Jim Bates

[Dajesus]

Oh the quandry he has found himself in. He has what could be the best defense in the NFL, maybe if things work out the best D since the Ravens a few years ago. The money and the talent is there but the question is the coaching? Bates has had talent before, and proved he couldn't keep his players playing at their best, nor could he make the nessacary adjustments to stop powerfull offenses.

If the Dolphins do infact have an all time great defense this year there is no acculades comming Jim's way. Any DC should put up big numbers with this talent. If they waiver he will sign his walking papers.

I would honestly like to see Jim have little to do with the play on the feild. With Jr, Zach, Sam, Pat, Marrion, Bowens, Buckley, and most of all JT this team should be able to lead them selves to victory. I say stay the hell out of their way and let this group play ball.

[Muck]

It's not that he's a bad coach. He's the loudest and most enthusiastic coach we have. He's a wildman out there. Very involved. It's just his scheme sometimes. But things are supposed to change a bit this year. With Seau and Knight, they've got to. And Wayne Hizzy said so. So we'll see.

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by Dajesus
Oh the quandry he has found himself in. He has what could be the best defense in the NFL, maybe if things work out the best D since the Ravens a few years ago. The money and the talent is there but the question is the coaching? Bates has had talent before, and proved he couldn't keep his players playing at their best, nor could he make the nessacary adjustments to stop powerfull offenses.

If the Dolphins do infact have an all time great defense this year there is no acculades comming Jim's way. Any DC should put up big numbers with this talent. If they waiver he will sign his walking papers.

I would honestly like to see Jim have little to do with the play on the feild. With Jr, Zach, Sam, Pat, Marrion, Bowens, Buckley, and most of all JT this team should be able to lead them selves to victory. I say stay the hell out of their way and let this group play ball.

Bates is a very well respected coach in the NFL.....he also has been involved as most coaches are in the off season clinics, etc. I have never met him, but have been around people that know him. He is considered one of the leagues better DC by those that I've learned from over the past 18 years at clinics, etc. This defense didnt struggle because of anything he did or didnt do. The players didn't get it done on the field. PERIOD.
He was one of many coaches that were influenced by Wanny and JJ, etc. that are in leading NFL roles today.

The nature of JJ's 4-3 Defense, which Miami still uses, is a very aggressive Defense in its base. The Front 7 are in an attacking mode, it's not a relaxed read mode defense like some of the other 4-3 type defenses. The most common reads bring our DE's down the Line of scrimmage tight (in a "wrong-arm" technique) when OT's or TE block down, and the LB's into either a "Fit" (outside hip- off tackle) or "fill" inside a specified gap. Although there are many combo's of how fit and fill may work based on the front 4 alignment, its a very easy Defense to learn and run. But it's difficult to stop, especially if a team has two key ingredients.

First - The WOLB in this defense is supposed to be "The man" on Defense. In college, USC placed Sammy Knight at the WOLB spot because he was such an exceptional player. He had played the safety position in the same JJ 4-3 scheme at his HS (Rubidoux HS in So Cal). Having Rodgers (another player from my area - so I don't mean to rip him, as he played for a friend of mine Barry Meier at RCC) at WOLB just never really worked out. When he came out of ASU everyone in Miami's organization thought with his maturity and speed that he'd be the perfect WOLB in JJ's scheme. Unfortunetly, it never came into reality. Rodgers wasn't the kind of playmaker the JJ scheme needs at that position. He was steady, but the position calls for spectacular. Take for example some of the people that have played WOLB in Dallas, the other team that runs our scheme. Norton, Coakley, etc.....playmakers, speed, maybe the best players on those D's. That's why it might look this year like we are running a "more aggressive scheme", but in reality it's the same with a playmaker named Junior Seau at WOLB. Add to that Marion and Knight at SS and FS, two other important positions in this scheme, and we might have our best year ever at creating pressure and stopping the run.

Second - The SS and FS must be GREAT (not good) run stoppers in this Defense! Obviously the CB's need to be ok too, but it today's NFL it's more important for the CB's to be coverage studs. We have that. The Safeties in this scheme share outside contain responsibility (depending on the Defensive call and alignment) with the SOLB and WOLB. In other words, on one particular call and/ or read the SOLB might have contain on one side of the field, and the FS might have contain on the otherside - as well as flat responsibility against the pass. Or the OLB's could have contain in another call, or both Safeties could have contain in yet another. See, this defense mixes up it's contain responsibilities while also bringing outside pressure from DE (tight to LOS) and inside pressure. That is the treasure of the defense Dolfans. If you don't know who the contain man is (for sure) then it is very difficult to run outside, plus add in the fact that the OLB's are fast as heck, and the Safeties are run stuffers and you start to get the idea about why this defense is such a great one. It is a high pressure Defense even when no blitz is called.

Something I like to tell the kids I coach, when I was DC at another school running JJ's scheme, is this:
Just like it's been said over time that a team that runs the Option play PERFECTLY can't be stopped......this defense can't be blocked if it's ran PERFECTLY in terms of speed, aggressiveness, and duty. It is simply unstoppable. In my opinion as a coach trained by JJ's staff in Dallas (indirectly) , Greenwood and rodgers played not to give up big plays. However, in this scheme thats not how it should be played. The OLB and SS-FS need to be smart, aggressive players. Playmakers. I think Marion, Knight, Seau, and the winner of the battle at the SOLB this year will meet that description. BTW- When this Defense is going full steam there isnt a better scheme to watch in all Football IMO.

[Panther]

Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE


Bates is a very well respected coach in the NFL.....he also has been involved as most coaches are in the off season clinics, etc. I have never met him, but have been around people that know him. He is considered one of the leagues better DC by those that I've learned from over the past 18 years at clinics, etc. This defense didnt struggle because of anything he did or didnt do. The players didn't get it done on the field. PERIOD.
He was one of many coaches that were influenced by Wanny and JJ, etc. that are in leading NFL roles today.

The nature of JJ's 4-3 Defense, which Miami still uses, is a very aggressive Defense in its base. The Front 7 are in an attacking mode, it's not a relaxed read mode defense like some of the other 4-3 type defenses. The most common reads bring our DE's down the Line of scrimmage tight (in a "wrong-arm" technique) when OT's or TE block down, and the LB's into either a "Fit" (outside hip- off tackle) or "fill" inside a specified gap. Although there are many combo's of how fit and fill may work based on the front 4 alignment, its a very easy Defense to learn and run. But it's difficult to stop, especially if a team has two key ingredients.

First - The WOLB in this defense is supposed to be "The man" on Defense. In college, USC placed Sammy Knight at the WOLB spot because he was such an exceptional player. He had played the safety position in the same JJ 4-3 scheme at his HS (Rubidoux HS in So Cal). Having Rodgers (another player from my area - so I don't mean to rip him, as he played for a friend of mine Barry Meier at RCC) at WOLB just never really worked out. When he came out of ASU everyone in Miami's organization thought with his maturity and speed that he'd be the perfect WOLB in JJ's scheme. Unfortunetly, it never came into reality. Rodgers wasn't the kind of playmaker the JJ scheme needs at that position. He was steady, but the position calls for spectacular. Take for example some of the poeple that have played WOLB in Dallas, the other team that runs our scheme. Norton, Coakley, etc.....playmakers, speed, maybe the best players on those D's. That's why it might look this year like we are running a "more aggressive scheme", but in reality it's the same with a playmaker named Junior Seau at WOLB. Add to that Marion and Knight at SS and FS, two other important positions in this scheme, and we might have our best year ever at creating pressure and stopping the run.

Second - The SS and FS must be GREAT (not good) run stoppers in this Defense! Obviously the CB's need to be ok too, but it today's NFL it's more important for the CB's to be coverage studs. We have that. The Safeties in this scheme share outside contain responsibility (depending on the Defensive call and alignment) withg the SOLB and WOLB. In other words, on one particular call and/ or read the SOLB might have contain on one side of the field, and the FS might have contain on the otherside - as well as flat responsibility against the pass. Or the OLB's could have contain in anotrher call, or both Safetiens could have contain in yet another. See, this defense mixes up it's contain responsibilities while also bringing outside pressure from DE (tight to LOS) and inside pressure. That is the treasure of the defense Dolfans. If you don't know who contain man is (for sure) then it is very difficult to run outside, plus add in the fact that the OLB's are fast as heck, and the Safeties are run stuffers and you start to get the idea about why this defense is such a great one.

Something I like to tell the kids I coach, when I was DC at another school running JJ's scheme, is this:
Just like it's been said over time that a team that runs the Option play PERFECTLY can't be stopped......this defense can't be blocked if it's ran PERFECTLY in terms of speed, aggressiveness, and duty. It is simply unstoppable. In my opinion as a coach trained by J J's staff in Dallas (indirectly) , Greenwood and rodgers played not to give up big plays. However, in this scheme thats not how it should be played. The OLB and SS-FS need to be smart, aggressive players. Playmakers. I think Marion, Knight, Seau, and the winner of the battle at the SOLB this year will meet that description. BTW- When this Defense is going full steam there isnt a better scheme to watch in all Football IMO.

DolfanMike,


Could you explain how the secondary plays scheme-wise as far as press, zone, and man coverage? I really am a little confused on that.

Also, why can't our best cbs just follow the opponents best WR wherever they line up? I would greatly appreciate it.


Panther
:confused:

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by Panther



DolfanMike,


Could you explain how the secondary plays scheme-wise as far as press, zone, and man coverage? I really am a little confused on that.

Also, why can't our best cbs just follow the opponents best WR wherever they line up? I would greatly appreciate it.


Panther
:confused:

Dolfan,

I'll give it my best guess based on what I know about our scheme, but understand here and now I've not talked to any Fins staff or players about it (yet). I plan on talking to Sammy when or if an opportunity presents itself, but our relationship isn't one that I'd just call and ask. I don't have that type of relationship with him......but did coach where he played in HS and shared awards at RB with his older brother Ryan Knight in HS. We scrimmage his old HS this year in August, so I plan on asking his coaches if he mentioned what they are primarily running when he visits them...which should be soon.

As far as the coverage goes, it has been the thing that has changed most since Wanny took over from JJ. When JJ came in his first season our primary coverage was Cover 4, one of the least used coverages in Football today. It was also the base Defense where I used it at the HS I was DC at (Jurupa Valley HS). It's great because you can make it look like man or Cover 2, and get teams to audible out and try to take you deep thinking they are going against a player one on one, when in reality they are throwing into Double coverage (4 deep). It really works great, and that's why we had so many picks JJ's first year. They used Man as their next most coverage, usually in blitz situations, and occasionally used Cover 2.
By JJ's second year he began using primarily a Cover 2 man under scheme which really made our front a vanilla style of defense, as you are limited by about half of what you can do when in quarters (Cover 4). The Cover 2 man under focus has continued from what I've seen and has become our primary Defense even now. Specifically, the way Cover 2 limits us most (IMO) is that it puts deep coverage on the SS- FS who in quarters don't have such worry and responsibility deep, as the CB's in Quarters are playing a deep coverage. So in other words, the SS-FS can play harder against the run in Quarters, and knowledgable teams will try to beat quarters with play action off tackle, throwing middle routes like Deep in's, Posts, etc the catch the SS-FS cheating up. Thus the need for smart playmakers at those spots.....perfect for Marion and Knight.
So I see us running alot of Cover 2 nowadays....which really limits everything else we can do. But as with all things if we are good at it we can still have success. I suspect (purely a guess...nothing else) that we will begin running more Cover 4 (quarters) this season. I really hope that is the case, because then we can do lots more stuff to confuse the Offense.
Hope that helps.

[ckparrothead]

Definitely some great insight for DolfanMike. I don't think there's a poster around who he didn't just "school" with that analysis. For myself I'll just try and reconcile what he was saying with some of the other stuff I've heard about our defense.

Its just interesting to me that the OLB positions seem to be according to Mike, the ones where we need great playmakers. We haven't had a good playmaker at OLB since JJ arrived since Robert Jones back when he was performing well. Also interesting that he says we need our safeties to be great run stoppers, when it would seem anyway, that over the course of JJ's tenure he has preferred safeties who are converted from cornerback, and that preference continued all the way here in Miami, and the coverage preference continues today with Wannstedt (hence drafting Arturo Freeman, a CB converted to S).

Brian Walker, Calvin Jackson, Shawn Wooden, Arturo Freeman, and even Brock Marion...these are guys who have experience early at the corner position and who are largely considered to be coverage guys not run stoppers.

Any comment Mike?

[Panther]

Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE


Dolfan,

I'll give it my best guess based on what I know about our scheme, but understand here and now I've not talked to any Fins staff or players about it (yet). I plan on talking to Sammy when or if an opportunity presents itself, but our relationship isn't one that I'd just call and ask. I don't have that type of relationship with him......but did coach where he played in HS and shared awards at RB with his older brother Ryan Knight in HS. We scrimmage his old HS this year in August, so I plan on asking his coaches if he mentioned what they are primarily running when he visits them...which should be soon.

As far as the coverage goes, it has been the thing that has changed most since Wanny took over from JJ. When JJ came in his first season our primary coverage was Cover 4, one of the least used coverages in Football today. It was also the base Defense where I used it at the HS I was DC at (Jurupa Valley HS). It's great because you can make it look like man or Cover 2, and get teams to audible out and try to take you deep thinking they are going against a player one on one, when in reality they are throwing into Double coverage (4 deep). It really works great, and that's why we had so many picks JJ's first year. They used Man as their next most coverage, usually in blitz situations, and occasionally used Cover 2.
By JJ's second year he began using primarily a Cover 2 man under scheme which really made our front a vanilla style of defense, as you are limited by about half of what you can do when in quarters (Cover 4). The Cover 2 man under focus has continued from what I've seen and has become our primary Defense even now. Specifically, the way Cover 2 limits us most (IMO) is that it puts deep coverage on the SS- FS who in quarters don't have such worry and responsibility deep, as the CB's in Quarters are playing a deep coverage. So in other words, the SS-FS can play harder against the run in Quarters, and knowledgable teams will try to beat quarters with play action off tackle, throwing middle routes like Deep in's, Posts, etc the catch the SS-FS cheating up. Thus the need for smart playmakers at those spots.....perfect for Marion and Knight.
So I see us running alot of Cover 2 nowadays....which really limits everything else we can do. But as with all things if we are good at it we can still have success. I suspect (purely a guess...nothing else) that we will begin running more Cover 4 (quarters) this season. I really hope that is the case, because then we can do lots more stuff to confuse the Offense.
Hope that helps.

DolfanMike,

Great reply. Thanks. Only one thing, I don't understand. Please excuse my ignorance. Is cover 2 basically a zone? I believe that's what Tampa Bay does and I believe their corners are zone guys, not man to man. Am I wrong. Please break it down for us guys that know we cover them somehow.

My knowledge is this: zone is where a DB has a certain part of the field to cover. Man to Man is where you follow your responsibility (receiver) wherever he goes.

Can press coverage be zone or man?

Is double coverage the CB man to man on the WR with safety help?

What is cover 2?

What is cover 4?

Panther

[ckparrothead]

Stalker Walker was converted from Corner.

I'll leave the definitive answers to those questions to Mike however my best guesses would be as follows.

Press coverage CAN be zone or man. I've seen press zone...though it seems anyway, rarely.

I believe that cover 2 can be zone or man...and that is because I believe our CBs play primarily man press coverage underneath. They can peel off their man for a thrown ball or reading a QBs eyes, but thats it I think they are supposed to stay with their man. If this is not the case then someone needs to find about the 15 different tv analysts including Deion Sanders who've said that Surtain and Madison play "man to man all day long" and slap them upside the head.

And lastly to my knowledge, Tampa Bay plays Cover 2 zone.

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
Definitely some great insight for DolfanMike. I don't think there's a poster around who he didn't just "school" with that analysis. For myself I'll just try and reconcile what he was saying with some of the other stuff I've heard about our defense.

Its just interesting to me that the OLB positions seem to be according to Mike, the ones where we need great playmakers. We haven't had a good playmaker at OLB since JJ arrived since Robert Jones back when he was performing well. Also interesting that he says we need our safeties to be great run stoppers, when it would seem anyway, that over the course of JJ's tenure he has preferred safeties who are converted from cornerback, and that preference continued all the way here in Miami, and the coverage preference continues today with Wannstedt (hence drafting Arturo Freeman, a CB converted to S).

Brian Walker, Calvin Jackson, Shawn Wooden, Arturo Freeman, and even Brock Marion...these are guys who have experience early at the corner position and who are largely considered to be coverage guys not run stoppers.

Any comment Mike?

Well, we have had some bangers at FS or SS that you did mention.....Brian Walker will knock the piss out of a WR, Shawn Wooden hits well, and even Marion has had some big hits. But Sammy Knight will have his best year as a Pro this year or next IMO. He is perfect for our system IF we run less Cover 2......but who knows if that will really happen other than the Defensive staff. Knight will play well either way, but will be spectaular in a Quarters base....like the one he's ran since his Frosh year in HS.
I'm hoping for Quarters as our base......or More cover 3 with SS in flats on TE side.

In Dallas, JJ had some Big hitters. James Washington was a very good tackler (best on Dallas Super bowl Team after norton IMO) as I actually got to use their practice film and game film with my players through a JC friend (Cerritos JC DC Pat Calahan) that was discipling me (and he was being taught by Wanny and Butch Davis). Dallas also had Woodsen...one of the leagues best FS over the past 10 -15 years IMO. He's a thumper too. Once JJ left Dallas I think part of the Cowboys struggle was their failure to replace the studs with studs at SS.....

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by Panther



DolfanMike,

Great reply. Thanks. Only one thing, I don't understand. Please excuse my ignorance. Is cover 2 basically a zone? I believe that's what Tampa Bay does and I believe their corners are zone guys, not man to man. Am I wrong. Please break it down for us guys that know we cover them somehow.

My knowledge is this: zone is where a DB has a certain part of the field to cover. Man to Man is where you follow your responsibility (receiver) wherever he goes.

Can press coverage be zone or man?

Is double coverage the CB man to man on the WR with safety help?

What is cover 2?

What is cover 4?

Panther

Sorry Dolfan....sometime I forget the entire world isnt playing, coaching, or familiar with football lingo. So many of my work and personal conversations are football related!

ok..Here goes:

- Can press coverage be zone or man?
Press is usually associated with a tight, in your face man style of coverage. However, in Cover 4 (I'll get to later) you can line up in the face to make the Offense think they see man or Cover 2 (I'll get to later) and get them to throw the ball where they THINK is your weakness (every zone has a weakness) to actually throwing into your strength. As mentioned before, when JJ ran quarters alot in his first year we had a ton of picks that were a direct result of QB's not being able to read it. In HS football we make a living off teams and coaches not being familiar with it. My favorite is when a coach is screaming at his QB for not being able to beat that *&%$#@ cover 2 or man defense! Press is a physical in your face technique that guys like Madison, Surtain, etc thrive at....one of the best ever at Press was Oaklands Lester Hayes.

- Is double coverage the CB man to man on the WR with safety help?
Usually it is as you described, but if you have a OJ McDuffie type killing you underneath, it is possible to double a guy underneath with an LB, DE, CB, or S....not very often though.

-
What is cover 2?
Cover 2 means 2 Safeties deep 99% of the time. The SS and the FS split the field in "Half" thus the term Cover "2". Some teams will fiddle on occasion and use a CB in Cover 2 as a deep man (SS or FS blitz situation....but its a rare thing to see anything other than Safeties deep in Cover 2 with the CB's in either man or flats underneath. So in other words, in Miami's Defense a 4-3 cover 2 has two safeties deep with 5 players in the underneath area (CB's and LB's)...unless someone is blitzing.

- What is cover 4?
Cover 4 refers to splitting the field into 4 parts about 12 yards and further from where the Center snaps the ball so that you have all 4 DB's in deep coverage. In this scheme, the LB's have curl to flat. The weakness of this sytle Defense is any spot you blitz and in the extreme outside short flats.......in other words Quick outs are dangerous....so you work on destroying the WR after catching the quick out everyday.....and mix some cover two in to get your CB a pick or two if teams try to win on it. So in other owrds, Cover 4 has 4 players in deep coverage in equal "quarters" of the field (CB and S) while underneath there are 3 players (LB's) unless there is a blitz.

Hope that helps.

[Bodzilla29]

great, fantastic info my man....i have a question on DT responsibilities.....i know in our ystem that the DT have 1 main goal, and that is to keep interior lineman off of our LBs......hypothetically the oline can only double one of our DTs......so in essance the other DT is being single blocked......now does the DT that is being single blocked always have the option of trying to explode into the backfield or should he just tie up his man and let the LB try and make the play?......obviously if the ball carrier is close enough the DT makes the play(or at least tries to).....i guess my question really is, how much freedom do our DTs have?(to your knowledge of course)

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by Bodzilla29
great, fantastic info my man....i have a question on DT responsibilities.....i know in our ystem that the DT have 1 main goal, and that is to keep interior lineman off of our LBs......hypothetically the oline can only double one of our DTs......so in essance the other DT is being single blocked......now does the DT that is being single blocked always have the option of trying to explode into the backfield or should he just tie up his man and let the LB try and make the play?......obviously if the ball carrier is close enough the DT makes the play(or at least tries to).....i guess my question really is, how much freedom do our DTs have?(to your knowledge of course)

Bodzilla,

The way learned it was the very base Defense. So while I can answer your question keep in mind I didn't have Timbo or darryl, or Chester on my DL at DT! So I'm sure they have learned many, many more strategies and techniques than I'll list here.

Anyhow.....our primary focus was to penatrate the line of scrimmage and chase ball. We prefered to play our fastest DT on the 3 eye (Strongside OG outside shoulder and get him to "fly" through the gap). When you have a quality player there, he will get double teams most the game from the OG and OT on his side. However, the big boy on the one eye (inside the OG and Center Weakside) can also draw double teams if he's a stud. We usually put our big fat pig there and made a hard spot that would hopfully disrupt the OL and especially any pulling from the Weakside OG trying to go Strongside.

So the way I learned the base was it was a penatrating scheme aimed at disrupting the OL and stuffing the inside.

[BeatCrazy2]

Thanks for all the info DolfanMike ! From what you have described, I hope your right and they use the cover 4 more often. It seemed to me that the defense was too predictable last year . When the players got wore down towards the end and the other teams offense and staff started figuring things out, we were suddenly on our heels in crunch time and unable to make a play. A read a lot of posts saying that Knight didn't fit into our scheme. I thought he would fit in fine or maybe the scheme would adapt a little to Sammy's strengths. Either way , I hope we find a way to come up with more TO's this year and put some fear into WR's coming across the middle.

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by BeatCrazy2
Thanks for all the info DolfanMike ! From what you have described, I hope your right and they use the cover 4 more often. It seemed to me that the defense was too predictable last year . When the players got wore down towards the end and the other teams offense and staff started figuring things out, we were suddenly on our heels in crunch time and unable to make a play. A read a lot of posts saying that Knight didn't fit into our scheme. I thought he would fit in fine or maybe the scheme would adapt a little to Sammy's strengths. Either way , I hope we find a way to come up with more TO's this year and put some fear into WR's coming across the middle.

I'll really be shocked if we don't see a large ammount of turnovers come our way this year. We just have a really talented group, and they are in the perfect scheme. I know every year at this time I'm "optimistic" about our chaces, but usually I'm thinknig about winning the Division and competing in playoffs. This year I really am expecting bigger things. I also think regardless of if we win the Super Bowl or not, or even go to it that this will be a defining season for our coaches.