Jets sign both 1st rounders

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Vinny was in his 17th season when he started those 4 games in 03 and was on the decline, but I agree that Vinny was not the Jets only problem in 03. Chad only won 2 more games than Vinny did that year so, that says something. Brad was not a sure thing, but he was relatively young compared to Vinny. Last year was Brad’s 15th season as a pro, and Vinny was in his 17th when he started for you guys in 03. So, if you consider Vinny as a quality backup in 03, you have to consider Brad as an even better backup.

I never said Brad wasn't a quality backup but his career was clearly moving in the wrong direction until he took over that team last year.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

As for Brad helping the Vikings beat the Giants; the Vikings had their worst offensive performance up to that point in the season. They won the game because they actually played defense and special teams. They were the first team in NFL history to have a kick, punt, and an interception returned for a TD.

You want to know why Brad was important despite poor #s and why #s can be meaningless at times? He didn't turn it over, he didn't try to do too much and it kept them in the game. Daunte is the type who will take chances and TOs meant the difference btw winning and losing, then when the Giants tied it he led Minny down for the GW FG taking over at Minny's 28 w/ 1:15 to play and he went 4 for 5 on the drive and set them up for the GW FG.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Brad had similar numbers against Pitt, but the rest of the team did not play as well as they did against NYG.

The difference is he made some Daunte-like mistakes. he had 2 INTs, 1 at the Pit 5 which prevented 3-7 points(the game was 3-0 Pitt at the time) and another in the Pitt EZ preventing points. That's a major reason why they lost that game.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The Vikings defense forced 22 turnovers during the 6 game win streak Brad had.

and Brad had just 2 INts and 1 fumble in that 6 game streak.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Do you really believe that the starter is responsible for the loss when he only attempted 4 passes in the game? In the 02 game against Jacksonville, Chad attempted 34 passes, with 1 int and no TDs, but he is not responsible for the loss Vinny attempted 4 passes with no turnovers.

it goes on the record. It was also Chad's 1st real action as a QB, a tough spot for him. If we give that loss to Chad then we need to take away the loss at Buff in '04 when he got hurt and we had the lead and we need to take away the Jax loss last year when he got hurt and we had the lead.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Chad gets the credit for the loss in games he came out in, because he got injured. If you can’t lead your team because you got injured, you should get credit for the loss.

Then why doesn't it apply when Vinny got injured in the Jax game?

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Vinny attempted 4 passes in the game against the Jaguars, and 11 passes with a TD against the Eagles, and he should get credit for both losses? The backups are 5 - 7.

You just wrote "if you can't lead your team b/c you got injured, you should get credit for the loss". That doesnt' apply here? he wasn't injured in Philly but he had plenty of time to do things and his only success was a trick play for a TD. The backups are 5-9.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

If Chad stays healthy this year, how many games do you think he will win as a starter? If he only wins 6 or 7, will you say he is a bad QB, or will you say it was because the team around him was bad? A QB needs a team around him to be successful.

If Chad is completely healthy and stays completely healthy we'll win 8-9 games. Chad's a winner, remember he took over when we were 1-4 in 2002 and led us to the division, we were 6-10 in '03 where he missed almost half the year and we went 10-6 when he came back. If he's truly healthy all year we'll be pretty good, if he's not all the way back and misses some games then that's different.

I am going away for a few weeks so I may not be able to respond to your response. It's been a good, civil debate and I look forward to debating more topics in the future. I'll have a computer and may be able to respond from time to time but I can't guarantee it so i'll try to respond when I get back.

[The New Guy]

You want to know why Brad was important despite poor #s and why #s can be meaningless at times? He didn't turn it over, he didn't try to do too much and it kept them in the game. Daunte is the type who will take chances and TOs meant the difference btw winning and losing, then when the Giants tied it he led Minny down for the GW FG taking over at Minny's 28 w/ 1:15 to play and he went 4 for 5 on the drive and set them up for the GW FG.

I agree that Brad did a good job at not turning the ball over, but when you have great special teams play, and play great defense, that takes a lot of pressure off the QB. Brad only had to help the Viking score 3 points to win that game.

Culpepper had some terrible games in 05, but those games came against much better teams than what Brad faced. When Brad played against teams that were similar to what Culpepper faced, he did not do so well. The Vikings were a mess in 05, and the only teams they could beat were bad teams.

The difference is he made some Daunte-like mistakes. he had 2 INTs, 1 at the Pit 5 which prevented 3-7 points(the game was 3-0 Pitt at the time) and another in the Pitt EZ preventing points. That's a major reason why they lost that game.

Every QB makes mistakes at times. Some teams have the ability to overcome those mistakes, and other teams don’t. In 2004 Culpepper threw 39 tds, and only 11 ints. He threw at least 1 Td in every game he played in, and only had three games where he threw more than 1 interception, yet the Vikings were 8-8.

If Culpepper had that kind of performance with the Dolphins, I am very certain that he would have won a lot more than 8 games.

Brad had just 2 INts and 1 fumble in that 6 game streak.

Good defensive play makes it easier not to turn the ball over. The Qb does not feel that he has to force things, and does not have to worry about the defense losing the game. In the 7 wins with Brad at QB, the Vikings defense averaged about 14 ppg. In the three losses with Brad the defense averaged about 28 ppg.

it goes on the record. It was also Chad's 1st real action as a QB, a tough spot for him.

It does not go on the record in my book. It does not matter to me if it was Chad’s first action as a QB, or not. I am counting the losses Chad is responsible for. The backup attempted 4 passes and had no turnovers in that game. There is no way that the backup QB can be held responsible for that game.

If we give that loss to Chad then we need to take away the loss at Buff in '04 when he got hurt and we had the lead and we need to take away the Jax loss last year when he got hurt and we had the lead.

The game against Buff you are talking about in 04, the Jets were losing the game by 7 points before Chad even got injured. On Jets last three possessions with Chad, he had two ints and one sack, and the score was 20 –10 before he left the game. Carter came with with 6:11 to go in the game. He threw a total of 3 passes, (2-3 one of which was a TD), but it was too late, the damage had been done. There is no way that Carter can be responsible for that loss. It is not like Chad was winning the game, and got hurt and Carter came in and blew the game for them.


The game you are talking about against Jax last year, the Jets were again down by 3 in the 3rd quarter before Chad even got injured. Jay came in and only attempted 3 passes (no turnovers) before Chad came back into that game. Chad was only out for 1 1/2 possessions, and played the rest of the game. Getting injured may be the reason why the Jets lost that game, but Chad is still responsible for the loss.

Then why doesn't it apply when Vinny got injured in the Jax game?

Because Vinny was only in the games for a little over 2:00 minutes, and only attempted 4 passes. He did not do anything that cost the Jets. It’s a totally different situation than Chad in 04.

You just wrote "if you can't lead your team b/c you got injured, you should get credit for the loss". That doesnt' apply here? he wasn't injured in Philly but he had plenty of time to do things and his only success was a trick play for a TD. The backups are 5-9.

I am talking about games where Chad still played when he was injured. The games against Jax and Buff, Chad was the guy. He made the mistakes, probably because he was injured, but he is still the guy who is responsible. You have to look at each QBs performance to determine who is responsible for the loss.

Vinny led the Jets to 10 point in three possessions against the Eagles. He was 7 – 11 with 1 Td, and no ints. Chad came in mid way through the third quarter, and the Jets were up by 3 points by the start of the fourth. Chad was the QB who threw two picks, (One which led to a Philly score in the fourth quarter) not Vinny.

It is crazy to say that the backup Qbs are responsible for those losses. Do you honestly feel that they are? What would you say if Vinny threw 3 pick and had put the Jets in a 21-0 hole, and then Chad came in and threw 4 tds and won the game? Would you still say the starter should get the credit for the win?

If Chad is completely healthy and stays completely healthy we'll win 8-9 games. Chad's a winner, remember he took over when we were 1-4 in 2002 and led us to the division, we were 6-10 in '03 where he missed almost half the year and we went 10-6 when he came back. If he's truly healthy all year we'll be pretty good, if he's not all the way back and misses some games then that's different.

It takes more than a good QB to win games. Chad played in 10 games in 03, and was 4-6. I think the Jets have other concerns besides the QB. I do believe the Jets will do better if they have a healthy Chad, but I don’t know if they can win 9 games. You did not answer my question though. I was asking “if” the Jets go 6-10 with a healthy Chad, will you say he is a bad QB, or will you say it was because the team around him was bad? My opinion of a QB is not solely based on his team’s record. I believe that you have to look at the Qb’s individual performance.

In 1985 the Dolphins won 12 games with Marino. That year he threw for 4,137 yds 30 tds and 21 ints.
The next year, Marino had an even better year at QB (4,746 yds 44 tds, and 23 ints), but the Dolphins only won 8 games.

In 1990 the Dolphins again won 12 games with Marino. That year he threw for 3,563 yds 21 tds and 11 ints.

The following year Marino had a better year at QB, (3,970 yds 25 tds and 13 ints) but the Dolphins only won 8 games.

You can have the best QB in the world, but if he is on a bad team, you are not going to win games.

I am going away for a few weeks so I may not be able to respond to your response. It's been a good, civil debate and I look forward to debating more topics in the future. I'll have a computer and may be able to respond from time to time but I can't guarantee it so i'll try to respond when I get back.

Thanks for letting me know. Have a great trip.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I agree that Brad did a good job at not turning the ball over, but when you have great special teams play, and play great defense, that takes a lot of pressure off the QB. Brad only had to help the Viking score 3 points to win that game.

It was 7-6 minny at the half, it wasn't like the D and Sts got them toa big lead, it was still critical that he didn't make big mistakes and he did not and he led them on the GW drive in the final minute. That's a game Minny loses w/ daunte.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Culpepper had some terrible games in 05, but those games came against much better teams than what Brad faced. When Brad played against teams that were similar to what Culpepper faced, he did not do so well. The Vikings were a mess in 05, and the only teams they could beat were bad teams.

Daunte didn't beat a team as good as the Giants, did he? when he faced playoff teams he was atrocious and the team had no chance. Brad was the QB for the only Giant home loss in the reg season(and they had 1 more home game then everyone else so they won 8 home games in '05) and the Pitt game was close throughout while daunte's leed team was blown out against playoff teams where they lost by an average of 22 points per game.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

If Culpepper had that kind of performance with the Dolphins, I am very certain that he would have won a lot more than 8 games.

Maybe but remember he steps up in class in the AFC so those #s are a)very unlikely and b) teams have more ability to opvercome that than in the NFC.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Good defensive play makes it easier not to turn the ball over. The Qb does not feel that he has to force things, and does not have to worry about the defense losing the game. In the 7 wins with Brad at QB, the Vikings defense averaged about 14 ppg. In the three losses with Brad the defense averaged about 28 ppg.

why was it the D all of a sudden gave up over 10 PPg LESS w/ Brad? It's b/c he wasn't turning it over and when he did they lost.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The game against Buff you are talking about in 04, the Jets were losing the game by 7 points before Chad even got injured. On Jets last three possessions with Chad, he had two ints and one sack, and the score was 20 –10 before he left the game. Carter came with with 6:11 to go in the game. He threw a total of 3 passes, (2-3 one of which was a TD), but it was too late, the damage had been done. There is no way that Carter can be responsible for that loss. It is not like Chad was winning the game, and got hurt and Carter came in and blew the game for them.

The jets were up 10-7 in the 2nd qtr when Chad was hurt and the game was tied at 10 at the half. he clearly could not throw and for some reason they left him in. He should have been removed at the half.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The game you are talking about against Jax last year, the Jets were again down by 3 in the 3rd quarter before Chad even got injured. Jay came in and only attempted 3 passes (no turnovers) before Chad came back into that game. Chad was only out for 1 1/2 possessions, and played the rest of the game. Getting injured may be the reason why the Jets lost that game, but Chad is still responsible for the loss.

Chad was hurt and led us back for the tie and if Chrebet holds on to a catchable ball we win in regulation.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Vinny led the Jets to 10 point in three possessions against the Eagles. He was 7 – 11 with 1 Td, and no ints. Chad came in mid way through the third quarter, and the Jets were up by 3 points by the start of the fourth. Chad was the QB who threw two picks, (One which led to a Philly score in the fourth quarter) not Vinny.

10 pts and 7 of them were on a trick play that fooled Philly. Again it was Chad's 1st action back in months, I cannot fault him for that.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

It is crazy to say that the backup Qbs are responsible for those losses. Do you honestly feel that they are? What would you say if Vinny threw 3 pick and had put the Jets in a 21-0 hole, and then Chad came in and threw 4 tds and won the game? Would you still say the starter should get the credit for the win?

That's how they keep the records. Glen Foley has a career record that includes ZERO wins yet he led us from behind twice for wins.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

It takes more than a good QB to win games. Chad played in 10 games in 03, and was 4-6. I think the Jets have other concerns besides the QB. I do believe the Jets will do better if they have a healthy Chad, but I don’t know if they can win 9 games. You did not answer my question though. I was asking “if” the Jets go 6-10 with a healthy Chad, will you say he is a bad QB, or will you say it was because the team around him was bad? My opinion of a QB is not solely based on his team’s record. I believe that you have to look at the Qb’s individual performance.

8-9 was before i knew Curtis may be out. I still think if Chad is healthy and we get decent OL play we'll win 7-9 games but I'm not sure he can stay healthy so i am thinking 6-7 wins.

IF we go 6-10 w/ Chad it's not necessarily a poor reflection on him, he has been through 2 surgeries on his throwing shoulder the last 2 years. If he's 100% I think we'll win at least 8 but again I can't count on that.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

In 1985 the Dolphins won 12 games with Marino. That year he threw for 4,137 yds 30 tds and 21 ints.
The next year, Marino had an even better year at QB (4,746 yds 44 tds, and 23 ints), but the Dolphins only won 8 games.

he had 23 INts and who knows how many fumbles plus marino was adifferent. he never had close to the talent that Daunte had around him. he had 2 good Wrs he made look much better than they were and never had a ground game. You can't compare the 2.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

In 1990 the Dolphins again won 12 games with Marino. That year he threw for 3,563 yds 21 tds and 11 ints.

The following year Marino had a better year at QB, (3,970 yds 25 tds and 13 ints) but the Dolphins only won 8 games.

You are telling me that in 1 year the team completely lost it besides Marino? In '91 he had more INTs, you don't think that plays a role? In the week 17 game vs. the jets he had a couple of key TOs including 1 at the Jets goal line. If he's not forcing things there the Dolphins win that game and make the playoffs. I can't speak for the other games I didn't see but that game for sure his TOs had a huge impact.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

You can have the best QB in the world, but if he is on a bad team, you are not going to win games.

I partially agree, a great QB can elevate a team which is why you guys never sucked w/ Dan. he never had a great team around him but he guided you to a SB and multiple title games and a ton of PO appearances. A QB cannot win on his own but a great QB can turn a bad team to mediocre, a mediocre team to good and a good team to great(see Tom Brady- actually NE was bad when he took over so he turned them from bad to great).

[Gardenhead]

False Start--D'Bustashaw Ferguson!!!

[The New Guy]

Welcome back nyjunc!

It was 7-6 minny at the half, it wasn't like the D and Sts got them toa big lead, it was still critical that he didn't make big mistakes and he did not and he led them on the GW drive in the final minute. That's a game Minny loses w/ daunte.

I give credit to Brad for not making mistakes, but he did not win that game. If a team scores 24 points and 21 of those points come from defense and special teams, I can’t give the credit to the QB. As for Minny losing that game with Culpepper, no one can know for sure, but I really doubt it. I am very confident that he could have completed 4 passes to get the Vikings in field goal range.

Daunte didn't beat a team as good as the Giants, did he? when he faced playoff teams he was atrocious and the team had no chance. Brad was the QB for the only Giant home loss in the reg season(and they had 1 more home game then everyone else so they won 8 home games in '05) and the Pitt game was close throughout while daunte's leed team was blown out against playoff teams where they lost by an average of 22 points per game.

Brad did not beat the Giants either, the special teams and defense did. Culpepper did play bad against good teams last year, but so did Brad. Like I said before, the Vikings were a mess last year. The first 6 games, Culpepper faced 4 pretty good teams and was 2-4. In the 10 games Johnson played, he only had to face 3 good teams (Car, NYG, Pitt) and was
7-3, and 1 win came against the Giants when special teams and defense scored most of the points.

why was it the D all of a sudden gave up over 10 PPg LESS w/ Brad? It's b/c he wasn't turning it over and when he did they lost.

That is a part of it, but they also had an easier schedule when Brad took over.

The jets were up 10-7 in the 2nd qtr when Chad was hurt and the game was tied at 10 at the half. he clearly could not throw and for some reason they left him in. He should have been removed at the half.

The score was 17-10 before the Jets even got the ball after the half. I agree that he probably should not have played the second half, but he did, and he is responsible for the loss.

Chad was hurt and led us back for the tie and if Chrebet holds on to a catchable ball we win in regulation.

I also agree, but Chad is still responsible for the loss.

10 pts and 7 of them were on a trick play that fooled Philly. Again it was Chad's 1st action back in months, I cannot fault him for that.

It does not matter to me how Vinny threw the TD, he did and led the Jets to 10 points. The Jets were leading the game by 3 points in the fourth with Chad at QB. Chad threw 2 picks in the fourth and cost the Jets the game. First action or not, he is responsible for the loss.

That's how they keep the records. Glen Foley has a career record that includes ZERO wins yet he led us from behind twice for wins.

That may be how they keep records, but it is not how I keep records. I look at who is responsible for the wins and losses.

8-9 was before i knew Curtis may be out. I still think if Chad is healthy and we get decent OL play we'll win 7-9 games but I'm not sure he can stay healthy so i am thinking 6-7 wins.

IF we go 6-10 w/ Chad it's not necessarily a poor reflection on him, he has been through 2 surgeries on his throwing shoulder the last 2 years. If he's 100% I think we'll win at least 8 but again I can't count on that.

Hypothetically, if Chad was 100% healthy, (never had any shoulder surgeries in the past), and the Jets went 6-10 this year, would you say that Chad was a bad QB or would you say it was because the team around him was bad?

he had 23 INts and who knows how many fumbles plus marino was adifferent. he never had close to the talent that Daunte had around him. he had 2 good Wrs he made look much better than they were and never had a ground game. You can't compare the 2

He had 21 ints and who knows how many fumbles in 85, but the team still won 12 games. Why did the Dolphins win only 8 games the next year? It was because the team was worse.

You are telling me that in 1 year the team completely lost it besides Marino? In '91 he had more INTs, you don't think that plays a role? In the week 17 game vs. the jets he had a couple of key TOs including 1 at the Jets goal line. If he's not forcing things there the Dolphins win that game and make the playoffs. I can't speak for the other games I didn't see but that game for sure his TOs had a huge impact.

Marino only threw 2 more picks in 91 but the Dolphins lost 4 more games than they did the year before. I am not saying that Mariono did not cost the Dolphins any games, as I know he did, but he did not cost them 4 games. The Dolphins defense was 4th in points allowed in 1990 and 24th the following year. That played a major role in the 4 extra losses. It is the same in 85 and 86. They were 12th in 85, and 26th in 86.


Culpepper is a major upgrade over Frerotte, and I believe was the best QB we had a chance to get. It will be fun to see how he does now that he has a good defense on the other side of the ball.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Welcome back nyjunc!

thanks! 3 weeks is too long away but I did get to see the Jets in tampa a few weeks ago.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I give credit to Brad for not making mistakes, but he did not win that game.

I never said HE won the game I said that's a game minny would have lost w/ Daunte b/c he would have gotten frustrated, tried to force things and turn it over. The key to Minny having a chance in that game was no turnovers, if Brad throws an INt or fumbles and sets up the Giants they never have a chance to win so while he didn't necessarily play a good game he didn't play a bad game either and when the lights went on he marched them down for the GW FG.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Brad did not beat the Giants either, the special teams and defense did.

Brad didn't beat the Giants but a major reason the Vikes lost to Cincy, TB and Chi was Daunte so Brad didn't lose it either.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

That is a part of it, but they also had an easier schedule when Brad took over.

How come the easy scheds in 2003 and 2004 didn't help Daunte? In 2003 it couldn't have been any easier w/ the playoffs on the line at 3-12 Arizona who had given up then in '04 at 5-10 Wash and he couldn't get it done. Schedule plays a role but just b/c you play an "easier" tam doesn't mean you chalk it up as a W and under Brad Minny took care of business against lesser teams. Under Brad they lost to 1 team w/ a losing record in '05 while in '04 under Daunte they did it 3 times including week 17 when they thought the playoffs were on the line and in '03 they lost to FIVE teams w/ losing records. Dosn' Brad get credit for only losing 1 when under daunte they did it more consistently?

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The score was 17-10 before the Jets even got the ball after the half. I agree that he probably should not have played the second half, but he did, and he is responsible for the loss.

That was coaching error, the Jets were up 10-7 and it was tied 10-10 at the half and he should have been removed no later than the half.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Hypothetically, if Chad was 100% healthy, (never had any shoulder surgeries in the past), and the Jets went 6-10 this year, would you say that Chad was a bad QB or would you say it was because the team around him was bad?

If Chad was 100% healthy and played all 16 games I don't think we'd win only 6 but disregarding that it's hard to say what I would think b/c there are circumstances. Did he play well in big spots? If he threw big INts or had big fumbles that cost us games I'd say Chad had a bad year, actaully if we go 6-10 he has had a bad year regardless. It doesn't make him bad, if he was healthy again in '07 and had similar results then i'd started talking about bad.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

He had 21 ints and who knows how many fumbles in 85, but the team still won 12 games. Why did the Dolphins win only 8 games the next year? It was because the team was worse.

How did the team get so much worse in 1 year? Maybe they relied TOO MUCH on the pass in '86? You ran it almost 100 times less in '86 than you did in '85 and probably had quicker drives b/c of it thus sending out more tired D's on the field. it's hard to give reasons when I am just looking at #s.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Marino only threw 2 more picks in 91 but the Dolphins lost 4 more games than they did the year before. I am not saying that Mariono did not cost the Dolphins any games, as I know he did, but he did not cost them 4 games.

In '91 the division was tougher which could have been a reason for the dropoff. basically Mia and Buf ran away from the other 3 in '90 but in '91 Buf ran away w/ it while the next 3 were w/in 2 games of each other. In '90 you swept us and in '91 we swept you- that's 2 games right there.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Culpepper is a major upgrade over Frerotte, and I believe was the best QB we had a chance to get. It will be fun to see how he does now that he has a good defense on the other side of the ball.

Physically no doubt but to me the extra money and the extra expectations aren't worth it for a guy who has never been a winner. Maybe things change and all of a sudden he can get it done in big spots but w/o a trip deep into the playoffs this trade was a bust, not quite as bad as the Ricky trade but it can set your program back a couple of years if you are looking for a new QB in '07 or '09.

Frerotte is not a great QB but he did help you win 9 games w/ a mediocre team while w/ Daunte's "great" year of '04 where he set all kinds of records he led his team to 8 wins in a terrible div and conf. The perfect scenario for you guys would have been to keep Gus as a backup.

[The New Guy]

thanks! 3 weeks is too long away but I did get to see the Jets in tampa a few weeks ago

Cool! I watched that game on T.V.

Brad didn't beat the Giants but a major reason the Vikes lost to Cincy, TB and Chi was Daunte so Brad didn't lose it either.

Daunte was a part of the reason the Vikings lost to those teams, but there were other areas that cost them those games. Culpepper did throw a 4th quarter Int against Tampa, but it was the defense that gave up the 70 yard TD run by Williams. Culpepper did have 5 turnovers against Cincy, but it was the defense that gave up a 70 yard TD pass the second play of the game. It was the defense that had the Vikings in a 27-0 hole at halftime.

How come the easy scheds in 2003 and 2004 didn't help Daunte? In 2003 it couldn't have been any easier w/ the playoffs on the line at 3-12 Arizona who had given up then in '04 at 5-10 Wash and he couldn't get it done. Schedule plays a role but just b/c you play an "easier" tam doesn't mean you chalk it up as a W and under Brad Minny took care of business against lesser teams. Under Brad they lost to 1 team w/ a losing record in '05 while in '04 under Daunte they did it 3 times including week 17 when they thought the playoffs were on the line and in '03 they lost to FIVE teams w/ losing records. Dosn' Brad get credit for only losing 1 when under daunte they did it more consistently?

Just because the team was bad does not mean Daunte was bad. How can you blame Daunte for the week 17 loss in Arizona? The last two drives he led the Vikings to 10 points and a 17-6 lead with under 6 minutes in the game. He never saw the field again after that, and the defense gave up the 12 points. How is Culpepper at fault?

In 04, Culpepper only cost the Vikings 1 game against the Bears. It was the defense that cost the Vikings the rest of the games including giving up game winning drives against the Packers twice, and the Colts.

I give Brad credit for not turning the ball over, but it is a two way street. Brad did not turn the ball over in part because the defense was playing much better.

If Chad was 100% healthy and played all 16 games I don't think we'd win only 6 but disregarding that it's hard to say what I would think b/c there are circumstances. Did he play well in big spots? If he threw big INts or had big fumbles that cost us games I'd say Chad had a bad year, actaully if we go 6-10 he has had a bad year regardless. It doesn't make him bad, if he was healthy again in '07 and had similar results then i'd started talking about bad.

Yes, there are circumstances. Daunte has cost the Vikings some games, but the reason the Vikings were bad in 2003 and 2004 was not all Daunte’s fault. I don’t just look at a record when I am judging a QB, because I know there are other reason why a team can be bad.

How did the team get so much worse in 1 year? Maybe they relied TOO MUCH on the pass in '86? You ran it almost 100 times less in '86 than you did in '85 and probably had quicker drives b/c of it thus sending out more tired D's on the field. it's hard to give reasons when I am just looking at #s

.

Maybe so, but is that the QB’s fault? Dan played just as well as he did in 85, but for whatever reason the team only won 8 games. My point is, you can have good Qb play and still not win many games.

Physically no doubt but to me the extra money and the extra expectations aren't worth it for a guy who has never been a winner. Maybe things change and all of a sudden he can get it done in big spots but w/o a trip deep into the playoffs this trade was a bust, not quite as bad as the Ricky trade but it can set your program back a couple of years if you are looking for a new QB in '07 or '09.

Frerotte is not a great QB but he did help you win 9 games w/ a mediocre team while w/ Daunte's "great" year of '04 where he set all kinds of records he led his team to 8 wins in a terrible div and conf. The perfect scenario for you guys would have been to keep Gus as a backup.

I really doubt we will be looking for a new QB in 07, and I would not consider this trade a bust if we don’t go deep in the playoffs. If we make the playoffs, it will be an improvement over last year. You say Culpepper has never been a winner, but you would rather Frerotte be your QB. Frerotte has lost more games than he had won, and has never won a playoff game in his entire career. You give Freotte the credit for helping us win 9 games, but don’t think our defense and running game had anything to do with it? Don’t get me wrong, I liked Frerotte and thought he played well for us, but he is not even close to Culpepper.


Culpepper only won 8 games in 04 because he had a bad team around him. Put Frerotte with the Vikings in 04 and I doubt they win 6 games. I think you will see a more wins for Culpepper now that he is on a better team. No matter how you look at it, Culpepper is a huge upgrade.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Daunte was a part of the reason the Vikings lost to those teams, but there were other areas that cost them those games. Culpepper did throw a 4th quarter Int against Tampa, but it was the defense that gave up the 70 yard TD run by Williams. Culpepper did have 5 turnovers against Cincy, but it was the defense that gave up a 70 yard TD pass the second play of the game. It was the defense that had the Vikings in a 27-0 hole at halftime.

The Cincy game I'll buy, it wouldn't have mattered who the QB was so even as atrocious as Daunte was I can't blame him but the Minny game he played a large role in the outcome. he threw 3 INTs and lost a fumble. That's 4 TOs in a pretty close game including 1 INT at the TB 7 in the first half and a 2nd one w/ 4 mins left trailing 17-13 at the TB 6. Following that backbreaking INt is when Williams had the long run but you can't blame the D for that loss when your QB turns it over 4 times including 2 inside the TB 10.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Just because the team was bad does not mean Daunte was bad. How can you blame Daunte for the week 17 loss in Arizona? The last two drives he led the Vikings to 10 points and a 17-6 lead with under 6 minutes in the game. He never saw the field again after that, and the defense gave up the 12 points. How is Culpepper at fault?

That team was on a 7 game losing streak, that D was giving up 33 points a game during that losing streak but Daunte only led them to 17 pts. The D held them to 6 points through 3 qtrs, the O has to get some speration in that time but they let Ari hang around. he also had 2 more TOs including one that led to 3 pts for Arizona.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

In 04, Culpepper only cost the Vikings 1 game against the Bears. It was the defense that cost the Vikings the rest of the games including giving up game winning drives against the Packers twice, and the Colts.

He and his O put up 10 pts in the competitive portion of the Washington game(they scored a garbage time TD w/ 2 secs left). Daunte's stats LOOK pretty as he was 27 of 44 for 299 yds w/ 2 TDs and 0 INTs w/ a 97 rating BUT as w/ his career he puts up nice #s but fails to lead his team to wins in big games. 10 pts against a 5-10 team w/ what they thought was the season on the line is just not cutting it. Blame the D all you want but it was the failures of Daunte and the O that cost them.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I give Brad credit for not turning the ball over, but it is a two way street. Brad did not turn the ball over in part because the defense was playing much better.

The D was playing much better b/c Brad wasn't turning it over and wasn't putting them in bad spots every single week.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Yes, there are circumstances. Daunte has cost the Vikings some games, but the reason the Vikings were bad in 2003 and 2004 was not all Daunte’s fault. I don’t just look at a record when I am judging a QB, because I know there are other reason why a team can be bad.

I never said it was all his fault, my point has been Daunte is not a winner as he doesn't show up in big games. The D gets blame as well as does the STs, alot of those losses were team efforts but Daunte is the leader, he's the guy who gets credit when they win and when he plays poorly in big games he deserves blame for losses.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I really doubt we will be looking for a new QB in 07, and I would not consider this trade a bust if we don’t go deep in the playoffs. If we make the playoffs, it will be an improvement over last year. You say Culpepper has never been a winner, but you would rather Frerotte be your QB. Frerotte has lost more games than he had won, and has never won a playoff game in his entire career. You give Freotte the credit for helping us win 9 games, but don’t think our defense and running game had anything to do with it? Don’t get me wrong, I liked Frerotte and thought he played well for us, but he is not even close to Culpepper.

I would only rather have kept Freotte for cap purposes. No he isn't as good as Daunte but when you compare the salaries and production of the team it doesn't justify getting a Daunte. I'd rather go 9-7 w/ a cheap QB and have more cap room than go 9-7 or 10-6 w/ an expensive QB.

The deal does become a bust w/o a deep playoff run. You can make the WC this year or next year but that doesn't justify the deal. Teams don't make big moves like this just to make it to the WC rd.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Culpepper only won 8 games in 04 because he had a bad team around him. Put Frerotte with the Vikings in 04 and I doubt they win 6 games. I think you will see a more wins for Culpepper now that he is on a better team. No matter how you look at it, Culpepper is a huge upgrade.

In Gus's 2003 starts for Minny he won both games, I'm pretty sure the Vikes win at least 8 w/ Gus in '04. Daunte only had 15 TOs in '04 so he doesn't get the bulk of the blame BUT you can't put up 10 pts in a game that was supposed to determine their season especially a year after putting up only 17 against a team that was giving up 33/gm.

In week 2 of '04 he fumbled at the philly 1 w/ his team down 10-6. That's a HUGE play and a momentum swinging play and Philly never looked back after that play. Blame the D but who knows what happens if they score a TD there instead of coming away empty?

Against the Giants he had 3 TOs. One was down 10-0 early he threw one at the NYG 25 and it was returned to the Minny 36 and led to a Giant TD, another was at the NYG 34 and returned near midfield and led to a NYG TD. Blame the D all you want but the D only allowed 283 net yards.

The Indy and 2 GB games he did nothing to help them lose, he was very good but the D let them down.

The Chi game they lost 24-14 and he had 3 INTs and 1 fumble. W/ the game scoreless he threw an INT at the Chi 11 and they returned it to the Minny 37 leading to a Chi TD. Then w/ 1st and G from the Chi 3 he throws another INt and this one os returned to the Chi 45(luckily for Daunte the D held). Daunte then fumbled at his own 14 but luckily for him his D got it right back w/ a TO. Daunte threw 1 more INT at the Chi 12.

That's FOUR TOs, 3 inside the Chi 10. He didn't cost them any games in '04? All Minny needed was a QB who could protect the ball and they have 9 or 10 wins in 2004.