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Section126
08-20-2004, 10:32 PM
This is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve Gardner was John Kerry's Gunner on HIS Swift Boat...and has now come forward and provided more details as to the Rassman day......

A direct quote:

Gardner: "The ships log says that we picked up Rassman a quarter of a mile into the river....John Kerry in his report says that we recieved fire from point of insertion to pick up to exit...The ships log says that we logged two miles total in....If we recieved fire for the whole two miles...that represents almost a batallion of VC.....There was not a batallion of VC on that day."

Another doozy:

Gardner: "Hey why didn't Kerry just say that we faced 2 or 3 Divisions....It would have been just as credible."

PhinPhan1227
08-20-2004, 11:17 PM
Where's this from?

ohall
08-21-2004, 12:39 AM
Where's this from?

Scarborough country. I was watching this as well. He really did hit Kerry pretty damn hard. This things is going to burry Kerry. He never should have come back and bashed his soldier in arms like he did.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-21-2004, 12:40 AM
Was it on a show? Local or national?

ohall
08-21-2004, 12:44 AM
Was it on a show? Local or national?

Sorry. MSNBC, his show is on every week night @ 10 PM EST on MSNBC and it's called "Scarborough country". Scarborough is an ex-REP Florida congressman.

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-21-2004, 12:45 AM
I wonder if we will see anything from it or if it will just get buried.

ohall
08-21-2004, 12:59 AM
I wonder if we will see anything from it or if it will just get buried.

This specific info, I doubt it will get out to the masses anytime soon, but this story has legs I suspect it will at some point. Because Kerry is going to take a beating on this and he is going to have to try and fight back and when he does the press have to cover that end of it at least. What's so annoying is most of the LIBERAL press is still covering for Kerry. They are going after these almost 300 soldiers rather than going after Kerry. It's amazing to me how they can get away this on a daily basis. If a REP was in a similar situation they would have burned him alive by now.

What was really interesting was Steve Gardner had a document that he said showed Kerry was the officer that was writing the after action reports that were influencing his record to get him out Vietnam early. Gardner basically said the uppers had no idea what Kerry was doing when it came to that.

There were a lot of hard hitting accusation coming from this guy. He made it clear the reason he was doing this was because of the things Kerry said about all the soldiers in Vietnam when he returned home. Kerry should have run on his Senate record, because his war record is going to be a liability by the time it's all said and done.

There was a guy there to represent Kerry, he is the token military guy Kerry runs around with. He didn't serve with Kerry but he runs a large military voting service for the DEM's. I just don't know how Kerry is going to shrug off the fact that one of his guys who served on his boat is now going after him.

Oliver...

ohall
08-21-2004, 01:05 AM
If you want 1227, by Monday or maybe even tomorrow there should transscripts available. If you want I can get you the URL when they publish the transcripts?

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-21-2004, 03:41 AM
If you want 1227, by Monday or maybe even tomorrow there should transscripts available. If you want I can get you the URL when they publish the transcripts?

Oliver...


Please!! I'd appreciate it.

Section126
08-21-2004, 06:59 PM
BTW...sorry about the post and run...I forgot to put that it was on MSNBC Scarborough Country.......My bad......

ohall
08-22-2004, 12:06 AM
Please!! I'd appreciate it.

I may get pretty busy on Monday 1227 if I forget please remind OK?

Oliver...

genx23
08-23-2004, 03:05 PM
Link to Transcript (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5797082/)

ohall
08-23-2004, 04:01 PM
Link to Transcript (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5797082/)

Thx Genx23

Oliver...

DolFan31
08-23-2004, 06:33 PM
So you guys really think John Kerry shot himself in combat on purpose to get those medals? This is reallllyyyy out there, worse than Bush being AWOL in Alabama or doing coke. Are you guys ever going to draw the line when any accusation that comes out that is way out there?

PhinPhan1227
08-23-2004, 06:43 PM
So you guys really think John Kerry shot himself in combat on purpose to get those medals? This is reallllyyyy out there, worse than Bush being AWOL in Alabama or doing coke. Are you guys ever going to draw the line when any accusation that comes out that is way out there?


Where the heck does it say he shot himself?

DolFan31
08-23-2004, 07:05 PM
Where the heck does it say he shot himself?

Its one of the thoeries some of the right have spewed out. Saw it on Hardball.

Anyway, how is what he did 30 years ago going to make him more or less a good President?

ohall
08-23-2004, 08:20 PM
Its one of the thoeries some of the right have spewed out. Saw it on Hardball.

Anyway, how is what he did 30 years ago going to make him more or less a good President?

When you lie about what your soldier in arms did in Vietnam you'll like about anything.

What he did when he returned is what is going to stick to this flip flopper and sink him. He never should have told those lies on his soldier of arms.

Oliver...

DolFan31
08-23-2004, 09:14 PM
When you lie about what your soldier in arms did in Vietnam you'll like about anything.

What he did when he returned is what is going to stick to this flip flopper and sink him. He never should have told those lies on his soldier of arms.

Oliver...

When you lie about where you were in the 70's when you're supposed to be in the National Haurd on duty, you'll lie about anything.

What Bush has done as President qualifies to be a flip-flopper just as much as Kerry does(see my infamous Bush Flip-Flopping Thread). He should have never labeled Kerry as a flip-flopper or question his military career.

ohall
08-23-2004, 09:37 PM
When you lie about where you were in the 70's when you're supposed to be in the National Haurd on duty, you'll lie about anything.

What Bush has done as President qualifies to be a flip-flopper just as much as Kerry does(see my infamous Bush Flip-Flopping Thread). He should have never labeled Kerry as a flip-flopper or question his military career.

Two seperate ppl, stop comparing apples to oranges. Bush #43 did not lie about where he was during the Vietnam war. You can spin that lie as much as you want to like Bush #43 is a flip flipper as well, none of that will stick. The facts make things very clear.

Kerry attacked the ppl he served with in Vietnam, and there's no way he can ever explain that away. He brought all of this upon to himself when he basically went communist after the Vietnam war and attacked his soldier in arms. Of course when he ran on his anti-war opinions and he lost he changed his stripes. This was his 1st flip flop and this is why he continues to flip flop. It has worked for him so far.

Oliver...

DolFan31
08-23-2004, 09:56 PM
Two seperate ppl, stop comparing apples to oranges. Bush #43 did not lie about where he was during the Vietnam war. You can spin that lie as much as you want to like Bush #43 is a flip flipper as well, none of that will stick. The facts make things very clear.

Kerry attacked the ppl he served with in Vietnam, and there's no way he can ever explain that away. He brought all of this upon to himself when he basically went communist after the Vietnam war and attacked his soldier in arms. Of course when he ran on his anti-war opinions and he lost he changed his stripes. This was his 1st flip flop and this is why he continues to flip flop. It has worked for him so far.

Oliver...

Ok Oliver, 5 questions for you...

1. Do you know how many Vietnam vets were protesting the war when they came back?

2.Do you know that many were Pro-Vietnam during its early days and later most were anti-Vietnam when the war wasnt exactly working out so well?

2. Do you even know what a communist is?

3. Do you know what the Bill of Rights is?

4. Do you know what the First Admendment is and what it states?

5. Do you think that someone who fought the war has more reason to protest it then someone who didnt?

PhinPhan1227
08-23-2004, 10:12 PM
Its one of the thoeries some of the right have spewed out. Saw it on Hardball.

Anyway, how is what he did 30 years ago going to make him more or less a good President?


Lol...Ask John Kerry!! That's the ONLY justification he has come forward with for being President. He has ridden the "War Hero" platform for months!!

ohall
08-23-2004, 10:20 PM
Ok Oliver, 5 questions for you...

1. Do you know how many Vietnam vets were protesting the war when they came back?

2.Do you know that many were Pro-Vietnam during its early days and later most were anti-Vietnam when the war wasnt exactly working out so well?

2. Do you even know what a communist is?

3. Do you know what the Bill of Rights is?

4. Do you know what the First Admendment is and what it states?

5. Do you think that someone who fought the war has more reason to protest it then someone who didnt?

1. Who cares? This doesn't exscuse Kerry's lies.

2. And?

2b. Yeah a communist is Kerry who went to meet with the Vietcon members in Paris. Try doing a lil homework before you embarrase yourself.

3. Yeah, and?

4. This is getting stupid!

5. No, I don't think being in a war gives you more or less rights to betray your country and soldiers who fight in a war for their country. Kerry is never going put away his actions from when he returned to the USA.

Anymore non-leading questions?

Oliver...

PhinPhan1227
08-23-2004, 10:23 PM
Ok Oliver, 5 questions for you...

1. Do you know how many Vietnam vets were protesting the war when they came back?

Many....but none of them were in front of Congress labeling the rest as baby killers. They had the loyalty to go after the leaders, not the soldiers.

2.Do you know that many were Pro-Vietnam during its early days and later most were anti-Vietnam when the war wasnt exactly working out so well?

John Kerry was against the war before he went. It's been postulated that he feared the draft ,and that's why he joined.

2. Do you even know what a communist is?

Above the tribal level, nobody has comeo up with a viable form of communism. Those who call themselves that are much more likely to be Socialists

3. Do you know what the Bill of Rights is?

Haven't memorized it, but I could give you the gist of the 10 Ammendments involved.

4. Do you know what the First Admendment is and what it states?

People have the right to express thier opinion. But everyone else has the right to react to that expression. If I don't like what you have to say, I have the right to not like you because of that statement. Oh...and if you lie I have the right to sue your a$$!!!

5. Do you think that someone who fought the war has more reason to protest it then someone who didnt?

Yep...but protesting the war is one thing...making up lies about your fellow soldiers that result in them having to spend 30 years wearing labels like "baby killer" is another. It's because of people like Kerry that we have to have things like "hate the war, not the soldier".

......................

DeDolfan
08-25-2004, 02:58 PM
Scarborough country. I was watching this as well. He really did hit Kerry pretty damn hard. This things is going to burry Kerry. He never should have come back and bashed his soldier in arms like he did.

Oliver...

You have a point there Oliver, but I find pretty odd is why didn't these guys make these claims 35 yrs ago when they should have been?
Does anyone else see that this is politically motivated? it's kind of like these "altar boy" suits. Guys were molested 30 yrs or so ago and NOW they come forth. Why?? Only the $$$$ to be had now! Besides, I often wonder how accurate some accounts are after so long a time. i remember when i served, alot of things that happened, I recall basically what went down but most of the smaller details are quite fuzzy at best. ;)

Section126
08-25-2004, 03:28 PM
You have a point there Oliver, but I find pretty odd is why didn't these guys make these claims 35 yrs ago when they should have been?
Does anyone else see that this is politically motivated? it's kind of like these "altar boy" suits. Guys were molested 30 yrs or so ago and NOW they come forth. Why?? Only the $$$$ to be had now! Besides, I often wonder how accurate some accounts are after so long a time. i remember when i served, alot of things that happened, I recall basically what went down but most of the smaller details are quite fuzzy at best. ;)


Kerry didn't run for President 30 years ago.....

PhinPhan1227
08-25-2004, 03:43 PM
You have a point there Oliver, but I find pretty odd is why didn't these guys make these claims 35 yrs ago when they should have been?
Does anyone else see that this is politically motivated? it's kind of like these "altar boy" suits. Guys were molested 30 yrs or so ago and NOW they come forth. Why?? Only the $$$$ to be had now! Besides, I often wonder how accurate some accounts are after so long a time. i remember when i served, alot of things that happened, I recall basically what went down but most of the smaller details are quite fuzzy at best. ;)


Why did Kerry wait 2 years after he was back from Vietnam before going public with his accusations? Why did he spend 2 years not saying a word to anyone?

ohall
08-25-2004, 04:29 PM
You have a point there Oliver, but I find pretty odd is why didn't these guys make these claims 35 yrs ago when they should have been?
Does anyone else see that this is politically motivated? it's kind of like these "altar boy" suits. Guys were molested 30 yrs or so ago and NOW they come forth. Why?? Only the $$$$ to be had now! Besides, I often wonder how accurate some accounts are after so long a time. i remember when i served, alot of things that happened, I recall basically what went down but most of the smaller details are quite fuzzy at best. ;)

My opinion on that is they all do not live in the Boston area so his political career didn't effect most of these guys. Plus he was a Senator; he really didn't have any direct control over any military forces. Now that he's running for the big enchilada I would think this is motivating most of them, because that would directly effect all of them.

I don't think this is a REP motivated situation. I honestly believe these men truly feel this guy Kerry is a fraud and this countries military would be in serious danger with him as commander in chief. I don't think their motivations go any deeper than that.

There are certain ppl you always remember, because they are such a-holes. I have a feeling this is the kind of person Kerry was then. Kerry basically went around talking like a British upper classman. I would think this alone would have annoyed most American soldiers at that time and would have engraved a lasting memory of someone like that.

Oliver...

Section126
08-25-2004, 05:10 PM
Its one of the thoeries some of the right have spewed out. Saw it on Hardball.

Anyway, how is what he did 30 years ago going to make him more or less a good President?


I saw the same interview........Chris Matthews was disgraceful....Malkin said "Self-Inflicted wound." (Which the Kerry people now say was probably the case) and matthews kept saying: "Your'e saying he SHOT HIMSELF?"

It was a straw man that Chrissy put up......NOBODY on the right has said that he SHOT himself...In fact....NOBODY on the right has said that he WOUNDED HIMSELF intentionally......

What is being said that he got the first Purple Heart and the last Purple heart due to Self Inflicted Wounds....for example...Throwing a grenade into a vat of rice and the rice blowing back out and embedding itself in your butt as you ran to take cover (1st Purple Heart)

Chris Matthews should be ashamed of himself for putting those words in malkin's mouth.

BTW..WHY WOULD ANYBODY SAY THAT HE SHOT HIMSELF WHEN HE HAS NEVER BEEN SHOT?

ohall
08-25-2004, 05:28 PM
I saw the same interview........Chris Matthews was disgraceful....Malkin said "Self-Inflicted wound." (Which the Kerry people now say was probably the case) and matthews kept saying: "Your'e saying he SHOT HIMSELF?"

It was a straw man that Chrissy put up......NOBODY on the right has said that he SHOT himself...In fact....NOBODY on the right has said that he WOUNDED HIMSELF intentionally......

What is being said that he got the first Purple Heart and the last Purple heart due to Self Inflicted Wounds....for example...Throwing a grenade into a vat of rice and the rice blowing back out and embedding itself in your butt as you ran to take cover (1st Purple Heart)

Chris Matthews should be ashamed of himself for putting those words in malkin's mouth.

BTW..WHY WOULD ANYBODY SAY THAT HE SHOT HIMSELF WHEN HE HAS NEVER BEEN SHOT?

I saw some of the interview; I lost a lot of respect for Chris after that. In fact I've lost a lot of respect at how he is handling this whole swift boat thing. For a guy who always talks about how everyone has a right to speak in America he sure is making a case against that recently.

DeDolfan
08-28-2004, 02:14 PM
Kerry didn't run for President 30 years ago.....

Exactly and thanks for making my point that it is totally politically motivated. If they were really opposed to his actions, they would have said something years ago. Now it is simply agenda motivated and nothing more all designed to take the heat off W's record. He [Bush] can't run on his own record so he has to resort to dirty politics now. The man fooled me once but it'll never happen again. That much i can promise you.

DeDolfan
08-28-2004, 02:20 PM
......................

if kerry feared the draft, then why would he join up and volunteer for combat duty then instead? Doesn't make any sense since most draftees of the time went to bbot camp, then on to some sort of combat traing and then stright over to nam for a 13 month tour and then if they survived, were discharged after a 2 yr hitch. What he signed up for was no more hazardous than the typical grunt duty.

ohall
08-28-2004, 03:57 PM
if kerry feared the draft, then why would he join up and volunteer for combat duty then instead? Doesn't make any sense since most draftees of the time went to bbot camp, then on to some sort of combat traing and then stright over to nam for a 13 month tour and then if they survived, were discharged after a 2 yr hitch. What he signed up for was no more hazardous than the typical grunt duty.

To play devil's advocate, Kerry simply could have joined up because it would look better after the war when he was going to be in politics rather than being drafted. Everyone understands Kerry has basically been running for some kind of political post since junior high.

I respect that he served his country, no matter what his motives were. But I do believe all these questions being thrown at him are valid questions and concerns to be asked and looked into. If he had not made the Vietnam War the focal point of his campaign I would think all of this type of attention would then be inappropriate. In short he did this to himself IMO.

PhinPhan1227
08-29-2004, 01:57 AM
if kerry feared the draft, then why would he join up and volunteer for combat duty then instead? Doesn't make any sense since most draftees of the time went to bbot camp, then on to some sort of combat traing and then stright over to nam for a 13 month tour and then if they survived, were discharged after a 2 yr hitch. What he signed up for was no more hazardous than the typical grunt duty.

Because he was able to pick which branch he wanted to join. Take a look at the losses amoung LT's in the different branches. Army, Marines, and Airforce lost a TON of junior officers. The Navy lost almost none.

DeDolfan
08-29-2004, 12:29 PM
To play devil's advocate, Kerry simply could have joined up because it would look better after the war when he was going to be in politics rather than being drafted. Everyone understands Kerry has basically been running for some kind of political post since junior high.

I respect that he served his country, no matter what his motives were. But I do believe all these questions being thrown at him are valid questions and concerns to be asked and looked into. If he had not made the Vietnam War the focal point of his campaign I would think all of this type of attention would then be inappropriate. In short he did this to himself IMO.

Oliver, i understand everything you're saying. However for someone to say that he "feared" the draft doesn't make sense since he voluntered for duty. That is unless that if what they meant by "feared" means that he feared that being drafted would jepordize his election hopes as opposed to voluntarily joining up. If that is what they meant, then they did a rather poor job of explaining that.
granted, he did bring the issue on himself. What i am against is that all of this swift boat opposition is coming almost, if not entirely, from republicans that have a present day agenda that are pro right regardless of the situation. These very same guys, some supposedly have admitting to lying about it since, were all officers, or at least that what it claims in the ads when they list the guys name and his rank, etc. That proves right there that those guys were not along with kerry and those 3 swift boats on that day in question. There were only 3 officers total, each in command of one of the boats, along with 5 enlisted crewman each. that totals 18 ppl in all on that mission in question. Only 2 of those officers are alive today, kerry and William Rood, who commanded one of the other boats. He is now a night editor for the Chicago Tribune and broke his silence last week about the incident and has totally backed up Kerry's story/claim, etc. As far as I know, so have most of the enlisted men there that day also. My problem with the whole mess is that how in this world can these guys making those swift boats ads possibly be telling the truth when they were not even there and their claims are in direct contrary to the stroies of the guys that were. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and therefore i have opined that this is strictly a political motivated ploy to ****f the focus from Bush and to discredit Kerry. While not "officially tied" to the bush campaign, it apparently is in some way since the guys that funded this crap are a bunch of Texas Republicans tied to that guy Rove who is a close Bush family friend. Not even to mention the campaign lawyer that quit because he was giving legal advice to the swift boat liars as well. And still, the only thing that Bush has "conceded" is to call for a stop to the ads, without even mentioning which ones. this is the problem i have with Bush. He'll tell us one thing, but apparently means another. If he was really concerned about those ads, he would've condemned them from the start but,no, he shuts the barn door well after the horse has gotten loose! I was still for Bush untli about a year ago, when all the reports and info started to come out about the info he used for his case for war, etc, etc. Even after the info was proven false and wrong over and over, he still would not acknowledge the issue of it nor make any corrections. rather he still insisted that we did the right thing in going into iraq. The way this mess is getting deeper and deeper everyday over there, it shows again that we erred greatly in doing this. My point all along has been that if Bush has acknowledged the mistakes and shown any kind of sincerity in the matter, i would not have a problem today. But his arrogance has just become more prevalent and if he gets re-elected, it will surely get worse. i have never said that i was a Kerry supporter. It is now that I am just against bush. Four yrs ago, I voted for Bush, mainly because i liked our chances better with him than with Gore. Now, i like our chances alot better with Kerry. Kerry may very well not be able to actually do any better but with Bush, it's just like we are with Jay Fiedler. We know what he brings to the table so we need someone new. bush is our country's "Jay Fiedler" !

DeDolfan
08-29-2004, 12:41 PM
Because he was able to pick which branch he wanted to join. Take a look at the losses amoung LT's in the different branches. Army, Marines, and Airforce lost a TON of junior officers. The Navy lost almost none.

This is true but the tradeoff is that by joining up [in stead of being drafted], you bound to usually a 4yr deal instead of 2. BUT, even that doesn't really wash here because when Kerry joined up, he volunterred for Viet Nam, specifically for swift boat duty, which is just about as dangerous duty as there was in that war. but even if he had just signed up for the regular navy and wound up staying stateside, it was a more honorable gesture than Bush's attempt to avoid any hazardous duty by getting "appointed" to the nG by a former texas Lt Gov. You see, there were strings pulled to get Dubya his cushy duty, and yet all the right wingers want to do is to lie about kerry's service record to take the heat off their own boy. this is the kind of crap that has turned my against Bush. Alot of folks say that Bush can not control what some others may do, which is true. By the same token, he sure doesn't go out of his way to comdemn any such acts either. Bush is for Bush [and his cronies] and for nobody else. Sorry, but this man fooled me [and the country] once, but he'll not foll me again. I just wish i could say the same for everyone else.

ohall
08-29-2004, 05:10 PM
Oliver, i understand everything you're saying. However for someone to say that he "feared" the draft doesn't make sense since he voluntered for duty. That is unless that if what they meant by "feared" means that he feared that being drafted would jepordize his election hopes as opposed to voluntarily joining up. If that is what they meant, then they did a rather poor job of explaining that.
granted, he did bring the issue on himself. What i am against is that all of this swift boat opposition is coming almost, if not entirely, from republicans that have a present day agenda that are pro right regardless of the situation. These very same guys, some supposedly have admitting to lying about it since, were all officers, or at least that what it claims in the ads when they list the guys name and his rank, etc. That proves right there that those guys were not along with kerry and those 3 swift boats on that day in question. There were only 3 officers total, each in command of one of the boats, along with 5 enlisted crewman each. that totals 18 ppl in all on that mission in question. Only 2 of those officers are alive today, kerry and William Rood, who commanded one of the other boats. He is now a night editor for the Chicago Tribune and broke his silence last week about the incident and has totally backed up Kerry's story/claim, etc. As far as I know, so have most of the enlisted men there that day also. My problem with the whole mess is that how in this world can these guys making those swift boats ads possibly be telling the truth when they were not even there and their claims are in direct contrary to the stroies of the guys that were. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and therefore i have opined that this is strictly a political motivated ploy to ****f the focus from Bush and to discredit Kerry. While not "officially tied" to the bush campaign, it apparently is in some way since the guys that funded this crap are a bunch of Texas Republicans tied to that guy Rove who is a close Bush family friend. Not even to mention the campaign lawyer that quit because he was giving legal advice to the swift boat liars as well. And still, the only thing that Bush has "conceded" is to call for a stop to the ads, without even mentioning which ones. this is the problem i have with Bush. He'll tell us one thing, but apparently means another. If he was really concerned about those ads, he would've condemned them from the start but,no, he shuts the barn door well after the horse has gotten loose! I was still for Bush untli about a year ago, when all the reports and info started to come out about the info he used for his case for war, etc, etc. Even after the info was proven false and wrong over and over, he still would not acknowledge the issue of it nor make any corrections. rather he still insisted that we did the right thing in going into iraq. The way this mess is getting deeper and deeper everyday over there, it shows again that we erred greatly in doing this. My point all along has been that if Bush has acknowledged the mistakes and shown any kind of sincerity in the matter, i would not have a problem today. But his arrogance has just become more prevalent and if he gets re-elected, it will surely get worse. i have never said that i was a Kerry supporter. It is now that I am just against bush. Four yrs ago, I voted for Bush, mainly because i liked our chances better with him than with Gore. Now, i like our chances alot better with Kerry. Kerry may very well not be able to actually do any better but with Bush, it's just like we are with Jay Fiedler. We know what he brings to the table so we need someone new. bush is our country's "Jay Fiedler" !

Feared meaning he'd be drafted into the Marines and not a commander of toy boat.

Bush is our countries Jay Fiedler? My God man you've lost it. :D

PhinPhan1227
08-30-2004, 02:01 AM
This is true but the tradeoff is that by joining up [in stead of being drafted], you bound to usually a 4yr deal instead of 2. BUT, even that doesn't really wash here because when Kerry joined up, he volunterred for Viet Nam, specifically for swift boat duty, which is just about as dangerous duty as there was in that war. but even if he had just signed up for the regular navy and wound up staying stateside, it was a more honorable gesture than Bush's attempt to avoid any hazardous duty by getting "appointed" to the nG by a former texas Lt Gov. You see, there were strings pulled to get Dubya his cushy duty, and yet all the right wingers want to do is to lie about kerry's service record to take the heat off their own boy. this is the kind of crap that has turned my against Bush. Alot of folks say that Bush can not control what some others may do, which is true. By the same token, he sure doesn't go out of his way to comdemn any such acts either. Bush is for Bush [and his cronies] and for nobody else. Sorry, but this man fooled me [and the country] once, but he'll not foll me again. I just wish i could say the same for everyone else.



Fact check....

#1-Even with a longer service, one year in Vietnam is all that would have been required.

#2-Kerry didn't join up and volunteer for Vietnam. He served on a ship first and only after time requested duty in Vietnam.

#3-Sorry, but losses among junior officers were MASSIVELY higher in the infantry and air units.

Look, I don't down Kerry for his service in Vietnam. But it's innaccurate to say Kerry "volunteered" without pointing out that he DID seek a deferement. I'm only asking you to be accurate, and paint a picture that is true to the facts, without distortion. If Kerry had done the same thing during the convention, he wouldn't be having as much trouble. He tried to bury his actions after the war by wraping himself in the flag...and people didn't like that when the truth was pointed out to them.

DeDolfan
08-30-2004, 12:49 PM
Feared meaning he'd be drafted into the Marines and not a commander of toy boat.

Bush is our countries Jay Fiedler? My God man you've lost it. :D

Actually, one was not drafted into the marines, only the army. Not a big deal but i knew what you meant tho! :)

However, that "toy boat" was probably the most hazardous duty in the entire Navy at the time, other than carrier pilots and the folks working on the flight decks, etc.

DeDolfan
08-30-2004, 12:56 PM
Fact check....

#1-Even with a longer service, one year in Vietnam is all that would have been required.

#2-Kerry didn't join up and volunteer for Vietnam. He served on a ship first and only after time requested duty in Vietnam.

#3-Sorry, but losses among junior officers were MASSIVELY higher in the infantry and air units.

Look, I don't down Kerry for his service in Vietnam. But it's innaccurate to say Kerry "volunteered" without pointing out that he DID seek a deferement. I'm only asking you to be accurate, and paint a picture that is true to the facts, without distortion. If Kerry had done the same thing during the convention, he wouldn't be having as much trouble. He tried to bury his actions after the war by wraping himself in the flag...and people didn't like that when the truth was pointed out to them.

1) So what's your point? you'd still be required to serve the total hitch. Yes, 13 months was all that was required and they stuck to that. not like today when the deployments are considerably shorter and once there, they are literally forced to stay longer than they were supposed to. You think those guys still carry a high regard for the Prez now??

PhinPhan1227
08-30-2004, 03:24 PM
1) So what's your point? you'd still be required to serve the total hitch. Yes, 13 months was all that was required and they stuck to that. not like today when the deployments are considerably shorter and once there, they are literally forced to stay longer than they were supposed to. You think those guys still carry a high regard for the Prez now??


My point? One year as an LT in the Infantry is a WHOLE different story from one year in a PBR. I'll have to look up the stat, but I believe the life expectancy of an infantry LT was something like 2 months or less. In the Marines and Army the casualty rate among Junior Officers was something like 75-85%. Out of Kerry's unit I believe one officer out of roughly 20+ didn't survive the war. There was a WORLD of difference between volunteering and being drafted. For a Junior Officer the difference was probably life and death.

DeDolfan
08-30-2004, 03:39 PM
My point? One year as an LT in the Infantry is a WHOLE different story from one year in a PBR. I'll have to look up the stat, but I believe the life expectancy of an infantry LT was something like 2 months or less. In the Marines and Army the casualty rate among Junior Officers was something like 75-85%. Out of Kerry's unit I believe one officer out of roughly 20+ didn't survive the war. There was a WORLD of difference between volunteering and being drafted. For a Junior Officer the difference was probably life and death.

i see what you're saying but it sounds like you're trying to paint a picture that PBR duty was pretty much a cakewalk. Granted, the grunts had a hell of a time but at least the unit as a whole had a point man out there, beating the bushes for them and rooting out Charlie, etc. His life expentancy was zilch and that indeed was a hell of a stat and i'll never downplay that at all. On a PBR, you couldn't send out a man on point. They cruise up and down the river, never knowing where Charlie will strike or when. When he does, it's all hell breaking loose at once on everyone. But i still contend that the only difference in a sense between being drafted and volunterring all depends on what one volunteers for. If he volunteers and becomes a jet mech in the air force is one thing. Volunteering FOR combat is quite another. Now whether he volunteered for combat immediately or even a couple months later is quite irrelevant. Fact remains that he did. It really puzzles me how some ppl try to belittle kerry's service and bla, bla, bla, all the while excusing bush for basically just ducking out. Really baffles my mind!!

PhinPhan1227
08-30-2004, 03:45 PM
i see what you're saying but it sounds like you're trying to paint a picture that PBR duty was pretty much a cakewalk. Granted, the grunts had a hell of a time but at least the unit as a whole had a point man out there, beating the bushes for them and rooting out Charlie, etc. His life expentancy was zilch and that indeed was a hell of a stat and i'll never downplay that at all. On a PBR, you couldn't send out a man on point. They cruise up and down the river, never knowing where Charlie will strike or when. When he does, it's all hell breaking loose at once on everyone. But i still contend that the only difference in a sense between being drafted and volunterring all depends on what one volunteers for. If he volunteers and becomes a jet mech in the air force is one thing. Volunteering FOR combat is quite another. Now whether he volunteered for combat immediately or even a couple months later is quite irrelevant. Fact remains that he did. It really puzzles me how some ppl try to belittle kerry's service and bla, bla, bla, all the while excusing bush for basically just ducking out. Really baffles my mind!!

Again, I don't belitttle Kerrys service. I just want an accurate picture presented. I'd also disagree with anyone who tried to claim that Bush volunteered to be a pilot and left it at that.

ohall
08-30-2004, 04:50 PM
i see what you're saying but it sounds like you're trying to paint a picture that PBR duty was pretty much a cakewalk. Granted, the grunts had a hell of a time but at least the unit as a whole had a point man out there, beating the bushes for them and rooting out Charlie, etc. His life expentancy was zilch and that indeed was a hell of a stat and i'll never downplay that at all. On a PBR, you couldn't send out a man on point. They cruise up and down the river, never knowing where Charlie will strike or when. When he does, it's all hell breaking loose at once on everyone. But i still contend that the only difference in a sense between being drafted and volunterring all depends on what one volunteers for. If he volunteers and becomes a jet mech in the air force is one thing. Volunteering FOR combat is quite another. Now whether he volunteered for combat immediately or even a couple months later is quite irrelevant. Fact remains that he did. It really puzzles me how some ppl try to belittle kerry's service and bla, bla, bla, all the while excusing bush for basically just ducking out. Really baffles my mind!!

I know if I had a choice I'd rather be on a PBR than a frontline officer during the Vietnam war.

CrunchTime
08-30-2004, 05:35 PM
I think the public is tired of this issue.It has played out.Any "new" discoveries are not going to get much attention.People already have made up their minds.

DolphinDevil28
08-30-2004, 05:37 PM
I think the public is tired of this issue.

You can blame Mr. Kerry for that.

ohall
08-30-2004, 07:43 PM
I think the public is tired of this issue.It has played out.Any "new" discoveries are not going to get much attention.People already have made up their minds.

I don't think this issue is going any where. It has some serious legs. After the convention I would think the swifties will drop a new ad burrying Kerry with his own words again. There is so much material there to burry Kerry with. He created so much of that material.