Saban's Defense

[CVass]

Originally Posted by arsenal

i used to konw about some of this stuff, but i thought the 30 or 40 or 50 was basically the same alignment as the 3 4 5 just off the line?

but do we even play an over and under 4-3 right now? i thought we played a straight up 4-3 with an open end...

You're right, the 30, 40, 50 alignments are the 3, 4, and 5 but off the line. We do not play a straight up 4-3 in any sense. Usually, 4-3 teams never play even techniques, and 3-4 teams never play odd techniques. In my assessment, I would classify what we play as an Over/Under 3-4. My reasoning for this is: (a) we only play 3 down lineman, (b) our NT plays a 0 technique (c) out of our other two lineman, one plays a 1 gap and the other plays a 2 depending on the call... the only person in a true 4-3 with two gap responsibility is the MLB. (d) we never sit in a true 3-4 which places the DEs directly over the tackles at the same time (4 tech).

Also, the reason Taylor is designated as OE instead of a ROLB which is traditionally the pass rusher in a 3-4 is because in the Over front, he's on the left. He switches sides unlike Joey Porter, Vrabel, Ware, etc. The quickest key to telling if we are in the Over or Under front is Taylor's position and stance. Usually, if he is on the left (from the defense's POV) and standing parrallel to the LOS, we are in the Over. He is on the right and titled we are in an Under call.

[CVass]

Originally Posted by PhinsPhan

Judging from what you have said I would put Carter at 5. He is smarter, more skilled and a better pass rusher than Holliday. I would think you would want him on the outside with the 2 gap responsibilty.

This also makes sense, Holliday would be a very effective lineman in this kind of system. If he was only given one gap assignment and just there to hold the line.

It seems as if this true and I agree with you, but the 1 gap responsibility means you rush and penetrate. This is because you have a LB behind you who also has one gap, so if there is a cut back, then you're safe. My hunches and the stats would indicate that Carter is a better pass rusher. If this is so, why would they put him in the line holding position.

[FinFan57]

I find this discussion fascinating. I have definetly learned something today. A few obvious questions.....How would you compare Saban's defensive scheme to Wanny's Are we the only NFL team using this over/under scheme and what are the advantages we have, in other words, what problems does this scheme present for opposing offenses?

[CVass]

Originally Posted by FinFan57

I find this discussion fascinating. I have definetly learned something today. A few obvious questions.....How would you compare Saban's defensive scheme to Wanny's Are we the only NFL team using this over/under scheme and what are the advantages we have, in other words, what problems does this scheme present for opposing offenses?

I'm glad this has been at least entertaining and educational for you all to read. I get sick of coming to this site and reading the CUT RONNIE! CUT HOWARD! threads, so I thought I would add something a little different...

First of all, Wanny's scheme is the old University of Miami stack 4-3 that Jimmy and him ran at the U, Dallas, and here. So the exact scheme that Wanny ran has been here since JJ first got here. The 4-3 that was run here had an aggressive attacking front where the DL would shoot the gaps. When you only have one gap, you can penetrate because you do not have to think about which side you need to go to. The DTs are big, bulky, and run stuffers and the DEs are speedy pass rush guys. The OLBs are generally good coverage guys with the MLB being a run stuffer. The key to this defense is that DTs occupy the line so the MLB can make most of the plays. The MLB is a sideline to sideline defender who by design, has most of the plays funneled to him. That is why in the UM 4-3, the MLB always has insane amounts of tackles vs. everyone else.

In Saban's D, you are closer to a true 3-4 by responsibility and alignment (which are mostly one in the same for easier teaching techniques) than a 4-3. The NT is always over the center and always two gap. In Saban's sytem, there is a lot of flip flopping vs. Wanny's directionally cemented positioning. The big thing for Saban is since he only has three down lineman, he can shoot a LB, S, or CB (called a "dog"). The advantage is with most 3-4's is that you don't know where the 4th rusher is coming from, or if there is even going to be a 4th rusher. By this law, you can always rush more than 4. In the 4-3, you can't surprise blitz as effective because you are bringing an extra guy which leaves a zone open, which means you are banking on the fact that you will get to the QB faster than he can recognize it and get the ball out. (Hence why Manning or Marino don't get sacked very often by 4-3 teams). Zone blitzing is also counter-productive by alignment. Why blitz an OLB and drop a DE in coverage. They are coming from the same spot and it is easier to pickup. So the answer to the advantage question would be surprise and flexibility. This also leads to complexity which is why you see the articles coming out about having trouble learning the D. The average defensive collegiate playbook: 50-100 pages... Saban's defensive collegiate playbook: about 350 pages

The advantage to our D over a standard 3-4 D is that one DL can rush the passer instead of just holding the line. Also, for our 3-4 undersized LBs, especially Zach, can operate in a bit of a 4-3 scheme. From what I have heard, he lines up behind a one gap D-lineman and is pretty guarded so he is able to make plays. If they run away from him, he can scrape the play and make the play since the other LB on the 30 side will be occupying a block.

As far other teams using Over/Under, there are teams that use it, but in the 4-3. Tampa runs Over and Under fronts as their primary fronts, but with 4 down lineman. Pretty much any 4-3 team that has a designated NT and an UT (Under Tackle) runs an Over and Under. I am guessing Oakland runs it just by its players. Last year they ran a 3-4, but not are back to a 4-3. However, they have Ted Washington (the prototypical NT) and Warren Sapp (the prototypical 3 technique/Under tackle).

[FinFan57]

Very impressive response. Thank you for the information. As you said, this is so much better than reading Ronnie is a Bust threads.

To summarize what I believe you are saying is that 1) Saban's defense is much more complex and complicated than what we've had here since JJ. It sounds like his play book is 3-4 times as large 2) The main advantage of Saban's defense is flexibility and surprise, which should give him an advantage on gameday, but also helps personnel-wise, because lesser players could be effective in this scheme, as opposed to Wanny's scheme, which really relied on talented players doing their jobs well all the time.

It sounds to me like the media is going to be looking closely at our defense and Saban will be regarded as the next guru.

[CRAZYDOLFAN305]

CV, I'm mad at you dog! You wait this long to share this info with me..I've been dying to get a lesson in Nick's playbook since the day we hired him. Anyways, you can make up for it by teaching us everything else you know about Nick's D..

[arsenal]

so wait in our formation you have the NT (WE or SE depending on the front) whos playing a 2 gap (both A gaps) then our other lineman all playing 1 gaps?

[BigDogsHunt]

So, how different is this 3-4 scheme than what NE uses, or Pittsburgh?

How different is this 3-4 approach to old-time 3-4 defenses?

Also, during the 71-73 SB campaigns that Miami put together, did they use a 3-4 back then? Just wondering if we are returning to our roots?

I too like this thread!

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Dolphins_SR66

So, how different is this 3-4 scheme than what NE uses, or Pittsburgh?

How different is this 3-4 approach to old-time 3-4 defenses?

Also, during the 71-73 SB campaigns that Miami put together, did they use a 3-4 back then? Just wondering if we are returning to our roots?

I too like this thread!

he'll probably be able to answer better, but i know in a 3-4 every lineman has a 2 gap assignment... and the try to take on lineman rather than shoot the gaps... what this thread seems to be saying is we have a 2 gap NT but 1 gappers at the other spots on the line... which would make sense why we can use a smallish holliday as a 1 gap DT with traylor as the 2 gap NT...

[alexwr4]

can somebody draw the defense? please? Thanks!

[Rich L]

Originally Posted by CVass

I have access to a LSU playbook and I have looked at it to see how it compares to the Miami one....

-Vass

Are you going off of the actual Miami playbook or schemes you been observing?!?!:confused:

From what I heard on this board... the Dolphins barely scratched the surface of their defensive playbook. Its kinda of scary to think that their defense could get alot better!

[CVass]

Originally Posted by Rich L

Are you going off of the actual Miami playbook or schemes you been observing?!?!:confused:

From what I heard on this board... the Dolphins barely scratched the surface of their defensive playbook. Its kinda of scary to think that their defense could get alot better!

I am simply comparing the LSU defensive playbook to the Miami one. Although I am speculating, I can sit with the playbook and see exactly what we run now.

[CRAZYDOLFAN305]

Originally Posted by CVass

I am simply comparing the LSU defensive playbook to the Miami one. Although I am speculating, I can sit with the playbook and see exactly what we run now.

Can I have a copy of the playbook? or where did you get it from..

[CVass]

[CVass]