Does It Have to be a Business?

shouright · 12-29-2005, 12:04 AM

http://www.finheaven.com/

Quote:

"Every year you hear players at this time of year saying, 'This may be the last time we're together. Let's enjoy this one and have a good one,"' defensive tackle Vonnie Holliday said. "We're trying to put six wins in a row together, so we're trying to go out with a bang.

"It's just that time of year. Guys understand the business."

I may be too sentimental, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to keep this team relatively similar into next year because of the way it's come together as of late. Lots of people are talking about big-time personnel changes, but I've been wondering recently if it might be better to keep this thing going by keeping the core of players we have now. This certainly looks like a good TEAM to me (think of the meaning of the word), and why not keep it as it is?

The other thing is that, and this is really important, if Saban ever really wants his words to mean anything to the players, he has to follow through on them. If he says in a press conference that he's using the rest of the season to evaluate players, he has to KEEP the players if they start playing well enough to win consistently. If he gets rid of a huge portion of these guys it'll cause a locker room revolt to an extent I believe. If he keeps them he will have endeared himself to these guys in such a way that I think they'll ALWAYS give 110% for him as long as they're here.

Thoughts?

dolphan8055 · 12-29-2005, 12:08 AM

I agree to an extent...keep the core guys around we arent going to be 6-0 on our last six games for nothing. I will though IMO dissagree when it comes to a better secondary and defenitly a QB change with a vet not a freshly drafted Player. Mark my words if we do this, Teams will hate to play us.

Also keep Ricky and Ronnie

sbh1602 · 12-29-2005, 01:48 AM

I've always held this belief. Players indeed would grow closer to a team if they knew the team had their backs, and this would translate into better quality of play.

After the Patriots, however, I don't know what to think. It's that damn sweat, I tell you...

tommybobommy · 12-29-2005, 03:01 AM

As long as the centerpieces on D stay .. JT and Zt and crowder.. i believe any of the other guys could be interchangable and it would have the same tone

Maynard the Hammer · 12-29-2005, 03:10 AM

i would not want to see carter or holliday go. they are perfect team and character guys. you couldnt ask for two better guys to be tutors to the fins 3 young d-lineman. they need to be there to keep wright's head on straight and build confidence in vickerson and roth. i already think they have rubbed off on manny

they feel like they could be part of something special and i think they can be.

nopony · 12-29-2005, 03:16 AM

This is not a Superbowl team. It's not even really that close to a Superbowl team yet.

There are many positions that need to be upgraded. Some that have to go and some that need to be brought in.

Also, everybody ages. Skills change. Some people get better and some, through no fault of their own, get worse. Even if we were good enough to lost in the division championships we would need to make changes.

I just watched a painful object lesson in this in baseball. My beloved Seattle Mariners were world class in 2001. They tied the all-time record for regular season victories... a record set over eighty years ago.

But even in the middle of that season they had weaknesses... they needed to make a trade at the deadline to fill in the cracks in their armor.

They didn't... saying the same things that your post says. And they lost in the playoffs. One of the greatest regular season teams in history didn't even get to the world series.

they came back next year with the same core group, cosmetic changes only... and they were worse... one year later they were one of the worst teams in baseball. And they still are.

You have to grow to stay competitive. You have to. You know who knows this better than anybody? Bill Belichek.

And, at any rate, this team isn[t nearly good enough to even worry about that yet. They HAVE to get a quarterback... they have to fix the secondary... the o-line needs to acheive greatness... Houck did amazingly with loose parts... but give him the players and the line can be memorable...

There are a few postions we are rock-solid at... but not most. We can get better. And Saban will make it happen.

PHINANALYST · 12-29-2005, 06:49 AM

This team NEEDS some changes ....

It NEEDS 1 or 2 more impact LBs ....

It NEEDS at least 1 impact SAFETY ...

It NEEDS at least an above average CENTER ...

It would be NICE to upgrade the QB ... but not a NEED ... [but we DO need to find the QB of '07-'09+ this year]

It would be NICE to upgrade at WR .... but not a NEED ...

It would be NICE to upgrade either G or T ... but not a NEED ...

Our upgrades at DT are already on the team.

Bottom Line is that next years roster will not be SIGNIFICANTLY different from this years -- but it NEEDS to have some changes in order to make this a solid playoff team.

Most of the changes will be in depth - rather than starters ... but at least 25% of the roster will change next year.

BlueFin · 12-29-2005, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shouright

http://www.finheaven.com/

I may be too sentimental, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to keep this team relatively similar into next year because of the way it's come together as of late. Lots of people are talking about big-time personnel changes, but I've been wondering recently if it might be better to keep this thing going by keeping the core of players we have now. This certainly looks like a good TEAM to me (think of the meaning of the word), and why not keep it as it is?

The other thing is that, and this is really important, if Saban ever really wants his words to mean anything to the players, he has to follow through on them. If he says in a press conference that he's using the rest of the season to evaluate players, he has to KEEP the players if they start playing well enough to win consistently. If he gets rid of a huge portion of these guys it'll cause a locker room revolt to an extent I believe. If he keeps them he will have endeared himself to these guys in such a way that I think they'll ALWAYS give 110% for him as long as they're here.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are, it seems more than apparent Saban knows what he is doing and really doesn't need amatuer advice about his philosophy in building a championship team.

My other thought is, maybe we fans need to listen to the media with a little less seriousness, considering the fact that they have absolutely no idea what changes Saban is really going to make, and are simply speculating in the blind.

Finally, its become clear the 1972 Dolphins haven't held back the 2005 Dolphins from winning 5 in a row.

BALLS DEEP · 12-29-2005, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shouright

http://www.finheaven.com/

I may be too sentimental, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to keep this team relatively similar into next year because of the way it's come together as of late. Lots of people are talking about big-time personnel changes, but I've been wondering recently if it might be better to keep this thing going by keeping the core of players we have now. This certainly looks like a good TEAM to me (think of the meaning of the word), and why not keep it as it is?

The other thing is that, and this is really important, if Saban ever really wants his words to mean anything to the players, he has to follow through on them. If he says in a press conference that he's using the rest of the season to evaluate players, he has to KEEP the players if they start playing well enough to win consistently. If he gets rid of a huge portion of these guys it'll cause a locker room revolt to an extent I believe. If he keeps them he will have endeared himself to these guys in such a way that I think they'll ALWAYS give 110% for him as long as they're here.

Thoughts?

Yes it does because it is. Saban will keep his word and evaluate. But, he'll also not hesitate a second to better his team. It's not about '05 or '06. It's about puting a team together that can win a championship. A coaches # 1 job is tinkering with the roster. He wasn't brought here to start a family ya know?

shouright · 12-29-2005, 09:29 AM

I think the distinguishing thing for me is whether bona fide leaders have developed on the team this year. If so, then I think it would be foolish to bring in players who have the kind of stature to be viewed as immediate leaders on the team. That was the big mistake in signing Cris Carter when we were 5-1 and had just beaten Denver in a tough road game and showed the kind of character that Super Bowl teams have. I think bringing in Carter disintegrated (think of the meaning of the word) the team's leadership structure at the time.

Now if we haven't developed bona fide leaders, then sure, bring some in. But if we have, then I'd say keep what we have and add peripheral players in terms of leadership. That doesn't mean we can't add a good, young QB.

shouright · 12-29-2005, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BALLS DEEP

Yes it does because it is. Saban will keep his word and evaluate. But, he'll also not hesitate a second to better his team. It's not about '05 or '06. It's about puting a team together that can win a championship. A coaches # 1 job is tinkering with the roster. He wasn't brought here to start a family ya know?

I agree that he wasn't brought in to start a family, but I also think that teams that are able to have dynasties (New England, Dallas, etc.) have that kind of feel to them among the players. And I think how Saban handles this offseason in terms of personnel changes will go a long way toward either creating or not creating that kind of team atmosphere.

And Ricky (who has his finger on the pulse of stuff like this IMO) has already said something to the effect of "this is the closest team I've ever been on," so I don't want to go into the offseason and destroy that.

Psychosikes · 12-29-2005, 09:35 AM

"I just watched a painful object lesson in this in baseball. My beloved Seattle Mariners were world class in 2001. They tied the all-time record for regular season victories... a record set over eighty years ago."

Another Dolphin/Mariner fan?!?!?! I thought I was the only one!

shouright · 12-29-2005, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueFin

My thoughts are, it seems more than apparent Saban knows what he is doing and really doesn't need amatuer advice about his philosophy in building a championship team.

My other thought is, maybe we fans need to listen to the media with a little less seriousness, considering the fact that they have absolutely no idea what changes Saban is really going to make, and are simply speculating in the blind.

Finally, its become clear the 1972 Dolphins haven't held back the 2005 Dolphins from winning 5 in a row.

Right, but they may have held them back from a Super Bowl since 1973, but let's leave that for another thread.

And if Saban knows what he's doing like you say and just so happens to be following my advice here, then he's going against about 95% of the Finheaven membership from what I've seen. It seems that almost everybody wants a ton of personnel changes in the offseason, so I think this is definitely a different way of looking at things. And if 95% of the Finheaven membership thinks there should be huge changes, then there's a good chance Saban does too, and all I'm saying is that that may be a mistake.

BALLS DEEP · 12-29-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shouright

I agree that he wasn't brought in to start a family, but I also think that teams that are able to have dynasties (New England, Dallas, etc.) have that kind of feel to them among the players. And I think how Saban handles this offseason in terms of personnel changes will go a long way toward either creating or not creating that kind of team atmosphere.

And Ricky (who has his finger on the pulse of stuff like this IMO) has already said something to the effect of "this is the closest team I've ever been on," so I don't want to go into the offseason and destroy that.

Good point. But, I see at least 10 new players on the 53 man roster in '06. Madison (gone or re-structured and moved to make way for Poole). Seau's gone. Mckinney's gone. We're going to lose at least one safety maybe Schulters? Howard's gone (and good riddance but i'll miss his CB blitzes!). Boston's gone. I see Eddie Moore being shown the door too.

On top of this, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mare restructured.

finfan54 · 12-29-2005, 02:43 PM

People, dont get caught up in what the media says. They point out the obvious and then put peoples names in there that dont make any sense right now. Saban doesnt have a clue yet what he will do with certain guys including Traylor because they havent had time to think about the possibilities of guys staying or going. They are thinking winning football games. The media doesnt have a clue who is staying or going.

12-29-2005, 12:08 AM	#2
dolphan8055 Team Talent Evaluator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ft Myers Age: 24 Posts: 256 Thanks: 2 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	I agree to an extent...keep the core guys around we arent going to be 6-0 on our last six games for nothing. I will though IMO dissagree when it comes to a better secondary and defenitly a QB change with a vet not a freshly drafted Player. Mark my words if we do this, Teams will hate to play us. Also keep Ricky and Ronnie __________________ 2008 THE ENTRANCE OF THE CHAMPS

12-29-2005, 01:48 AM	#3
sbh1602 Playoffs? Playoffs?! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mexico City, Mexico Age: 77 Posts: 583 Thanks: 16 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	I've always held this belief. Players indeed would grow closer to a team if they knew the team had their backs, and this would translate into better quality of play. After the Patriots, however, I don't know what to think. It's that damn sweat, I tell you... __________________ Looking forward, yet again...

12-29-2005, 03:01 AM	#4
tommybobommy Seasoned Veteran Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 611 Thanks: 0 Thanked 23 Times in 7 Posts	As long as the centerpieces on D stay .. JT and Zt and crowder.. i believe any of the other guys could be interchangable and it would have the same tone __________________

12-29-2005, 03:10 AM	#5
Maynard the Hammer you are the nail Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: on shadowfax Posts: 10,680 Thanks: 25 Thanked 45 Times in 35 Posts	i would not want to see carter or holliday go. they are perfect team and character guys. you couldnt ask for two better guys to be tutors to the fins 3 young d-lineman. they need to be there to keep wright's head on straight and build confidence in vickerson and roth. i already think they have rubbed off on manny they feel like they could be part of something special and i think they can be. __________________ special thanks to in flames for the avatar and sig

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12-29-2005, 03:16 AM	#6
nopony Pro Bowler Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,143 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is not a Superbowl team. It's not even really that close to a Superbowl team yet. There are many positions that need to be upgraded. Some that have to go and some that need to be brought in. Also, everybody ages. Skills change. Some people get better and some, through no fault of their own, get worse. Even if we were good enough to lost in the division championships we would need to make changes. I just watched a painful object lesson in this in baseball. My beloved Seattle Mariners were world class in 2001. They tied the all-time record for regular season victories... a record set over eighty years ago. But even in the middle of that season they had weaknesses... they needed to make a trade at the deadline to fill in the cracks in their armor. They didn't... saying the same things that your post says. And they lost in the playoffs. One of the greatest regular season teams in history didn't even get to the world series. they came back next year with the same core group, cosmetic changes only... and they were worse... one year later they were one of the worst teams in baseball. And they still are. You have to grow to stay competitive. You have to. You know who knows this better than anybody? Bill Belichek. And, at any rate, this team isn[t nearly good enough to even worry about that yet. They HAVE to get a quarterback... they have to fix the secondary... the o-line needs to acheive greatness... Houck did amazingly with loose parts... but give him the players and the line can be memorable... There are a few postions we are rock-solid at... but not most. We can get better. And Saban will make it happen.

12-29-2005, 06:49 AM	#7
PHINANALYST Seasoned Veteran Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North Carolina Age: 43 Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	This team NEEDS some changes .... It NEEDS 1 or 2 more impact LBs .... It NEEDS at least 1 impact SAFETY ... It NEEDS at least an above average CENTER ... It would be NICE to upgrade the QB ... but not a NEED ... [but we DO need to find the QB of '07-'09+ this year] It would be NICE to upgrade at WR .... but not a NEED ... It would be NICE to upgrade either G or T ... but not a NEED ... Our upgrades at DT are already on the team. Bottom Line is that next years roster will not be SIGNIFICANTLY different from this years -- but it NEEDS to have some changes in order to make this a solid playoff team. Most of the changes will be in depth - rather than starters ... but at least 25% of the roster will change next year.

12-29-2005, 09:29 AM	#10
shouright On the CHRIS Long Bandwagon Join Date: May 2004 Age: 36 Posts: 9,381 Thanks: 450 Thanked 310 Times in 116 Posts FH Badges Total Awards: 1	I think the distinguishing thing for me is whether bona fide leaders have developed on the team this year. If so, then I think it would be foolish to bring in players who have the kind of stature to be viewed as immediate leaders on the team. That was the big mistake in signing Cris Carter when we were 5-1 and had just beaten Denver in a tough road game and showed the kind of character that Super Bowl teams have. I think bringing in Carter disintegrated (think of the meaning of the word) the team's leadership structure at the time. Now if we haven't developed bona fide leaders, then sure, bring some in. But if we have, then I'd say keep what we have and add peripheral players in terms of leadership. That doesn't mean we can't add a good, young QB.

12-29-2005, 09:35 AM	#12
Psychosikes Ninja Join Date: May 2005 Age: 25 Posts: 198 Thanks: 6 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	"I just watched a painful object lesson in this in baseball. My beloved Seattle Mariners were world class in 2001. They tied the all-time record for regular season victories... a record set over eighty years ago." Another Dolphin/Mariner fan?!?!?! I thought I was the only one!

12-29-2005, 02:43 PM	#15
finfan54 Zachattack Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRAPCHESTER Posts: 12,478 Thanks: 0 Thanked 41 Times in 33 Posts	People, dont get caught up in what the media says. They point out the obvious and then put peoples names in there that dont make any sense right now. Saban doesnt have a clue yet what he will do with certain guys including Traylor because they havent had time to think about the possibilities of guys staying or going. They are thinking winning football games. The media doesnt have a clue who is staying or going.