Shanahan has only ridden Elway's coat tails.

[fin-atic]

Why does everyone give Mike Shanahan so much credit? The guy was terrible as the Raiders Coach. He then get's to Denver and takes Dan Reeves' team to the Super Bowl and wins. But that was more Elway than Shanahan.

Now when Johnny boy hangs them up, old Mike can't seem to win again.

I think the problem in Denver is not the talent or the players. I think it starts with the Coaching staff.

I think he and Brian Billick have spent to much time reading those "offensive genuis" clippings.

[Penthos]

100% agree with that...

[FinsGoToGuy]

I agree with that. And you can make a case about Mike Martz too.

Shanahan had Elway at QB and Davis at RB with one hell of a offensive line. They haven't been the same since Elway retired even tough they had many good years from their running backs.

Mike Martz had one of the best arsenal in the history. With Faulk or Warner injured, they're not the same team.

The bottom line is that the coach is as good as its player.

As for Gruden, he's the best coach right now but he won with one of the greatest defense in the history.

Bellichick did it with no great players with the Pats, now that's something.

[FinsGoToGuy]

Sorry Martz wasn't the coach the year that St-Louis has won, but he still has been described has an offensive mastermind, but everybody can be with that group of players.

[phinphan]

Originally posted by fin-atic
Why does everyone give Mike Shanahan so much credit? The guy was terrible as the Raiders Coach. He then get's to Denver and takes Dan Reeves' team to the Super Bowl and wins. But that was more Elway than Shanahan.

Now when Johnny boy hangs them up, old Mike can't seem to win again.

I think the problem in Denver is not the talent or the players. I think it starts with the Coaching staff.

I think he and Brian Billick have spent to much time reading those "offensive genuis" clippings.

First off, I think that this is more a topic for the General NFL section.

Winning two Superbowls is pretty impressive. Shula couldn't do it for most of Danny's career, so does that make Don a bad coach?? Shanahan also found a lot of players with low draft picks, and free agents, and as other teams cast offs. Observe:-

Rod Smith - undrafted
Ed McCaffrey - unwanted by SF
Terrell Davis 6th rd pick
Bill Romanowski - FA from Philly
Tyrone Braxton - Not resigned by the Phins

That is just a few names of the top of my head. Infact, you could argue that John Elway couldn't win a superbowl without Mike Shanahan. IMHO, it cuts both ways.

[phinphan]

Originally posted by FinsGoToGuy
I agree with that. And you can make a case about Mike Martz too.

Shanahan had Elway at QB and Davis at RB with one hell of a offensive line. They haven't been the same since Elway retired even tough they had many good years from their running backs.

The offensive line has always had pretty average talent, and is enhanced by the scheme....a scheme which is employed by Shanahan. Davis was indeed a great RB, one who was drafted by...........yup, Mike shanahan.

In addition, an aging and injury prone offensive cast hasn't helped. Look at Sharpe, Davis, McCaffrey...they have either been injured, are getting quite old, or have retired/spent time with other teams.

I think that this is a little harsh on Shanahan. Losing a Hall of Fame QB hurts the team?? Now there is revelation.

[fin-atic]

I think with the pending Griese trade, this is very appropriate topic.

Shula won with a lot less talent than Shannahan was given.
For all his success in bringing those guys in, Shanahan was not able to win with them when Elway left. So who was it really?

I just believe the guy is overrated.

[phinphan]

Shanahan has not won a Superbowl in four years, hardly major failure. During that period, he has only had one losing season Not winning the Superbowl in that time, when he has had to cope with losing Davis as well, and Sharpe, and injury to McCaffrey is not that bad.

You say that Shula won with a lot less talent. Well, Shanahan "assembled" most of that talent, and was not "given" everything. Shula won, shanahan has won. The difference is that Shanahan won two Superbowls during about five years of having Elway..while Shula had Marino for 13 years and still couldn't manage it. Infact, in '95 the Phins had the most talented team in the league, and still couldn't win it all. Shula had some very talented players during his tenure. The main difference is, that Shanahan managed to find the ingredients to compliment Elway, while Shula just relied on Marino to carry the team.

[Bodzilla29]

norv turner must be overrated as well by your logic....because without all his talent in dallas he has won NOTIHNG......can you find anybody here who thinks norv is overrated? NO!

and for the rams' remark.....because faulk and warner gets hurt martz is overrated because he doesn't put up the same numbers without 2 SUPER STAR MVP players who the offense is BUILT AROUND???? you take ricky and jay away from our team and you expect norv to look as good? hell no! if you lose stars you cannot bring the same firepower.... faulk and warner are arguably the 2 most dominating players of this era, losing them is CATASTROPHIC.....to knock martz for lowered production without his 2 best players is laughable....

[feelnoway]

Being able to assemble talent and coaching a team aren't the same thing. Shanahan stepped up to HC after his offense had already been put in place and used for awhile. He needed Elway without a doubt. Then again, if Greise is so talented (as so many assert) why can't Shanahan coach him? As for Don Shula, I couldn't disagree more that he "just relied on Marino to carry the team". Shula, as most HC's will do built the offense to emphasize our strength-the passing game. But every year Shula was working on trying to give us a running game and defense. It just didn't happen. When I think of any standouts on the team, other than those involved in the passing offense (in Marino's prime) most had short careers for one reason or another.???

[WharfRat]

It really does belong in General NFL....

[feelnoway]

Regarding the remark concerning Martz; I agree, as well. Martz inherited a team the Dick Vermeil took to the SB. Martz as a HC is over rated. As an offensive coordinator was excellent. Was Barry Switzer a great HC? Emphatically NO!! He inherited a team full of talent and knew exactly what they were doing.

[fin-atic]

Noprv Tuyrner is nto a good head coach. I don't think he has had any success?

I am not saying Shannahan stinks., I am just saying that everyone who goes on and on about how great he is and what an offensive genuis he is, I don't agree. His history is just not that impressive.

No one has answered the Raider history. or explained his inability to win with the same talent after John Elway, or to win since.

I think this is relevent to current Dolphin news. Should not have been moved. While many are blaming Griese for the team's success in Denver, there is more blame to be shared.

JMO

[FinsGoToGuy]

Norv Turner is a great offensive mind but he was bad as an head coach in Washington and I don't remember him as an head coach in Dallas.