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MiamiDolfans
05-28-2005, 11:59 PM
***SOME CHANGES HAVE OCCURED***
Ray Guy @ punter
Rod Woodson @ 5th corner (was previously only 4 corners)
A few more mentionables added
Paul Warfield @ 6th receiver (was previously only 5 receivers)

I know we just had a post about this, but I spent a few hours researching this and didn't want to just reply to the thread. In relation to the other post, here is my response on an all NFL-Team...

QB
D.Marino
J.Montana
J.Elway
HB
B.Sanders
O.Simpson*
W.Peyton
J.Brown
B.Jackson*
FB
L.Csonka
T.Richardson*
TE
S.Sharpe
M.Ditka
K.Winslow
WR
J. Rice
C.Carter
L.Swann*
P.Warfield
S.Sharpe
R.Moss*
LT
A.Munoz
Webb
LG
G.Upshaw
J.Otto
C
J.Langer
D.Dawson
RG
L.Little
J.DeLamielleure*
RT
A.Shell
J.Slater
D.Dierdorf
LE
D.Jones
R.White
RE
R.Dent
H.Long*
DT
W.Perry
D.Hampton
J.Greene
LOLB
L.Taylor
J.Ham
N.Buoniconti*
MLB
J.Lambert
M.Singletary
D.Butkus
R.Lewis*
ROLB
W.Lanier
R.Nitschke
CB
D.Sanders
D.Lane
H.Adderley
M.Renfro
R.Woodson*
FS
S.Atwater
K. Houston
SS
R.Lott
P. Krause
K
G.Anderson
P
R.Guy
Coach
V.Lombardi
D.Shula
T.Landry
B.Belichick*
Other Mentionables
J.Unitas
R.Staubach
T.Aikman
B.Starr
J.Namath
E.Smith
L.Allen
W.Allen
C.Noll
B.Walsh
A.Davis
W.Moon
D.Stephenson
P.Manning
P.Stoyanovich
R.Roby
B.Smith
E.Campbell
D.Thomas

Ok, so I spent a few hours comparing a few guys trying to get a breakdown. But for the most part I have known these guys long before I made this. Of course it can't be prefectly true, I am 15 years old, and missed some great days of football. But based on games I have seen, classic footage, statistics, pro-bowls, mvps, other awards, super-bowls, and shear game-breaking ability... that is my roster. Players with stars beside their names are questionables.

I know alot of guys wouldn't put O.J. on this list, but simply put he ran for 2000+ yards in 13 games, on a a terrible team. There is no doubt in my mind he is one of the best running backs ever to play in the NFL.

Bo Jackson in my opinion deserves to be there, but many may disagree. He is and was one of the greatest athletes of all-time. The only thing keeping him from being a definate was an unfortunate injury that held him short.

Tony Richardson is still playing, but needless to say has been a force at FB. He is a threat in many aspects of the game, and in my opinion if he finishes out a few more years with KC (maybe win a superbowl), and gets into the hall of fame in a few years he is a definate starter on this team.

Lynn Swann is terribly under-rated, since the basterds finally let him in the hall of fame there is no argueing his position on the all-time list.

Randy Moss is half man, and half amazing, but he has major attitude problems. If he can maintain his play for a few more years and drop the attitude he is a definate member of this team, but no doubt it lower in the ranks. A superbowl and trip to the hall would really help him out also.

Joe DeLamielleure was a bill... just joking :P. He was a tough toss up with a few other guys, but after looking at some gametapes, and in-game effectiveness he tipped the scale.

Personally I hate Howie Long, but I had to put him there... credit goes, where credit is due.

Nick Buoniconti is probably only on this list because I am a homer, but really he is a hall of famer, he played with the undefeated Dolphins, and was truly outstanding when no one even knew his name.

Ray Lewis is in the same boat as Randy Moss as far as I am concerned. If he can play a few more years at his current level, stay away from injury, and get into the hall, then he is more than deserving to be on this list.

Last but not least I had to add good old Bill to the list of coaches. He is still unconfirmed in this position, but if he can hold out a few more years as a coach, without completely crumbling he is up there. If he can maintain his current situation it is possible for him to pass some of the coaches ahead of him.

GreenMonster
05-29-2005, 12:23 AM
Richmond Webb at LT.... Interesting... Pete Stoyanovich at Punter is very interesting...

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 12:30 AM
Richmond Webb at LT.... Interesting... Pete Stoyanovich at Punter is very interesting...

note: I am a homer :D

But I think Richmond Webb is as much a Bengal as a Dolphin, and there is no doubt he is amazing at his position. I think getting into the HOF would make him very deserving of being up there, but I believe his induction is imminent.

As for Pete, that was a very hard one, also had to consider Reggie Roby, and many others... but I once saw a clip of Pete kicking a punt in practice and because of that he always stands out in my mind as an all-time punter. It was something like a 103 yard punt with bounce...

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 01:20 AM
I think Warren Moon should also be a mentionable on that list... I believe he revolutionized "athletic quarterbacks".

Bobby Humphrey
05-29-2005, 01:24 AM
i few i disagree with, but no two people will have the same list.

a well thought out post and i enjoyed reading it.

byroan
05-29-2005, 01:25 AM
As for Pete, that was a very hard one, also had to consider Reggie Roby, and many others... but I once saw a clip of Pete kicking a punt in practice and because of that he always stands out in my mind as an all-time punter. It was something like a 103 yard punt with bounce...

He wasn't our punter. He was our FG kicker

General Grimmac
05-29-2005, 01:25 AM
that was good.
jsut a lil surprised that peyton manning wasn't in at QB (though the 3 you picked sure are great)... marcus allen/priest holmes weren't even in the mentionables... derrick thomas not in at LB... or that surtain wasn't in any mentionables or sammy knight.

gr8slayer
05-29-2005, 01:39 AM
How do you not have Bruce Smith in there? He is the all time leader sacker.

HysterikiLL
05-29-2005, 04:23 AM
That's a great list. I love that you included Bo Jackson as he was one of the most physically amazing forces in the history of mankind.

Surferosa
05-29-2005, 04:25 AM
Tony Richardson?

Phinsfan1980
05-29-2005, 04:38 AM
What about Rod Woodson? Why not Ray Guy for punter..... Why Dan Hampton?

nyjunc
05-29-2005, 05:50 AM
Lynn Swann is terribly under-rated, once the basterds finally let him in the hall of fame there is no argueing his position on the all-time list.


Swann is terribly overrated and does not belong in the HOF w/o a ticket.

unifiedtheory
05-29-2005, 06:30 AM
I enjoyed that list...

Bo Jackson does'nt deserve to be on it...BUT...he was the most absurdly talented player I've ever seen.

Imagine what he would have done if he stayed out of baseball and stayed healthy.

phinfan2003
05-29-2005, 09:28 AM
The list lost all credibility w/ me when I didn't see Dwight Stephenson at C. But then again, it's your opinion so it doesn't matter.

Whitedolphin54
05-29-2005, 09:33 AM
i few i disagree with, but no two people will have the same list.

a well thought out post and i enjoyed reading it.

same here but a good team none the less :wink:

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 09:36 AM
Ok a quick reponse to all the statements...

Pete was indeed a kicker, but he could punt as well, maybe I did stretch it putting him at punter. I had actually forgot all about Ray Guy, to be honest.

Peyton Manning is a mentionable, but he needs to maintain his current gameplay for a few more years, and a superbowl would make it definate.

In my mind there are way to many great runningbacks, and because of that many greats won't get mention. Marcus Allen didn't make the cut, the other guys where just up on him too much. Priests Holmes?! Are we talking about the Priest Holmes who plays for the Kansas City Chiefs, and has only been a starter for like 4 seasons out of his career? He was not even considered for the mentionables list, sorry.

Derrick Thomas probably should have been a mentionable, but he can not start over those linebackers in the list - there is just no way. In all reality his talent probably surpasses them, but you need to compensate for eras as well. when those linebackers played in their eras, they dominated teams, and changed the course of games.

As for Surtain - I am a homer, but not that much. He is nowhere near Prime Time, Night Train, or Bullet. Don't get me wrong I love Surtain, but he still has a long ways to go to be an all-time great.

Sammy Knight? You kidding me? He has nothing on any of the safeties I used. If any current playing safety should be mentioned, it would probably be John Lynch.

Bruce Smith is definately a mentionable. He was heavily thought about, and didn't make the cut. He does indeed own the sack record, but that could be credited to how long he played and teams around him. In my mind he was never as dominant i nthe game as some of the other all-time DEs. Mind you he had his moments. Maybe when he gets in the HOF he will raise in stock on this list. His 4 superbowl appearences are always nice (sorry Bills fans, just had to). :D :D

Yes Bo Jackson just had to be mention. Had he played a full career Emmitt Smith would probably still be playing today trying to catch some records. Bo knows, he is simply amazing.

Tony Richardson was a toss up, but he has been consistent and a great player. In modern-day fullback type of position I believe he is the best, but its a tight race. There are alot you can argue, and it just depends on who you've seen dominate the most I suppose.

I had thought about Rod Woodson, and really he could make the team as a fifth corner, so I will add that. But he has never changed games like the other corners have. I put him one step up on Surtain, but still not quite there, a few more years would be nice for him - just 3 average, or better years.

I had to put Dan Hampton up there. He was a key part of the Bears NEAR PERFECT team, and his versatility was great. He landed in the HOF, and he was a gamebreaker for several years. I just can't think of anyone more deserving, although it was a close race with him and a few others.

As for Swann being over-rated, I hate it when people say that. Its disguiting the lack of credit he gets. I watched hours of this guy on gametape and had he just played a career as long as J.Rice he would be considered the second best receiver all-time by more than a few critics.

I am a homer, don't get me wrong. Dwight is a great guy, and I wanted him on that badly. But in his eight years of play he just didn't cut what it takes to be all-time. To be honest Dermonti Dawson was a close race himself, but he surpassed Dwight Stephenson, no doubt.

phinfan2003
05-29-2005, 09:48 AM
Ok a quick reponse to all the statements...

Pete was indeed a kicker, but he could punt as well, maybe I did stretch it putting him at punter. I had actually forgot all about Ray Guy, to be honest.

Peyton Manning is a mentionable, but he needs to maintain his current gameplay for a few more years, and a superbowl would make it definate.

In my mind there are way to many great runningbacks, and because of that many greats won't get mention. Marcus Allen didn't make the cut, the other guys where just up on him too much. Priests Holmes?! Are we talking about the Priest Holmes who plays for the Kansas City Chiefs, and has only been a starter for like 4 seasons out of his career? He was not even considered for the mentionables list, sorry.

Derrick Thomas probably should have been a mentionable, but he can not start over those linebackers in the list - there is just no way. In all reality his talent probably surpasses them, but you need to compensate for eras as well. when those linebackers played in their eras, they dominated teams, and changed the course of games.

As for Surtain - I am a homer, but not that much. He is nowhere near Prime Time, Night Train, or Bullet. Don't get me wrong I love Surtain, but he still has a long ways to go to be an all-time great.

Sammy Knight? You kidding me? He has nothing on any of the safeties I used. If any current playing safety should be mentioned, it would probably be John Lynch.

Bruce Smith is definately a mentionable. He was heavily thought about, and didn't make the cut. He does indeed own the sack record, but that could be credited to how long he played and teams around him. In my mind he was never as dominant i nthe game as some of the other all-time DEs. Mind you he had his moments. Maybe when he gets in the HOF he will raise in stock on this list. His 4 superbowl appearences are always nice (sorry Bills fans, just had to). :D :D

Yes Bo Jackson just had to be mention. Had he played a full career Emmitt Smith would probably still be playing today trying to catch some records. Bo knows, he is simply amazing.

Tony Richardson was a toss up, but he has been consistent and a great player. In modern-day fullback type of position I believe he is the best, but its a tight race. There are alot you can argue, and it just depends on who you've seen dominate the most I suppose.

I had thought about Rod Woodson, and really he could make the team as a fifth corner, so I will add that. But he has never changed games like the other corners have. I put him one step up on Surtain, but still not quite there, a few more years would be nice for him - just 3 average, or better years.

I had to put Dan Hampton up there. He was a key part of the Bears NEAR PERFECT team, and his versatility was great. He landed in the HOF, and he was a gamebreaker for several years. I just can't think of anyone more deserving, although it was a close race with him and a few others.

As for Swann being over-rated, I hate it when people say that. Its disguiting the lack of credit he gets. I watched hours of this guy on gametape and had he just played a career as long as J.Rice he would be considered the second best receiver all-time by more than a few critics.

I am a homer, don't get me wrong. Dwight is a great guy, and I wanted him on that badly. But in his eight years of play he just didn't cut what it takes to be all-time. To be honest Dermonti Dawson was a close race himself, but he surpassed Dwight Stephenson, no doubt.


You weren't around when Stephenson was doing his thing so you really have nothing to compare him to. The fact that Stephenson made the HOF despite having his career cut short speaks volume of the respect players, coaches, and the HOF voters have for him.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:02 AM
You weren't around when Stephenson was doing his thing so you really have nothing to compare him to. The fact that Stephenson made the HOF despite having his career cut short speaks volume of the respect players, coaches, and the HOF voters have for him.

I wasn't around for 90% of these players, but I have seen hours and hours of gametapes, studied statistics, and have alot of knowledge of Dwight in specific. I didn't say he doesn't deserve the HOF, he's just not a top 2 center all-time.

Your preaching to the preacher. I love Dwight, he is one of my favourite Dolphins ever, but he just doesn't deserve to be on that list.

nyjunc
05-29-2005, 10:07 AM
As for Swann being over-rated, I hate it when people say that. Its disguiting the lack of credit he gets. I watched hours of this guy on gametape and had he just played a career as long as J.Rice he would be considered the second best receiver all-time by more than a few critics.

The man averaged 37 recs, 607 yds, 6 TDs a season. Those are not HOF #s, I realize it's a different era but in any era those are nowhere near HOF #s. He was top 10 in recs just twice(finishing just 7th both times), top 10 in rec yards just 3 times(just once in top 5 w/ a 4th place finish being his highest), was top 10 in rec TDs just 3 times(actually led the league once). The man is not a HOFer and it's not even close. He made the Hall b/c he was a good guy and his media campaign eventually wore down the voters after 20 years. It's a travesty he's in the Hall as he wasn't even a borderline HOFer.

merlin00069
05-29-2005, 10:13 AM
I think Warren Moon should also be a mentionable on that list... I believe he revolutionized "athletic quarterbacks".

Warren Moon did alot for football. He revolutionized the CFL and have quite an impressive NFL career...but one thing he was never considered was an "athletic" QB. Moon averaged about 150 yards a season mostly evading the rush. Moons career total was 1700 yards for 17 years....Elway on the other hand if you want to compare had over 3400 yards for 16 years. Thats revolutionizing the "athletic" QB. I loved watching Moon play he was one of my favs, but he was no athletic QB

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:14 AM
The man averaged 37 recs, 607 yds, 6 TDs a season. Those are not HOF #s, I realize it's a different era but in any era those are nowhere near HOF #s. He was top 10 in recs just twice(finishing just 7th both times), top 10 in rec yards just 3 times(just once in top 5 w/ a 4th place finish being his highest), was top 10 in rec TDs just 3 times(actually led the league once). The man is not a HOFer and it's not even close. He made the Hall b/c he was a good guy and his media campaign eventually wore down the voters after 20 years. It's a travesty he's in the Hall as he wasn't even a borderline HOFer.

That is the biggest thing I hear over and over, so he didn't have the numer. First off he played in a different era, so that compensates a bit. Not to mention he was on a team who's running game was sounds to say the least. The guy has 4 rings, and if you actually watch some of his gametapes, ignore the numbers - and watch what he does. His ability is amazing, his catches make Jerry Rice look like a pop warner player. Lynn Swann is one of the greatest all-time, but this is a debate that will last forever. Only thing that gets me on it is the critics, who are hypocrits. The guys who say Dan doesn't deserve it because he has no rings, say Swanns rings don't count, and he needs stats. Flip-flop, flip-flop.

phinfan2003
05-29-2005, 10:14 AM
I wasn't around for 90% of these players, but I have seen hours and hours of gametapes, studied statistics, and have alot of knowledge of Dwight in specific. I didn't say he doesn't deserve the HOF, he's just not a top 2 center all-time.

Your preaching to the preacher. I love Dwight, he is one of my favourite Dolphins ever, but he just doesn't deserve to be on that list.

If you don't think Stephenson belongs because he was surpassed by Dawson, how can you put a guy like Sterling Sharpe on the list whose career was also cut short by injuries. Sure he had a couple 100 catch seasons and he was very good but definitely not one of the top 10 WR of all time.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:16 AM
Warren Moon did alot for football. He revolutionized the CFL and have quite an impressive NFL career...but one thing he was never considered was an "athletic" QB. Moon averaged about 150 yards a season mostly evading the rush. Moons career total was 1700 yards for 17 years....Elway on the other hand if you want to compare had over 3400 yards for 16 years. Thats revolutionizing the "athletic" QB. I loved watching Moon play he was one of my favs, but he was no athletic QB

I am sorry, it is my ignorance that has made you blind to this. When you look at what an athletic quarterback is today, it often refers to quaterbacks of color.

Vick
Culpepper
McNabb

That's why I used it in quotations. You'll never hear anyone talk about Feidler, or any other actually athletic quarterback as an "athletic quaterback", it seems the name has been reserved for black quarterbacks. In all honesty that is what I had been referring to, he revolutionized the world of black quarterbacks.

nyjunc
05-29-2005, 10:20 AM
That is the biggest thing I hear over and over, so he didn't have the numer. First off he played in a different era, so that compensates a bit. Not to mention he was on a team who's running game was sounds to say the least. The guy has 4 rings, and if you actually watch some of his gametapes, ignore the numbers - and watch what he does. His ability is amazing, his catches make Jerry Rice look like a pop warner player. Lynn Swann is one of the greatest all-time, but this is a debate that will last forever. Only thing that gets me on it is the critics, who are hypocrits. The guys who say Dan doesn't deserve it because he has no rings, say Swanns rings don't count, and he needs stats. Flip-flop, flip-flop.

You don't get into the Hall based on ability, you get there based on production. You won't find many more physically gifted QBs than Jeff george should he be a HOFer? The Steelers won 4 SBs w/ great D and a good O. It's ridiculous for that offense to have as many HOFers as they have and Swann is at the bottom of the list. They had an incredible advantage over any other offense b/c they knew they could make mistakes and still win b/c of their D. Swann was nowhere near the leaders during his era, he led in 1 category over his 9 yar career- ONE! and he was barely in the top 10 in other categories during his career. He does not belong, he's not even a borderline candidate. It is an absolute joke and a slap in the face to real HOFers that he is in.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:22 AM
If you don't think Stephenson belongs because he was surpassed by Dawson, how can you put a guy like Sterling Sharpe on the list whose career was also cut short by injuries. Sure he had a couple 100 catch seasons and he was very good but definitely not one of the top 10 WR of all time.

I suppose it is opinion, my list was made up of the following things...

statistics
records
superbowl rings
probowls
career length
hall of fame
in-game dominance
important to team

In my mind Dawson was a better total in the catagories combined, and he just beat out Stephenson... simple as that. Are you Dwight's son or something? You seem outrageously offended...

Sterling Sharpe is definately a top receiver. He had the stats, had the honors, records, etc. etc. blah. blah. He was cut short with injury, so was Bo Jackson and he is still on my list. Stephenson didn't get cut just for a short career. It's a combination of everythin that makes a football player great. Sharpe gets on, Dawson gets on, Stephenson doesn't.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:26 AM
You don't get into the Hall based on ability, you get there based on production. You won't find many more physically gifted QBs than Jeff george should he be a HOFer? The Steelers won 4 SBs w/ great D and a good O. It's ridiculous for that offense to have as many HOFers as they have and Swann is at the bottom of the list. They had an incredible advantage over any other offense b/c they knew they could make mistakes and still win b/c of their D. Swann was nowhere near the leaders during his era, he led in 1 category over his 9 yar career- ONE! and he was barely in the top 10 in other categories during his career. He does not belong, he's not even a borderline candidate. It is an absolute joke and a slap in the face to real HOFers that he is in.

Tell that to him.
Tell that to Terry Bradshaw.
Tell that to Chuck Noll.
Tell that to any Steelers fan, or anyone who has ever watched him play.

He is not in solely based on talent, but a combination. HOF is NOT based on numbers, its based on great football players, the greatest ever. That is talent, stats, records, superbowls, probowls, other honors, and the public opinion. There is no doubt he deserves it.

first&goal
05-29-2005, 10:27 AM
Good list, what I would add at WR is Paul Warfield.

phinfan2003
05-29-2005, 10:28 AM
I suppose it is opinion, my list was made up of the following things...

statistics
records
superbowl rings
probowls
career length
hall of fame
in-game dominance
important to team

In my mind Dawson was a better total in the catagories combined, and he just beat out Stephenson... simple as that. Are you Dwight's son or something? You seem outrageously offended...

Sterling Sharpe is definately a top receiver. He had the stats, had the honors, records, etc. etc. blah. blah. He was cut short with injury, so was Bo Jackson and he is still on my list. Stephenson didn't get cut just for a short career. It's a combination of everythin that makes a football player great. Sharpe gets on, Dawson gets on, Stephenson doesn't.

I'm sorry for disputing your list of so called "all-time greatest". There are a lot of flaws with your team but it is your opinion. At least you found something productive to do with all of you research. :up:

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:31 AM
Good list, what I would add at WR is Paul Warfield.

That's another guy I forgot about, thank you.

phinfan2003
05-29-2005, 10:32 AM
***SOME CHANGES HAVE OCCURED***
Ray Guy @ punter
Rod Woodson @ 5th corner (was previously only 4 corners)
A few more mentionables added

I know we just had a post about this, but I spent a few hours researching this and didn't want to just reply to the thread. In relation to the other post, here is my response on an all NFL-Team...

QB
D.Marino
J.Montana
J.Elway
HB
B.Sanders
O.Simpson*
W.Peyton
J.Brown
B.Jackson*
FB
L.Csonka
T.Richardson*
TE
S.Sharpe
M.Ditka
K.Winslow
WR
J. Rice
C.Carter
L.Swann*
S.Sharpe
R.Moss*
LT
A.Munoz
Webb
LG
G.Upshaw
J.Otto
C
J.Langer
D.Dawson
RG
L.Little
J.DeLamielleure*
RT
A.Shell
J.Slater
D.Dierdorf
LE
D.Jones
R.White
RE
R.Dent
H.Long*
DT
W.Perry
D.Hampton
J.Greene
LOLB
L.Taylor
J.Ham
N.Buoniconti*
MLB
J.Lambert
M.Singletary
D.Butkus
R.Lewis*
ROLB
W.Lanier
R.Nitschke
CB
D.Sanders
D.Lane
H.Adderley
M.Renfro
R.Woodson*
FS
S.Atwater
K. Houston
SS
R.Lott
P. Krause
K
G.Anderson
P
R.Guy
Coach
V.Lombardi
D.Shula
T.Landry
B.Belichick*
Other Mentionables
J.Unitas
R.Staubach
T.Aikman
B.Starr
J.Namath
E.Smith
L.Allen
W.Allen
C.Noll
B.Walsh
A.Davis
W.Moon
D.Stephenson
P.Manning
P.Stoyanovich
R.Roby
B.Smith

Ok, so I spent a few hours comparing a few guys trying to get a breakdown. But for the most part I have known these guys long before I made this. Of course it can't be prefectly true, I am 15 years old, and missed some great days of football. But based on games I have seen, classic footage, statistics, pro-bowls, mvps, other awards, super-bowls, and shear game-breaking ability... that is my roster. Players with stars beside their names are questionables.

I know alot of guys wouldn't put O.J. on this list, but simply put he ran for 2000+ yards in 13 games, on a a terrible team. There is no doubt in my mind he is one of the best running backs ever to play in the NFL.

Bo Jackson in my opinion deserves to be there, but many may disagree. He is and was one of the greatest athletes of all-time. The only thing keeping him from being a definate was an unfortunate injury that held him short.

Tony Richardson is still playing, but needless to say has been a force at FB. He is a threat in many aspects of the game, and in my opinion if he finishes out a few more years with KC (maybe win a superbowl), and gets into the hall of fame in a few years he is a definate starter on this team.

Lynn Swann is terribly under-rated, since the basterds finally let him in the hall of fame there is no argueing his position on the all-time list.

Randy Moss is half man, and half amazing, but he has major attitude problems. If he can maintain his play for a few more years and drop the attitude he is a definate member of this team, but no doubt it lower in the ranks. A superbowl and trip to the hall would really help him out also.

Joe DeLamielleure was a bill... just joking :P. He was a tough toss up with a few other guys, but after looking at some gametapes, and in-game effectiveness he tipped the scale.

Personally I hate Howie Long, but I had to put him there... credit goes, where credit is due.

Nick Buoniconti is probably only on this list because I am a homer, but really he is a hall of famer, he played with the undefeated Dolphins, and was truly outstanding when no one even knew his name.

Ray Lewis is in the same boat as Randy Moss as far as I am concerned. If he can play a few more years at his current level, stay away from injury, and get into the hall, then he is more than deserving to be on this list.

Last but not least I had to add good old Bill to the list of coaches. He is still unconfirmed in this position, but if he can hold out a few more years as a coach, without completely crumbling he is up there. If he can maintain his current situation it is possible for him to pass some of the coaches ahead of him.

I still believe R.Woodson has a bit to go to make this list. But when comparing he does deserve to be at least mentioned. I decided we'd go with 5 corners and add him to the roster. He needs a few more years of consistency, and to get into the HOF.


Last comment I promise! Is that the William "The refrigerator" Perry that you have a DT? Are you kidding me?!? If he's going to be anywhere on your list he should be as a RB. Didn't you see how "dominating" he was in the SB vs. the Pats. It doesn't get much better than that.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:32 AM
I'm sorry for disputing your list of so called "all-time greatest". There are a lot of flaws with your team but it is your opinion. At least you found something productive to do with all of you research. :up:

My team would beat your team. :D

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:33 AM
Last comment I promise! Is that the William "The refrigerator" Perry that you have a DT? Are you kidding me?!? If he's going to be anywhere on your list he should be as a RB. Didn't you see how "dominating" he was in the SB vs. the Pats. It doesn't get much better than that.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Just Win Baby
05-29-2005, 10:33 AM
Hey buddy, Rod Woodson doesn't play anymore

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 12:02 PM
Hey buddy, Rod Woodson doesn't play anymore

No? Did he just retire, could I please get the article reporting? I had no idea...

Just Win Baby
05-29-2005, 12:11 PM
No? Did he just retire, could I please get the article reporting? I had no idea... I believe he works for the NFL network.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 01:26 PM
I believe he works for the NFL network.

All news to me, lol.

Atila
05-29-2005, 02:31 PM
tim brown

Roman529
05-29-2005, 02:49 PM
Nice list youngin!!!! BUT you never got to see Dwight Stephenson play so you missed an ALL-TIME great at your CENTER spot.

Dolphin72
05-29-2005, 03:12 PM
Earl Campbell was another back that could dominate a game.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 05:04 PM
Yes Earl Campbell was definately a great, he's a mentionable...

General Grimmac
05-29-2005, 06:56 PM
How do you not have Bruce Smith in there? He is the all time leader sacker.
and during the time when d. thomas (#58, chiefs) was playing and alive, he had more sacks than smith for some of those seasons... and maybe more than smith during that time period (he has the record of sacks in one game, 7, against seattle and dave krieg, who later played for the chiefs).
give him 3 more years, and he'd be in the top 3-4 for all time sacks, and maybe even at the top.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 07:00 PM
and during the time when d. thomas (#58, chiefs) was playing and alive, he had more sacks than smith for some of those seasons... and maybe more than smith during that time period (he has the record of sacks in one game, 7, against seattle and dave krieg, who later played for the chiefs).
give him 3 more years, and he'd be in the top 3-4 for all time sacks, and maybe even at the top.

There is no doubt he was great, but was he a better player than...

L.Taylor
J.Ham
N.Buoniconti
J.Lambert
M.Singletary
D.Butkus
R.Lewis
W.Lanier
R.Nitschke

Only one I rank him ahead of is Lewis, and Lewis is there based on his potential in the next few years.

General Grimmac
05-29-2005, 07:06 PM
he has the career record for sacks in one game... and if ray lewis there based on potential, thomas has to be... if he didn't die, he could have played up to 5 more years.

he was just as explosive as LT... he is known by some as LT's 'heir'... he screwed up people's gameplans like almost no one else could... he almost had 8 sacks that game, but krieg got free (and threw a touchdown to win the game:shakeno::shakeno::shakeno::shakeno::shakeno:)... but in 96 i think, he had a game with 6 more sacks... anyone that holds the top 2 records for sacks in a game should be on there...he was DANG good.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:26 PM
I know its a bit off-topic but everyone be sure to check out this site...

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/shoemaker/337/home.htm

Not the greatest site, but its nice to see some efforts put forth. After reading the guestbook a bit you really get to see just how much athletes can influence people's lives. Needless to say Derrick was a great man.

GreenMonster
05-29-2005, 10:30 PM
he was just as explosive as LT... he is known by some as LT's 'heir'... he screwed up people's gameplans like almost no one else could...

You can compare him to LT but he is a distant 2nd.. LT may have been the single most dominate Defensive player ever. Thomas was great but LT is a god among men.

MiamiDolfans
05-29-2005, 10:30 PM
and during the time when d. thomas (#58, chiefs) was playing and alive, he had more sacks than smith for some of those seasons... and maybe more than smith during that time period (he has the record of sacks in one game, 7, against seattle and dave krieg, who later played for the chiefs).
give him 3 more years, and he'd be in the top 3-4 for all time sacks, and maybe even at the top.

His potential is very true, but the thing is Lewis still is playing and has the chance to achieve more. Sadly Thomas doesn't. :cry:

igor79
05-29-2005, 10:35 PM
anyone ever heard of eric dickerson?

Crisis
05-29-2005, 10:38 PM
Andre Reed?

MiamiDolfans
05-30-2005, 07:53 AM
anyone ever heard of eric dickerson?

Like I mentioned before, many greats don't get as much credit as of the amount of greats ahead of them. You will see that especially at RB, and QB as well.

MiamiDolfans
05-30-2005, 07:54 AM
Andre Reed?

I don't see him ahead of any of those other receivers. In fact I think I could name another 6 receivers who'd be ahead of Reed, at least.

Whitedolphin54
05-30-2005, 07:57 AM
There is no doubt he was great, but was he a better player than...

L.Taylor
J.Ham
N.Buoniconti
J.Lambert
M.Singletary
D.Butkus
R.Lewis
W.Lanier
R.Nitschke

Only one I rank him ahead of is Lewis, and Lewis is there based on his potential in the next few years.

he was a great but no way better than LT who imo was the best to ever play

kbeath
05-30-2005, 08:30 AM
What about Steve Largent? He was easily top 3 Wr of all time.

MiamiDolfans
05-30-2005, 04:01 PM
What about Steve Largent? He was easily top 3 Wr of all time.

I actually had a really tough time with Largent. I felt Sterling Sharpe really deserved to be on there, so I had alot of trouble and I decided to go with Sharpe. In my mind Sharpe is the only one he would eliminate and I suppose it is 50/50. And of course Randy Moss, but him being on the list is based on how his career SHOULD finish.

FinsAreLife
05-30-2005, 04:10 PM
***SOME CHANGES HAVE OCCURED***
Ray Guy @ punter
Rod Woodson @ 5th corner (was previously only 4 corners)
A few more mentionables added
Paul Warfield @ 6th receiver (was previously only 5 receivers)

I know we just had a post about this, but I spent a few hours researching this and didn't want to just reply to the thread. In relation to the other post, here is my response on an all NFL-Team...

QB
D.Marino
J.Montana
J.Elway
HB
B.Sanders
O.Simpson*
W.Peyton
J.Brown
B.Jackson*
FB
L.Csonka
T.Richardson*
TE
S.Sharpe
M.Ditka
K.Winslow
WR
J. Rice
C.Carter
L.Swann*
P.Warfield
S.Sharpe
R.Moss*
LT
A.Munoz
Webb
LG
G.Upshaw
J.Otto
C
J.Langer
D.Dawson
RG
L.Little
J.DeLamielleure*
RT
A.Shell
J.Slater
D.Dierdorf
LE
D.Jones
R.White
RE
R.Dent
H.Long*
DT
W.Perry
D.Hampton
J.Greene
LOLB
L.Taylor
J.Ham
N.Buoniconti*
MLB
J.Lambert
M.Singletary
D.Butkus
R.Lewis*
ROLB
W.Lanier
R.Nitschke
CB
D.Sanders
D.Lane
H.Adderley
M.Renfro
R.Woodson*
FS
S.Atwater
K. Houston
SS
R.Lott
P. Krause
K
G.Anderson
P
R.Guy
Coach
V.Lombardi
D.Shula
T.Landry
B.Belichick*
Other Mentionables
J.Unitas
R.Staubach
T.Aikman
B.Starr
J.Namath
E.Smith
L.Allen
W.Allen
C.Noll
B.Walsh
A.Davis
W.Moon
D.Stephenson
P.Manning
P.Stoyanovich
R.Roby
B.Smith
E.Campbell
D.Thomas

Ok, so I spent a few hours comparing a few guys trying to get a breakdown. But for the most part I have known these guys long before I made this. Of course it can't be prefectly true, I am 15 years old, and missed some great days of football. But based on games I have seen, classic footage, statistics, pro-bowls, mvps, other awards, super-bowls, and shear game-breaking ability... that is my roster. Players with stars beside their names are questionables.

I know alot of guys wouldn't put O.J. on this list, but simply put he ran for 2000+ yards in 13 games, on a a terrible team. There is no doubt in my mind he is one of the best running backs ever to play in the NFL.

Bo Jackson in my opinion deserves to be there, but many may disagree. He is and was one of the greatest athletes of all-time. The only thing keeping him from being a definate was an unfortunate injury that held him short.

Tony Richardson is still playing, but needless to say has been a force at FB. He is a threat in many aspects of the game, and in my opinion if he finishes out a few more years with KC (maybe win a superbowl), and gets into the hall of fame in a few years he is a definate starter on this team.

Lynn Swann is terribly under-rated, since the basterds finally let him in the hall of fame there is no argueing his position on the all-time list.

Randy Moss is half man, and half amazing, but he has major attitude problems. If he can maintain his play for a few more years and drop the attitude he is a definate member of this team, but no doubt it lower in the ranks. A superbowl and trip to the hall would really help him out also.

Joe DeLamielleure was a bill... just joking :P. He was a tough toss up with a few other guys, but after looking at some gametapes, and in-game effectiveness he tipped the scale.

Personally I hate Howie Long, but I had to put him there... credit goes, where credit is due.

Nick Buoniconti is probably only on this list because I am a homer, but really he is a hall of famer, he played with the undefeated Dolphins, and was truly outstanding when no one even knew his name.

Ray Lewis is in the same boat as Randy Moss as far as I am concerned. If he can play a few more years at his current level, stay away from injury, and get into the hall, then he is more than deserving to be on this list.

Last but not least I had to add good old Bill to the list of coaches. He is still unconfirmed in this position, but if he can hold out a few more years as a coach, without completely crumbling he is up there. If he can maintain his current situation it is possible for him to pass some of the coaches ahead of him.



well thought of but i dont really like the whole thing

MiamiDolfans
05-30-2005, 04:38 PM
well thought of but i dont really like the whole thing

any suggestions?

merlin00069
05-30-2005, 04:59 PM
I am sorry, it is my ignorance that has made you blind to this. When you look at what an athletic quarterback is today, it often refers to quaterbacks of color.

Vick
Culpepper
McNabb

That's why I used it in quotations. You'll never hear anyone talk about Feidler, or any other actually athletic quarterback as an "athletic quaterback", it seems the name has been reserved for black quarterbacks. In all honesty that is what I had been referring to, he revolutionized the world of black quarterbacks.

That he did my friend....in spades. Moon was one of the best QB's ive actually ever seen and doesnt get the credit he deserves. I personally dont look at color at any position...if youre good...then youre good. you are right though...without Moon who knows where the "black" QB would be. The game is better because of guys like Warren. For a few years there...he was throwing the ball up and down the field like Marino was. Good to hear his name being cisculated again. Good post. :D

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 05:18 PM
LYNN SWANN IS THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY!

YOUR LIST IS A JOKE!

IT'S FUNNY B/C YOU NEVER SAW 95% OF THE GUYS ON YOUR LIST PLAY!

Swann played 9 years:

336 catches

5462 yards

-NOT in the All-Time Top-50 in ANY MAJOR STATISTICAL CATEGORY.

Andre Reed:

16 years:

951 catches

13198 yards

-4th All-Time in catches

-6th in yards

-10th in TD's


Steve Largent:

13 years:

819 catches

13089 yards

100 TD's

-Retired as the All-Time Leader in catches, TD's, Yards, and consecutive games with a catch.

Art Monk:

15 years:

940 catches

12721 yards

-5th All-Time in catches. 9th in yards.

-During career held records for catches in season, career, and consecutive games.

SO, BEFORE COMING ON TO A MESSAGE BOARD AND MAKING AN UTTER FOOL OF YOURSELF YOU BETTER GO ON EBAY AND GET SOME MORE GAME FILM B/C LEAVING OFF LARGENT, MONK, AND REED IN FAVOR OF SWANN IS LAUGHABLE.

/Not to mention others like Charley Taylor, Lance Alworth, Fred Biletnikoff, and Charlie Joiner.

:shakeno:

..youngins...

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 05:21 PM
btw/ you left off Alan Page, Bob Lilly, Randy White, and Merlin Olsen in favor of Dan Hampton and William Perry. Pretty pathetic.

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 05:22 PM
Willie Lanier was a MLB and Jim Otto was a center.

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 05:23 PM
Adderly and Renfro ahead of Darrell Green?

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 05:25 PM
You know what, I don't have enough time to go through your whole sad list. Bo Jackson? LOL He would have been a great but he was hurt. What aboutn Campbell, Dickerson, Emmitt?

MiamiDolfans
05-30-2005, 10:39 PM
:roflmao::roflmao:

The only person who has made a fool of themselves is you. This is a list composed by me, in my opinion. Art Monk does deserve to be on there, the others, I still place Swann ahead of. If you have a problem with this, great - make your own list. But don't insult my list. Talent isn't always based on numbers. You seem to be quite the angry man...

BTW: I am aware of Otto and Lanier, I moved them intentionally as they would have performed the same at those positions.

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 11:26 PM
An All-Time great list should be a compilation of the greatest players in NFL histoy-the guy's who PRODUCED the most.

Not the guy's with the most talent.

If it was a list of the guy's with the most talent then Ryan Leaf should be on there.

20.J.G.18
05-30-2005, 11:43 PM
BTW/ You place Swann ahead of Steve Largent and Charley Taylor? wow.

Largent went to 7 Pro Bowl's, had 8 1,000 yard seasons, 9 times finished in the Top-Ten in the NFL in catches, 8 times finished in the Top-Ten in the NFL in yards, and 8 times finished in the Top-Ten in the NFL in TD's. Then he retired as the All-Time leader in catches, yards, and TD's and was a 1st Team choice at WR on the All-Decade of the 1980's Team.

Taylor who I assume you have heard of was the 1964 Rookie of the Year. He played some WR and some RB. He carried 199 times for 755 yards and 5 TD's as a RB then at WR he caught 53 balls for 814 yards and 5 TD's. He eventually settled in at WR where he went to 8 Pro Bowl's, finished Top-Ten in catches 9 times, Top-Ten in yards 6 times, and Top-Ten in TD's 6 times. He led the NFL in catches in 1966 and 1967. And retired in 1977 as the NFL's All-Time Leader in catches (His record eventually broken by Joiner then by Monk then Rice)

He was a 1st Team Choice at WR on the All-Decade of the 1960's Team. His banner year being 1966 IMO when he caught a whopping 72 balls for 1119 yards (good for 15.5 per) and 12 TD's. That year he finished 1st in catches, 2nd in yards, and 1st in TD's. Phenominal #'s for the mid-60's.

Now let's look at Swann:

NOT in the Top-50 in any major statistical category.

-Average roughly 607 yards receiving per year and 37 catches per year. 3 Pro Bowl's. 2 times he finished in the Top-Ten in the league in catches, 3 times in yards, and 3 times in TD's. The highest he ever got in catches was 7th.

You honestly think Swann was better then Largent or Taylor?

Here's the link to profootballreference.com

You may want to check that site out. :)

www.profootballreference.com (http://)

20.J.G.18
05-31-2005, 12:13 AM
Here's my team, this will be from 1960-2005.

QB: John Unitas, Fran Tarkenton
RB: Jim Brown, Walter Payton
FB: Larry Csonka, John Riggins
WR: Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Art Monk
TE: Kellen Winslow, Shannon Sharpe
LT: Anthony Munoz, Art Shell
LG: John Hannah, Russ Grimm
C: Dwight Stephenson, Mike Webster
RG: Bob Kuechenberg, Conrad Dobler
RT: Jackie Slater, Dan Dierdorf

RE: Bruce Smith, Charles Haley
LE: Reggie White, Deacon Jones
DT: Joe Greene, Merlin Olsen, Bob Lilly
OLB: Lawrence Taylor, Jack Ham, Derrick Brooks
MLB: Dick Butkus, Mike Singletary, Ray Lewis
CB: Mike Haynes, Rod Wooson, Darrell Green
FS: Ken Houston, Larry Wilson
SS: Ronnie Lott, Paul Krause

nyjunc
05-31-2005, 06:12 AM
Tell that to him.
Tell that to Terry Bradshaw.
Tell that to Chuck Noll.
Tell that to any Steelers fan, or anyone who has ever watched him play.

He is not in solely based on talent, but a combination. HOF is NOT based on numbers, its based on great football players, the greatest ever. That is talent, stats, records, superbowls, probowls, other honors, and the public opinion. There is no doubt he deserves it.

It's not based solely on talent, it's also based on PRODUCTION! He didn't have anywhere near HOF production over his career. Nice player, had somce big games in january but that's it. It's a complete insult to real HOFers that he is in.

MiamiDolfans
05-31-2005, 07:50 AM
Here's my team, this will be from 1960-2005.

QB: John Unitas, Fran Tarkenton
RB: Jim Brown, Walter Payton
FB: Larry Csonka, John Riggins
WR: Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Art Monk
TE: Kellen Winslow, Shannon Sharpe
LT: Anthony Munoz, Art Shell
LG: John Hannah, Russ Grimm
C: Dwight Stephenson, Mike Webster
RG: Bob Kuechenberg, Conrad Dobler
RT: Jackie Slater, Dan Dierdorf

RE: Bruce Smith, Charles Haley
LE: Reggie White, Deacon Jones
DT: Joe Greene, Merlin Olsen, Bob Lilly
OLB: Lawrence Taylor, Jack Ham, Derrick Brooks
MLB: Dick Butkus, Mike Singletary, Ray Lewis
CB: Mike Haynes, Rod Wooson, Darrell Green
FS: Ken Houston, Larry Wilson
SS: Ronnie Lott, Paul Krause

I'd take my list over your's any day... its a thing called preference...

I certainly wouldn't have Tarkenton, Brooks, Lilly, or Dobler. All great players, but not the greatest all-time...

MiamiDolfans
05-31-2005, 07:51 AM
It's not based solely on talent, it's also based on PRODUCTION! He didn't have anywhere near HOF production over his career. Nice player, had somce big games in january but that's it. It's a complete insult to real HOFers that he is in.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

nyjunc
05-31-2005, 08:06 AM
I strongly disagree with this statement.

Obviously I disagree, it would be ok if he even was a borderline candidiate but he was not. He made it through a media campaign much like Phil Rizzuto in baseball. The HOF is supposed to be for the best of the best and Swann is not one of the all-time greats so it's a travesty he's in the Hall.

20.J.G.18
05-31-2005, 01:04 PM
Tarkenton retired as the NFL's All-Time leader in TD passes, passing yards, and completions. He is arguably the greatest QB of All-Time and not arguably the most underappreciated.

Here's a quick look at his #'s:

16 times he was Top-Ten in the NFL in passing TD's. 9 times in the Top-Three.

17 times he was Top-Ten in the NFL in passing yards. 10 times in the Top-Three.

He compliled 342 TD's to 266 INT's in his career and 47,003 yards passing. At the time of retirement he held the records for TD's and yards that Marino owns now.

Tarkenton also carried the ball 342 times in his career for 3674 yards and 32 TD's. He ran in for 10 TD's in a single season one year.

He still ranks 5th All-Time in passing yards and 3rd in TD's.


Now on to Lilly. This one I just don't understand. With Tarkenton, fine, you like other QB's better. Ok. Lilly, Olsen, Greene, and Page are clearly the best 4 DT's ever.

Lilly was All-NFL 8 years and went to 11 Pro Bowls. How can you rank Dan Hampton ahead of him? C'mon! Lilly missed ONE game in 14 years. He's on the 75th Anniversary All-Century Team.

MiamiDolfans
05-31-2005, 04:30 PM
Tarkenton retired as the NFL's All-Time leader in TD passes, passing yards, and completions. He is arguably the greatest QB of All-Time and not arguably the most underappreciated.

Here's a quick look at his #'s:

16 times he was Top-Ten in the NFL in passing TD's. 9 times in the Top-Three.

17 times he was Top-Ten in the NFL in passing yards. 10 times in the Top-Three.

He compliled 342 TD's to 266 INT's in his career and 47,003 yards passing. At the time of retirement he held the records for TD's and yards that Marino owns now.

Tarkenton also carried the ball 342 times in his career for 3674 yards and 32 TD's. He ran in for 10 TD's in a single season one year.

He still ranks 5th All-Time in passing yards and 3rd in TD's.


Now on to Lilly. This one I just don't understand. With Tarkenton, fine, you like other QB's better. Ok. Lilly, Olsen, Greene, and Page are clearly the best 4 DT's ever.

Lilly was All-NFL 8 years and went to 11 Pro Bowls. How can you rank Dan Hampton ahead of him? C'mon! Lilly missed ONE game in 14 years. He's on the 75th Anniversary All-Century Team.

Many over Tarkenton... and Lilly was great, but I just don't see him as a game-breaker.

20.J.G.18
05-31-2005, 11:15 PM
Bob Lilly was a force to be reckoned with. He faced double and triple teams every game.


but I just don't see him as a game-breaker.

:confused:

I really don't know how to respond to that.

MiamiDolfans
06-01-2005, 07:16 AM
Bob Lilly was a force to be reckoned with. He faced double and triple teams every game.



:confused:

I really don't know how to respond to that.

and the others hadn't? The difference is their effectiveness even when double and triple teamed. This can't just be credited to the player though, alot of that falls on the coaches playcalling, and his ability to utilize the free men.

20.J.G.18
06-01-2005, 11:46 AM
Kid, you are 15. How much of Bob Lilly did you see? I'm old enough to have seen him play and listen to me, Bob Lilly was a dominant player. He was arguably THE best player in the NFL on the defensive side of the ball in the 1960's. Your a Dolphin fan, pop in a tape of Superbowl 6. Lilly was a monster.

Dan Hampton is a borderline HOF'er-I honestly don't think he belongs. He's no better then say, Dave Butz.

He's not on the same planet as Lilly. Sorry.

20.J.G.18
06-01-2005, 11:50 AM
...But don't take my word for it. Here is his profile from TSN 100 Greatest Players. He is ranked #10:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/100/10.html


He is known affectionately as Mr. Cowboy -- the first draft pick in Dallas franchise history, the team's first All-Pro, first Pro Bowl selection, first Ring of Honor member and first Hall of Famer. But Bob Lilly also is known in many football circles as the greatest defensive tackle ever to put on a uniform, the centerpiece for the late-1960s Doomsday defenses that helped an expansion team reach championship heights.

Lilly was a 6-5, 260-pound time bomb that exploded into furious action every time the ball was snapped. Nobody his size could match the combination of incredible strength and quickness that allowed him to fight through blocks, chase down ballcarriers from sideline-to-sideline and pressure quarterbacks into errant throws. Double- and triple-team blocking schemes failed to neutralize Lilly's furious rush and many a competent blocker was brushed aside like a giant gnat.

An All-American at Texas Christian University, Lilly was the foundation upon which an expansion powerhouse was built. He arrived in 1961 with his sleepy, country-boy looks and began a 14-season run in which he never missed a regular-season game while earning 11 Pro Bowl selections and a remarkable eight All-NFL citations.

Lilly was a student of the game, a player who constantly studied film and worked to improve his technique. What he might have lacked in intensity he more than made up for with hard work and a desire to be the best. As the team's talent level rose quickly in the mid-1960s, so did his championship hopes -- aspirations that were fulfilled with six NFL/NFC title game appearances, two Super Bowl appearances and a championship after the 1971 season.