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inFINSible
07-12-2004, 08:32 AM
Both sides. No exceptions they all suck!! Why would I even care what any one of these political BS artists think or do. Arguing over who is better is like arguing over which piece of **** has a better smell.

It doesn't matter!

Why would I trust decisions that affect my life with any politician.

Sorry, to all you guys that think arguing about morons is a fruitful endeavor, I just don't see it.

JMO, but I had to say it.

WharfRat
07-12-2004, 09:50 AM
Dude,

While I see your point, and understand your frustration.... I would tend to say that the apathetic ideology that you seem to embrace, is exactly what makes elections meaningless....

JMO ;)

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 10:08 AM
Is my one single vote going to make a difference?

I'm not trying to come off with nothing but smack here, it's just that the deeper you look the murkier it gets.

Even just perusing posts in this forum, while I'm not up to speed on any of the details by any stretch of the imagination, even my untrained eyes can detect that the BS flows deep. The spin doctoring is astonishing. I've always heard the saying that you can use a quote out of the Bible to back your point no matter what you believe, well the same holds true in politics. No matter what the action there is always someone on both sides making either sunshine or stormclouds out of every decision.

Do I really want to waste time trying to figure out who is lying less???

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 10:28 AM
Even if the choice is between bad and worse...your vote counts. Look at how close the race in Florida was last year. Now, if you lived in NEw York, I'd say no, your vote is meaningless. But not in Florida.

WharfRat
07-12-2004, 11:46 AM
My point.... if everyone takes the stance that their vote is meaningless, then there is no vote, because nobody cares enough to go to the polls... then what do we have?

1 Penny is almost worthless... save up a hundred of them, you have a dollar, etc, etc....

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 11:46 AM
Even if the choice is between bad and worse...your vote counts. Look at how close the race in Florida was last year. Now, if you lived in NEw York, I'd say no, your vote is meaningless. But not in Florida.

Who is bad and who is worse?? It's impossible to tell. Especially for someone like me. I read one side of an argument and I think, that's asinine. Then I read the other side of the argument and I think, that's asinine.

How, is somone like myself supposed to weed through all the bias to find the truth? Is there any truth to find?

Am I supposed to spend hours upon days studying the candidates trying to figure out which one is the lesser evil.

F that. There isn't enough difference to be concerned about.

I have to believe that there are inumerable non-voters out there who feel just like me. It's not worth the effort to vote in one jerk-off over another.

WharfRat
07-12-2004, 11:48 AM
It's not worth the effort to vote in one jerk-off over another.


So then... who do we let pick which "jerk-off" leads our country? :huh:

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 11:52 AM
My point.... if everyone takes the stance that their vote is meaningless, then there is no vote, because nobody cares enough to go to the polls... then what do we have?

1 Penny is almost worthless... save up a hundred of them, you have a dollar, etc, etc....
But my stance is not so much that my vote is meaningless, as much as I don't want any of the candidates making decisions that affect my life.

What's that saying....Anyone who wants to be a politician should be disqualified immediately. Something like that....I agree. No one is doing it for the good of their fellow man, it's all a big game.

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 11:56 AM
So then... who do we let pick which "jerk-off" leads our country? :huh: The same people who do it now. The lobby's and the wealthy.

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 11:59 AM
But my stance is not so much that my vote is meaningless, as much as I don't want any of the candidates making decisions that affect my life.

What's that saying....Anyone who wants to be a politician should be disqualified immediately. Something like that....I agree. No one is doing it for the good of their fellow man, it's all a big game.


Plato's Philosopher King. But since we don't have any of those available, I'd say take a look at who has done what during their political careers. For Bush that would be his time as Gov of Texas, and PResident. For KErry his time as Senator.Decide which of the two has acted in a manner more in line with what you deem most important. Prior to that you should of course decide which issues are most imprtant to you. For me if my views on Abortion were upermost, I'd never vote for Bush. But my views on the economy and foreign relations ARE upermost, so I would never vote for KErry.

Bling
07-12-2004, 12:05 PM
http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

take the quiz. I think AOL is liberal so they might lead you the other way. They tried convincing me that Kerry was my man. I took the quiz again, and I got a Bush was my man.

and if you wonder about if your "right wing" or "left wing"

take this quiz
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

WharfRat
07-12-2004, 12:08 PM
The same people who do it now. The lobby's and the wealthy.


so you are content to allow that, and not have any say in it at all?

using that philosophy, we should simply meld back into the British Empire, and allow the King/Queen to rule us...

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 12:25 PM
http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

take the quiz. I think AOL is liberal so they might lead you the other way. They tried convincing me that Kerry was my man. I took the quiz again, and I got a Bush was my man.

and if you wonder about if your "right wing" or "left wing"

take this quiz
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

71% Kerry....

The advocates quiz....
According to your answers, your political philosophy is on the border of: left-liberal and libertarian

ltfinfan
07-12-2004, 12:31 PM
i am amazed at ppl who are like this. yes you need to take the time to study the canidates figure out which one is closest to your views if you don't like any of them then write some one in. With all that goes on in the world you should be thankful you have a choice even if you feel it is limited. Other ppl in the world would love to be able to vote. If you want a change then find an alternative party to join if enough of you get together you can effect change.

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 12:34 PM
so you are content to allow that, and not have any say in it at all?

using that philosophy, we should simply meld back into the British Empire, and allow the King/Queen to rule us... Okay, let's say I put forth a massive effort to organize change. I gather as many signatures or followers as I can. I get out and encourage others to vote, I do everything that my lack of funding allows me to do while still maintaining a job and household.

Let's say that my efforts are so great that my grassroots movement actually gets noticed.

The next step is getting crushed like a bug when the lobbys and the wealthy get slightly nervous that I may actually effect some sort of change.

*pop* dream over.

Bling
07-12-2004, 12:35 PM
vote for Kerry then. From the political compass, it looks like you like Kerry. Of course, if you're for the war, you might have to pick Bush.

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 12:37 PM
http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

take the quiz. I think AOL is liberal so they might lead you the other way. They tried convincing me that Kerry was my man. I took the quiz again, and I got a Bush was my man.

and if you wonder about if your "right wing" or "left wing"

take this quiz
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

BTW, thank you for providing an example of the BS.

No offense, but, how do I, Joe Uninformed Voter, know that AOL is liberal and therefore the results of the test may be skewed??

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 12:42 PM
http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main

take the quiz. I think AOL is liberal so they might lead you the other way. They tried convincing me that Kerry was my man. I took the quiz again, and I got a Bush was my man.

and if you wonder about if your "right wing" or "left wing"

take this quiz
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

Lol...here are my results



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Kerry Score: 60%

Party Democrat
Has Held Elected Office Yes
Served in the Military Yes

Compare with other candidates




2 Bush Score: 50%

Party Republican
Has Held Elected Office Yes
Served in the Military Yes

Compare with other candidates




3 Kucinich Score: 33%

Party Democrat
Has Held Elected Office Yes
Served in the Military No

Compare with other candidates

________________________________________________

So much for voting by computer... :evil:

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 12:42 PM
i am amazed at ppl who are like this. yes you need to take the time to study the canidates figure out which one is closest to your views if you don't like any of them then write some one in. With all that goes on in the world you should be thankful you have a choice even if you feel it is limited. Other ppl in the world would love to be able to vote. If you want a change then find an alternative party to join if enough of you get together you can effect change.
Regardless of how you feel about me and the others like me, according to percentage of people voting, I'm in the vast majority.

Sure I could join an alternative party and I could look forward to being trounced soundly in every election. Whooo-pee.

Bling
07-12-2004, 12:43 PM
I might have made that sound worse than it is. AOL is liberal, but more than likely, they aren't lying. You should vote for Kerry.

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 12:44 PM
Okay, let's say I put forth a massive effort to organize change. I gather as many signatures or followers as I can. I get out and encourage others to vote, I do everything that my lack of funding allows me to do while still maintaining a job and household.

Let's say that my efforts are so great that my grassroots movement actually gets noticed.

The next step is getting crushed like a bug when the lobbys and the wealthy get slightly nervous that I may actually effect some sort of change.

*pop* dream over.


Ah...the "Attention Span of a Gnat" generation. God forbid you try something worthwhile that may fail . I guess that "if at first you aren't guarranteed to succeed, well fu@k it, why bother anyway"?

Bling
07-12-2004, 12:45 PM
Lol...here are my results



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Kerry Score: 60%

Party Democrat
Has Held Elected Office Yes
Served in the Military Yes

Compare with other candidates




2 Bush Score: 50%

Party Republican
Has Held Elected Office Yes
Served in the Military Yes

Compare with other candidates




3 Kucinich Score: 33%

Party Democrat
Has Held Elected Office Yes
Served in the Military No

Compare with other candidates

________________________________________________

So much for voting by computer... :evil:


you're for Bush, right?

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 12:50 PM
you're for Bush, right?

Well...51% FOR Bush....95% AGAINST Kerry. I can only say a few good things about Bush, but KErry scares the crap out of me. I would have voted for Lieberman if he had been nominated.

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 12:57 PM
Ah...the "Attention Span of a Gnat" generation. God forbid you try something worthwhile that may fail . I guess that "if at first you aren't guarranteed to succeed, well fu@k it, why bother anyway"?

May fail???

I wondered how many posts you would go before insulting me.

3....that must be a record.

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 01:05 PM
May fail???

I wondered how many posts you would go before insulting me.

3....that must be a record.

Come on InFin, this isn't an insult aimed at you...it's aimed at a mindset that pervades much of the country. You ARE in the majority with this post. You ARE the average American right now. Seriously, this is NOT an attack or an insult aimed at you. If you took it that way than you have my sincere apologies. But it drives me crazy when I see this mindset put forward. Freedom and Democracy are HARD. They take WORK. YES, you will fail nine times out of ten when you try to initiate change. But it's that 10th time when it's all worthwhile. Do you think that the wealthy and powerful brought about the Civil Rights movement? Do you think the wealthy and powerful kept the Internet free? Fine, so you may not be able to influence the Presidential election this year. Influence something small and work your way up. Again, I apologize if you took that as an insult. It was meant as a commentary on the state of the nation.

inFINSible
07-12-2004, 01:27 PM
Come on InFin, this isn't an insult aimed at you...it's aimed at a mindset that pervades much of the country. You ARE in the majority with this post. You ARE the average American right now. Seriously, this is NOT an attack or an insult aimed at you. If you took it that way than you have my sincere apologies. But it drives me crazy when I see this mindset put forward. Freedom and Democracy are HARD. They take WORK. YES, you will fail nine times out of ten when you try to initiate change. But it's that 10th time when it's all worthwhile. Do you think that the wealthy and powerful brought about the Civil Rights movement? Do you think the wealthy and powerful kept the Internet free? Fine, so you may not be able to influence the Presidential election this year. Influence something small and work your way up. Again, I apologize if you took that as an insult. It was meant as a commentary on the state of the nation.
I apologize. I took it the wrong way. :o

I see your point....I can't just decide to start playing pro ball if I've never even played HS ball, right? food for thought, thanks.

PhinPhan1227
07-12-2004, 01:34 PM
I apologize. I took it the wrong way. :o

I see your point....I can't just decide to start playing pro ball if I've never even played HS ball, right? food for thought, thanks.

No problem man...It's a product of the Information Revolution. Piggybacking on your analogy, the nation used to live and breath over it's local High School football teams. But once the NFL became king it's only small towns in the south that still care. Same thing with politics. When people didn't have 24 hour information being pounded into them daily about the National and International political movements they still cared who got elected to their local school boards. Now, if they aren't personally telling George Bush how to deal with China they can't be bothered.

t2thejz
07-12-2004, 06:32 PM
I got 71% Bush
I got 36% Kerry
I got 19% Kucinich

themole
07-12-2004, 06:50 PM
BTW, thank you for providing an example of the BS.

No offense, but, how do I, Joe Uninformed Voter, know that AOL is liberal and therefore the results of the test may be skewed??


infins...here's a suggestion. If you have not done it yet, get yourself a copy of the U.S. Constitution. Read over it, study it a while. This document was NOT written for the lawyers to interpret, it was written for we the people to understand immediatley. Once you get the feel for what our founding fathers intended to establish here concerning "inalienable rights" economy and such, compare it to which party is closest to what the founders intended.

Thomas Jefferson - “Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.”

IMO...both parties have strayed from the original intent.

In the "State of the Union" address our nation refered to as "Ship of State", our good nation is like a sailing vessel on the high seas, subjected to the storms of political war, economic wars, but most threatening of all are the "Fire Storms of apathy". Today it's easy to "Not Vote", tomorrow we may be fighting for the very right to vote.

Americans will not be BULLIED, we do tend to be a little laid back.

Thomas Jefferson - “Eternal Vigilance is the price of liberty.”

I believe EVERY U.S. citizen has liberty embedded in their heart and has a basic understanding of those things that threaten it. Just take the time, ask yourself some common since questions about who is best trying to preserve those liberties and vote always for the CONSTITUTION as best you can understand it.

themole
07-12-2004, 07:02 PM
No problem man...It's a product of the Information Revolution. Piggybacking on your analogy, the nation used to live and breath over it's local High School football teams. But once the NFL became king it's only small towns in the south that still care. Same thing with politics. When people didn't have 24 hour information being pounded into them daily about the National and International political movements they still cared who got elected to their local school boards. Now, if they aren't personally telling George Bush how to deal with China they can't be bothered.

Very good, Very good! That is also what represents the color red on the electorial college map and put "W" in office.

The_Philster
07-12-2004, 07:10 PM
I'm usually the same way in the elections...usually just a case of two idiots with little difference between them. This time, Bush has just gotta go before he screws things up further, IMO.

WharfRat
07-12-2004, 10:28 PM
infins...here's a suggestion. If you have not done it yet, get yourself a copy of the U.S. Constitution. Read over it, study it a while. This document was NOT written for the lawyers to interpret, it was written for we the people to understand immediatley. Once you get the feel for what our founding fathers intended to establish here concerning "inalienable rights" economy and such, compare it to which party is closest to what the founders intended.

Thomas Jefferson - “Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.”

IMO...both parties have strayed from the original intent.

In the "State of the Union" address our nation refered to as "Ship of State", our good nation is like a sailing vessel on the high seas, subjected to the storms of political war, economic wars, but most threatening of all are the "Fire Storms of apathy". Today it's easy to "Not Vote", tomorrow we may be fighting for the very right to vote.

Americans will not be BULLIED, we do tend to be a little laid back.

Thomas Jefferson - “Eternal Vigilance is the price of liberty.”

I believe EVERY U.S. citizen has liberty embedded in their heart and has a basic understanding of those things that threaten it. Just take the time, ask yourself some common since questions about who is best trying to preserve those liberties and vote always for the CONSTITUTION as best you can understand it.


:up: :clap: :yeahthat: :cool2:


OUTSTANDING Post Mole!!!

ohall
07-12-2004, 10:34 PM
This is an EXCELLENT thread. Good job guys!

Oliver...

inFINSible
07-13-2004, 06:27 PM
infins...here's a suggestion. If you have not done it yet, get yourself a copy of the U.S. Constitution. Read over it, study it a while. This document was NOT written for the lawyers to interpret, it was written for we the people to understand immediatley. Once you get the feel for what our founding fathers intended to establish here concerning "inalienable rights" economy and such, compare it to which party is closest to what the founders intended.

Thomas Jefferson - “Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.”

IMO...both parties have strayed from the original intent.

In the "State of the Union" address our nation refered to as "Ship of State", our good nation is like a sailing vessel on the high seas, subjected to the storms of political war, economic wars, but most threatening of all are the "Fire Storms of apathy". Today it's easy to "Not Vote", tomorrow we may be fighting for the very right to vote.

Americans will not be BULLIED, we do tend to be a little laid back.

Thomas Jefferson - “Eternal Vigilance is the price of liberty.”

I believe EVERY U.S. citizen has liberty embedded in their heart and has a basic understanding of those things that threaten it. Just take the time, ask yourself some common since questions about who is best trying to preserve those liberties and vote always for the CONSTITUTION as best you can understand it.
Thanks Mole.....my bad for not saying anything sooner.....I will do it. :D

inFINSible
07-13-2004, 06:59 PM
Plato's Philosopher King. But since we don't have any of those available, I'd say take a look at who has done what during their political careers. For Bush that would be his time as Gov of Texas, and PResident. For KErry his time as Senator.Decide which of the two has acted in a manner more in line with what you deem most important. Prior to that you should of course decide which issues are most imprtant to you. For me if my views on Abortion were upermost, I'd never vote for Bush. But my views on the economy and foreign relations ARE upermost, so I would never vote for KErry.Had to look it up but, I know what Plato's philosopher King means now. :D
This was an interesting read. (http://www.ak13.com/article.php?id=138&PHPSESSID=d254c235776b4c8b1f0fe0b8e470ef78)