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MikeO
08-15-2004, 11:44 PM
The one thing that I don't like that Bush and his team are doing is taking pot shots at Kerry and his time in Vietnam.

Im one of those "undecided" voters. But anytime I hear Bush and his team or one of these groups that claim are working independant of Bush "wink wink, nod, nod" start bashing Kerry and his time in vietnam, it really turns me off to Bush.

For one, Kerry was a rich white kid who didn't have to go! But he signed up and went. That counts for something.

And then saying he shot someone in the back or shot kids. Look, its WAR! You don't wait for someone to turn around to shoot them in the front. Or if a kid has a gun pointed at you then you don't not shoot at him because of his age!

Kerry went to Vietnam. Case closed. What happened over there or what he did or said when he came back is a non-issue.

Im just one man in a state that is already locked up for Kerry. So, who I vote for really doesn't matter. But if I don't end up voting for Bush, it might be because of this reason alone. I know Kerry and his group are no saints. But on this one issue, Bush and his bunch are way way out of line!

PhinPhan1227
08-15-2004, 11:50 PM
The one thing that I don't like that Bush and his team are doing is taking pot shots at Kerry and his time in Vietnam.

Im one of those "undecided" voters. But anytime I hear Bush and his team or one of these groups that claim are working independant of Bush "wink wink, nod, nod" start bashing Kerry and his time in vietnam, it really turns me off to Bush.

For one, Kerry was a rich white kid who didn't have to go! But he signed up and went. That counts for something.

And then saying he shot someone in the back or shot kids. Look, its WAR! You don't wait for someone to turn around to shoot them in the front. Or if a kid has a gun pointed at you then you don't not shoot at him because of his age!

Kerry went to Vietnam. Case closed. What happened over there or what he did or said when he came back is a non-issue.

Im just one man in a state that is already locked up for Kerry. So, who I vote for really doesn't matter. But if I don't end up voting for Bush, it might be because of this reason alone. I know Kerry and his group are no saints. But on this one issue, Bush and his bunch are way way out of line!


I can agree that what he did in Vietnam is possibly a non-issue. What he did when he came back however is a HUGE issue. He betrayed his fellow soldiers and is almost single handedly responsible for those soldiers bearing the label "baby killer" for all the years after they came home. That's a HUGE issue.

MikeO
08-15-2004, 11:54 PM
I can agree that what he did in Vietnam is possibly a non-issue. What he did when he came back however is a HUGE issue. He betrayed his fellow soldiers and is almost single handedly responsible for those soldiers bearing the label "baby killer" for all the years after they came home. That's a HUGE issue.
That is an awful lot of blame to throw at one mans feet. I don't know. He still went when he didn't have to. Which in my book means he earned the right to speak his mind when he came back.

PhinPhan1227
08-16-2004, 12:03 AM
That is an awful lot of blame to throw at one mans feet. I don't know. He still went when he didn't have to. Which in my book means he earned the right to speak his mind when he came back.


Yes...he was entitled to speak HIS mind. If he had come back and said, "Vietnam is a mistake, Vietnam is unjust, I did horrible things there", I'd respect him for speaking his mind. Instead he goes in front of Congress and paints EVERYONE with that brush. John Kerry was on a boat on a river. He wasn't on patrols with the Marines or Army. He wasn't in a fighter or bomber flying missions. He had NO right to speak for THOSE men. He had NO right to tell America that THOSE men were killing women and children. A lot of blame at one mans feet? Show me another man on national television telling America that every soldier coming back from Vietnam killed women and children. Jane Fonda did HORRIBLE things during that war. But she was an outsider. John Kerry did those same things to his brother soldiers.

caneproud117
08-16-2004, 06:55 AM
I can agree that what he did in Vietnam is possibly a non-issue. What he did when he came back however is a HUGE issue. He betrayed his fellow soldiers and is almost single handedly responsible for those soldiers bearing the label "baby killer" for all the years after they came home. That's a HUGE issue.
That's wrong, there was an enourmous amount of protestors long before Kerry that already slapped that label on the American Soldiers. He was in a position to speak out against the war and he did, along side of millions of Americans that felt the same way. To say he almost single handedly caused that label is just trying to lay blame on him for something he said in his speech but it was something that was said well before he made that speech.

t2thejz
08-16-2004, 07:53 AM
That's wrong, there was an enourmous amount of protestors long before Kerry that already slapped that label on the American Soldiers. He was in a position to speak out against the war and he did, along side of millions of Americans that felt the same way. To say he almost single handedly caused that label is just trying to lay blame on him for something he said in his speech but it was something that was said well before he made that speech.
It doesnt make it any better what he did. Just because a million other hippies did it before him

xiidaen
08-16-2004, 07:56 AM
I can't believe there isn't more oversight from the press on the claims of both sides...the whole swift boats veterans ad (as a single example) -- the press needs to do a better job of calling out both parties and the PACs when they start throwing BS around.

caneproud117
08-16-2004, 08:13 AM
I can't believe there isn't more oversight from the press on the claims of both sides...the whole swift boats veterans ad (as a single example) -- the press needs to do a better job of calling out both parties and the PACs when they start throwing BS around.
I see the press as more a part of the problem and less a part of the solution. Not only do they not challenge the credibility of claims, but they are usually one sided and bias from both candidates. I just don't see why the press would even challenge anything they recieve when they get excellent ratings for controversy. If they didn't have BS then there would be little 'real' news.

PhinPhan1227
08-16-2004, 09:57 AM
That's wrong, there was an enourmous amount of protestors long before Kerry that already slapped that label on the American Soldiers. He was in a position to speak out against the war and he did, along side of millions of Americans that felt the same way. To say he almost single handedly caused that label is just trying to lay blame on him for something he said in his speech but it was something that was said well before he made that speech.


HUGE difference. Some snot nosed 18 year old protesting is a TOTALLY different dynamic than a "decorated war hero" claiming that he and his fellow soldiers were killing babies and women. Before Kerry it was JUST the fringe protestors who were making those accusations. After his testimony these men went home to families that made the same accusations. Not in the streets with signs...tey made them where it truly hurt...in the living room. Seriously, read some of the stories Vietnam Vets have told about what happenned after Kerry's testimony.

P4E
08-16-2004, 04:58 PM
That Kerry would even THINK of submitting for Purple Hearts for his bull****, exaggerated, intentionally-misrepresented, connived, game-the-system-so-I-can-go-home-quick-and-pass-myself-off-as-a-hero "injuries" is AN OUTRAGEOUS INSULT TO EVERY MAN WHO EVER SERVED THIS COUNTRY WITH HONOR AND INTEGRITY, especially those who actually EARNED a Purple Heart.

Kerry's FRAUDULENT service record speaks to his character, and his character is made up of deceit, self-aggrandizement and chameleon-like betrayal.

Support the guy if you want. Vote for him if you choose. But don't even TRY to kid yourself or anyone else about the kind of man you're voting for.

caneproud117
08-16-2004, 05:20 PM
That Kerry would even THINK of submitting for Purple Hearts for his bull****, exaggerated, intentionally-misrepresented, connived, game-the-system-so-I-can-go-home-quick-and-pass-myself-off-as-a-hero "injuries" is AN OUTRAGEOUS INSULT TO EVERY MAN WHO EVER SERVED THIS COUNTRY WITH HONOR AND INTEGRITY, especially those who actually EARNED a Purple Heart.

Kerry's FRAUDULENT service record speaks to his character, and his character is made up of deceit, self-aggrandizement and chameleon-like betrayal.

Support the guy if you want. Vote for him if you choose. But don't even TRY to kid yourself or anyone else about the kind of man you're voting for.
I'm not kidding myself, nor anyone I convince to vote for the guy. Problem is back 30 years ago they were earned, he was recommended for these medals, don't YOU try to condemn the man for putting his neck out on the line to serve this country and pass it off as partisan. Our military awarded him with these medals if you don't think they're warrented that's fine with me, but to accuse him of fraud without evidence is completely wrong. There's no way you can prove that he wasn't injured. My Grandfather was in WWII and got his arm almost taken off by a mine, he now has a plate in his arm. His injuries were most definately worse, but were they less warrented than Kerry's, I think not.

ABrownLamp
08-16-2004, 05:59 PM
That Kerry would even THINK of submitting for Purple Hearts for his bull****, exaggerated, intentionally-misrepresented, connived, game-the-system-so-I-can-go-home-quick-and-pass-myself-off-as-a-hero "injuries" is AN OUTRAGEOUS INSULT TO EVERY MAN WHO EVER SERVED THIS COUNTRY WITH HONOR AND INTEGRITY, especially those who actually EARNED a Purple Heart.

Kerry's FRAUDULENT service record speaks to his character, and his character is made up of deceit, self-aggrandizement and chameleon-like betrayal.

Support the guy if you want. Vote for him if you choose. But don't even TRY to kid yourself or anyone else about the kind of man you're voting for.
I can't take this kind of Kerry bashing. I just can't. If you want to criticize Kerry for exaggerating his wounds...whatever, it's debatable. If you want to ignore the guy he saved during the war...go ahead. If you want to beleive some of the conflicting testimony of people he served with that a) weren't on the boat with him, and b) have a political agenda against him...fine. If you want to attribute his volunteering for the war a political tool...go ahead. But please... DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME THAT THE REAL PATRIOT WAS IN ALABAMA DURING VIETNEM!!!!!

Section126
08-16-2004, 06:15 PM
psssst......we are talking about Kerry and his phoney service record.........not Bush...can you get that?

ohall
08-16-2004, 06:22 PM
I can't take this kind of Kerry bashing. I just can't. If you want to criticize Kerry for exaggerating his wounds...whatever, it's debatable. If you want to ignore the guy he saved during the war...go ahead. If you want to beleive some of the conflicting testimony of people he served with that a) weren't on the boat with him, and b) have a political agenda against him...fine. If you want to attribute his volunteering for the war a political tool...go ahead. But please... DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME THAT THE REAL PATRIOT WAS IN ALABAMA DURING VIETNEM!!!!!

Where has anyone said Bush #43 was a patriot during the Vietnam War? He did however serve his country though, there's no reason to minimize that. At least that’s what it seems you are trying to do.

It seems to me these ppl questioning Kerry have every right to and as a DEM I would think you would put free speech over wanting this not be made public just because it is questioning a DEM candidate. Everyone has a right to defend themselves if they feel they have been wronged, even if they feel the have been wronged by a Presidential candidate. Kerry never should have used their image in his campaign pushing his Vietnam War service. When he did that he left his himself wide open for any rebuttals from the ppl in that photo.

Oliver...

caneproud117
08-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Where has anyone said Bush #43 was a patriot during the Vietnam War? He did however serve his country though, there's no reason to minimize that. At least that’s what it seems you are trying to do.

It seems to me these ppl questioning Kerry have every right to and as a DEM I would think you would put free speech over wanting this not be made public just because it is questioning a DEM candidate. Everyone has a right to defend themselves if they feel they have been wronged, even if they feel the have been wronged by a Presidential candidate. Kerry never should have used their image in his campaign pushing his Vietnam War service. When he did that he left his himself wide open for any rebuttals from the ppl in that photo.

Oliver...

I wasn't questioning freedom of speech, but to accuse someone of something without basis in fact is in my estimation, unexcusable. You can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, but to state it as fact to mislead or whatever was intended by it, is another story altogether. I will denounce any ad by both candidates stating something that is not factual in it's entirety. These half truths that are being thrown around by both candidates are why I hate politicians.

PhinPhan1227
08-16-2004, 07:44 PM
I can't take this kind of Kerry bashing. I just can't. If you want to criticize Kerry for exaggerating his wounds...whatever, it's debatable. If you want to ignore the guy he saved during the war...go ahead. If you want to beleive some of the conflicting testimony of people he served with that a) weren't on the boat with him, and b) have a political agenda against him...fine. If you want to attribute his volunteering for the war a political tool...go ahead. But please... DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME THAT THE REAL PATRIOT WAS IN ALABAMA DURING VIETNEM!!!!!


Once again I ask the question...when you do a Google search to see what the OTHER Vietnam Veterans think of Kerry and Bush, how many websites against Kerry do you find? Now, how many against Bush? Vietnam Vets may castigate Bush for avoiding service, but the DESPISE Kerry for betraying them.

ohall
08-16-2004, 07:51 PM
I wasn't questioning freedom of speech, but to accuse someone of something without basis in fact is in my estimation, unexcusable. You can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, but to state it as fact to mislead or whatever was intended by it, is another story altogether. I will denounce any ad by both candidates stating something that is not factual in it's entirety. These half truths that are being thrown around by both candidates are why I hate politicians.

Tell me what research has been done to establish any of what is being asserted upon Kerry is baseless?

Very lil has been done to investigate any of the accusations. I do know this, where there's smoke there is fire.

Oliver...

caneproud117
08-16-2004, 08:03 PM
Tell me what research has been done to establish any of what is being asserted upon Kerry is baseless?

Very lil has been done to investigate any of the accusations. I do know this, where there's smoke there is fire.

Oliver...

Exactly my point, there's no research to base claims of fraud.

ohall
08-16-2004, 08:05 PM
Exactly my point, there's no research to base claims of fraud.

One problem, no research has been done. If we were to use this logic all the past offenses in the world would never come to justice.

Come on man. You wouldn't be concerned if a canidate was lying about these types of things to boost his political career?

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-16-2004, 08:17 PM
Exactly my point, there's no research to base claims of fraud.


Well..almost 200 men say that elements of Kerry's story are bogus. How many back up Kerry's story? Bear in mind that almost all of those 200 men were in the same unit as Kerry, and a large percentage were within 50 feet when these events took place. In a court of law guess which one wins?

caneproud117
08-16-2004, 09:33 PM
Well..almost 200 men say that elements of Kerry's story are bogus. How many back up Kerry's story? Bear in mind that almost all of those 200 men were in the same unit as Kerry, and a large percentage were within 50 feet when these events took place. In a court of law guess which one wins?
The men that were on his boat would win, along with Rassman who was the one in danger. I'm sorry but if the man who was rescued, who's a Republican, says that he saved his life that would blow away anything they could throw against him in court.

PhinPhan1227
08-16-2004, 10:38 PM
The men that were on his boat would win, along with Rassman who was the one in danger. I'm sorry but if the man who was rescued, who's a Republican, says that he saved his life that would blow away anything they could throw against him in court.

Firstly, those 8 men weren't on the boat at that time. Those 8 men served with him at various times during his months in Vietnam. And when the issue is whether there were bullets flying during an engagement, the guy in the boat 50 feet away has just as good a say as the guy in Kerry's boat. In an engagement, BOTH boats would have been under fire, and yet none of the other boats say that any shots were fired. We aren't talking about testimony concerning things which happened ON the boat, were talking about what happened AROUND the boat.

Section126
08-16-2004, 11:35 PM
Firstly, those 8 men weren't on the boat at that time. Those 8 men served with him at various times during his months in Vietnam. And when the issue is whether there were bullets flying during an engagement, the guy in the boat 50 feet away has just as good a say as the guy in Kerry's boat. In an engagement, BOTH boats would have been under fire, and yet none of the other boats say that any shots were fired. We aren't talking about testimony concerning things which happened ON the boat, were talking about what happened AROUND the boat.


John Kerry was in fact a COWARD that day....He inexplicably turned and burned after the mines went off....he then came back and rescued Rassman while the other boats rescued 8 others......THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE SHOT FIRED at them......(Not one bullet hole in any of the boats) Kerry's Boat had damage documented by JOHN KERRY that was from a week earlier....he then used all those lies to get his bronze star.

BTW, PhinPhan...it is not "close" to 200....it is 265.

Kerry has ONE officer out of 20 supporting him and 8 enlisted out of 220 from the unit.

Section126
08-16-2004, 11:38 PM
Well..almost 200 men say that elements of Kerry's story are bogus. How many back up Kerry's story? Bear in mind that almost all of those 200 men were in the same unit as Kerry, and a large percentage were within 50 feet when these events took place. In a court of law guess which one wins?


Till this day...Kerry has only one guy backing up his story...Rassman...and in JOHN KERRY'S Book "Tour of Duty", Kerry contradicts his own citation for the bronze star.

Out of 60 men on that scene that day......Kerry has produced only ONE man to back him up.....Rassman.....

How come nobody mentions the boat that was right next to John Kerry's that rescued 8 men...while Kerry rescued ONE?

DeDolfan
08-17-2004, 09:29 AM
I can agree that what he did in Vietnam is possibly a non-issue. What he did when he came back however is a HUGE issue. He betrayed his fellow soldiers and is almost single handedly responsible for those soldiers bearing the label "baby killer" for all the years after they came home. That's a HUGE issue.

IMO, what he did when he came home is an issue ONLY because some folks make it out to be. Bottom line is that kerry went, served, came back with his own changed opinion of the war and voiced his opinion of such. i say that he at least EARNED the right to protest and not like the chicken schidt draft dodgers only trying to save there own hides from having to serve!! iMO, that's a huge difference. whether or not you agree with kerry's opinions of the time is irrelevant and a horse of another color.

PhinPhan1227
08-17-2004, 12:57 PM
IMO, what he did when he came home is an issue ONLY because some folks make it out to be. Bottom line is that kerry went, served, came back with his own changed opinion of the war and voiced his opinion of such. i say that he at least EARNED the right to protest and not like the chicken schidt draft dodgers only trying to save there own hides from having to serve!! iMO, that's a huge difference. whether or not you agree with kerry's opinions of the time is irrelevant and a horse of another color.


"what he did when he came home is an issue ONLY because some folks make it out to be. "

The people who made it an issue were the people who were fighting and dying in Vietnam. The people who made it an issue were the people who didn't come home after 4 months(unless they did so missing a limb), it was the people who were there for 1, 2, sometimes 5-6 years. The people who made it an issue weren't the people who were surrounded by fellow arch liberals. They were the people who went home to a lower class home in Detroit and had to deal with their mother asking them why they shot children. The people who made it an issue were the people who earned the RIGHT to make it an issue. They were the people who were WRONGED by his statements. They were the people who were SLANDERED by his statements. SOME folks? Why not complete the day in style and comment that the Hollocaust was an issue because SOME people made it an issue?

ABrownLamp
08-17-2004, 05:09 PM
psssst......we are talking about Kerry and his phoney service record.........not Bush...can you get that?
Didn't mean to confuse you. One topic leads to another. That's how conversations work. By criticizing Kerry and calling him a coward during the war, common sense dictates that you would be voting for someone in stark contrast to that. But in fact, you are voting for something even worse.

ohall
08-17-2004, 05:12 PM
Didn't mean to confuse you. One topic leads to another. That's how conversations work. By criticizing Kerry and calling him a coward during the war, common sense dictates that you would be voting for someone in stark contrast to that. But in fact, you are voting for something even worse.

Sorry I don't see how serving your country in the National Guard is someone who is even worse. If Kerry is lying about his service in Vietnam I would think you would be just as concerned as any REP out there. You're talking about a man that would be the leader of the free world.

Oliver...

ABrownLamp
08-17-2004, 05:14 PM
Where has anyone said Bush #43 was a patriot during the Vietnam War? He did however serve his country though, there's no reason to minimize that. At least that’s what it seems you are trying to do.

It seems to me these ppl questioning Kerry have every right to and as a DEM I would think you would put free speech over wanting this not be made public just because it is questioning a DEM candidate. Everyone has a right to defend themselves if they feel they have been wronged, even if they feel the have been wronged by a Presidential candidate. Kerry never should have used their image in his campaign pushing his Vietnam War service. When he did that he left his himself wide open for any rebuttals from the ppl in that photo.

Oliver...
GWB used his connections to avoid the war. Kerry volunteered, regardless of what your GUESS about his reasons for doing so. He put himself on a battlefield voluntarily. The people questioning Kerry do have every right to speak out. I don't know why you continue to bring up a false issue of DEM pressure to suppress their speech. We just think it's disgusting and are asking GWB to acknowledge that publicly.

ABrownLamp
08-17-2004, 05:17 PM
Once again I ask the question...when you do a Google search to see what the OTHER Vietnam Veterans think of Kerry and Bush, how many websites against Kerry do you find? Now, how many against Bush? Vietnam Vets may castigate Bush for avoiding service, but the DESPISE Kerry for betraying them.
I think they would castigate him regardless. They pulled this same crap on McCain. You have to admit that there is a political agenda behind this. They aren't just criticizing his record, but his political ideology as well. Some members of this campaign have already recanted their statements. Wonder what caused them to make those statements in the first place?

ABrownLamp
08-17-2004, 05:19 PM
Sorry I don't see how serving your country in the National Guard is someone who is even worse. If Kerry is lying about his service in Vietnam I would think you would be just as concerned as any REP out there. You're talking about a man that would be the leader of the free world.

Oliver...
Kerry isn't lying. You know the National Guard is not the same then as it is today. There was a reason he chose that branch.

ohall
08-17-2004, 06:39 PM
Kerry isn't lying. You know the National Guard is not the same then as it is today. There was a reason he chose that branch.

Incorrect, NG units were also activated for the Vietnam War. He had no idea which wing would be active or not, no one did. I'd love for one of you to prove 1st his father pulled strings to get him into the NG, and then his father or he knew which units would go active or not. If you can't why even go there? At that point it's nothing more than fiction.

I don't know if Kerry is lying or not, no one has really looked into this. The LIBERAL press is giving him a huge pass on this. While they drug the President thru the mud for 8 weeks about the whole NG thing.

The press is showing the world their azz on this one.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-17-2004, 07:31 PM
I think they would castigate him regardless. They pulled this same crap on McCain. You have to admit that there is a political agenda behind this. They aren't just criticizing his record, but his political ideology as well. Some members of this campaign have already recanted their statements. Wonder what caused them to make those statements in the first place?



ONE man recanted A statement. That was his commanding officer, and the statement was about what he would have done, NOT about what actually took place. He was NOT one of the eye witnesses.

Bling
08-17-2004, 07:39 PM
So knowing John Kerry for the rich, greedy man he is today, you sure he wouldn't go to the National Guard if he could?

Section126
08-17-2004, 08:14 PM
ONE man recanted A statement. That was his commanding officer, and the statement was about what he would have done, NOT about what actually took place. He was NOT one of the eye witnesses.


The one guy that recanted also said that he would still stand by his later position that Kerry essentially lied to recieve his bronze star.

DeDolfan
08-18-2004, 08:25 AM
"what he did when he came home is an issue ONLY because some folks make it out to be. "

The people who made it an issue were the people who were fighting and dying in Vietnam. The people who made it an issue were the people who didn't come home after 4 months(unless they did so missing a limb), it was the people who were there for 1, 2, sometimes 5-6 years. The people who made it an issue weren't the people who were surrounded by fellow arch liberals. They were the people who went home to a lower class home in Detroit and had to deal with their mother asking them why they shot children. The people who made it an issue were the people who earned the RIGHT to make it an issue. They were the people who were WRONGED by his statements. They were the people who were SLANDERED by his statements. SOME folks? Why not complete the day in style and comment that the Hollocaust was an issue because SOME people made it an issue?

You make it seem like the ppl you describe were the only ones against him.
Hmmmm.......i don't think so!!

PhinPhan1227
08-18-2004, 10:17 AM
You make it seem like the ppl you describe were the only ones against him.
Hmmmm.......i don't think so!!


Only since he became a candidate for President. Many of the Vietnam Vet, and POW/MIA groups have been railing against Kerry since the Winter Soldier testimony.

VJ1252
08-20-2004, 04:14 AM
I cant beleive people are believing this sh*#. The Bush campaing pulled the same stuff when McCain was battling bush for the republican nomination. The bush campaign essentially said that McCain may have given away info during his time as a POW. The fact is none of us can really know what happened that day. All we have is testimony compiled by biased ad-makers. Here is what we do know. Kerry enrolled for Vietnam against the wishes of his family because he wanted to serve his country. I guess when he enrolled he had a master plan too get a medal and then use it in politics.:rolleyes:

ohall
08-20-2004, 04:33 AM
I cant beleive people are believing this sh*#. The Bush campaing pulled the same stuff when McCain was battling bush for the republican nomination. The bush campaign essentially said that McCain may have given away info during his time as a POW. The fact is none of us can really know what happened that day. All we have is testimony compiled by biased ad-makers. Here is what we do know. Kerry enrolled for Vietnam against the wishes of his family because he wanted to serve his country. I guess when he enrolled he had a master plan too get a medal and then use it in politics.:rolleyes:

Go on prove Bush has anything to do with the swiftboat thing, go on!

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-20-2004, 05:42 AM
I cant beleive people are believing this sh*#. The Bush campaing pulled the same stuff when McCain was battling bush for the republican nomination. The bush campaign essentially said that McCain may have given away info during his time as a POW. The fact is none of us can really know what happened that day. All we have is testimony compiled by biased ad-makers. Here is what we do know. Kerry enrolled for Vietnam against the wishes of his family because he wanted to serve his country. I guess when he enrolled he had a master plan too get a medal and then use it in politics.:rolleyes:

Pretty much. The man idealized Kennedy, and either got advice directly from Papa Joe, or just followed the model.

Section126
08-20-2004, 10:07 AM
Pretty much. The man idealized Kennedy, and either got advice directly from Papa Joe, or just followed the model.


You are right..Kerry had a master plan....But it is not fair to compare Kerry to JFK...JFK was the genuine article.....Did you know that the WSJ did a search of the 1960 Presidential campaign and found that JFK NEVER mentioned his service? (PT109)

HUGE MASSIVE GARGANTUAN DIFFERENCE.

VJ1252
08-20-2004, 03:42 PM
Go on prove Bush has anything to do with the swiftboat thing, go on!

Oliver...
ok here ya go http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/:D

PhinPhan1227
08-20-2004, 03:59 PM
ok here ya go http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/:D

Which is closer...you have conducted business before with some of these people....or your campaign manager now works for them? Which is closer...the same guy that contributed to you, also wants to contribute to other people who oppose your opponent...or one of the top men in a 527 coming to work for you? Bottom line, while I'm sure Bush COULD influence SwiftBoats, Kerry has violeted McCain/Feingold with his dealings with MoveOn and the other 527's. Any attack on Bush by Kerry is a huge hypocracy.

ohall
08-20-2004, 04:19 PM
ok here ya go http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/:D

That's what you consider proof?

WEAK.

Oliver...

ABrownLamp
08-20-2004, 05:12 PM
Incorrect, NG units were also activated for the Vietnam War. He had no idea which wing would be active or not, no one did. I'd love for one of you to prove 1st his father pulled strings to get him into the NG, and then his father or he knew which units would go active or not. If you can't why even go there? At that point it's nothing more than fiction.

I don't know if Kerry is lying or not, no one has really looked into this. The LIBERAL press is giving him a huge pass on this. While they drug the President thru the mud for 8 weeks about the whole NG thing.

The press is showing the world their azz on this one.

Oliver...

OMG. What is with you and closing your eyes to common sense. How can you say his father didn't pull strings for him. Give me a break.
Yes of course the NG was activated during the war, but they were they safest branch. Kerry spent 4 months in Vietnam...ON HIS SECOND TOUR OF DUTY. Bush was in AL.

ABrownLamp
08-20-2004, 05:13 PM
ONE man recanted A statement. That was his commanding officer, and the statement was about what he would have done, NOT about what actually took place. He was NOT one of the eye witnesses.

They are still pissed about what he did when he came back from the war. Also, everyone on his swift boat supports Kerry.

ohall
08-20-2004, 05:18 PM
OMG. What is with you and closing your eyes to common sense. How can you say his father didn't pull strings for him. Give me a break.
Yes of course the NG was activated during the war, but they were they safest branch. Kerry spent 4 months in Vietnam...ON HIS SECOND TOUR OF DUTY. Bush was in AL.

That's your common sense. My common sense tells me those universities have no need to sell their degrees. If this was to take place this would detract from their university if this was ever to become public. They make millions a year from their fees, which they receive from mainly very rich ppl who attend those universities.

Yes NG is much safer than soldiers that were in Vietnam, but the fact is Bush #43 could have been called up at any time. Yeah I know where Bush and Kerry were, so what? The fact is Bush served his country with honor. That is why he was honorably discharged from the NG. Run away from reality all you want to. It's not like I really care.

Oliver...

ABrownLamp
08-20-2004, 05:26 PM
That's your common sense. My common sense tells me those universities have no need to sell their degrees. If this was to take place this would detract from their university if this was ever to become public. They make millions a year from their fees, which they receive from mainly very rich ppl who attend those universities.

Yes NG is much safer than soldiers that were in Vietnam, but the fact is Bush #43 could have been called up at any time. Yeah I know where Bush and Kerry were, so what? The fact is Bush served his country with honor. That is why he was honorably discharged from the NG. Run away from reality all you want to. It's not like I really care.

Oliver...

What are you talking about? Are we back on the university thing...
Dude...OMG...listen, man...He got into the Harvard Business school, the best MBA program in the US...WITH C's!!!!!!!! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT??? As far as not needeing money goes...everyone wants more money. Do you think they would turn their backs on it? It's called Capitalism. Not that I even necessarily think that alone is what Bush Sr. brought to the table. The Olson twins got into NYU man. Power and fame speak loudly.

GWB would never have been called up. You know that. There isn't one person who can attest to his attendance in the guards. He din't serve "honorably" he didn't even serve.

ohall
08-20-2004, 05:34 PM
What are you talking about? Are we back on the university thing...
Dude...OMG...listen, man...He got into the Harvard Business school, the best MBA program in the US...WITH C's!!!!!!!! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT??? As far as not needeing money goes...everyone wants more money. Do you think they would turn their backs on it? It's called Capitalism. Not that I even necessarily think that alone is what Bush Sr. brought to the table. The Olson twins got into NYU man. Power and fame speak loudly.

GWB would never have been called up. You know that. There isn't one person who can attest to his attendance in the guards. He din't serve "honorably" he didn't even serve.

LoL you brought us back here not me! C's are a passing grade the last time I checked, even Harvard. LoL

I say it again, please prove that any strings were pulled for Jr for school or for the NG. If not save it. You are starting to sound like Al "gone crazier" Gore.

Oliver...

ABrownLamp
08-20-2004, 05:49 PM
LoL you brought us back here not me! C's are a passing grade the last time I checked, even Harvard. LoL

I say it again, please prove that any strings were pulled for Jr for school or for the NG. If not save it. You are starting to sound like Al "gone crazier" Gore.

Oliver...

And last I checked C's won't get you into the best program in the country. Not even a second look.

Can't prove it. I can't prove that you are not an alien from the planet Gelgamek either. I'll just use common sense.

PhinPhan1227
08-20-2004, 06:29 PM
GWB would never have been called up. You know that. There isn't one person who can attest to his attendance in the guards. He din't serve "honorably" he didn't even serve.


Contrast that...if Kerry hadn't joined, he certainly could have been drafted.

ohall
08-20-2004, 07:18 PM
And last I checked C's won't get you into the best program in the country. Not even a second look.

Can't prove it. I can't prove that you are not an alien from the planet Gelgamek either. I'll just use common sense.

I don't know if the thing about the C's is a true statement. Especially back in the late 60's. I wasn't around then so I know I wouldn't be comfortable making a similar statement like you just did.

Making the statements about Bush #43 and how you feel strings were pulled for him by his daddy is nothing like trying to prove if I am an alien or not. I could easily prove that I am a human being born on this earth currently living on this planet. it's called a birth certificate, a passport etc etc.

This keeps getting more and more weird.

Oliver...

VJ1252
08-20-2004, 07:51 PM
That's what you consider proof?

WEAK.

Oliver...
oh yea here is a quote from the New York Times Article.
"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year. "

sorry no link but you have to register to get the article. it probably wouldnt matter anyways because you would just dismiss it as weak and from a liberal newspaper.

ohall
08-20-2004, 07:57 PM
oh yea here is a quote from the New York Times Article.
"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year. "

sorry no link but you have to register to get the article. it probably wouldnt matter anyways because you would just dismiss it as weak and from a liberal newspaper.

I believe you about the article's source, but this is not proof. Those are just loose ties to ppl who worked mainly for Bush #41's adminstration not Bush #43's administration. I don't see anything that proves this adminstration has funded or has directed these 527 ads. Please remember this administration has denounced all these types of ads, Kerry has not.

Keep trying though, but you won't find anything, because they have nothing to do with this. This is America and they have every right to do what they are doing.

Oliver...

VJ1252
08-20-2004, 08:15 PM
Formal ties between bush and the swift boat group would be illegal. The Bush administration is smart enough not to leave a paper trail that could make them look bad. Even if they have nothing to do with this (which I doubt) bush could have used his influence to stop the ads. The Bush administration has denounce soft money ads but has not denounced the Swift Boat ad. Kerry did denounce the Moveon.org ad that attacked bush.

PhinPhan1227
08-20-2004, 08:44 PM
Formal ties between bush and the swift boat group would be illegal. The Bush administration is smart enough not to leave a paper trail that could make them look bad. Even if they have nothing to do with this (which I doubt) bush could have used his influence to stop the ads. The Bush administration has denounce soft money ads but has not denounced the Swift Boat ad. Kerry did denounce the Moveon.org ad that attacked bush.


But didn't put a stop to them either.

ohall
08-20-2004, 08:54 PM
Formal ties between bush and the swift boat group would be illegal. The Bush administration is smart enough not to leave a paper trail that could make them look bad. Even if they have nothing to do with this (which I doubt) bush could have used his influence to stop the ads. The Bush administration has denounce soft money ads but has not denounced the Swift Boat ad. Kerry did denounce the Moveon.org ad that attacked bush.

So then drop it.

Oliver...