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Scrap
08-23-2004, 03:26 PM
I got this in an email. I'm not sure if it's been posted yet, or not, but I figuerd some of you would like it.


Subject: LINDA RONSTADT INCIDENT

You may recall, the Aladdin Casino in Las Vegas "threw out" Linda Ronstadt
for her anti American stance while performing. This caused Michael Moore to
send a strong letter of complaint to the President of the Aladdin. Here is his
letter, and the reply from Mr. Timmins.
>Bill Timmins President Aladdin Casino and Hotel Las Vegas, NV July 20, 2004
Dear Mr. Timmins:
I understand from the news reports I've read that, after Linda Ronstadt, one
of America's greatest singers, dedicated a song to me from your stage on
Saturday night, you instructed your security guards to remove her from the Aladdin,
which they did.
What country do you live in? Last time I checked, Las Vegas is still in the
United States. And in the United States, we have something called "The First
Amendment." This constitutional right gives everyone here the right to say
whatever they want to say. All Americans hold this right as sacred. Many of our
young people put on a uniform and risk their lives to defend it. My film is all
about asking the questions that should have been asked before those brave
soldiers were sent into harms way.
For you to throw Linda Ronstadt off the premises because she dared to say a
few words in support of me and my film, is simply stupid and Un-American.
Frankly, I have never heard of such a thing happening. I read that you wouldn't
even let her go back up to her room at your hotel! Are you crazy? For crying out
loud, it was a song DEDICATION! To "Desperado!" Every American loves that
song! Sure, some people didn't like the dedication, and that's their right. But
neither they nor you have the right to remove her from your building when all
she did was exercise her AMERICAN right to speak her mind.
Of all the things that go on in Las Vegas, this is what creates the need for
serious action? What about the other half of the crowd at the Aladdin who,
according to the Las Vegas Sun, cheered her when she made her remarks? Did you
throw them out, too?
I think you owe Ms. Ronstadt an apology. And I have an idea how you can make
it up to her -- and to the millions of Americans you have offended. Invite her
back and I'll join her in singing "America the Beautiful" on your stage. Then
I will show "Fahrenheit 9/11" free of charge to all your guests and anyone
else in Las Vegas who wants to see it.
Mr. Timmins, as the song "Desperado" says -- "Come to your senses!" How can
you refuse this offer? I await your reply.
Yours, Michael Moore Director, "Fahrenheit 9/11"
Response
===============================================
July 21, 2004 Attention: Michael Moore,

In response to your letter dated July 20, 2004: You are correct that I had
security remove Linda Ronstadt from Aladdin Casino and Hotel where the fun never
ends and everybody wins.
How very interesting to learn you are such a fan of Ms. Ronstadt. You
questioned where I live and surprisingly knew Las Vegas is in the United States. You
should visit it sometime. There are thousands of wonderful "All You Can Eat"
buffets.
There are also a lot of casinos who's owners don't **** around. I am aware of
the First Amendment and you have the right to talk about your hatred of
America but once you are on my property and you are upsetting my guests, you will
quickly learn about my rights.
I can't remember if it was Jesus or George W. Bush that said, "Freedom is a
two-way street." Ms. Ronstadt learned this long before I had her thrown out of
my casino. You question my actions? If you come onto my property and upset my
guests, you will receive the same, if not worse, treatment than Ms. Ronstadt
received. I am sure your mere presence would upset my guests.
You claim your film, "...is all about asking the questions that should have
been asked before those brave soldiers were sent into harms way." I think your
film does nothing but aid the enemy and hurt our troops. You have betrayed our
troops, our leader and America. I have no respect for you or your vision of
what America should be.
I paid Ms. Ronstadt to entertain my guests, not divide them. The half that
did not leave probably thought the verse you mentioned, "Why don't you come to
your senses" was addressed to you. Maybe she should have dedicated her song,
'You're No Good' to you. I would have asked her back, had she done that.
Regarding your request for me to apologize to her, have you and her on my
stage singing anything about this Country and then playing your piece of
**** film is ludicrous!
One of my workers is currently throwing away every complaint letter from
brainless followers of you, claiming they will never visit my Casino. I could not
be more pleased to know my casino and hotel will always be void of the kind of
people who support you. Meanwhile, my hotel has been quickly booked solid for
the rest of the year with true Americans who love this Country and support
our efforts overseas.
They will see a framed copy of your letter and my response in the lobby to
ensure they begin their experience with a laugh.
Sincerely,
Bill Timmins

TorontoFin
08-23-2004, 04:58 PM
You're right I do love it. You know, I used to be a big Pearl Jam fan (still am of the music, anyway), but Eddie Vedder's misguided, Chompsky-inspired tirades against his own country is turning me off slowly. I got a kick from Eddie's response to a loud minority of his fans in Denver last year who booed and walked out after one of his anti-America monologues. He said that there was "something called freedom of speech in this country and he was going to g-d damn use it." Good for you Eddie, glad to hear you know your rights. But what these entertainers consistently fail to realize is that the audience is quite aware of theirs as well. The big difference is that they don't have a stage facing an audience of 40,000 people, or able to put their message on an album that will reach hundreds of thousands. All they got, Eddie and Linda is their boos, and their feet to walk out on your show. That's how they express freedom of speech. Unfortunately for you guys, sometimes --yes its hard to believe -- they can make an impact too. And their actions may actually force you to be accountable for what you say. Yes.. you can say what you want, but you must also be ready to face the consequences of a possible response. That isn't censorship. Censorship would be having the Mike's turned off before you can say anything, or the studio cutting out a certain lyric. Eddie, and Linda had their say. The people had theirs, and the owner of the venue chose who to listen to. The people at the PJ concert had a limited impact. They made a statement but in the end, no other promoter cancelled any shows. In the Vegas situation, the people's statement had an impact and changed the situation. Works both ways. That's America.
Celebrities kill me. Mike Moore, Sean Penn and Alec Baldwin constantly complain that they're being blacklisted or censored for their opinions. Where do they usually make these statements? On national TV -- either on some national talk show or while they're accepting awards for the multi-million dollar movies they're supposed to be blacklisted from. Only a celebrity -- most of whom exist in a bubble where any objective take on the real world has been naturally removed -- could so easily miss the irony of the such a situation.
(BTW Alec, your promised one-way departure from the U.S. has been sitting idle for four years now).

1972
08-23-2004, 04:59 PM
That is probably the letter Mr. Timmins wishes he could send Moore.

PhinPhan1227
08-23-2004, 05:08 PM
I think that every person who touts "freedom of speech" when someone ELSE partakes in THEIR freedom of speech should get b1tch slapped. Linda Rondstadt doesn't have freedom of speech on someone elses property. What's more, the owner of the Aladin has the right to express his displeasure at whatever LR cares to say. See, that's what these exptremists fail to remember...you DO have the right to express your opinion. But I also have the right to ignore, comment on, or takes steps to avoid that opinion. Freedom of speech is a two edged sword, but I don;t think Michael Moore can count that high.

1972
08-23-2004, 05:26 PM
Did you hear that the incoming president of the Aladdin is going to welcome Linda Ronstadt back and invite Michael Moore to join her on stage?

Wuss move in my opinion.

TorontoFin
08-24-2004, 12:33 AM
I think that every person who touts "freedom of speech" when someone ELSE partakes in THEIR freedom of speech should get b1tch slapped. Linda Rondstadt doesn't have freedom of speech on someone elses property. What's more, the owner of the Aladin has the right to express his displeasure at whatever LR cares to say. See, that's what these exptremists fail to remember...you DO have the right to express your opinion. But I also have the right to ignore, comment on, or takes steps to avoid that opinion. Freedom of speech is a two edged sword, but I don;t think Michael Moore can count that high.
Agreed. Except that Moore CAN count that high, he needs to to keep tabs on all his millions. In a sick way, I find it hard to hate the guy. I mean, he's the untimate capitalist: he found a niche market with the uninformed, angry, self-loathing anti-globalization wing of the Dem party, and is making millions supplying their insane demands for anything Anti-American. He provides proverbial porn for the brain...

caneproud117
08-24-2004, 02:03 AM
I think that every person who touts "freedom of speech" when someone ELSE partakes in THEIR freedom of speech should get b1tch slapped. Linda Rondstadt doesn't have freedom of speech on someone elses property. What's more, the owner of the Aladin has the right to express his displeasure at whatever LR cares to say. See, that's what these exptremists fail to remember...you DO have the right to express your opinion. But I also have the right to ignore, comment on, or takes steps to avoid that opinion. Freedom of speech is a two edged sword, but I don;t think Michael Moore can count that high.
You're right about everything except for this part, that my friend is against the law. To suppress an opinion you don't like by 1.)firing someone 2.)Making the work place a living hell so they quit or 3.)demoting them based on that opinion are all illegal in the work place.

PhinPhan1227
08-24-2004, 02:38 AM
You're right about everything except for this part, that my friend is against the law. To suppress an opinion you don't like by 1.)firing someone 2.)Making the work place a living hell so they quit or 3.)demoting them based on that opinion are all illegal in the work place.

You can't fire them because they hold an opinion, but you can certainly fire them for expressing it. You can't descriminate and allow some people to voice political opinions and not others...but you can certainly repress self expression to your hearts content.

TorontoFin
08-24-2004, 01:00 PM
True. No you can't fire someone for holding an opinion, or even expressing it in some circumstances. But you can if that person's expression becomes injurious to your business or livlihood. Then it ceases to become a freedom of speech issue and becomes a work quality issue. Linda Ronstadt's comments, for example, were made while ON THE JOB and upset and offended the people she was being paid to entertain. Obviously she didn't entertain them, only angered them which has the potential to disrupt business. So she was rightfully let go. It's as simple as that. Do you have total free speech at your workplace? I don't. I can't tell my Boss's customers their products are s-- or I don't like them personally. Well I could.. but I'd have to accept responsability for my actions, which is to get fired -- something that my boos has every right to do in order to maintain his customers and his business.

TorontoFin
08-24-2004, 01:11 PM
Also, people think Free Speech is no-strings-attached right. Yes, you have the right not to be persecuted or imprisoned by the state for your opinion or your expression of it -- but that is pretty much as far as it goes. There is nothing stopping business or the general public from refusing to be a vehicle for your opinion -- and rightlfully so. Does that mean a publishing company should be forced to publish facist or communist material, because its your right to express it? No. Go ahead and express it, but you're on your own, unless someone AGREES to assist or promote you.

caneproud117
08-24-2004, 03:22 PM
True. No you can't fire someone for holding an opinion, or even expressing it in some circumstances. But you can if that person's expression becomes injurious to your business or livlihood. Then it ceases to become a freedom of speech issue and becomes a work quality issue. Linda Ronstadt's comments, for example, were made while ON THE JOB and upset and offended the people she was being paid to entertain. Obviously she didn't entertain them, only angered them which has the potential to disrupt business. So she was rightfully let go. It's as simple as that. Do you have total free speech at your workplace? I don't. I can't tell my Boss's customers their products are s-- or I don't like them personally. Well I could.. but I'd have to accept responsability for my actions, which is to get fired -- something that my boos has every right to do in order to maintain his customers and his business.
See I didn't say anything about insulting anyone or products of their company. This is politics and any person has a right to voice their opinion on their beliefs. Ever heard of a thing called freedom from persecution of beliefs? As a company you have the right not to publish something you don't deem acceptable, but you don't have the right to fire based on beliefs that don't coincide with yours.

PhinPhan1227
08-24-2004, 03:30 PM
See I didn't say anything about insulting anyone or products of their company. This is politics and any person has a right to voice their opinion on their beliefs. Ever heard of a thing called freedom from persecution of beliefs?


That's why I said that you can't allow some people to express political opinions and not others. But a company CERTAINLY has the right to prohibit people from voicing political opinions in the work place.

caneproud117
08-24-2004, 03:43 PM
That's why I said that you can't allow some people to express political opinions and not others. But a company CERTAINLY has the right to prohibit people from voicing political opinions in the work place.
I believe everyone should be allowed to express their political opinion and not just her.

PhinPhan1227
08-24-2004, 06:50 PM
I believe everyone should be allowed to express their political opinion and not just her.


The people who paid to see her in concert paid to hear her sing, not to hear her political ideas. She is free to put on her own concert and declare anything she wants. But the owner of the Casino has the right to protect his patrons.

TorontoFin
08-25-2004, 04:24 PM
I believe everyone should be allowed to express their political opinion and not just her.


You miss the point. No one stopped her from expressing her opinion. She DID express it. That doesn't mean one shouldn't be held accountable for what they say. It's about cause and effect. After the show she could have walked on the main strip and repeated the same speech to anyone who would listen..no one would have stopped her. She even could have signed another deal with another hotel, if there was indeed a demand for her, despite her views. She could have contacted Mikey Moore and asked if he would have sponsored an entire tour in areas where people want to hear her opinion...she can write a book and give her opinion..she can take out a full page ad in the NYT and or air commercials if it means that much to her... should I continue? she gambled that people wouldn't mind her detracting from what she was paid to do. They did, and she lost. too bad and move. The Dixie chicks did, and they're doin' fine, still spouting their nonesense..they've just learned when and where to do it.