Grading the AFCE draft

[Justasportsfan]

Originally Posted by nick1

I said most of the time idiot! Losman was a reach in the 1st round and he seems to be a bust

Losman is one player and you say "most of the time?" Seems to be doesn't mean he is. 8 games and he's a bust? DUH!! I don't think you should be calling anyone idiot. DUH!!!
By your logic, the kid you've been raving about , ROTH is a freakin bust. hasn't done squat in one season. DUH!!!


BTW, how long did it take Hasselback , Farve, Gannon to get where they were? DUH!!!

[Justasportsfan]

Interesting, after all the knee jerks after the draft, everyone is starting to change their mind about the bills' draft.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...uck/index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...bills/home.htm

[nick1]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

Losman is one player and you say "most of the time?" Seems to be doesn't mean he is. 8 games and he's a bust? DUH!! I don't think you should be calling anyone idiot. DUH!!!
By your logic, the kid you've been raving about , ROTH is a freakin bust. hasn't done squat in one season. DUH!!!


BTW, how long did it take Hasselback , Farve, Gannon to get where they were? DUH!!!

Parrish was a reach in the 2nd and you could argue that McGahee was also a reach. a 1st on an injured RB? no doubt he worked out but it was still a reach.

Losman has had a year to sit out and learn and a year to play. he was so bad that they benched him for Holcomb. you can't call him a bust but in my mind he is, he's not showing the progress he should be making.

I said most of the time good teams don't reach and most of the time the Pats don't reach. that was one time

[Justasportsfan]

Originally Posted by nick1

Parrish was a reach in the 2nd and you could argue that McGahee was also a reach. a 1st on an injured RB? no doubt he worked out but it was still a reach.

Losman has had a year to sit out and learn and a year to play. he was so bad that they benched him for Holcomb. you can't call him a bust but in my mind he is, he's not showing the progress he should be making.

I said most of the time good teams don't reach and most of the time the Pats don't reach. that was one time

WTF are you talking about Parrish was a reach? It was a very weak draft class and Parrish was picked where most people thought he'd be taken. You're making yourself look like an idiot.


Willis was BPA. DUH!!! Injured but BPA. In that case you guys also reached for Allen. DUH!!!!

Losman was a victim of bad coaching stupid. They never fixed the OL and fed him to the wolves. No one would've thrived with what we had . Not even Manning.

I'm done wasting my time with a kid like you who keeps yapping about things you know nothing about.

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

I'd gladly give up the best players on the team for high school players if it meant the bills winning the sb.


No one will argue that we reached. If reaching in the draft results in wins , they are not bad picks. Freeney and Seymour were bad picks by your logic. NOt.

Comparing Eddie Moore to Whitner is just stupid. Eddie Moore was a bust from day one.

I didn't compare Whitner to Moore. I compared the reaction of the Bills fans to the perceived reach for Moore and the perceived reach for Whitner. Reaching for Moore "was stupid no matter how he turns out" but reaching for Whitner is okay???? Typical.

Where was it ever said that Seymore was a reach?

NE selected Tom Brady in the 6th round. Would it have been just as good a selection if they drafted him in the first? No, because he was available later and they got more value for their pick. The goal in the draft is not just to get good players, it's to get good value.

If you agree that they were reaches, they you have to agree that the Bills didn't get good value for their picks. They are too poor of a team to waste draft picks. They should have two additional quality players.

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

Interesting, after all the knee jerks after the draft, everyone is starting to change their mind about the bills' draft.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...uck/index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...bills/home.htm

Everyone???? Right.....

Here is a quote about the Whitner pick from one of the links you provided:

Would have brought better value later in round one

That is exactly what the critics have been saying. Nobody is saying he will be a bad player, just that the Bills didn't get the value that they should have. Whitner was not the 8th best player in the draft. There were plenty of teams asking for Buffalo's 8th pick. They blew it.

[Mike13]

Then everybody talks about the "reach" in McCargo even though the Giants probably would have gone for him at 32, but were forced to take the end instead.

How can you be so sure? Many mock drafts were way off this year.

[Justasportsfan]

Originally Posted by FinfanInBuffalo

Reaching for Moore "was stupid no matter how he turns out" but reaching for Whitner is okay???? Typical. .

Whitner is a need, Eddie Moore wasn't. Supply and demand. Bills need certain players to fit their scheme, they grabbed the ones they wanted. How is that a bad pick. Besides when does one become a bad ppick even before they've even had a chance to play?

Originally Posted by FinfanInBuffalo

Where was it ever said that Seymore was a reach?

NE selected Tom Brady in the 6th round. Would it have been just as good a selection if they drafted him in the first? No, because he was available later and they got more value for their pick. The goal in the draft is not just to get good players, it's to get good value.

If you agree that they were reaches, they you have to agree that the Bills didn't get good value for their picks. They are too poor of a team to waste draft picks. They should have two additional quality players.

Yes, I've agreed that we reached but the value does not become evident until they've actually played.

What use is grabbing Lienert at 8 if he does not fit Fairchild's (Martz system) of downfield , deep throwing. Lienart would've been a good value at 8 and that is a typical Tom Donahoe draft. Good value, but useless on gameday. you were Donahoe biggest critic. The guy drafted based on value instead of whether they fit the scheme. How did that turn out?

It all depends on what your defenition of quality players are. On that fits your scheme or one with great talent but does not fit.

Like I said, The Pats won with a 2nd yr. qb with nothing more than Antoine Smith. No one then would've said Brady was a quality player and especially A. Smith.

The redskins (all pro line-up)and Raiders had quality players for years and won nothing. teams like Pats and Pitts had players that fit in their system, they were more successful.

[Justasportsfan]

Originally Posted by FinfanInBuffalo

Everyone???? Right.....

Here is a quote about the Whitner pick from one of the links you provided:



That is exactly what the critics have been saying. Nobody is saying he will be a bad player, just that the Bills didn't get the value that they should have. Whitner was not the 8th best player in the draft. There were plenty of teams asking for Buffalo's 8th pick. They blew it.

Like I siad, wins are more valuable than where aplayer was drafted. If Whitner helps the team win games, it wouldn't matter where he ws drafted.

Didn't you state that they were bad picks? Are they bad because because of where they were drafted ? If that's your defenition of bad picks, then we have nothing to argue. I couldn't care less as long as we win games.

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

What use is grabbing Lienert at 8 if he does not fit Fairchild's (Martz system) of downfield , deep throwing. Lienart would've been a good value at 8 and that is a typical Tom Donahoe draft. Good value, but useless on gameday. you were Donahoe biggest critic. The guy drafted based on value instead of whether they fit the scheme. How did that turn out?

This is where you are confused. I didn't suggest that Buffalo should have taken Leinart at 8. They should have taken one of the offers and traded out of that spot and gotten more value for their pick.

Bills fans are trying justify the picks of Whitner and McCargo by claiming that they would have been gone later. You have no way of knowing that. When the Fins gave up a 4th round pick to make sure they got Vernon Carey, you laughed. The argument was that they were afraid that someone else was going to trade with the Vikings so they made sure they got the player they wanted. Carey was rated as the third best player at a position of need. You have no problem with the Bills giving up a third round pick to accomplish the same thing.

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

Like I siad, wins are more valuable than where aplayer was drafted. If Whitner helps the team win games, it wouldn't matter where he ws drafted.

Funny that you were unable to make the same statement about picks by the Fins that you thought were reaches.

One of the rumors was that Philly wanted trade their 2nd to move up to the 8th spot for Bunkley. Which is better value, getting Bunkley at 8 or getting Bunkley and Winston Justice? That is the point.

[Justasportsfan]

Originally Posted by FinfanInBuffalo

This is where you are confused. I didn't suggest that Buffalo should have taken Leinart at 8. They should have taken one of the offers and traded out of that spot and gotten more value for their pick.

Bills fans are trying justify the picks of Whitner and McCargo by claiming that they would have been gone later. You have no way of knowing that. When the Fins gave up a 4th round pick to make sure they got Vernon Carey, you laughed. The argument was that they were afraid that someone else was going to trade with the Vikings so they made sure they got the player they wanted. Carey was rated as the third best player at a position of need. You have no problem with the Bills giving up a third round pick to accomplish the same thing.

I never you said that you stated we should've taken Lienert, I was simply pointing out value. Value means squat if they are not the players you want.

Try checking out bZ and what went on during the draft. Here's part of it.


"A variety of experts have questioned the Bills moving into round one for McCargo, but the fact is that the New York Giants were prepared to take him with the 32nd overall pick. Their GM, Ernie Accorsi, made it evident they needed a defensive tackle, but Bills GM Marv Levy jumped in front of him with a somewhat inexpensive trade. Thus, anyone calling this pick a reach by the Bills is sorely mistaken. It may have seemed like a reach initially, but now that the facts have come out, it's clear that Levy made the right move. Levy had his sights set on McCargo, and he got him. There's certainly nothing wrong with that."




Here's more

"According to a "source", the Buffalo Bills actually as late as Friday were planning on taking Broderik Bunkley with the 8th pick in the draft in round one.

This changed on Friday evening when Levy got wind that the Pittsburgh Steelers had a trade in place with the New York Giants to move up to Number 25 in the draft. The deal was contigent that one of two WR's were still on the board...The Steelers were going to take either Santonio Holmes or Sinorice Moss (surprisingly Chad Jackson wasn't on that list, maybe teams werent so hot for him after all).

Marv, Modrak and whomever went through their own mock and took a chance (which obviously paid off in their minds) that either Holmes or Moss would still be on the board at 25. When they came to that conclusion they switched their draft plans.

Whether you want to believe it or not (and I know a few dont, oh well), Marv also knew that the Giants were taking McCargo and figured that nobody would take him in the first round. This has ALL but been confirmed in several New York papers that the Giants had McCargo tabbed.

So instead of Bunkley and a reach for a starter at safety, the Bills brass decided that Whitner was a sure thing at safety and took him at 8, knowing that they could also get McCargo with the Giants moving down.

I also heard from a draft person very much in the know that the Bears were not the first team that the Bills called about moving up. They also contacted Tampa Bay (23) and Cincinnati (24) about taking over their spot.

IN a way, you can thank Sam Adams signing with the Bengals as the reason they got to take McCargo at 26 (unless of course you hate McCargo and think its a bad pick)."



There's more even before the Whitner pick but I'll leave it up to you to find them.


There are simlilar reports pointing to what I posted, Whether you believe it or not is up to you.


I am not trying to defend our draft and have stated here on FH that C is a fair grade that could eventually become an A+ or an F depending how they turn out on gameday which is where the valuew becomes evident.

[Justasportsfan]

Originally Posted by FinfanInBuffalo

Funny that you were unable to make the same statement about picks by the Fins that you thought were reaches.

One of the rumors was that Philly wanted trade their 2nd to move up to the 8th spot for Bunkley. Which is better value, getting Bunkley at 8 or getting Bunkley and Winston Justice? That is the point.

Like whom? Who did I say was a reach? Eddie Moore. Well after everything is said and done, we know he was a bad pick no? I also never said that Whitner and McCargo are gonna be great players. All I'm saying is that we wait and see how this draft turns out. You don't get to see the picture after a year or 2.

PS , I was typing my post when you posted this. Refer to my earlier post to answer your Eagles statement.

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

Whether you want to believe it or not (and I know a few dont, oh well), Marv also knew that the Giants were taking McCargo and figured that nobody would take him in the first round. This has ALL but been confirmed in several New York papers that the Giants had McCargo tabbed.

At a minimum the Bills could have dropped to Philly's spot, still gotten Whitner and a second round pick. The trade up for McCargo could still have happened. They would have had another good player.

Nobody will ever know of the Giants would have taken McCargo or not. It's all pure speculation. The only thing that we know for sure is that Buffalo could have drafted 4 players instead of 2.

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Justasportsfan

Like whom? Who did I say was a reach? Eddie Moore. Well after everything is said and done, we know he was a bad pick no? I also never said that Whitner and McCargo are gonna be great players. All I'm saying is that we wait and see how this draft turns out. You don't get to see the picture after a year or 2.

PS , I was typing my post when you posted this. Refer to my earlier post to answer your Eagles statement.

Eddie Moore, Vernon Carey

Buffalo basically did exactly what you criticized Miami for 1) drafted a player too high 2) gave up a draft pick because they were locked on to a single player and got scared he would be gone.

This is exactly the same as the Moore and Carey picks, but now its suddenly good strategy......