So Jon Gruden is a great coach because ......

DolphinVJ · 10-07-2003, 11:36 AM

he resurrected the Raiders for a while, went to Tampa Bay took them to the next level and won a championship, is 0-2 at home this year including giving up 28 points in the last 4 minutes with one of the best defenses ever at home coming off of a bye week.

The point is coaching is way overrated both in terms of credit and blame. Just ask Dave Wannstedt

minus · 10-07-2003, 11:38 AM

True....

davster82 · 10-07-2003, 11:41 AM

How many great coaches haven't won a Super Bowl. Name a few.

DolphinVJ · 10-07-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

How many great coaches haven't won a Super Bowl. Name a few.

Bill Cowher and Dan Reeves come to mind who are perceived as great coaches by fans and media.

How many great coaches have blown 21-28 points in the last 4 minutes of a game and lost? Name a few.

davster82 · 10-07-2003, 11:55 AM

How many not great coaches have won a SuperBowl.

davster82 · 10-07-2003, 11:56 AM

I bet almost every coach at some point in his career has blown some pretty big leads. Maybe not 28 points in 4 minutes. It's a learning process.

DolphinVJ · 10-07-2003, 12:02 PM

Quote:

How many not great coaches have won a SuperBowl.

Quite a few actually. Brian Billick, Bill Bellichek (sp ?) a great defensive coordinator who was constantly hammered in Cleveland and N.E. for being a dumb Head Coach before he won one, and George Siefert come to mind instantly.

It takes more than a coach to win Championships.

PhinPhreak · 10-07-2003, 12:05 PM

Hey you are forgetting the one of the worst coaches to win a SB, Barry Switzer. I think the cowboys won it that year in spite of him, and of course with a little help from good ole Neil.

DolphinzD · 10-07-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DolphinVJ

Quite a few actually. Brian Billick, Bill Bellichek (sp ?) a great defensive coordinator who was constantly hammered in Cleveland and N.E. for being a dumb Head Coach before he won one, and George Siefert come to mind instantly.

It takes more than a coach to win Championships.

I'm not sure I would call George Seifert a "not great" coach.....sure, he's probably not one of the best, but he did do a good job in San Francisco. Sure, he didn't do much in Carolina, but that doesn't diminish what he did with the Niners.

Belichick is a great defensive mastermind who was fortunate enough to win a Super Bowl. His expertise is clearly as a coordinator, but I think he's a pretty good coach too.....not sure how long he was in Cleveland but that team was terrible when he took over and he got them to a play-off birth within the first couple of years.

I totally agree about Billick though. I still remember his joke of a gameplan as offensive coordinator for the Vikings in the 1998 NFC Championship Game against the Falcons. There was NO way Minnesota should have lost that game. And this so-called offensive genius has an offense that is even more stone-age than Carolina's. Seriously, is there ANYONE on that offense that scares you besides possibly Jamal Lewis? You could say Heap, but he needs a real quarterback to throw him the ball. The Ravens suck and are probably the most overrated team in football. They're only in first because the rest of their division sucks too.

Muck · 10-07-2003, 12:27 PM

Gruden is still a great coach. Probably the best in the league (up there with Vermeil IMO). Players play. Coaches coach. Indy simply out-executed Tampa in the 4th quarter. LATE in the 4th quarter.

You could say, "Well, Tampa had some guys get hurt on defense". And I could say, "Edgerrin James never even suited up".

Muck · 10-07-2003, 12:33 PM

Billick. Such an offensive guru that he let Priest Holmes get away for nothing. The very next year, he explodes. He couldn't even see the talent he had. Jamal Lewis is a beast. But drafting him meant giving up on Holmes.

Such a guru that he hasn't gone a single season in Baltimore without changing starting QBs. Never even a QB rollover.

Marvin Lewis and Ozzy Newsome won that Super Bowl.

DolphinzD · 10-07-2003, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muck
Billick. Such an offensive guru that he let Priest Holmes get away for nothing. The very next year, he explodes. He couldn't even see the talent he had. Jamal Lewis is a beast. But drafting him meant giving up on Holmes.

Such a guru that he hasn't gone a single season in Baltimore without changing starting QBs. Never even a QB rollover.

Marvin Lewis and Ozzy Newsome won that Super Bowl.

AMEN!!!!!

ckparrothead · 10-07-2003, 01:32 PM

One loss doesn't define a coach's career, especially one who had been to the AFC Championship game like twice with the Raiders and then won a Super Bowl with his next team.

But still last night you saw fire vs ice...and ice won. Peyton said they were able to come back because Dungy kept them calm and on an even keel so that they could just concentrate and work the offense. Meanwhile Gruden was so infuriated with the way Indy was moving the ball and then with that onside kick which Indy recovered, his "fiery demeanor" which people on this board wish Dave Wannstedt had, kept him from being able to calm his players and let them play their game. It showed with the stupid a$$ penalties like roughing the passer, that one that Kenyatta Walker had that stopped the clock at a crucial moment, etc. Gruden and his fiery demeanor LOST HIS TEAM last night...and he did it while failing to close out a game, the biggest knock on Dave Wannstedt

10-07-2003, 11:41 AM	#3
davster82 Pro Bowler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Central Mississippi Age: 44 Posts: 1,119 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	How many great coaches haven't won a Super Bowl. Name a few. __________________ There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't. 3 out of 2 people have trouble with math.

10-07-2003, 11:55 AM	#5
davster82 Pro Bowler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Central Mississippi Age: 44 Posts: 1,119 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	How many not great coaches have won a SuperBowl. __________________ There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't. 3 out of 2 people have trouble with math.

10-07-2003, 11:56 AM	#6
davster82 Pro Bowler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Central Mississippi Age: 44 Posts: 1,119 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I bet almost every coach at some point in his career has blown some pretty big leads. Maybe not 28 points in 4 minutes. It's a learning process. __________________ There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't. 3 out of 2 people have trouble with math.

10-07-2003, 12:05 PM	#8
PhinPhreak Perennial All-Pro Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 3,093 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Hey you are forgetting the one of the worst coaches to win a SB, Barry Switzer. I think the cowboys won it that year in spite of him, and of course with a little help from good ole Neil. __________________ Meet MiniPhreak [ October 2nd, 2003

10-07-2003, 12:27 PM	#10
Muck Now completely imaginary Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Elsewhere Age: 29 Posts: 30,186 Thanks: 47 Thanked 486 Times in 158 Posts FH Badges Total Awards: 1	Gruden is still a great coach. Probably the best in the league (up there with Vermeil IMO). Players play. Coaches coach. Indy simply out-executed Tampa in the 4th quarter. LATE in the 4th quarter. You could say, "Well, Tampa had some guys get hurt on defense". And I could say, "Edgerrin James never even suited up". __________________ Goodbye

10-07-2003, 11:38 AM	#2
minus Perennial All-Pro Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Miami Age: 24 Posts: 4,443 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	True....

10-07-2003, 12:33 PM	#11
Muck Now completely imaginary Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Elsewhere Age: 29 Posts: 30,186 Thanks: 47 Thanked 486 Times in 158 Posts FH Badges Total Awards: 1	Billick. Such an offensive guru that he let Priest Holmes get away for nothing. The very next year, he explodes. He couldn't even see the talent he had. Jamal Lewis is a beast. But drafting him meant giving up on Holmes. Such a guru that he hasn't gone a single season in Baltimore without changing starting QBs. Never even a QB rollover. Marvin Lewis and Ozzy Newsome won that Super Bowl. __________________ Goodbye

10-07-2003, 01:32 PM	#13
ckparrothead Premium Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 32,876 Thanks: 16 Thanked 2,059 Times in 670 Posts FH Badges Total Awards: 1	One loss doesn't define a coach's career, especially one who had been to the AFC Championship game like twice with the Raiders and then won a Super Bowl with his next team. But still last night you saw fire vs ice...and ice won. Peyton said they were able to come back because Dungy kept them calm and on an even keel so that they could just concentrate and work the offense. Meanwhile Gruden was so infuriated with the way Indy was moving the ball and then with that onside kick which Indy recovered, his "fiery demeanor" which people on this board wish Dave Wannstedt had, kept him from being able to calm his players and let them play their game. It showed with the stupid a$$ penalties like roughing the passer, that one that Kenyatta Walker had that stopped the clock at a crucial moment, etc. Gruden and his fiery demeanor LOST HIS TEAM last night...and he did it while failing to close out a game, the biggest knock on Dave Wannstedt __________________ Good luck with the Skins, JT. You'll always be "Ozone" to me...

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