's presence alone will persuade more free agents to look the heat's way, Like a Karl Malone, Toni Kukoc, Derek Fisher, etc... not to mention the heat still have a high schooler who may suprise some people this year.

So let's hope Riley has a trick or two up his sleeve left. and let's hope Riley stays in the Front office, and van gundy remains the coach.
You waay overrate the Lakers role players. Derek Fishers playmaking ability??? Are you talking about passing it to Shaq or when you give it to Kobe and get out of the way? Jason Kidd has playmaking ability, Fisher is just a point guard who has a decent(not great) outside shot, cant play D, and knows to give the ball to shaq. Robert Horry is known for making clutch shots but the fact is he missed some too like 2 years ago against SA. And last year with the Spurs he had a terrible 3PT % in the playoffs. Who was the lakers backup center? Slave Medvedenko?:roflmao:

Samphin
07-13-2004, 12:45 PM
You waay overrate the Lakers role players. Derek Fishers playmaking ability??? Are you talking about passing it to Shaq or when you give it to Kobe and get out of the way? Jason Kidd has playmaking ability, Fisher is just a point guard who has a decent(not great) outside shot, cant play D, and knows to give the ball to shaq. Robert Horry is known for making clutch shots but the fact is he missed some too like 2 years ago against SA. And last year with the Spurs he had a terrible 3PT % in the playoffs. Who was the lakers backup center? Slave Medvedenko?:roflmao:


Medevedenko is more proven than Wang. Fisher is a GREAT three point shooter and a guy you want on the floor late in games when a big shot is needed ( See: SA series ) His D lacked some but he was a master at taking charges and creating turnovers. He played more like a SG than a PG because Kobe generally made the intial drive and dish ( or sometimes shot) While Fisher sat outside and took set shots, and made them.

Horry was unique because of his ability to "flip the switch" in the playoffs. He played good defense and again, provided a bunch of intangibles. But ocme playoff time, he knew he had to step his game up even more and made countless clutch shots for L.A. When he quit doing that, they let him go. Fox was a tenacious defender who would get steals, poke balls lose, make whoever he was defending make mistakes. They often times would end up traveling or throwing the ball away. He also had big shot ability, although his were overshadowed by the likes of Horry, Fisher and Kobe.

The main point you are missing is this. Both Fox and Horry came form situations where they were more of a focla point in the offense. Perhaps not the MAIN point, but they had a bigger role in scoring (especially Fox in Boston), when they came here, they had to sacrifice their scoring and alter their game to accomodate the big man. They settled into their roles and did an outstanding job in those roles, without constant whining.

Eddie Jones is a scorer, he likes to shoot and defend. Wade is going to be a scorer. SHAQ is now your main scorer. I believe Wade will benefit in the short term having Shaq around. Eddie and the others? It is going to be tough to really say. They will have to alter their games somewhat, learn to play without the ball and get used to not having a shot for perhaps an entire quarter as the ball keeps going into Shaq. Then, after a lot of standing around, they might be put in a spot where they need to hit a game tieing three while haivng not shot in minutes or quarters. Do you think they can do that? It is a lot harder than you think. That is what made the Laker role players so good. The ability to step up and bang it home while haivng limited shots.

Some palyers when they don't get shots, disappear in the game, don't play defense and take themselves out of the game mentally. Shaq is one of those players. I hope your role players aren't. I think Jones will be fine, but your other guys I don't know enough about to say that.

Den54
07-13-2004, 01:31 PM
Now thats Shaq is in Miami the FA'S will be flocking down there.

Doleac has agreed to sign with the heat.

Denver's first subtraction of the summer came Monday night when center Michael Doleac agreed to a four-year, guaranteed deal with the Miami Heat.

"We were always hoping Denver would work out, but with the other stuff they're working on, it went down to New Orleans and Miami," agent Glenn Schwartzman said.

Doleac, claimed off waivers in February, averaged 3.6 points and 2.9 rebounds in 26 games with Denver.

"We understand," Fredman said. "He did a terrific job for us in the time he was here. Guys like that you just wish them well."

Doleac is a stud!! :lol:

VJ1252
07-13-2004, 11:26 PM
ESPN just said there is potential snag in shaq trade. They havent said what it is yet.

Fresh
07-14-2004, 07:32 AM
The first paragraph is just based on what I know for a fact(similar to what Stephen A. Smith said, but he was too stupid to estimate 15% of $55m, so the idiot said it would add between $5 million & $10 million), but the rest are opinions..

Odom's contract has a "trade kicker" in it, which adds about 15% of the $55 million left on his contract throughout the next 5-years. That adds about $8.3 million onto his contract, and from what a few insiders have said...is that this has to be frontloaded onto his current deal. If Lamar isn't traded, the $8.3 million isn't added. If he is, which he likely will be, the $8.3 million is added. More could be added because of that $13 million bonus left on LO's contract, but it definately cannot be less than $8 million.

This could be a problem for a team like the Lakers who currently don't have a center, and there aren't many left(they don't have what it takes to acquire Erick Dampier in a s&t right now, and their team sources confirmed yesterday that there is no interest). What this would cause is trouble in the upcoming years when trying to acquire a center.

Guess what? This is all a bunch of bullsh*t. Even I knew about Odom's trade kicker. Everybody at RealGM, BBallBoards.net, Espn's boards, and LakersTalk knew about the trade kicker from last week. You're telling me that after analyzing this deal for the past 72 hours, the Lakers team officials had no idea about this, and it's one of the most obvious clauses in his contract? That's bullsh*t. I believe this trade is being held up because the Clippers may be edging in on Kobe. Last night, the Clippers sent Eddie House & Melvin Ely to the Bobcats for a future 2nd round pick to clear up enough space to be able to offer Kobe more money. They wouldn't do that if there wasn't atleast a 40-50% chance he'd sign there.

The thing is, without Kobe re-signing with the Lakers...I don't see them doing this deal, which hasn't been officially finalized. The Lakers would then have holes at SG & Center...as well as potentially PG, if Payton forces a buyout. There isn't much left out there in free agency, and neither Caron Butler or Lamar Odom can play the 2 for more than limited minutes. I'd guess that Kareem Rush would start, but there still would be holes at 2 spots. I would not start Lamar Odom at the 4 in the West to begin with, and Brian Grant isn't even a true center in the East, so he's going to get killed out there in the West.

This trade doesn't make sense for the Lakers to begin with. They now have Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Devean George(who is injured but will be back), and Rick Fox at SF. Talk about a log jam..:rolleyes:

Samphin
07-14-2004, 03:12 PM
The first paragraph is just based on what I know for a fact(similar to what Stephen A. Smith said, but he was too stupid to estimate 15% of $55m, so the idiot said it would add between $5 million & $10 million), but the rest are opinions..

Odom's contract has a "trade kicker" in it, which adds about 15% of the $55 million left on his contract throughout the next 5-years. That adds about $8.3 million onto his contract, and from what a few insiders have said...is that this has to be frontloaded onto his current deal. If Lamar isn't traded, the $8.3 million isn't added. If he is, which he likely will be, the $8.3 million is added. More could be added because of that $13 million bonus left on LO's contract, but it definately cannot be less than $8 million.

This could be a problem for a team like the Lakers who currently don't have a center, and there aren't many left(they don't have what it takes to acquire Erick Dampier in a s&t right now, and their team sources confirmed yesterday that there is no interest). What this would cause is trouble in the upcoming years when trying to acquire a center.

Guess what? This is all a bunch of bullsh*t. Even I knew about Odom's trade kicker. Everybody at RealGM, BBallBoards.net, Espn's boards, and LakersTalk knew about the trade kicker from last week. You're telling me that after analyzing this deal for the past 72 hours, the Lakers team officials had no idea about this, and it's one of the most obvious clauses in his contract? That's bullsh*t. I believe this trade is being held up because the Clippers may be edging in on Kobe. Last night, the Clippers sent Eddie House & Melvin Ely to the Bobcats for a future 2nd round pick to clear up enough space to be able to offer Kobe more money. They wouldn't do that if there wasn't atleast a 40-50% chance he'd sign there.

The thing is, without Kobe re-signing with the Lakers...I don't see them doing this deal, which hasn't been officially finalized. The Lakers would then have holes at SG & Center...as well as potentially PG, if Payton forces a buyout. There isn't much left out there in free agency, and neither Caron Butler or Lamar Odom can play the 2 for more than limited minutes. I'd guess that Kareem Rush would start, but there still would be holes at 2 spots. I would not start Lamar Odom at the 4 in the West to begin with, and Brian Grant isn't even a true center in the East, so he's going to get killed out there in the West.

This trade doesn't make sense for the Lakers to begin with. They now have Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Devean George(who is injured but will be back), and Rick Fox at SF. Talk about a log jam..:rolleyes:

Yeah but Fox is most likely retiring and George is most likely going to be traded or see his playing time cut drastically.

ESPNews just reported it as OFFICAL. Shaq is a MIAMI HEAT player. Congrats to you guys and good luck!

Section126
07-15-2004, 12:04 AM
Terry...I know that Odom played PF for us this year....but I said that Shaq is Odom's replacement as in "scorer"....It is rather lopsided......Odom at best is a 20 point a game scorer.....Shaq will average at least 25.....if not more this season.....

We robbed the Lakers........

LIQUID24
07-15-2004, 12:06 AM
We robbed the Lakers........
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

SMadison29
07-15-2004, 11:36 PM
I never said Malone, I said Fox. Malone is a free agent and will most likely retire, or follow the Big Feller to Miami.

You have the two mixed up. Malone has become good friends with Kobe & will most likely be back with the Lakers. They could really use a healthy Malone for his defense & rebounding. Grant-Malone-Odom-Kobe-Payton with Butler, Walton, & Rush coming off the bench could still contend. A Grant for Dampier trade is advisable.

Fox is the one that's most likely retiring.