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ABrownLamp
07-17-2004, 11:08 PM
Wanna know why all Bush's ads exclusively revolve around trashing Kerry? Because he's got nothing else to run on.

can he run on the economy? jobs? education? nope.

just the war on terror. hey whatever happened to that Osama guy? Is the al Queda regime still around? do we have less of a terrorist threat today because of Bush? no again.

Granted Kerry doesn't have a plan yet, but let's be honest, could it really be any worse than Bush's.

DolphinDevil28
07-17-2004, 11:12 PM
Please learn what you are talking about, then we can have a good debate.

In case you haven't noticed, the economy is having it's largest growth period in 20 years. That's right, it's even outgrowing Clinton's economic period. (which was because of the dot.com era and a Republican congress anyway)

You probably don't know this though because the damn liberal media doesn't want you to know.

And you ever think that GW has negative campaigning about Kerry because 1. Kerry slung mud first and 2. THERE IS SO DAMN MUCH BAD STUFF ABOUT KERRY TO AIR ON TV!!!

iceblizzard69
07-17-2004, 11:15 PM
The economy has been doing well lately so Bush could use that, but he doesn't have anything else he can use. However, Bush isn't the only one who bashes his opponent. Kerry does it and pretty much every politician in America does it as well.


And you ever think that GW has negative campaigning about Kerry because 1. Kerry slung mud first and 2. THERE IS SO DAMN MUCH BAD STUFF ABOUT KERRY TO AIR ON TV!!!

Yeah, and there is even more bad stuff about Bush, but those who blindly agree with everything he does can't realize that.

DolphinDevil28
07-17-2004, 11:18 PM
iceblizzard, do you REALLY think you can turn the economy on and off overnight like a light switch??

He isn't "making the economy good as of late to use it". It takes a LONG TIME for something to take effect to turn the economy. Bush inherited a deficit, implemented his record tax cuts, and look what it's doing today.

Anyone who doesn't believe tax cuts help the economy needs to do some research.

You can't change the economy overnight.

ABrownLamp
07-17-2004, 11:45 PM
iceblizzard, do you REALLY think you can turn the economy on and off overnight like a light switch??

He isn't "making the economy good as of late to use it". It takes a LONG TIME for something to take effect to turn the economy. Bush inherited a deficit, implemented his record tax cuts, and look what it's doing today.

Anyone who doesn't believe tax cuts help the economy needs to do some research.

You can't change the economy overnight.
Trickle down economics is nothing more than a theory. It has never worked (ie Reagan) and is only theoretically supposed to work after a decade. Unfortunately, American society cannot handle a hit like that. Please. Don't even tell me that the tax cut Bush gave the upper class did anything for the economy.
By the way, 90% of the jobs which were created under Bush are government jobs, which mean we as tax payers fund them. The economy right now is nowhere near the Clinton era. That was the greatest economic era in American history. Even better that the post WWII era. The economy is not doing well right now. ONLY BETTER. And even if it does pick up, all the money will go to the war anyway...

Clumpy
07-17-2004, 11:51 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/business/18WAGES.html?ei=5006&en=04a7b36eeace4e32&ex=1090728000&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=


:rolleyes:

Economy isn't doing as well as people think. Wage growth is flat and 75% of the "new jobs" are in the lower paying service sector. My wage growth, which is based on collective bargaining, has not kept up with "my inflation rate". Everyone has their own "inflation rate" based upon their "basket of goods". Prices for luxury items have actually decreased in order to create demand. I cannot afford those items , but some of the food I like has increased a great deal. We won't even talk about energy prices.

Bush must go home, oh wait, he's been there more than in D.C. :shakeno:

ABrownLamp
07-18-2004, 01:17 AM
Clumpy even though you root for a team that, since the Phil Mickelson saga has ended, may debatably be the biggest choke artists in sports history, you are correct in your assessments.

The Bush economy is nothing more than a numbers game. Ask anyone who is looking for a job, if the economy is doing well. Ask anyone who works if their organization is doing better now than they were in the mid 90's.

And ask anyone with a family member overseas if this war is worth fighting for.
I mean, now that we've gotten Hussein out of power, what now? Invade every county in the middle east that poses a threat to the US? Iran, Yemen, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan...the list goes on. This war is so ridiculous I can't even beleive it. And now that we've PROVEN that it was wrong...HOW DO PEOPLE STILL SUPPORT IT'S EXISTENCE? We have accomplished nothing by getting Husein out of office, and BIN LANDEN IS STILL ON THE LOOSE. How is this acceptable to anyone?

I just don't understand why people are so adamnt about Bush doing a good job. We went to war and lost almost 1000 US soldiers for nothing. And Republicans wanted to impeach Clinton? wow...

Clumpy
07-18-2004, 01:25 AM
Clumpy even though you root for a team that, since the Phil Mickelson saga has ended, may debatably be the biggest choke artists in sports history, you are correct in your assessments.

The Bush economy is nothing more than a numbers game. Ask anyone who is looking for a job, if the economy is doing well. Ask anyone who works if their organization is doing better now than they were in the mid 90's.

And ask anyone with a family member overseas if this war is worth fighting for.
I mean, now that we've gotten Hussein out of power, what now? Invade every county in the middle east that poses a threat to the US? Iran, Yemen, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan...the list goes on. This war is so ridiculous I can't even beleive it. And now that we've PROVEN that it was wrong...HOW DO PEOPLE STILL SUPPORT IT'S EXISTENCE? We have accomplished nothing by getting Husein out of office, and BIN LANDEN IS STILL ON THE LOOSE. How is this acceptable to anyone?

I just don't understand why people are so adamnt about Bush doing a good job. We went to war and lost almost 1000 US soldiers for nothing. And Republicans wanted to impeach Clinton? wow...


But I still luv the Bills :D

I have a degree in Economics :foundout:

Business profits have been rising at a record pace. However, that hasn't been transferred to labor :mad:

Kencoboy
07-18-2004, 03:17 AM
Business profits have been rising at a record pace. However, that hasn't been transferred to labor :mad:

Gee, I wonder why. The old BS trickle down supply side economics theory works fine IN THEORY. When a bunch of greedy CEO's whose bonuses and salaries are based on pleasing the stockholders make monetary decisions, those decisions tend not to be in favor of labor. That's where supply side economics becomes a joke, because human beings who get placed into positions of power get corrupted and tend to make decisions that benefit themselves first.

Clumpy
07-18-2004, 03:20 AM
Consumer demand drives the economy-----> Economics 101

ABrownLamp
07-18-2004, 04:06 AM
Trickle down economics is a joke. The ultra rich don't use the money to create jobs, they use it to buy a new jet. The middle and lower class are supposed to sit around and wait 10-12 years before the theorized effects are supposed to take place. And in the meantime, each and every state loses money it would have otherwise had. So state funded institutions like universities, hospitals and schools have absolutely no money. And we wonder why our school systems are so horrible.

I just find it so ridiculous that people accept the fact that the ONLY surplus we've ever had in American history was squandered on tax breaks to the rich and a war that now everyone can now admit was unnecessary. 1000s of American lives will be lost by the end of all this. How are impeachment charges not being brought up?

Not to mention the fact that we have a President in office today that believes in Creationism. That's insane. It's 2004.

DolphinDevil28
07-18-2004, 01:11 PM
Clumpy, what a surprise you get an article from the NY Times.

Please!! That would be like me backing Bush with stats provided by Rush Limbaugh.

Besides, that's the same NY Times that printed Kerry picking Gephardt for Vice President. I wouldn't believe a lick of what they print.

DolphinDevil28
07-18-2004, 01:13 PM
Also Economics 101...

When people have more of their own money they earn instead of big government taking it for wasteful spending, they spend it and the economy goes UP.

iceblizzard69
07-18-2004, 02:26 PM
Clumpy, what a surprise you get an article from the NY Times.

Please!! That would be like me backing Bush with stats provided by Rush Limbaugh.

Besides, that's the same NY Times that printed Kerry picking Gephardt for Vice President. I wouldn't believe a lick of what they print.

Actually, the New York Post was the one that said Kerry was picking Gephardt. I get the Post at my house every day and I read it for the entertainment and sports sections. The Post certainly isn't well thought of for the news it has and is definitely slanted towards the right. Get your facts right.

ABrownLamp
07-18-2004, 02:59 PM
Also Economics 101...

When people have more of their own money they earn instead of big government taking it for wasteful spending, they spend it and the economy goes UP.
EXACTLY!!!

Which is why tax breaks for the richest 1% of America is a joke. One percent of America will not institute a recovery.
By the way, Bush IS wastefully spending your money. Remember that unnecessary war in Iraq. Billions upon billions of dollars are being requested...and now there's undeniable proof that we never should have been there.

ohall
07-18-2004, 03:47 PM
EXACTLY!!!

Which is why tax breaks for the richest 1% of America is a joke. One percent of America will not institute a recovery.
By the way, Bush IS wastefully spending your money. Remember that unnecessary war in Iraq. Billions upon billions of dollars are being requested...and now there's undeniable proof that we never should have been there.

Umm that 1% nearly pays 85% of all the TAXES in this country. Why should ppl who do not pay taxes get a tax break? Honestly what in the world are you talking about? The RICH have always carried the most burden in TAXES and in INVESTMENT of business all around the world. If you start a business why should your employees share equally in the profits? This ain't Russia or Germany bud.

Yeah I do remember that necessary war in Iraq, it will pay huge dividends in the peace it will bring the world. It’s undeniable that anyone who thinks we should not have been there is fighting for an Iraq led by Saddam. Great job man that’s a GREAT side of an argument to be on. Pro Saddam is always a GREAT stance to take.

Oliver...

DolphinDevil28
07-18-2004, 04:47 PM
Precisely, Oliver.

People don't understand that tax cuts go accordingly to how much one gets taxed.

If someone earns 1,000,000 a year and gets taxed 100,000, they get a larger tax break than someone who earns 50,000 a year and gets taxed 7,000.

If it worked the other way around like liberals think it should things would be way out of wack.

ohall
07-18-2004, 05:05 PM
Precisely, Oliver.

People don't understand that tax cuts go accordingly to how much one gets taxed.

If someone earns 1,000,000 a year and gets taxed 100,000, they get a larger tax break than someone who earns 50,000 a year and gets taxed 7,000.

If it worked the other way around like liberals think it should things would be way out of wack.

If it worked the way they wanted it to work we would be another communist or socialist country. People can dance around that, but I have no problems typing the truth. It is stupid IMO for ppl to think the RICH should burden a MUCH larger % of taxes just because they make more $. They deserve to get close to the same tax break as anyone else. They shouldn't be penalized because they are better at making $ than most ppl in this country.

Oliver...

ABrownLamp
07-18-2004, 07:40 PM
What needs to take place is a flat tax. There is evidence that if we take away all those petty tax deductions, like charity donations and tax deferred bonds, that we can maintain the status quo with a 6-7% flat tax rate. I don't know why either party hasn't investigated this taking this option. I would turn Republican if they adopted such a measure...
Even though Republicans support a war in Iraq instead of Afghanistan, where we should be. And they also unfoundedly believe that there will actually ever come a time where there will actually be peace over there. ha.
ohall- just because I don't think we belong over there doesn't mean I support Saddam. Just as I don't support the genocide going on over in Africa (where we also should never be).

Section126
07-19-2004, 11:45 AM
EXACTLY!!!

Which is why tax breaks for the richest 1% of America is a joke. One percent of America will not institute a recovery.
By the way, Bush IS wastefully spending your money. Remember that unnecessary war in Iraq. Billions upon billions of dollars are being requested...and now there's undeniable proof that we never should have been there.

Too many lies to refute......turn off that DNC fax machine please.

Section126
07-19-2004, 11:48 AM
What needs to take place is a flat tax. There is evidence that if we take away all those petty tax deductions, like charity donations and tax deferred bonds, that we can maintain the status quo with a 6-7% flat tax rate. I don't know why either party hasn't investigated this taking this option. I would turn Republican if they adopted such a measure...
Even though Republicans support a war in Iraq instead of Afghanistan, where we should be. And they also unfoundedly believe that there will actually ever come a time where there will actually be peace over there. ha.
ohall- just because I don't think we belong over there doesn't mean I support Saddam. Just as I don't support the genocide going on over in Africa (where we also should never be).


First of all...The republican congress in the early nineties drew up a flat tax rate bill, and Bill Clinton threatened a veto.....The Pubs voted it out of committee and the Democrats killed it on the floor.

BTW, if you are against "Tax Cuts for the Rich." Do you have any idea what a windfall for the rich a "Flat Tax" would be?

As for Afghanistan....we are there....do you ever read the news?

Section126
07-19-2004, 11:52 AM
Trickle down economics is a joke. The ultra rich don't use the money to create jobs, they use it to buy a new jet. The middle and lower class are supposed to sit around and wait 10-12 years before the theorized effects are supposed to take place. And in the meantime, each and every state loses money it would have otherwise had. So state funded institutions like universities, hospitals and schools have absolutely no money. And we wonder why our school systems are so horrible.

I just find it so ridiculous that people accept the fact that the ONLY surplus we've ever had in American history was squandered on tax breaks to the rich and a war that now everyone can now admit was unnecessary. 1000s of American lives will be lost by the end of all this. How are impeachment charges not being brought up?

Not to mention the fact that we have a President in office today that believes in Creationism. That's insane. It's 2004.


You are clearly the most uninformed, hyperbolic, cool aid drunk, poster on this entire board.

Man, do you EVER post anything with ANY truth in it?

PhinPhan1227
07-19-2004, 12:51 PM
Wanna know why all Bush's ads exclusively revolve around trashing Kerry? Because he's got nothing else to run on.

can he run on the economy? jobs? education? nope.

just the war on terror. hey whatever happened to that Osama guy? Is the al Queda regime still around? do we have less of a terrorist threat today because of Bush? no again.

Granted Kerry doesn't have a plan yet, but let's be honest, could it really be any worse than Bush's.


Education? Bush is spending 40% more on it than Clinton did, and test scores are up across the nation. Just out of curiosity, what would you like to see different in the education figures for Bush TO be able to run on education? Damn but ignorance must be bliss.

PhinPhan1227
07-19-2004, 12:54 PM
By the way, 90% of the jobs which were created under Bush are government jobs, which mean we as tax payers fund them..


That's either a statement of utter ignorance or a bold faced lie. The majority of jobs created have been in manifacturing, construction, and services. A TINY proportion of the overall jobs picture have been government jobs. Do tell, are you speaking from ignorance or just trying to lie?

PhinPhan1227
07-19-2004, 12:57 PM
Trickle down economics is a joke. The ultra rich don't use the money to create jobs, they use it to buy a new jet. Not to mention the fact that we have a President in office today that believes in Creationism. That's insane. It's 2004.

#1-Just out of curiosity, how did that Jet come into being? Was it created by Ooompa Loompas? Is it just REMOTELY possible that someones JOB was to build that jet? Hmmm? And someone elses job to build the engines? Maybe 1-2 people worked part time on the avionics package?

#2-I believe in Creationism. Every person of Judeo/Christian/Islamic belief does. I also happen to believe in Evolution. An educated person understands that there is no conflict between the two.

PhinPhan1227
07-19-2004, 01:01 PM
Precisely, Oliver.

People don't understand that tax cuts go accordingly to how much one gets taxed.

If someone earns 1,000,000 a year and gets taxed 100,000, they get a larger tax break than someone who earns 50,000 a year and gets taxed 7,000.

If it worked the other way around like liberals think it should things would be way out of wack.

50k and only taxed 7k? Dude, that mans accountant is going to JAIL!!! Try 10k at BEST, and when you throw in SS, and everything else, it goes up to more like 15k. The Founding Fathers would run back to Englands arms in a HEARTBEAT if they knew what kind of taxes we pay. Of course, the Kerry/Kennedy ideal would be a nice little Socialist state where you get to keep a whopping 15% of your salary so that Big Brother Government can take care of your butt.

Section126
07-19-2004, 08:17 PM
That's either a statement of utter ignorance or a bold faced lie.

I would go with both, but probably more of the latter.

ABrownLamp
07-23-2004, 03:37 PM
First of all...The republican congress in the early nineties drew up a flat tax rate bill, and Bill Clinton threatened a veto.....The Pubs voted it out of committee and the Democrats killed it on the floor.

BTW, if you are against "Tax Cuts for the Rich." Do you have any idea what a windfall for the rich a "Flat Tax" would be?

As for Afghanistan....we are there....do you ever read the news?

I don't really care what Bill Clinton did. It's my opinion that a flat tax would help everyone, not just the rich exclusively.
Unlike a flat tax, tax breaks for the rich take away money from the states, leading to depreciation in already underfunded state run programs. In addition to the fact that the rich never spend the extra money to increase the job market. The "windfall" of a flat tax for the rich is not comparable to the windfall under trickle down economics.

As for Afghanistan...you don't really think that's what I meant do you?

ABrownLamp
07-23-2004, 03:40 PM
That's either a statement of utter ignorance or a bold faced lie. The majority of jobs created have been in manifacturing, construction, and services. A TINY proportion of the overall jobs picture have been government jobs. Do tell, are you speaking from ignorance or just trying to lie?

I would say my statement was an exaggeration rather than a lie. What is a lie is that the manufacturing sector has grown. Manufacturing jobs are the first ones to go in a recession and the last ones to come back when it picks up.

ABrownLamp
07-23-2004, 03:42 PM
#1-Just out of curiosity, how did that Jet come into being? Was it created by Ooompa Loompas? Is it just REMOTELY possible that someones JOB was to build that jet? Hmmm? And someone elses job to build the engines? Maybe 1-2 people worked part time on the avionics package?

#2-I believe in Creationism. Every person of Judeo/Christian/Islamic belief does. I also happen to believe in Evolution. An educated person understands that there is no conflict between the two.
Let me rephrase that...The rich save their money and keep it for themselves. The point is that the money doesn't go towards what it is intended to go toward which defeats the whole purpose of a trickle down economy.

The philosophies behind creationism and science are polar opposites. Lets not get into semantics.

ABrownLamp
07-23-2004, 03:45 PM
Education? Bush is spending 40% more on it than Clinton did, and test scores are up across the nation. Just out of curiosity, what would you like to see different in the education figures for Bush TO be able to run on education? Damn but ignorance must be bliss.

Nationwide scores have not gone up. Show me any information saying otherwise. What difference does it make if he's spending more money if the money isn't improving the situation...i.e., Bush cannot run on education.

DolFan31
07-23-2004, 03:47 PM
I would say my statement was an exaggeration rather than a lie. What is a lie is that the manufacturing sector has grown. Manufacturing jobs are the first ones to go in a recession and the last ones to come back when it picks up.

Didnt anyone forget that McJobs were added to the Manufacturing sector during this administration? McDonalds and other fast food companies hire ALL THE TIME, so of course its a growing sector, when you add companies that hire all the time of course the numbers are going to look better.

Besides, everyone knows that wars help the economy. Which is why I can just as easily say this economic "boom" was just as artificial as the 90's economic boom.

Bling
07-23-2004, 04:53 PM
Clumpy even though you root for a team that, since the Phil Mickelson saga has ended, may debatably be the biggest choke artists in sports history, you are correct in your assessments.

LMAO that was as lame as it gets.

ABrownLamp
07-23-2004, 05:07 PM
LMAO that was as lame as it gets.
:mad:

PhinPhan1227
07-23-2004, 05:41 PM
Didnt anyone forget that McJobs were added to the Manufacturing sector during this administration? McDonalds and other fast food companies hire ALL THE TIME, so of course its a growing sector, when you add companies that hire all the time of course the numbers are going to look better.

Besides, everyone knows that wars help the economy. Which is why I can just as easily say this economic "boom" was just as artificial as the 90's economic boom.


Um...clue...McDonalds, despite the fact that they "make" hamburgers, is NOT part of the manufacturing sector. Please don't make statements THAT silly. When reports say that jobs are added to manufacturing, it means companies that actually MANUFACTURE something...ie, factory jobs. Also, per hour wages are up, demonstrating that these are not "McJobs".

PhinPhan1227
07-23-2004, 05:46 PM
Nationwide scores have not gone up. Show me any information saying otherwise. What difference does it make if he's spending more money if the money isn't improving the situation...i.e., Bush cannot run on education.

Sigh, why don't people check facts? MAth scores ARE up. Reading held steady. Jesus.

"Major Finding
Average mathematics scores were higher in 2003 than in all the previous assessment years at both grades 4 and 8. "

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/mathematics/results2003/natscalescore.asp

Reading held steady, which, considering the massive influx of immigrants who don't speak english, is still pretty good.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/reading/results2003/natscalescore.asp

ohall
07-23-2004, 09:00 PM
EXACTLY!!!

Which is why tax breaks for the richest 1% of America is a joke. One percent of America will not institute a recovery.
By the way, Bush IS wastefully spending your money. Remember that unnecessary war in Iraq. Billions upon billions of dollars are being requested...and now there's undeniable proof that we never should have been there.

They pay the majority of the TAXES to begin with, they deserve the same breaks. Also if they have more $ to spend the better the economy is. I'm not sure why so many of you miss this FACT!

Don't be jealous because they are better at earning money than you are.

Oliver...

ABrownLamp
07-24-2004, 12:49 AM
They pay the majority of the TAXES to begin with, they deserve the same breaks. Also if they have more $ to spend the better the economy is. I'm not sure why so many of you miss this FACT!

Don't be jealous because they are better at earning money than you are.

Oliver...
Fine. That's why I support a flat tax. Everyone gets more money to spend.

I'm a grad student, I don't even pay taxes. I could give a crap about what rich people earn right now.

ohall
07-24-2004, 12:37 PM
Fine. That's why I support a flat tax. Everyone gets more money to spend.

I'm a grad student, I don't even pay taxes. I could give a crap about what rich people earn right now.

Well when your rich maybe you'll care? :D

Oliver...

Section126
07-24-2004, 06:20 PM
Fine. That's why I support a flat tax. Everyone gets more money to spend.

I'm a grad student, I don't even pay taxes. I could give a crap about what rich people earn right now.

WRONG!!!!!

A flat tax is a BONANZA for the rich and a burden for the poor......do you even read what you write?