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View Full Version : 2005 FinHeaven Salary Cap Chart UPDATED



Muck
02-06-2005, 03:41 PM
Have at it. :cool:

http://www.finheaven.com/seasonal/salaries.php

NJPHINFAN
02-06-2005, 03:45 PM
can I be the first to say renegotiate or good bye to David Boston?

NJPHINFAN
02-06-2005, 03:47 PM
and can I also say a hearty "see ya later" to Mr. Arturo Freeman?

DaMiAmIDoLpHiNz
02-06-2005, 03:57 PM
Sheesh I never realized Fiedler was so darn expensive!:eek: Get him the heck outta here!

Birdman
02-06-2005, 04:18 PM
Moa...LoL

miamikid92
02-06-2005, 04:20 PM
can I be the first to say renegotiate or good bye to David Boston?
its been said many times many ways..get rid of boston oo0o0o

Muck
02-06-2005, 04:22 PM
Sheesh I never realized Fiedler was so darn expensive!:eek: Get him the heck outta here!

He had no takers on the trade market. So Wanny and Rick gave him a big raise. :up:

NaboCane
02-06-2005, 04:32 PM
Muck: I want you to know that the work you guys put into maintaining this is very much appreciated.

DolfanDaveInATX
02-06-2005, 04:38 PM
I predict that by the end of the month, Miami will be at least $10 million under the salary cap.

RELEASE: Fiedler, Konrad, McIntosh, Seau, Freeman

RESTRUCTURE OR RELEASE: Boston, Thompson, D. Bowens

TRADE: Surtain

JUNE 1 CUT: T. Bowens (that cap savings is what we'll use to extend McMichael)

We may also restructure Marty Booker if we can't clear enough room otherwise, but I don't see any chance of him not being in a Miami uniform in 2005.

DaMiAmIDoLpHiNz
02-06-2005, 05:38 PM
He had no takers on the trade market. So Wanny and Rick gave him a big raise. :up:
Lol! Yeah but the only way I see Feidler staying is if he takes a big fat pay cut which i doubt will happen

Lights_Out
02-06-2005, 06:57 PM
Ears,konrad,freeman,SEE-YA......restructure seau,bowens,booker or boston.,......rsign Mcmike but not to more than Crumpler not even close

unifiedtheory
02-07-2005, 12:50 AM
The cuts are easy:

Fiedler: 6.125
Konrad: .645
Freeman: 2.812
Seau: 2.846
Jay Williams: .595
Greg Jerman: .455

Total: 13.478 million

Trading Surtain clears 5.454 million. That gets the Dolphins 7 million under the cap (by my rough calculations) without renegotiating anyone. Renegotiating the whole recieving corp, Tim Bo, Damion McKintosh, David Bowens should clear off a whole lot more space.

We are not in great cap shape but, we can get under by cutting dead wood. Most teams have to cut important starters...I think it is not as bad as people are saying.

Nublar7
02-07-2005, 01:03 AM
Wow, if these figures are 100% accurate, cutting Fiedler will clear more then half of the space we need. So much for being in Cap Hell.

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 01:40 AM
:foundout:

Surferosa
02-07-2005, 02:23 AM
Good job as ususal Clumpy.

Trading Surtain and cutting Fiedler should make us about even. Parting ways with any combination of Freemen, Seau, Timbo Boston and Booker should put us well below.

Of course we will have to fill those positions (DT, LB, FS) with new players, but I reckon its Sabans plan to rebuild through the draft.

Surferosa
02-07-2005, 02:24 AM
Clump,

When do they decide if the salary cap will be raised? And how much do you see them raising it?

Aqua and Orange
02-07-2005, 02:30 AM
Oof! Get rid of Fiedler and all the rest of the dead weight! Something tells me that in a year or two we will be the youngest team in the league, which works for me.
Looking at all of these guys who are going to be gone just shows me how Surtain WILL go, and WILL go for draft picks.

Lazy1
02-07-2005, 02:34 AM
I dont see why we should cut boston... he is a relatively low cap figure and would cost us more to cut him than keep him. Might as well just keep him, you wont be able to find a Wr with that much talent for what we are paying boston.

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 03:15 AM
Clump,

When do they decide if the salary cap will be raised? And how much do you see them raising it?

We will all know what the unadjusted cap number will be in the couple of weeks. The cap adjustments are not released to the public, but there are a few people who have access and distribute them. I wouldn't be surprised to see significant info about cap related issues begin to be released this week.

Estimate on the unadjusted cap is between $85.5-$86.5 million

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 03:17 AM
I dont see why we should cut boston... he is a relatively low cap figure and would cost us more to cut him than keep him. Might as well just keep him, you wont be able to find a Wr with that much talent for what we are paying boston.

His cap number is over $3 million. He has steroid problems and a history of a bad attitude......release him and say if you want to stay with us....vets minimum. However, IMHO, he's a ticking time bomb.

BigDogsHunt
02-07-2005, 12:57 PM
Have at it. :cool:

http://www.finheaven.com/seasonal/salaries.phpMuck -

Why is Konrad's, Seau's, and Freeman's dead cap higher after 6/1? I thought after 6/1 dead cap is spead out and therefore lower????

Eshlemon
02-07-2005, 01:01 PM
Sheesh I never realized Fiedler was so darn expensive!:eek: Get him the heck outta here!

What, Jay's not worth the 4th highest QB salary?

Eshlemon
02-07-2005, 01:15 PM
His cap number is over $3 million. He has steroid problems and a history of a bad attitude......release him and say if you want to stay with us....vets minimum. However, IMHO, he's a ticking time bomb.

Agree Clump...only way Saban allows Boston into camp is if he restructures big time. Besides, Boston will probably only be with us for 2005 anyway. He's scheduled to make 5 million in salary next year. Don't think Saban will restructure a longterm contract extension in 2006, which DB will want if he was kept and did well in 2005. Why give a roster spot to a player not in the teams future plans?

Expect Saban to make a lot of unpopular cuts/trades over the next 12-14 months.

Ohio Fanatic
02-07-2005, 01:21 PM
and can I also say a hearty "see ya later" to Mr. Arturo Freeman?
Disagree with you on BOston, but I didn't realize how much Freeman costs us. Dump him. Damn he's expensive for his talent level. I wish we could cut Mare without taking such a big hit. He's the 2nd most overpaid guy on the team behind Fiedler.

clajoie_7
02-07-2005, 01:21 PM
Good God we overpay people...

ZachThomas54
02-07-2005, 01:56 PM
I agree that Miami overpays a lot of players on this team. it's no wonder why everyone wants to play for Miami. they take care of you in Miami

Dol-Fan Dupree
02-07-2005, 02:34 PM
Freeman signed a back loaded contract. It is not like Miami paid Freeman 3 million a year. It was understood when he signed this contract that he will have to renegotiate to stay on the team.

finswin56
02-07-2005, 03:54 PM
Thanks Clumpy!


Yesterday, some idiot on sports radio down here was saying how he thinks we'll cut or trade Surtain, Madison, and Zach. And, how he think Sam and Pat will both be in Green Bay this year b/c of Bates.
How in the world are these dumb a*@$! allowed on the radio? Better yet, who pays these guys?

Da 'Fins
02-07-2005, 04:59 PM
I predict that by the end of the month, Miami will be at least $10 million under the salary cap.

RELEASE: Fiedler, Konrad, McIntosh, Seau, Freeman

RESTRUCTURE OR RELEASE: Boston, Thompson, D. Bowens

TRADE: Surtain

JUNE 1 CUT: T. Bowens (that cap savings is what we'll use to extend McMichael)

We may also restructure Marty Booker if we can't clear enough room otherwise, but I don't see any chance of him not being in a Miami uniform in 2005.

I appreciate the cap work on this site, but the Herald has Miami at $102 Million and $17 million over - not the $11 Million over figure on this site. $1 Million of that difference is in cap estimates ($85 versus $86 Million). But that's still a big discrepancy. They get their estimates from the NFL Players Association.

This is the site:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/10586490.htm

Samphin
02-07-2005, 05:23 PM
I don't understand why many of you want to cut both Boston and Booker? That would leave us with Chambers and not much else. Booker deserves to stay and Boston will most likely renegotiate. His "steroid" test that he failed wasn't even due to steroids. When healthy, he is great. We gave up next to nothing for him and if we can have him back cheap, I say keep him.

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 05:37 PM
Muck -

Why is Konrad's, Seau's, and Freeman's dead cap higher after 6/1? I thought after 6/1 dead cap is spead out and therefore lower????


That column accounts for signing bonus amortization. When a player signs a long term deal, the signing bonus is spread out over the length of the deal (limit of 5 yrs starting in 2005). If the player is released after 6/1, then only one yr of bonus counts on 2005 and ALL remaining yrs count on 2006.

In Freeman's case, it's assumed that the $300,000 roster bonus is due prior to 6/1 and is paid, thus if he's released after 6/1, it counts on the 2005 cap as dead cap.

Da 'Fins
02-07-2005, 05:38 PM
His cap number is over $3 million. He has steroid problems and a history of a bad attitude......release him and say if you want to stay with us....vets minimum. However, IMHO, he's a ticking time bomb.

He has to be cut given his injury history, the size of his cap #, the somewhat desparate need Miami has to get under the cap, his off-field problems, etc. And, he doesn't have his security blanket in Jerry Sullivan anymore.

I also noted this in another post, but what do you think about the Herald article that has the Dolphins cap # at $102 Million (according to the NFLPA)?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/10586490.htm

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 05:50 PM
It means that I'm missing some things on the cap page :D

Eshlemon
02-07-2005, 06:24 PM
I appreciate the cap work on this site, but the Herald has Miami at $102 Million and $17 million over - not the $11 Million over figure on this site. $1 Million of that difference is in cap estimates ($85 versus $86 Million). But that's still a big discrepancy. They get their estimates from the NFL Players Association.

This is the site:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/10586490.htm


Actually Clumpy's right and the Herald's wrong. NFL teams only count the top 51 cap hits from the beginning of free agency (3/1) to opening day. Currently for the Dolphins after the top 51...11 players at 305,000 and 7 players at 230,000. Clumpy has those players listed but doesn't have them counting against the cap, which they don't.
This allows teams to bring all those extra guys into camp during the preseason.

VanDolPhan
02-07-2005, 06:27 PM
Actually Clumpy's right and the Herald's wrong. NFL teams only count the top 51 cap hits from the beginning of free agency (3/1) to opening day. Currently for the Dolphins after the top 51...11 players at 305,000 and 7 players at 230,000. Clumpy has those players listed but doesn't have them counting against the cap, which they don't.
This allows teams to bring all those extra guys into camp during the preseason.

Yup he's got it.

Plus Chambers #'s can be manipulated via a few tricks to save some dough if we need it for an FA signing.

Brad528
02-07-2005, 06:40 PM
Who in the Hell ever gave Fiedler that much Fing money. He is one of the highest paid players on our team

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 07:03 PM
Who in the Hell ever gave Fiedler that much Fing money. He is one of the highest paid players on our team


Rick Spielman :roflmao:

MiamiFan1354
02-07-2005, 07:39 PM
He's a goner, thank god!!

Da 'Fins
02-07-2005, 08:42 PM
Yup he's got it.

Plus Chambers #'s can be manipulated via a few tricks to save some dough if we need it for an FA signing.

Did you read the Herald article? They have the Chambers issue in there as well. It really is not the issue - if the Herald is correct, then their analysis (which includes the Chambers manipulation) only gets the fins under by about $2 million - enough to handle the draft, but not much if at all for free agency.

Da 'Fins
02-07-2005, 08:46 PM
Actually Clumpy's right and the Herald's wrong. NFL teams only count the top 51 cap hits from the beginning of free agency (3/1) to opening day. Currently for the Dolphins after the top 51...11 players at 305,000 and 7 players at 230,000. Clumpy has those players listed but doesn't have them counting against the cap, which they don't.
This allows teams to bring all those extra guys into camp during the preseason.

I know that - it's been pretty common knowledge for a few years - in fact, I've read that in the Herald several times. The question is - how do you know the Herald is counting those players against the cap - since no one does? And, I don't see the NFLPA doing this either - since it's a non-factor as far as the league rules are concerned.

It may be true, and the numbers roughly work out - but do you have evidence that this is what the Herald has done or is it an assumption?

JTBRLZ
02-07-2005, 08:47 PM
Which pasrt counts against the cap? Salary Cap?

J Tes
02-07-2005, 09:46 PM
Muck: I want you to know that the work you guys put into maintaining this is very much appreciated.
butt kisser :D . Just kidding

Eshlemon
02-07-2005, 09:51 PM
I know that - it's been pretty common knowledge for a few years - in fact, I've read that in the Herald several times. The question is - how do you know the Herald is counting those players against the cap - since no one does? And, I don't see the NFLPA doing this either - since it's a non-factor as far as the league rules are concerned.

It may be true, and the numbers roughly work out - but do you have evidence that this is what the Herald has done or is it an assumption?

You are correct, I should have made my statement as an assumption of an error by the Herald and not fact. The numbers closely work out and I just trust Clumpy more than anything the Herald puts out.

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 10:14 PM
You are correct, I should have made my statement as an assumption of an error by the Herald and not fact. The numbers closely work out and I just trust Clumpy more than anything the Herald puts out.


Stop it, you're making me blush! :cool:

Eshlemon
02-07-2005, 10:27 PM
Sorry, Clumpy.

I also emailed Jason Cole directly to try and find out if his numbers are from all contracts or top 51. Wanted to know because like Da'Fins said, that 5 million difference is huge.

Clumpy
02-07-2005, 10:35 PM
Sorry, Clumpy.

I also emailed Jason Cole directly to try and find out if his numbers are from all contracts or top 51. Wanted to know because like Da'Fins said, that 5 million difference is huge.


I suspect probably that I'm missing some roster bonuses and/or LTBE incentives as well the fact he may not be adjusting for top 51. Some combination

Eshlemon
02-07-2005, 11:30 PM
I suspect probably that I'm missing some roster bonuses and/or LTBE incentives as well the fact he may not be adjusting for top 51. Some combination

After further reveiw, don't think my top 51 defense of the FinHeaven cap page will hold up. The article was posted on January 7th, before most (if not all) of those 17 non-51 guys were even signed. If Jason Cole responds with any more info on bonuses I'll let you know.

:dunce:

Muck
02-08-2005, 01:44 AM
It wouldn't be the first time we've made a mistake. But it wouldn't be the first time the Herald was wrong on the cap either. Actually, we've been right more than they have. Either way, the cap page will become more accurate as the offseason wears on.

Rich22
02-08-2005, 01:57 AM
His cap number is over $3 million. He has steroid problems and a history of a bad attitude......release him and say if you want to stay with us....vets minimum. However, IMHO, he's a ticking time bomb.
I know not many people may agree but IF (big IF) he is healthy he is one of the best WR's in the game hands down. IF his weight stays to where it was last year he is one of the fastest and biggest receivers on the field - too tough to cover. HIs problem has been getting too big and staying healthy. During camp the reports were guys were stopping to watch him he was that good. How can you cut him unless you were saving big $. 3M/yr for a #1 WR is very cheap. I say you have to give him another year - it buys you nothing to get rid of him and the upside is scary. Chambers is not at this guys level if he is healthy - he just tore up the league back in Arizona when healthy. And he had Jake throwing to him on one of the worst teams in the league. I'd love to see what he could do if healthy - from what they said nobody worked harder.

PHINSfan
02-08-2005, 01:58 AM
With Clumpy, Muck, and Boomer I trust FinHeaven a lot more than i do Cole and the Herald.
Keep up the great work guys!!!

Phin_Phan
02-08-2005, 02:35 AM
Fiedler makes WAY too much money, he's the first guy we need to go!

Phinsfan1980
02-08-2005, 02:59 AM
and can I also say a hearty "see ya later" to Mr. Arturo Freeman?Yeah what the heck has he done to deserve that kind of money??:eek:

Philter25
02-08-2005, 10:04 AM
.... Vernon Carey better start this year.

Good job as usual Clump.

BigDogsHunt
02-08-2005, 11:41 AM
He's a goner, thank god!!
He's = Fiedler and Spielman.....:roflmao:

Eshlemon
02-08-2005, 09:35 PM
Jason Cole responded. Herald counts all players, doesn't use top 51 until March 2. Don't know if this affects the FinHeaven vs Herald debate anymore.

Muck
02-08-2005, 09:41 PM
Jason Cole responded. Herald counts all players, doesn't use top 51 until March 2. Don't know if this affects the FinHeaven vs Herald debate anymore.

It does indeed make a difference. I'm not sure how much so or how many players he was counting (as I cannot do the calculations here at work :couch: ). But after 51 players, it makes a difference.

Clumpy
02-09-2005, 12:22 AM
My numbers use top 51 rule

Justasportsfan
02-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Somebody get Clumpy and fins Jersey, quick. I think he wants a Feely jersey.

NLude33
02-09-2005, 12:06 PM
Somebody get Clumpy and fins Jersey, quick. I think he wants a Feely jersey.
Of course he does, Feeley throws to Buffalo players better than Bledsoe does!

Clumpy
02-10-2005, 01:03 AM
Somebody get Clumpy and fins Jersey, quick. I think he wants a Feely jersey.


Are you gonna be at the Bills season opener?


clump:whip2:justa

Merman
02-10-2005, 08:32 AM
My numbers use top 51 rule

Why don't you give a better explanation???
:confused:

jtsacksyou
02-10-2005, 11:37 PM
Clumpy I added up your calculations with a calculator and got 16761628, idk if maybe i added the wrong things together, but thats what the salary plus the bonus and the amortizaton add up to then add the dead cap then subtract the projected cap. let me know if i missed something.

alopez34
02-11-2005, 12:02 AM
Clumpy great work yes you are a phins fan no way ud waste all that time on a team u dont like. p.s. restructure chambers he counts 7 mill against the cap. give him the league min and make the rest some sort of bonus that could clear a ton of room. If fielder is a phin next year he better be a bench warmer. stick a heating pad on his rear and he can move down the bench

Ruderic
02-11-2005, 12:07 AM
Clumpy great work yes you are a phins fan no way ud waste all that time on a team u dont like. p.s. restructure chambers he counts 7 mill against the cap. give him the league min and make the rest some sort of bonus that could clear a ton of room. If fielder is a phin next year he better be a bench warmer. stick a heating pad on his rear and he can move down the bench
Chambers just signed so he cannot be restructured.

Fiedler is as good as gone.

Nublar7
02-11-2005, 01:10 AM
Chambers just signed so he cannot be restructured.

Fiedler is as good as gone.Chambers can still restructure.

Philter25
02-11-2005, 10:07 AM
Chambers just signed so he cannot be restructured.

Fiedler is as good as gone.Says who?

Superself
02-11-2005, 10:53 AM
Clumpy great work yes you are a phins fan no way ud waste all that time on a team u dont like. p.s. restructure chambers he counts 7 mill against the cap. give him the league min and make the rest some sort of bonus that could clear a ton of room. If fielder is a phin next year he better be a bench warmer. stick a heating pad on his rear and he can move down the bench


Chambers isn't worth what we are paying him. I can't believe he gets paid that amount of money! This guy is living off of potential and if he doesn't perform this year, he needs to get traded.

tay0365
02-11-2005, 11:55 AM
:foundout:


:lol:

Ruderic
02-12-2005, 01:46 AM
It is my understanding that no one can restructure a deal for 12 months. (Unless this only applies to restructuring...as in you can't restructure a restructured contract for 12 months).

feelthepain
02-12-2005, 01:54 AM
Can we keep Fiedler and his 9.1 million cap hit?

Clumpy
02-12-2005, 02:42 AM
Can we keep Fiedler and his 9.1 million cap hit?



No way

Clumpy
02-12-2005, 02:45 AM
It is my understanding that no one can restructure a deal for 12 months. (Unless this only applies to restructuring...as in you can't restructure a restructured contract for 12 months).


There are a number of rules regarding restructuring. However, I've also always thought a player could only restructure once in 12 months.....it may be only once per League Year. Team needs cap space during season, player restructures during season, but then the next cap year, player can restructure again....

miamirw
02-12-2005, 03:09 AM
not to be redundant or repetitive, but what's the bottom line on the cap number here?

We've made the determination that the Finheaven number of 11 million over the cap is correct and the Herald is wrong (because it counted players #52 and #53), correct?

miamirw
02-12-2005, 03:15 AM
Cut:

Fiedler - 6.1
Seau - 2.8
DBowens - 1.3
Konrad - .6
_______________
Total - 11.8

Gets us where we need to be. Then the restructures and the Surtain trade free up money for FA:


Restructure/Trade:
Freeman - (save) 1.4
Boston - (save) 1.5
Surtain - 5.5
________________
Total: - 8.4 to spend

Is that about right?

Clumpy
02-12-2005, 04:13 AM
not to be redundant or repetitive, but what's the bottom line on the cap number here?

We've made the determination that the Finheaven number of 11 million over the cap is correct and the Herald is wrong (because it counted players #52 and #53), correct?



Until the unadjusted salary cap number and cap adjustments become available, the speculation will continue. $12-15 million over is a safe range

Eshlemon
02-12-2005, 04:54 AM
Why does Chamber's contract have to be restructured? Can't we prorate the bonus money when it's paid, saving 4 million on the cap?

Clumpy
02-12-2005, 05:12 AM
Why does Chamber's contract have to be restructured? Can't we prorate the bonus money when it's paid, saving 4 million on the cap?



Converting the roster bonus to signing bonus is still considered a restructuring

SABA-TOOTH
02-12-2005, 05:29 AM
It Is Still Signing A New Deal For Cap Space

popularwar
02-12-2005, 10:44 AM
Why wasn't Greenwood included in this?

Clumpy
02-12-2005, 10:56 AM
Why wasn't Greenwood included in this?


He's not on the cap page because he's an unrestricted FA. No FAs, regardless of which type, is on the page until they are either re-signed or tendered

Fin Fan in Cali
02-12-2005, 08:49 PM
He's not on the cap page because he's an unrestricted FA. No FAs, regardless of which type, is on the page until they are either re-signed or tenderedHey Clumpy I need your insight. If you go to www.foxsports.com (http://www.foxsports.com) and look the Dolphins, they are saying that Surtain may not be the only one to be traded. They are saying that Madison could go as well with only 180,000 hit against the cap. This can't be right Clumpy? My understanding that due to his contract we would take a big cap hit. Please shed some light on this.
Thanks!:beerbang:

Clumpy
02-13-2005, 12:36 AM
Hey Clumpy I need your insight. If you go to www.foxsports.com (http://www.foxsports.com) and look the Dolphins, they are saying that Surtain may not be the only one to be traded. They are saying that Madison could go as well with only 180,000 hit against the cap. This can't be right Clumpy? My understanding that due to his contract we would take a big cap hit. Please shed some light on this.
Thanks!:beerbang:


I'm at work......give me a few minutes to crunch the numbers on my slide rule :tongue:

Fin Fan in Cali
02-13-2005, 01:55 AM
I'm at work......give me a few minutes to crunch the numbers on my slide rule :tongue:Thanks Clumpy! You are alright for a Bills fan!:)

Fin Fan in Cali
02-13-2005, 02:02 AM
I'm at work......give me a few minutes to crunch the numbers on my slide rule :tongue:Clumpy if you ever make it out here on the Left coast, beers are on me!:xii:

Eshlemon
02-13-2005, 02:48 AM
Converting the roster bonus to signing bonus is still considered a restructuring

When Chambers signed his 6 yr/30 million contract it included a 12 million dollar signing bonus. Was under impression this years 5 million bonus was the 2nd installment of the signing bonus, which was broken up for salary cap reasons. If the 1rst signing bonus payment was prorated, we should be able to prorate the 2nd installment.

Late and tired. Will try to verify everything I said from memory asap.

Clumpy
02-13-2005, 03:03 AM
Jason Cole sez it will cost an additional $180,000, my numbers say $1,294,645. I have adjusted for the top 51 rule, he likely has not. So, add $305,000 to his number and you get $485,000. $1,294,645 - $485,000 = $809,645 further difference. That's a few dollars short of $270,000/yr remaining on Madison's deal. It is likely due to bonus amortization discrepancies. Who's more accurate? I would like to believe that I am but that could also be wishful thinking.

I'll check into this more when I get home from work :D

Clumpy
02-13-2005, 03:07 AM
When Chambers signed his 6 yr/30 million contract it included a 12 million dollar signing bonus. Was under impression this years 5 million bonus was the 2nd installment of the signing bonus, which was broken up for salary cap reasons. If the 1rst signing bonus payment was prorated, we should be able to prorate the 2nd installment.

Late and tired. Will try to verify everything I said from memory asap.


Information I have was $5.5 million signing bonus over 6 yrs with $500,000 roster bonus in 2004 and $5 million roster in 2005. That's $11 million guaranteed.

Link to your info?

Eshlemon
02-13-2005, 03:51 AM
Information I have was $5.5 million signing bonus over 6 yrs with $500,000 roster bonus in 2004 and $5 million roster in 2005. That's $11 million guaranteed.

Link to your info?

Looked up info and you're correct, the 5 million is listed a roster bonus. But while searching did find some information on roster bonuses which could help the Dolphins. This site states a guaranteed roster bonus is treated as a signing bonus.

www.afl.atfreeweb.com/AFL/NFL%20Salary%20Cap%20101.htm

Don't know if site is credible, ever heard of Ron Del Duca?

Edit: Also found some good info at nflpa.com, Collective Bargaining Agreement, page 103:
"* For the purposes of the Salary Cap and Entering Player Pool, any roster or reporting bonus which is earned or paid before the start of the Club's pre-season training camp shall be treated as a signing bonus."

This should give Saban the option of freeing up Chambers money w/o having to restructure...4 million Miami needs badly.

Merman
02-13-2005, 03:53 AM
Jason Cole sez it will cost an additional $180,000, my numbers say $1,294,645. I have adjusted for the top 51 rule, he likely has not. So, add $305,000 to his number and you get $485,000. $1,294,645 - $485,000 = $809,645 further difference. That's a few dollars short of $270,000/yr remaining on Madison's deal. It is likely due to bonus amortization discrepancies. Who's more accurate? I would like to believe that I am but that could also be wishful thinking.

I'll check into this more when I get home from work :D

A little harried at work??? Maybe we should add the $305k to your amount since you subtracted it and then subtract Cole's figure???

Needless exercise as that $180k figure has to be a typo error. Here is something that Cole wrote on the sugject.



Q.

What's the comparison of dead cap $'s for 2005 for trading Madison vs. Surtain?
Doug Thews, Colleyville, TX 2/07/05

A.

Surtain is $2.1 million. Madison would be about $3 million
Jason Cole 2/07/05

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/qa_forum.htm?forumId=324&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=17

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team?statsId=15

Fantasy news in the lower left corner of the page.

Clumpy
02-13-2005, 04:21 AM
Madison has much more than $3 million dead cap

Merman
02-13-2005, 04:25 AM
This should give Saban the option of freeing up Chambers money w/o having to restructure...4 million Miami needs badly.

What are you so worried about guaranteeing a roster bonus and calling it a restructure???

Eshlemon
02-13-2005, 04:44 AM
What are you so worried about guaranteeing a roster bonus and calling it a restructure???

Chambers current deal can't restructure until 8/5/2005. Teams are required to wait a year after contract was signed before changes can be made in contract.
However, if CC's 5 million roster bonus can be prorated by 3/2, that would give us 4 million in cap savings. A big help to our current cap situation.

Clumpy
02-13-2005, 06:58 AM
Chambers current deal can't restructure until 8/5/2005. Teams are required to wait a year after contract was signed before changes can be made in contract.
However, if CC's 5 million roster bonus can be prorated by 3/2, that would give us 4 million in cap savings. A big help to our current cap situation.



It's more likely once per League Year, however, Chambers signed an extension, he didn't restructure, so your argument Eshlemon does not apply IMO.

Merman
02-13-2005, 10:40 AM
Chambers current deal can't restructure until 8/5/2005. Teams are required to wait a year after contract was signed before changes can be made in contract.
However, if CC's 5 million roster bonus can be prorated by 3/2, that would give us 4 million in cap savings. A big help to our current cap situation.

The general rule is a contract can be renegotiated at any time with certain exceptions and these are the main three exceptions:

1. A rookie contract cannot be renegotiated for one year or until August 1st of the next year whichever is later.

2. A veteran player cannot renegotiate to increase salary for one year. A veteran can renegotiate to reduce salary at anytime.

3. RFAs cannot renegotiate to reduce salary with a new club until after the trading deadline in that league year.

Guaranteeing a bonus and prorating it is not increasing salary. It is done every year. The most notable recent example of a Dolphin guaranteeing his roster bonus in the second year is Zach Thomas.


Section 9. Renegotiations and Extensions: Provided that all Salary Cap requirements are met, Player Contracts for current and future years may be renegotiated and/or extended except as follows:

(a) The contract of a Veteran Player may not be renegotiated to increase the Salary to be paid to the player during the original terms of the contract for a period of twelve months after the player’s most recent contract renegotiation. The first renegotiation of a Veteran Player Contract, however, may take place at any time.

(b) No Team and player may agree to renegotiate any term of a previously signed Player Contract for a prior League Year.

(c) No contract renegotiations may be done for a current season after the last regular season game of that season.

(d) A Player Contract signed by a Rookie may not be renegotiated except as provided in Article XVII (Entering Player Pool), Section 4(f).

slimschmittie
02-13-2005, 11:15 PM
It's more likely once per League Year, however, Chambers signed an extension, he didn't restructure, so your argument Eshlemon does not apply IMO.




ya w/e. go bills

J Tes
02-13-2005, 11:21 PM
Why does Chamber's contract have to be restructured? Can't we prorate the bonus money when it's paid, saving 4 million on the cap?
Yes, and thats what I'm sure they're going to do

Eshlemon
02-13-2005, 11:23 PM
It's more likely once per League Year, however, Chambers signed an extension, he didn't restructure, so your argument Eshlemon does not apply IMO.

How? The nflpa info doesn't put any qualifiers on the rule. Any roster or reporting bonus paid before pre-season training camp is treated as a signing bonus. We pay CC's bonus before camp and get to prorate the 5 million bonus.

Merman
02-14-2005, 02:12 AM
How? The nflpa info doesn't put any qualifiers on the rule. Any roster or reporting bonus paid before pre-season training camp is treated as a signing bonus. We pay CC's bonus before camp and get to prorate the 5 million bonus.

That particular section of the CBA is more confusing than most. Did you read the next paragraph???



* For purposes of the Salary Cap and Entering Player Pool, any roster or reporting bonus which is earned or paid before the start of the Club’s pre-season training camp shall be treated as a signing bonus.

*Side Letter 6/23/93: Sec. 6

* Except as set forth in [the] Paragraph [to follow], the full non-guaranteed amount of any Salary advance, off-season

Page 104

work-out bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus shall be included in Team Salary only in the League Year in which it is earned by the player, without any pro-ration. For purposes of this paragraph only, “guaranteed” means Salary that is fully guaranteed, prior to being earned, for skill, for injury, and regardless of any termination of the contract by the Club. The definition of “guaranteed” set forth above shall not affect Salary Cap accounting for any other purpose.

*Side Letter 10/21/96: Sec. 1

* With respect to any Player Contract, or any renegotiation or extension of a Player Contract, that is executed in the Final Capped Year, each of the following shall be treated as a signing bonus, at the time of execution, if it is to be earned or paid to the player in the Final League Year (which is an Uncapped Year): (a) any Salary advance which the player is not and cannot be obligated to repay; (b) any off-season workout bonus that is contingent upon the player’s participation in less than 32 days of the Club’s off-season work-out program; (c) any off-season roster bonus; and (d) any off-season reporting bonus.

*Side Letter 10/21/96: Sec. 2

Clumpy
02-14-2005, 02:25 AM
I have a headache :(

Clumpy
02-14-2005, 02:26 AM
Confusing is appropriate Merman.

Merman
02-14-2005, 02:46 AM
Confusing is appropriate Merman.

The most confusing headache giving section has to be the Deion rule.

Enjoy: :roflmao:


* [A]ny multi-year Player Contract not unconditionally approved by the Commissioner as of the date hereof, other than any multi-year Player Contract executed in the last Capped Year of this Agreement, that extends from a Capped Year into any Uncapped Year (hereinafter “Subject Contract”). For purposes of determining Team Salary, if (i) the sum of the player’s Paragraph 5 Salary, roster bonuses that are based upon the player making any of the Club’s roster categories without limitation, and reporting bonuses during all Capped Years of the Subject Contract (but, if there are fewer than three remaining Capped Years, during the first three years of the Subject Contract) in the aggregate less than (ii) the portion of the Subject Contract’s signing bonus that would be allocated to those League Years if the signing bonus were prorated equally over the term of the Subject Contract, then: the difference between the amounts calculated pursuant to (ii) and (i) of this sentence, up to 50% of the portion of the signing bonus that would otherwise be allocated to the Uncapped Years (the “Difference”), shall be deducted in equal portions from those Uncapped Years and reallocated1 in equal portions over the Capped Years of the Subject Contract (or, if there are fewer than three Capped Years within the term of the Subject Contract, over the first three years of the Subject Contract). For purposes of this Paragraph, a renegotiation shall be treated as if it is an entirely new Player Contract. Notwithstanding the above, any Subject Contract executed prior to November 15, 1995 for which there is a Difference as a result of the calculation set forth above

Page 101

shall have the 1995 portion of such Difference allocated to 1995 Team Salary to the extent of the Club’s current and any future Room during the 1995 regular season (except such Room that results from the termination or renegotiation of a 1995 Player Contract after October 30, 1995), with the balance to be allocated to the 1996 League Year. Further, any Subject Contract executed between November 15, 1995 and the end of the 1995 League Year shall have the 1995 portion of any Difference allocated to the 1996 League Year.

*Side Letter 11/1/95: Sec. 1

Clumpy
02-14-2005, 05:32 AM
I don't have the strength :rofl:

Eshlemon
02-14-2005, 02:00 PM
The 5 million wasn't guaranteed?

Another negative against us being able to prorate the 5 million early, the Herald states this as a fact.

www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/10586490.htm


As Clumpy said... :hitself:

Merman
02-14-2005, 03:21 PM
The 5 million wasn't guaranteed?

Another negative against us being able to prorate the 5 million early, the Herald states this as a fact.

www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/10586490.htm


As Clumpy said... :hitself:

What are you talking about???

Merman
02-14-2005, 03:28 PM
He's not on the cap page because he's an unrestricted FA. No FAs, regardless of which type, is on the page until they are either re-signed or tendered

Some rule that says a cap chart can't show the signing status of the team's players??? :lol:

Eshlemon
02-14-2005, 06:10 PM
What are you talking about???

From the beginning my question was why we couldn't prorate CC's 5 million roster bonus (saving 4 million against the cap) as early as possible. Other posters stated changing a roster bonus to signing bonus would count as a restructure, which they also stated wasn't possible.

If yes, gives Saban a lot more flexibility. Can get under cap with 3 moves, CC's 4 million cap savings plus cutting Fiedler & Seau using Clumpy's cap info. If Herald's info is surprisingly correct, add 2 more moves in cutting Boston & Freeman.

Merman
02-14-2005, 09:36 PM
From the beginning my question was why we couldn't prorate CC's 5 million roster bonus (saving 4 million against the cap) as early as possible. Other posters stated changing a roster bonus to signing bonus would count as a restructure, which they also stated wasn't possible.

If yes, gives Saban a lot more flexibility. Can get under cap with 3 moves, CC's 4 million cap savings plus cutting Fiedler & Seau using Clumpy's cap info. If Herald's info is surprisingly correct, add 2 more moves in cutting Boston & Freeman.

Maybe you didn't notice my post. I answered your question about being able to restructure or renegotiate contracts and quoted the rules so you could verify it for yourself. I even gave a previous example.

I realize most have no patience but the New Year starts March 1st when all the rules take effect for that year. That statement may seem obvious but many don't realize that taking total payroll when there are more than 51 players signed and stating that total payroll is over the cap is a bit misleading. It could be misleading from $3 to $5 million. The reason we don't know for sure IMO is due to the reporting. Have you noticed the contract details fans of other teams have???

It is fun discussing cap moves but the truth is the Dolphins will easily be under the cap with a few moves as Cole reports. Any veteran's contract can be restructured or any player released. With knowledge of Salary Cap rules one can usually make educated guesses but as Clump learned last year you never know for sure what will happen.

Clump's cap chart and mine are both accurate enough to make intelligent decisions concerning the business part of player evaluations. As most know and some still have to learn it takes talent, money and a player's character to come to personnel decisions that make sense.

Eshlemon
02-14-2005, 09:53 PM
Maybe you didn't notice my post. I answered your question about being able to restructure or renegotiate contracts and quoted the rules so you could verify it for yourself. I even gave a previous example.

I realize most have no patience but the New Year starts March 1st when all the rules take effect for that year. That statement may seem obvious but many don't realize that taking total payroll when there are more than 51 players signed and stating that total payroll is over the cap is a bit misleading. It could be misleading from $3 to $5 million. The reason we don't know for sure IMO is due to the reporting. Have you noticed the contract details fans of other teams have???

It is fun discussing cap moves but the truth is the Dolphins will easily be under the cap with a few moves as Cole reports. Any veteran's contract can be restructured or any player released. With knowledge of Salary Cap rules one can usually make educated guesses but as Clump learned last year you never know for sure what will happen.

Clump's cap chart and mine are both accurate enough to make intelligent decisions concerning the business part of player evaluations. As most know and some still have to learn it takes talent, money and a player's character to come to personnel decisions that make sense.

I've read and appreciate everything you posted. But you asked me "What are you talking about???" Didn't know exactly what you were referring to, so stated what my original question was in the CC discussion.