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View Full Version : Drew Bledsoe discussion split from a Wade Smith thread.



Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 12:34 PM
Good point. But at least it does demonstrate how stupid it is to trade a future 2nd round pick for a current 3rd round pick. Hold on to your damn picks! The idea is to draft as many players a possible, increasing the odds of a few panning out. The Bills and Dolphins haven't learned this yet apparently. You should hope the next regime has.
Easy for you to say just because you have a HC that can get the most out of your players no matter what rd. they were drafted.

If you are referrring to the Drew trade, hindsight is 20/20. Not a single person on the planet said he was washed up in the first 6 months w/ the bills. It's easy to judge that move after the fact.

Losman, was a good move considering there won't be a qb as good as he is in next years draft. Besides, 1 year of learning will benefit him and the bills should Drew be done by the years end.

Den54
09-22-2004, 01:10 PM
Easy for you to say just because you have a HC that can get the most out of your players no matter what rd. they were drafted.

If you are referrring to the Drew trade, hindsight is 20/20. Not a single person on the planet said he was washed up in the first 6 months w/ the bills. It's easy to judge that move after the fact.

Losman, was a good move considering there won't be a qb as good as he is in next years draft. Besides, 1 year of learning will benefit him and the bills should Drew be done by the years end.


Cat fight!! Cat fight!! :lol:

MikeO
09-22-2004, 01:49 PM
Easy for you to say just because you have a HC that can get the most out of your players no matter what rd. they were drafted.

If you are referrring to the Drew trade, hindsight is 20/20. Not a single person on the planet said he was washed up in the first 6 months w/ the bills. It's easy to judge that move after the fact.

Losman, was a good move considering there won't be a qb as good as he is in next years draft. Besides, 1 year of learning will benefit him and the bills should Drew be done by the years end.Drew has been done for 2 years you guys just haven't known it. He is Troy Aikman at the end of his career. He is only productive if EVERYONE around him plays perfectly. Ask Drew to make a play on his own, and he can't. He can't move, and he can't make a play when things break down. He is a very bad QB and has been for a couple years.

Those first 6 months you had him,he had Price and Moulds playing out of their minds. Once they came back to earth......so did Drew.

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 01:50 PM
Easy for you to say just because you have a HC that can get the most out of your players no matter what rd. they were drafted.

If you are referrring to the Drew trade, hindsight is 20/20. Not a single person on the planet said he was washed up in the first 6 months w/ the bills. It's easy to judge that move after the fact.

Losman, was a good move considering there won't be a qb as good as he is in next years draft. Besides, 1 year of learning will benefit him and the bills should Drew be done by the years end.
what do you base the comment that there wont be a QB as good as him in the next draft on?

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 01:55 PM
what do you base the comment that there wont be a QB as good as him in the next draft on?
Tell me what qb in College that is better right now that will available next year?

bigmiamifan
09-22-2004, 01:59 PM
Drew has been done for 2 years you guys just haven't known it. He is Troy Aikman at the end of his career. He is only productive if EVERYONE around him plays perfectly. Ask Drew to make a play on his own, and he can't. He can't move, and he can't make a play when things break down. He is a very bad QB and has been for a couple years.

Those first 6 months you had him,he had Price and Moulds playing out of their minds. Once they came back to earth......so did Drew.

I don't think so. Drew just like AJ and Jay has no time to throw the ball. Their OL sucks as bad as ours. If Drew had time to throw he could still be effective. Just because a QB isn't mobile (cough*Dan*cough) doesn't mean he;s not a great QB.

LIQUID24
09-22-2004, 02:00 PM
Tell me what qb in College that is better right now that will available next year?
Possibly Aaron Rodgers, Matt Leinart, Andrew Walter or Kyle Orton. No one knows for sure.

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 02:01 PM
leinart, walters, and maybe orton

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 02:02 PM
Drew has been done for 2 years you guys just haven't known it. He is Troy Aikman at the end of his career. He is only productive if EVERYONE around him plays perfectly. Ask Drew to make a play on his own, and he can't. He can't move, and he can't make a play when things break down. He is a very bad QB and has been for a couple years.

Those first 6 months you had him,he had Price and Moulds playing out of their minds. Once they came back to earth......so did Drew.you weren't saying that then and the first 2 games last year were you? Who do you think was throwing to Moulds and Price? Henry?

It's easy for you to say he's washed up after the fact, huh? Even more qualified people than you were saying it was a good trade for the bills then. Even Marino said on HBO that if he had to pick a qb it would be Drew (at that time). I don't think he's the qb he once was but I still think he may have a little left in him. It's only been 2 games.

If you are gonna judge him after two games, that would mean Feely is washed up before his carreer even took off.

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 02:04 PM
Possibly Aaron Rodgers, Matt Leinart, Andrew Walter or Kyle Orton. No one knows for sure.Who? Maybe in time but not next year. A qb w/ Losman's talent who's had 1 year to learn about the NFL is worth more than any qb in next years draft that will not start til' 2006.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2004, 02:11 PM
It's easy for you to say he's washed up after the fact, huh? Even more qualified people than you were saying it was a good trade for the bills then. Even Marino said on HBO that if he had to pick a qb it would be Drew (at that time). But thats what Donahoe is paid for. To be able to assess NFL talent and determine whether a guy is worth a #1 and a good chunk of your salary cap. Who cares what Marino says on HBO. If he's listening to these guys, god help the Bills.

So now what do the Bills do next year? Do they keep Drew around another year or do they take the cap hit and part ways, starting a, more or less, redshirted rookie? Or do they find another stopgap QB from the dredges of the wire?

And you don't have a #1 to help you out. Yeah, brilliant GMing by your man Donahoe. Then you can sit back and watch to see which RB wants out of town faster looking at the fatties that are going to try to block for them. And then there's the Mike Williams boo boo.

And then you get to watch Bill Parcells draft a stud next year...

Dolphins12thMan
09-22-2004, 02:14 PM
Tell me what qb in College that is better right now that will available next year?


Dan Orlovsky

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 02:16 PM
Yea but if your getting a franchise QB for the next 10 years you want to get the best guy possible, not say well he will be better than a rookie next year. The bills could have drafted a rookie next year and signed a veteran QB as a stopgap solution

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 02:45 PM
But thats what Donahoe is paid for. To be able to assess NFL talent and determine whether a guy is worth a #1 and a good chunk of your salary cap. Who cares what Marino says on HBO. If he's listening to these guys, god help the Bills.

So now what do the Bills do next year? Do they keep Drew around another year or do they take the cap hit and part ways, starting a, more or less, redshirted rookie? Or do they find another stopgap QB from the dredges of the wire?

And you don't have a #1 to help you out. Yeah, brilliant GMing by your man Donahoe. Then you can sit back and watch to see which RB wants out of town faster looking at the fatties that are going to try to block for them. And then there's the Mike Williams boo boo.

And then you get to watch Bill Parcells draft a stud next year... Donohoe wasn't wrong and neither were you thinking that when Drew was lighting it up in 2002. If TD had a crystal ball that makes sure that a qb doesn't drop that fast then we'd be in the sb every year wouldn't we?

MY point is, Reed, Clements, Kelsay, Williams, Evans ,Losman,Mcgahee, Henry (is still young and we drafted him) just proves that were are not ones that gave our picks away .

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 02:47 PM
Yea but if your getting a franchise QB for the next 10 years you want to get the best guy possible, not say well he will be better than a rookie next year. The bills could have drafted a rookie next year and signed a veteran QB as a stopgap solutionIsn't Drew a stop gap? The guys you picked out wouldn't even be considered a first rd. talent in this years draft.

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 02:58 PM
Isn't Drew a stop gap? The guys you picked out wouldn't even be considered a first rd. talent in this years draft. hahaha
please tell me how you know they wouldnt have been first round talent in this years draft? Palmer wasnt considered to be a first round pick then he finally got it in his senior year and ended up being the #1 pick. Leinart led his team to a share of the national title in his sophmore year and his first year of starting. how many QBs have done that? If leinart tears it up this year like he is doing so far he will be a top 5 pick. and definitely would have been top 20 in last years draft. he may have been picked ahead of big ben, def ahead of losman. oh yea draft experts say henson would have been a top ten pick in this years draft and you could have had for less than you had losman.

EDIT- I meant if drew looks completely washed up you can get a guy like garcia or brunnell next year.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2004, 03:09 PM
Donohoe wasn't wrong and neither were you thinking that when Drew was lighting it up in 2002.Sure I was. The guy hasn't looked good in years, since Parcells left NE. You think a string of 8 good games in 2002 changed my perception that he was a mediocre QB? I watched his skills slowly degenerate through the Pete Carroll years, I think I know Drew Bledsoe. Whatever, stay in denial, its easier than to admit it was a bad trade.

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 03:12 PM
Sure I was. The guy hasn't looked good in years, since Parcells left NE. You think a string of 8 good games in 2002 changed my perception that he was a mediocre QB? I watched his skills slowly degenerate through the Pete Carroll years, I think I know Drew Bledsoe. Whatever, stay in denial, its easier than to admit it was a bad trade.
It wasn't a bad trade then considering all we had was Van Pelt and a team that was in cap hell the year before. Did any of you guys know that the Colvin pick up was gonna turn bad for the Pats considering he's been injury prone? NO. He was a great pick up. Who would've known he'd get injured....again.

the Drew trade came out as part of what you stated that we do not build our future via the draft. Why did you leave that out?

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 03:19 PM
hahaha
please tell me how you know they wouldnt have been first round talent in this years draft? Palmer wasnt considered to be a first round pick then he finally got it in his senior year and ended up being the #1 pick. Leinart led his team to a share of the national title in his sophmore year and his first year of starting. how many QBs have done that? If leinart tears it up this year like he is doing so far he will be a top 5 pick. and definitely would have been top 20 in last years draft. he may have been picked ahead of big ben, def ahead of losman. oh yea draft experts say henson would have been a top ten pick in this years draft and you could have had for less than you had losman.

EDIT- I meant if drew looks completely washed up you can get a guy like garcia or brunnell next year.Do you know anything about college football? Ask anyone if they would be first rd. talent this year HELLOOOO! as a matter of fact some of your fellow finfans wanted Losman.

If Lienhart tears it up this year "IF" .Losman was a proven college player , helloo!!!!! Did you know that the bills tried to get Drew Henson but lost out to the Cowboys. Man, you're misinformed.

MY point which you have a hard time seeing is that Losman will have had a year learning under his belt by next years draft and should be ready compared to any of those qb's from next year. :rolleyes:

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 03:43 PM
UMMM OK..... Just out of curiousity....Why is Losman going to be a better QB in the NFL, when he hasnt even played a down yet?? QB's bust all the time.....so why are you so sure he is gonna be a good one?? The transition from college to the NFL is huge, You can't tell if next years QB's will bust or be an immediate star. Who knows what if a rookie next year pulls a Marino and is great his rookie year, yes not a good chance that is gonna happen, but stop being a Losman homer.... You are the defintion of a homer....

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 03:47 PM
UMMM OK..... Just out of curiousity....Why is Losman going to be a better QB in the NFL, when he hasnt even played a down yet?? QB's bust all the time.....so why are you so sure he is gonna be a good one?? The transition from college to the NFL is huge, You can't tell if next years QB's will bust or be an immediate star. Who knows what if a rookie next year pulls a Marino and is great his rookie year, yes not a good chance that is gonna happen, but stop being a Losman homer.... You are the defintion of a homer.... Did I say Losman or any other qb's will bust or be an instant success? I implied a year of preparation in the NFL would be a definite plus over those that are still in college. If that makes me a homer than you're brain dead. Learn to read , will ya.

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 03:53 PM
Do you know anything about college football? Ask anyone if they would be first rd. talent this year HELLOOOO! as a matter of fact some of your fellow finfans wanted Losman.

If Lienhart tears it up this year "IF" .Losman was a proven college player , helloo!!!!! Did you know that the bills tried to get Drew Henson but lost out to the Cowboys. Man, you're misinformed.

MY point which you have a hard time seeing is that Losman will have had a year learning under his belt by next years draft and should be ready compared to any of those qb's from next year. :rolleyes:

sorry your right I should have known better than to question the all-knowing tom donahoe. oh wait if a few fin fans wanted losman then he must be awesome. some fin fans still want us to start jay but it doesnt change my opinion that he sucks.

leinart is proven he won a national championship and he couldnt have been drafted because he was a sophmore.

yes I know you tried to get henson had you offered more than dallas maybe just maybe houston would have traded him to you. yea he should be better next year but what about 3 years from now. like I said earlier if I was getting a franchise QB I would get the best guy not the guy who will be ready earliest. its not like the bills have an aging team and only has a window of two years to win a SB.

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 03:55 PM
How do you figure he will be better than any QB in this draft?? How do you know Losman will even get a chance to play next year or the year after?? Yes NFL experience is very important but it is not everything, alot of QB's have come in and been decent QB's in this league without alot of experience. Just because he rides the pine for a year doesnt mean is gonna be good or better then any QB coming out this year.

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 03:57 PM
sorry your right I should have known better than to question the all-knowing tom donahoe. oh wait if a few fin fans wanted losman then he must be awesome. some fin fans still want us to start jay but it doesnt change my opinion that he sucks.

leinart is proven he won a national championship and he couldnt have been drafted because he was a sophmore.

yes I know you tried to get henson had you offered more than dallas maybe just maybe houston would have traded him to you. yea he should be better next year but what about 3 years from now. like I said earlier if I was getting a franchise QB I would get the best guy not the guy who will be ready earliest. its not like the bills have an aging team and only has a window of two years to win a SB.
Well said...

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 04:00 PM
sorry your right I should have known better than to question the all-knowing tom donahoe. oh wait if a few fin fans wanted losman then he must be awesome. some fin fans still want us to start jay but it doesnt change my opinion that he sucks.

leinart is proven he won a national championship and he couldnt have been drafted because he was a sophmore.

yes I know you tried to get henson had you offered more than dallas maybe just maybe houston would have traded him to you. yea he should be better next year but what about 3 years from now. like I said earlier if I was getting a franchise QB I would get the best guy not the guy who will be ready earliest. its not like the bills have an aging team and only has a window of two years to win a SB.what is it that you don't get? Losman was eligible for draft, we took him. Those guys are still in college. Just like any qb's out of college, it is better to sit them and make them learn the first year before going out there the nest year.

3 years from now? Can you see that far? Who knows if Losman will or wil not be good 3 years from now. I don't think the bills want to wait and see til' 3 years from now and neither did your fins wait. They grabbed feely didn't they? Why didn't your fins wait til next year and use Fiedler in the mean time?

It's nice to see that you think Donahoe is "all knowing" since I don't think he is. :lol:

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 04:04 PM
They grabbed feely didn't they? Why didn't your fins wait til next year and use Fiedler in the mean time?
Why when your QB sucks why not put in the young guy to get experience....Yes you do learn and gain experience being in a system for the year, but you gain a whole lot more experience playing the actual game....I'm not sure how Bledsoe is doing right now, but if losman wasnt hurt and bledsoe was sucking ***, you would be cheering for them to throw losman in....yes Losman will be more experience than any rookie next year, but that doesnt make him a better QB(skill wise), what dont you understand about that!

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 04:11 PM
Why when your QB sucks why not put in the young guy to get experience....Yes you do learn and gain experience being in a system for the year, but you gain a whole lot more experience playing the actual game....I'm not sure how Bledsoe is doing right now, but if losman wasnt hurt and bledsoe was sucking ***, you would be cheering for them to throw losman in....yes Losman will be more experience than any rookie next year, but that doesnt make him a better QB(skill wise), what dont you understand about that!
ask the Giants , the Chargers and The Cowboys why they don't start their young qb's. Ask Joe Gibbs why he didn't start Ramsey over an aging Brunnel prior to his injury.

Why don't you wait and see if Rothlesberger is ready to face your D this Sunday?

Did I say Losman will be better skilled?

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 04:15 PM
Losman, was a good move considering there won't be a qb as good as he is in next years draft. Besides, 1 year of learning will benefit him and the bills should Drew be done by the years end.
I do believe that means that he will be better then any qb in next years draft:D

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 04:15 PM
what is it that you don't get? Losman was eligible for draft, we took him. Those guys are still in college. Just like any qb's out of college, it is better to sit them and make them learn the first year before going out there the nest year.

3 years from now? Can you see that far? Who knows if Losman will or wil not be good 3 years from now. I don't think the bills want to wait and see til' 3 years from now and neither did your fins wait. They grabbed feely didn't they? Why didn't your fins wait til next year and use Fiedler in the mean time?

It's nice to see that you think Donahoe is "all knowing" since I don't think he is. :lol:
you didnt just take him. you used a lot of picks to get him. if you had taken him with your own pick we wouldnt have been having this conversation.

what does the feeley trade have to do with this? are you saying just because our FO may have made a mistake its ok for yours to make the same one? Since yours a bills fan I guess i have to enlighten you.

the fins got feeley because we have an aging defense and just missed the playoffs the year before. the window for the phins is closing. if we had waited for a rookie to develop our D would be old by then. also the only QB avaliable when we picked was losman and we dont think too much of him.:D another reason the feeley comparasion isnt valid is because he has played in the league. thats why I used the henson comparision. both guys will sit for at least the first part of the season and both havent played in the league. your team gave up a lot more for a guy who was less highly regarded.

you guys were 6-10 and have a fairly young core. thats why you could have waited for a QB to develop.

from your posts it looked like you did think donahoe is all-knowing. sorry you bills fans confuse me sometimes.

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 04:22 PM
ask the Giants , the Chargers and The Cowboys why they don't start their young qb's. Ask Joe Gibbs why he didn't start Ramsey over an aging Brunnel prior to his injury.

Why don't you wait and see if Rothlesberger is ready to face your D this Sunday?

Did I say Losman will be better skilled?
giants- have a won a game with their veteran if they had lost again their would be calls for manning.

san diego- rivers didnt signed so late he is waaayy behind in knowing the offense.

cowboys- henson hasnt played football in years. vinny has thrown for over 300 yards in both games and again they have won a game.

redskins- payed a lot to get brunnell. they signed him to start not to hold a clipboard. again they want to win now and think with brunnell and portis they can do that.

is buffalo trying to win now? the bills were 6-10 last year and your only meaningful addidions were one linemen, and a rookie WR.your offense seems to be almost as bad as ours and you lost to jacksonville and oakland not exactly powerhouses. like djfresh said if losman wasnt hurt you guys would be telling the bills to start him.

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 04:32 PM
I do believe that means that he will be better then any qb in next years draft:D
after 1 yr experience, yes. He should be ready to be thrown in to the wolves compared ot any qb in the draft next year. Tell me one thing, why didn't the fins wait til' next year since there could be a qb in that draft better than Feely? :D

Justasportsfan
09-22-2004, 04:40 PM
giants- have a won a game with their veteran if they had lost again their would be calls for manning.

san diego- rivers didnt signed so late he is waaayy behind in knowing the offense.

cowboys- henson hasnt played football in years. vinny has thrown for over 300 yards in both games and again they have won a game.

redskins- payed a lot to get brunnell. they signed him to start not to hold a clipboard. again they want to win now and think with brunnell and portis they can do that.

is buffalo trying to win now? the bills were 6-10 last year and your only meaningful addidions were one linemen, and a rookie WR.your offense seems to be almost as bad as ours and you lost to jacksonville and oakland not exactly powerhouses. like djfresh said if losman wasnt hurt you guys would be telling the bills to start him.

What? Losman hasn't played with the first team compared to Drew. That kills your Rivers theory.

1-1 is not far from 0-2. That kills your, "they won 1 game" Why hasn't Feely been yanked in favor of Sage? Feely hasn't done squat in 1 1/2 games. Like I said, You are so eager to call Drew a bust and yet you fail to askyourself the same thing w/ your team.

You are now moving towards, the bills in comparison to the fins that wasn't part of the thread. Are the fins trying to win now? Do not assume that we would be crying for Losman to start. That is just stupid.

That would mean finfans are ready to throw in the towel and call for Sage to start.

Does it matter who played what? The Bengals aren't exactly powerhouses. KC lost 2 games (lost to Jags) , I guess it's time for them to throw in the towel.

VJ1252
09-22-2004, 05:02 PM
What? Losman hasn't played with the first team compared to Drew. That kills your Rivers theory.

1-1 is not far from 0-2. That kills your, "they won 1 game" Why hasn't Feely been yanked in favor of Sage? Feely hasn't done squat in 1 1/2 games. Like I said, You are so eager to call Drew a bust and yet you fail to askyourself the same thing w/ your team.

You are now moving towards, the bills in comparison to the fins that wasn't part of the thread. Are the fins trying to win now? Do not assume that we would be crying for Losman to start. That is just stupid.

That would mean finfans are ready to throw in the towel and call for Sage to start.


Does it matter who played what? The Bengals aren't exactly powerhouses. KC lost 2 games (lost to Jags) , I guess it's time for them to throw in the towel.
losman was in most camp unlike rivers. I guess that resurrects my rivers theory.

as for why hasnt feeley been yanked. we already benched our crappy veteran QB. now we are letting our young guy play in hopes that he will get better. also we are giving feeley a break because he didnt play with for us last year. didnt take all the snaps with the 1st team in TC. and has two players who have been here for about two weeks that he has barely played with. unlike bledsoe who led you guys to that terrific 6-10 record last year and only has 1 new WR to work with and has been working with him since april. also he has taken all the snaps with the 1st team in TC.

and in case you didnt notice some on this board are calling for feeley to be benched.

you started comparing the losman situation to feeley's. I simply refuted your arguements.

and the difference between 1-1 and 0-2 isnt that much but its hard to bench a QB after he won a game.

the chiefs shouldnt throw in the towel because they actually made the playoffs last year and they lost to two playoff teams.

CanadaPhinsFan
09-22-2004, 05:15 PM
after 1 yr experience, yes. He should be ready to be thrown in to the wolves compared ot any qb in the draft next year. Tell me one thing, why didn't the fins wait til' next year since there could be a qb in that draft better than Feely? :D
Ok, wait a second here. Isn't Losman out with a broken leg? What kind of experience is he getting right now? If he spends the whole year rehabbing his leg I don't see how that makes him any more experienced than a QB coming out of the draft.

FinfanInBuffalo
09-22-2004, 05:17 PM
Donohoe wasn't wrong and neither were you thinking that when Drew was lighting it up in 2002. If TD had a crystal ball that makes sure that a qb doesn't drop that fast then we'd be in the sb every year wouldn't we?

The fact is that Drew has had one good 8 game stretch since 1998.

Take a look at Drews numbers in his last 34 games in NE:

year team games cmp att % yds yds/att TD Int rating
1999 NE 16 305 539 56.6 3,985 7.39 19 21 75.6
2000 NE 16 312 531 58.8 3,291 6.20 17 13 77.3
2001 NE 2 40 66 60.6 400 6.06 2 2 75.3

He had good yardage in 1999 but his Ints were very high. 2000 brought in Belichick and a new style offense and Drew could not run it.

FinfanInBuffalo
09-22-2004, 05:21 PM
It's nice to see that you think Donahoe is "all knowing" since I don't think he is. :lol:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :egads: :egads:

Justa took a mini-shot at Donahoe?!?!?!?!

FlyingElvis
09-22-2004, 07:47 PM
The fact is that Drew has had one good 8 game stretch since 1998.

Take a look at Drews numbers in his last 34 games in NE:

year team games cmp att % yds yds/att TD Int rating
1999 NE 16 305 539 56.6 3,985 7.39 19 21 75.6
2000 NE 16 312 531 58.8 3,291 6.20 17 13 77.3
2001 NE 2 40 66 60.6 400 6.06 2 2 75.3

He had good yardage in 1999 but his Ints were very high. 2000 brought in Belichick and a new style offense and Drew could not run it.Right! That was exactly my point, thanks.

The Bills used a 1st round pick on a QB who hadn't been good in years. There was not ONE other team knocking on the Pats door offering a 1st round pick.

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 08:34 PM
why didn't the fins wait til' next year since there could be a qb in that draft better than Feely? :D
B/c our FO is a bunch a idiots....I'm not defending Miami's front office or any of there moves.... you are saying Losman was a great pick up after nothing...just b/c he is a bill....if the phins would have done that you would have been talking mad ****...

knight6jb
09-22-2004, 08:38 PM
Ok, wait a second here. Isn't Losman out with a broken leg? What kind of experience is he getting right now? If he spends the whole year rehabbing his leg I don't see how that makes him any more experienced than a QB coming out of the draft.

Very good point....where did this Bills homer go now.... I wanna hear this rebuttle

ChambersWI
09-22-2004, 09:15 PM
ok on JP Losman, let's clarify, it was a bad pick. Not saying Losman is bad(I actualy wanted Losman more than Rivers), but you gave up way to much to get him. Plus he would have been available in the 2nd round since no other team needed a QB. Losman is only a bad pick because of what was given up for him.

Just like Eddie Moore is a bad pick because of who else was available,m and the fact that we needed other things, and better LB's were available. Just like Wade Smith was a bad pi.... You know what? I'm just gonna say they only players we drafted that year that were good picks in terms of when they were drafted were Tolver,Jenkins, and Bell(he was a 1st day prospect up through is jr. year). Moore might turn out good(probably will, no one expected Zach Thomas to become an elite LB either), but there was other needs. Smith might get better, but he was a project, and the fact we helped the Pats get Dillon makes it worst. Whitley was a project too, and he was almost as bad as Smith against Cincy(they picked on Wade because of his last ditch "efforts" Whitely just went and helped St. Clair double team someone every play)

Bodzilla29
09-22-2004, 10:01 PM
Flying Elvis, why do you ignore my post? Can't admit when you messed up?

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 08:56 AM
The fact is that Drew has had one good 8 game stretch since 1998.

Take a look at Drews numbers in his last 34 games in NE:

year team games cmp att % yds yds/att TD Int rating
1999 NE 16 305 539 56.6 3,985 7.39 19 21 75.6
2000 NE 16 312 531 58.8 3,291 6.20 17 13 77.3
2001 NE 2 40 66 60.6 400 6.06 2 2 75.3

He had good yardage in 1999 but his Ints were very high. 2000 brought in Belichick and a new style offense and Drew could not run it.

Do you remember a guy named Ricky Williams? It was a great trade at that time wasn't it?

Why did Spielman trade a 2nd for a 3rd string qb? That's because he thought it was a great move at that time. Unlike Drew who made probowl in his 1st year , do you see Feely making probowl this year?

Drew may have declined but compared to what we had then ,he was definitely better than Van Pelt.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 08:59 AM
Right! That was exactly my point, thanks.

The Bills used a 1st round pick on a QB who hadn't been good in years. There was not ONE other team knocking on the Pats door offering a 1st round pick.You're so full of it, there were tons of Pats fans that came to our board congratulating us for landing Drew. When Drew was lighting it up the first half of the season everyone was saying a 1st pick was cheap for the nos. he put up. Like I said, it's easy to judge after the fact. Back then he was the elite qb available to us.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 09:00 AM
Ok, wait a second here. Isn't Losman out with a broken leg? What kind of experience is he getting right now? If he spends the whole year rehabbing his leg I don't see how that makes him any more experienced than a QB coming out of the draft.
Are you implying that Brady did not learn anything by standing on the sidelines behind Drew in his rookie year? :rolleyes:

FlyingElvis
09-23-2004, 09:57 AM
You're so full of it, there were tons of Pats fans that came to our board congratulating us for landing Drew.Oh please. Like it really matters what a "ton of Pats fans" think about the trade. Name me one other team that was offering the Pats a 1st round pick. Elite my a**. Get a clue.


Are you implying that Brady did not learn anything by standing on the sidelines behind Drew in his rookie year? :rolleyes:The qualities that Tom Brady possesses that makes him the successful QB that he is, were certainly not learned from Drew Bledsoe. Don't even go there, you will look foolish.

Fatherof25
09-23-2004, 10:20 AM
I dont know what u all are talkin about on this thread but that title was very harsh!!! LOL

3P
09-23-2004, 10:26 AM
I cleaned this out of the Wade Smith thread. We have forum for this sort of stuff, and I won't stand for fans of other teams overtaking legit threads. :shakeno:

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 10:47 AM
I cleaned this out of the Wade Smith thread. We have forum for this sort of stuff, and I won't stand for fans of other teams overtaking legit threads. :shakeno:I hope you weren't implyin it was me :D

FinfanInBuffalo
09-23-2004, 11:03 AM
Do you remember a guy named Ricky Williams? It was a great trade at that time wasn't it?

Why did Spielman trade a 2nd for a 3rd string qb? That's because he thought it was a great move at that time. Unlike Drew who made probowl in his 1st year , do you see Feely making probowl this year?

Drew may have declined but compared to what we had then ,he was definitely better than Van Pelt.

Those were the numbers put up by Bledose BEFORE the Bills traded for him. The point was that his decline was documented already. He was already past his prime. Donahoe made the trade hoping he would return to a form that he hadn't played at for over two years.

That is the difference with the RW trade. Ricky's numbers had been going up. Yards rushing, catches, yards receiving, yards per carry, and games played all increased in each of his first three years in the league. He was a player just hitting his prime. The Dolphins would have been happy with just an equal performance to his 2001 season. Instead, they got much more.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 11:38 AM
Those were the numbers put up by Bledose BEFORE the Bills traded for him. The point was that his decline was documented already. He was already past his prime. Donahoe made the trade hoping he would return to a form that he hadn't played at for over two years.

That is the difference with the RW trade. Ricky's numbers had been going up. Yards rushing, catches, yards receiving, yards per carry, and games played all increased in each of his first three years in the league. He was a player just hitting his prime. The Dolphins would have been happy with just an equal performance to his 2001 season. Instead, they got much more. even w/ declining numbers he was way better than Van Pelt and even went on to make probowl just like RW went on to lead the league. OUr situation coming from salaray cap hell and needing immediate help at qb promted TD to make the deal.

Did you see the nos. he put up when he first joined the bills? No one said he was declining when he broke Jim Kelly's record.

FinfanInBuffalo
09-23-2004, 12:17 PM
even w/ declining numbers he was way better than Van Pelt and even went on to make probowl just like RW went on to lead the league. OUr situation coming from salaray cap hell and needing immediate help at qb promted TD to make the deal.

Did you see the nos. he put up when he first joined the bills? No one said he was declining when he broke Jim Kelly's record.

Nothing changes the fact that at this point it looks like a bad trade.

Just because he was better than Van Pelt doesn't make him worth a first round pick and all the money he is making. The salary cap argument makes no sense. If you are up against the cap, why overpay for an aging QB?

Donahoe thought he would get more production from Bledsoe and he was wrong. He should have been able to see it coming.

I saw how well he played at first, but once the defenses adjusted and took away the long pass, he was unable to get anything done. Teams will continue to take away the long ball (we've already heard it from this coaching staff) and put pressure on Bledsoe. He has not shown the ability to make quick decisions under pressure. Until he does, he will be in trouble.

FlyingElvis
09-23-2004, 12:43 PM
I saw how well he played at first, but once the defenses adjusted and took away the long pass, he was unable to get anything done. Teams will continue to take away the long ball (we've already heard it from this coaching staff) and put pressure on Bledsoe. He has not shown the ability to make quick decisions under pressure. Until he does, he will be in trouble.Good analysis.

Bledsoe's game is taking a 7-step drop, and throwing the ball down the field 25 yards on a rope. He does this well. Except NFL defenses don't allow this anymore because Belichick showed the NFL how to beat it. Same goes for Warner who hasn't been the same QB since Super Bowl 36. The same would go for Manning as well, except Peyton has the cerebral aspect of playing the position that allows him to read a defense prior to the snap, counter Belichicks schemes with his own, and read his progressions after the snap. Bledsoe does not have this ability. The game has passed him by. He'll still win some games with his arm alone, even against a Belichick defense like he did last September. But thats a far cry from taking a team deep into the playoffs against one quality opponent after another, where turnovers are deadly.

With that said. The guy can still be an effective backup somewhere. But not before the Bills eat dead cap money and release him to a team willing to sign him to a backup salary. Not in NE though, we've had enough.

FinfanInBuffalo
09-23-2004, 01:07 PM
Good analysis.

Bledsoe's game is taking a 7-step drop, and throwing the ball down the field 25 yards on a rope. He does this well. Except NFL defenses don't allow this anymore because Belichick showed the NFL how to beat it. Same goes for Warner who hasn't been the same QB since Super Bowl 36. The same would go for Manning as well, except Peyton has the cerebral aspect of playing the position that allows him to read a defense prior to the snap, counter Belichicks schemes with his own, and read his progressions after the snap. Bledsoe does not have this ability. The game has passed him by. He'll still win some games with his arm alone, even against a Belichick defense like he did last September. But thats a far cry from taking a team deep into the playoffs against one quality opponent after another, where turnovers are deadly.

With that said. The guy can still be an effective backup somewhere. But not before the Bills eat dead cap money and release him to a team willing to sign him to a backup salary. Not in NE though, we've had enough.

Several QBs can still get the ball deep on defenses. Manning, Culpepper, Favre, etc. The difference is that those QBs force you to play them honest. If you always drop back into a two deep zone, they will pick you apart with the short stuff. Ultimately it becomes a guessing game that the offense wins sometimes and the defense wins sometimes. Bledsoe (or more accurately, the Bills offense) has not shown the ability to make the defense pay for the style that they are playing.

Buffalo fans were frustrated by Gilbrides seemingly mindless stubbornness to throw deep. Ultimately he may be proven correct, because it may be the only style offense that Drew has a chance in. The throws in short yardage situations may have been an attempt to give Drew a shot when the defense needs to play honest because of the down and distance.

The new coaching staff is foregoing those opportunities and they aren't any more effective because Drew must string together long drives to score and he hasn't been able to do that consistently.

Couple Drew's ineffectiveness in the short passing game and the offensive line's inability to give enough time to throw deep and you have problems.

Another observation I have about Bledsoe is that he doesn't seem to audible at the line very often. I've heard him say many, many times that the defense was in a cover two and they were taking away the long pass that was called. Can't he read that before the snap? Why not audible into another play that is more effective against the two deep zone? Why run that pattern at all? He also seems to look to that initial receiver anyway and that takes time that he cannot afford to take.

FlyingElvis
09-23-2004, 01:26 PM
Several QBs can still get the ball deep on defenses. Manning, Culpepper, Favre, etc. The difference is that those QBs force you to play them honest. Well, thats why I included Manning in my post. Mostly because I've seen him play more recently against good defenses (Pats, Titans). He can and will make you pay because he can improvise and adapt to what the defense is giving him. He killed the Pats in week 1 running James up the middle, when he correctly observed that the Pats were going to play a lot of nickel (in fairness, this was likely the gameplan, but he also audibled in some runs). I also included Manning because I wanted to avoid the topic of mobility, because thats not necessarily whats at issue here.


Couple Drew's ineffectiveness in the short passing game and the offensive line's inability to give enough time to throw deep and you have problems. Drew's short passing game has always been questionable. While in NE, he was very effective throwing to the TE (Coates) as a dump off pass if he got in trouble. Coates caught everything, even with 2 defenders drapped all over him. Or the occasional dump off to an uncovered FB (say Sam Gash). So, he could drop back, hone in on his primary receiver, and if covered, he'd dump it off to a single alternate receiver (again usually Coates). But they couldn't put RB or WR screens in or some of the other elaborate stuff that Weis runs, because he couldn't execute them.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 01:36 PM
Nothing changes the fact that at this point it looks like a bad trade.

.
Just like the Ricky Williams trade? Now that he's left and his mental issues that was foreseen back then has caught up with the fins, was it worth 2 1st rds. and a 4th? If you knew that Rw was gonna quit would you have traded for him for 2 seasons? That's what I meant by hindsight is 20/20. No one said it was a big mistake at that time. It was the biggest FA news that overshadowed the draft nd that the Pats could've gotten more for him but only the bills were in dire need of a solid qb. He was solid for half a season and 2 games last year ,just like RW was solid for 2 but at the price of 2 1st's and a 4th.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 01:41 PM
Well, thats why I included Manning in my post. Mostly because I've seen him play more recently against good defenses (Pats, Titans). He can and will make you pay because he can improvise and adapt to what the defense is giving him. He killed the Pats in week 1 running James up the middle, when he correctly observed that the Pats were going to play a lot of nickel (in fairness, this was likely the gameplan, but he also audibled in some runs). I also included Manning because I wanted to avoid the topic of mobility, because thats not necessarily whats at issue here.

Drew's short passing game has always been questionable. While in NE, he was very effective throwing to the TE (Coates) as a dump off pass if he got in trouble. Coates caught everything, even with 2 defenders drapped all over him. Or the occasional dump off to an uncovered FB (say Sam Gash). So, he could drop back, hone in on his primary receiver, and if covered, he'd dump it off to a single alternate receiver (again usually Coates). But they couldn't put RB or WR screens in or some of the other elaborate stuff that Weis runs, because he couldn't execute them.

we all know now that pressuring Drew is the way to stop him that's besides the point . It still doesn't account for your implication that the bills give away our draft picks which is what I reponded to in the 1st place. The only draft pick we gave away and got nothing in return is the Losman trade. That's it.

FinfanInBuffalo
09-23-2004, 01:51 PM
Just like the Ricky Williams trade? Now that he's left and his mental issues that was foreseen back then has caught up with the fins, was it worth 2 1st rds. and a 4th? If you knew that Rw was gonna quit would you have traded for him for 2 seasons? That's what I meant by hindsight is 20/20. No one said it was a big mistake at that time. It was the biggest FA news that overshadowed the draft nd that the Pats could've gotten more for him but only the bills were in dire need of a solid qb. He was solid for half a season and 2 games last year ,just like RW was solid for 2 but at the price of 2 1st's and a 4th.

Whatever....

If you want to ignore that at the time of the trades Ricky was producing and Drew was not, go ahead. I just believe that Drew's poor performance was more predictable than Ricky quiting.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 01:53 PM
Whatever....

If you want to ignore that at the time of the trades Ricky was producing and Drew was not, go ahead. I just believe that Drew's poor performance was more predictable than Ricky quiting.it ain't over is it. Drew could turn his game around but RW is gone. Kinda like your Wanny/Marv logic. :lol:

FinfanInBuffalo
09-23-2004, 01:57 PM
it ain't over is it. Drew could turn his game around but RW is gone. Kinda like your Wanny/Marv logic. :lol:

Thats why I've been careful to not say that he won't be able to adapt. Stranger things have happened. Sadly, I like Bledsoe and think he showed a lot of class when he lost his job to Brady. If he played on another team, I could actually root for him.

Ricky could also return and have his rights traded. The RW saga isn't over yet, but I don't believe he'll be a Dolphin again.

ltfinfan
09-23-2004, 01:59 PM
i was one of those ppl who thought the bills made a good trade. i was envious too. the only reason drew wasn't producing before he got traded was because he was hurt.
the one game they put him in after brady got hurt he looked really good in.

FlyingElvis
09-23-2004, 02:14 PM
Ok, I'm done bashing Bledsoe and wanted to end it with a positive about the man. Here's a quote from Brady yesterday:

Brady was asked what he most admired about Bills quarterback Drew Bledsoe. "He never makes excuses for anything," Brady said. "He gets right to it. I remember him jamming his thumb one game and going back in the game and playing, then playing the next week and hardly throwing a pass all week and went out and played a great game. He was extremely tough, very diligent. Football is very important in his life. I think you look at those qualities, and those are the type of things I really look to, I really admire, because to play 12 years, that's the type of commitment you need, and he certainly is a great example of that."

Thats true. He's a pro, no doubt about it. And I would much rather have my kid use Drew Bledsoe as a role model over a Terrell Owens any day, and twice on Sunday.

Finally, Justa, my original point from the Wade Smith discussion was that its seldom wise to pay the price to get a pick today by leveraging future picks. Its more likely to bite you in the a** like it did with Wade Smith (trading a future 2nd round pick for a 3rd on draft day) or the Bills trading a future #1 for Losman. Its not so much the trade of #1s thats so bad, its the other two picks you had to throw in to entice Parcells to make the deal. Teams that accumulate picks can build depth and carry out a long-term plan. But this philosophy runs counter to teams that have FO personnel on the hot seat.

I'm done! Feel free to counter-point. :)

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 02:17 PM
Thats why I've been careful to not say that he won't be able to adapt. Stranger things have happened. Sadly, I like Bledsoe and think he showed a lot of class when he lost his job to Brady. If he played on another team, I could actually root for him.

Ricky could also return and have his rights traded. The RW saga isn't over yet, but I don't believe he'll be a Dolphin again.Yup, he's a class act.

Things is, he's been under Gilbride for 2 yrs. and under Mularkey for 2 games. While Mularkey has been able to turn qb's carreer around , it's not looking good for Drew but in fairness, 2 games is not enough time to judge him. He was Dilferlike in the first game and back to his old habits of holding on to the ball in the 2nd. I still believe he will have awsome games but not on a consistent basis.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 02:21 PM
Finally, Justa, my original point from the Wade Smith discussion was that its seldom wise to pay the price to get a pick today by leveraging future picks. Its more likely to bite you in the a** like it did with Wade Smith (trading a future 2nd round pick for a 3rd on draft day) or the Bills trading a future #1 for Losman. Its not so much the trade of #1s thats so bad, its the other two picks you had to throw in to entice Parcells to make the deal. Teams that accumulate picks can build depth and carry out a long-term plan. But this philosophy runs counter to teams that have FO personnel on the hot seat.

I'm done! Feel free to counter-point. :)I see your point however, we traded our future draft for our future qb. We didn't just trade it away for a has been or a stop gap.

Another thing is, it may very well be that Donohoe is hoping that he could do the same he did with Price if Henry and Mcgahee turn out to be elite rb's and he can recoup that 1st pick be trading 1 of them. Is that likely so? I don't know but it is a possibility.

FinfanInBuffalo
09-23-2004, 02:49 PM
Yup, he's a class act.

Things is, he's been under Gilbride for 2 yrs. and under Mularkey for 2 games. While Mularkey has been able to turn qb's carreer around , it's not looking good for Drew but in fairness, 2 games is not enough time to judge him. He was Dilferlike in the first game and back to his old habits of holding on to the ball in the 2nd. I still believe he will have awsome games but not on a consistent basis.

If he doesn't turn it around, the bigger question for Donahoe is, "What did you see in 2003 that made you believe he should be back for 2004?" Why pay him the roster bonus? Why not go after one of the other veteran QBs? They could have gotten rid of Bledsoe with a minimal cap hit. He chose to keep Bledsoe. If Bledsoe doesn't work out, Donahoe is guilty of making the same mistake twice.

Justasportsfan
09-23-2004, 03:56 PM
If he doesn't turn it around, the bigger question for Donahoe is, "What did you see in 2003 that made you believe he should be back for 2004?" Why pay him the roster bonus? Why not go after one of the other veteran QBs? They could have gotten rid of Bledsoe with a minimal cap hit. He chose to keep Bledsoe. If Bledsoe doesn't work out, Donahoe is guilty of making the same mistake twice.nope it would've been a huge cap hit.I'm not sure but the buy out clause was 4 million. Don't quote me on that.

However, getting rid of drew would send out a message to the entire FA's...stay away.

Remember, Mularkey thinks he can fix Drew and even Wyche said Drew isn't done.

Drew would also make a great mentor for Losman. Ask Brady.