Jets sign both 1st rounders

[cnc66]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Ricky was not good during 2003, you traded away 2 1st rounders and got back 1 excellent individual season-it's one of the worst trades ever.

.

I agree with that.

[The New Guy]

Ricky was not good during 2003, you traded away 2 1st rounders and got back 1 excellent individual season-it's one of the worst trades ever.

Stats are nice but don't always translate to wins. there are 2 reasons why you missed out in '02 even though Ricky was great- the first was Fiedler getting hurt and the 2nd was relying too much on Ricky. No made their only playoff appearance in the last decade when ricky got hurt in 2000 and they never came close w/ him otherwise. Ricky has never been on a playoff team. Again Numbers are nice but it's about team accomplishments and if the increased #s don't lead to increased wins then who really cares?

I already said it was a bad trade, but the reason is because of Ricky’s poor decisions off the field, not his ability as a RB.


Fiedler getting injured was a big part of the reason why the Dolphins missed the playoffs that year, and getting dreadful Qb play from the backup was another one. Ricky had nothing to do with any of that though. I don’t think we relied on Ricky too much. When you are getting nearly 5 ypc, you are doing something right. To me, the biggest reason we missed the playoffs in 2002 was because we did not use Ricky when we should have the most. The last game against NE, I am sure you remember that game. The Dolphins had a 3 point lead with a little over 2 minutes to play, and the Dolphins handed it to Ricky 3 straight times, and ate up the clock……I wish.

Instead Dave decided to call three passing plays that ate up about 24 seconds off the clock. That is what caused the Dolphins to miss the playoffs. Stats tell you how the player is performing. That year Ricky did great, and had absolutely nothing to do with missing the playoffs. Getting better players at a certain position does not mean you will automatically get more wins. If Ricky fumbled a bunch of times in key situation, then I would say yes, the stats do not matter, but that was not the case in 2002.


The trade was really bad because of what has unfolded in Ricky’s personnel life, but the reason I don’t think that the trade is one of the worst ever is because I think Ricky still has something to offer. Ricky was a big part of the reason why the Dolphins won there final 6 games of 2005.




Also, I am not sure Dave and Co. would have drafted anyone good with those two 1st round picks anyway.

There are 2 reasons for this as well, the first Daunte didn't throw many INts or fumble alot but when he did most were critical TOs and secondly they relied too much on Daunte to carry them when he wasn't capable. they needed to run the ball more which is why i feel you guys will go as far as Ronnie Brown carries you, if yuo rely too much on Daunte you'll get burned.

The Vikings relied too much on Daunte because they were not successful doing anything else. A part of those bad turnovers is being on a bad team. I gave you examples of where there was no running game, and how the defense put the offense in bad spots at the very beginning of games. I don’t think it would have made any difference who the Qb was for Minny in 2004 even with the turnovers. Yes, Culpepper had some turnovers at bad times when the Vikings could have scored at least a field goal if he had not, but Culpepper was also responsible for keeping the Vikings in those games by scoring most of the points.

There is not much difference at turning the ball over than protecting it and not moving the ball at all. They would have just punted, and then the other team would have scored.

I am exited about the start of the season, and I sure we will be talking about Daunte a lot more.

[ih8brady]

Originally Posted by cnc66

I agree with that.

I don't. Did we overpay? Yes, of course, RS and DW were running the show so of course we'd overpay. BUT is it one of the worst trades ever? No! What about all those ridiculous one sided trades like Herschel Walker or Brett Favre.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I already said it was a bad trade, but the reason is because of Ricky’s poor decisions off the field, not his ability as a RB.

Off the field counts too and even if he performed well and didn't miss time if you guys didn't make a deep postseason run it was bad trade, not making the playoffs at all and ahving him only have 1 big season in 5 years makes this trade a disaster.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Fiedler getting injured was a big part of the reason why the Dolphins missed the playoffs that year, and getting dreadful Qb play from the backup was another one. Ricky had nothing to do with any of that though. I don’t think we relied on Ricky too much. When you are getting nearly 5 ypc, you are doing something right. To me, the biggest reason we missed the playoffs in 2002 was because we did not use Ricky when we should have the most. The last game against NE, I am sure you remember that game. The Dolphins had a 3 point lead with a little over 2 minutes to play, and the Dolphins handed it to Ricky 3 straight times, and ate up the clock……I wish.

That was a great game, I was watching the end on my little TV entering and inside the meadowlands. It was maybe the best day ever at a Jet home game, not the biggest but w/ the range of emotions it turned out to be an amazing day.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Instead Dave decided to call three passing plays that ate up about 24 seconds off the clock. That is what caused the Dolphins to miss the playoffs. Stats tell you how the player is performing. That year Ricky did great, and had absolutely nothing to do with missing the playoffs. Getting better players at a certain position does not mean you will automatically get more wins. If Ricky fumbled a bunch of times in key situation, then I would say yes, the stats do not matter, but that was not the case in 2002.

If you got a 1st down passing though wanny would have been hailed as a gutsy HC making the right decision. Was it the wrong decison? obviously now and at the time I also would have given it to Ricky at least once or twice but you were supposed to have a big time D(unlike Minny) and Wanny showed faith in his D and was burned. he should have learned from that "big time D's" performance in big games the previous 5 years or so.

As for Ricky's fumbles, he did fumble 5 times and in at least one of the games it was huge. We beat you by a FG at home and he fumbled inside your 5 which led to our only TD of the game. It took away at least 3 from you and gave us 7 in a 3 pt game. That's 1 win right there you should have had.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The trade was really bad because of what has unfolded in Ricky’s personnel life, but the reason I don’t think that the trade is one of the worst ever is because I think Ricky still has something to offer. Ricky was a big part of the reason why the Dolphins won there final 6 games of 2005.

ricky wasn't brought in to help yu ake your season look ok by winning your final 6 after starting 3-7. He was brought in to be the final piece of at least a AFC title game team and you haven't made the playoffs once since he was acquired.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Also, I am not sure Dave and Co. would have drafted anyone good with those two 1st round picks anyway.

That's a different story

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The Vikings relied too much on Daunte because they were not successful doing anything else. A part of those bad turnovers is being on a bad team. I gave you examples of where there was no running game, and how the defense put the offense in bad spots at the very beginning of games.

He ahd an excellent running game just about every year he was there but some years thye relied too much on the passing game.

the D helped put them in bad spots early but so did Daunte when he couldn't lead the team to pts early, he started leading them to pts when it was too late and there wasn't any pressure left in the game.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I am exited about the start of the season, and I sure we will be talking about Daunte a lot more.

I am too even though we won't be that good. We can put these arguments aside and focus on the present which will be nice. You guys caught a huge break w/ ben out and Ward maybe being out. If you don't win this week it's a bad sign.

The only thing that sucks for you guys is w/ ben ad Ward it would have been a big measuring stick game w/ little pressure but now all the pressure falls to Miami as they should win. Charlie Batch makes Ray Lucas 2002 look like Dan Marino 1984

[The New Guy]

Off the field counts too and even if he performed well and didn't miss time if you guys didn't make a deep postseason run it was bad trade, not making the playoffs at all and having him only have 1 big season in 5 years makes this trade a disaster.

I agree, off the field counts too, but I don’t agree that if he had not missed time and played well, that the trade would be a bad trade just because the Dolphins missed the playoffs.

The team as a whole is responsible for missing the playoffs, and had nothing to do with the Ricky. Ricky’s 2002 season only helped Miami win 9 games when who knows how many they would have won without him.

Ricky is one player, and only helped the Dolphins 2002 season. I don’t see how you can put blame on him for the Dolphins missing the playoffs.

That was a great game, I was watching the end on my little TV entering and inside the meadowlands. It was maybe the best day ever at a Jet home game, not the biggest but w/ the range of emotions it turned out to be an amazing day.

I guess one man’s pain is another man’s pleasure. The Jets deserved to go to the playoffs more than the Dolphins did that year anyway. The Jets played a great game against GB to earn their spot.

If you got a 1st down passing though wanny would have been hailed as a gutsy HC making the right decision. Was it the wrong decison? obviously now and at the time I also would have given it to Ricky at least once or twice but you were supposed to have a big time D(unlike Minny) and Wanny showed faith in his D and was burned. he should have learned from that "big time D's" performance in big games the previous 5 years or so.

True, but in order for that to happen, we would have had to enter some kind of alternate reality, because Wanny could never be hailed as a gutsy head coach making the right decision.

He should have learned from the previous NE drive.

As for Ricky's fumbles, he did fumble 5 times and in at least one of the games it was huge. We beat you by a FG at home and he fumbled inside your 5 which led to our only TD of the game. It took away at least 3 from you and gave us 7 in a 3 pt game. That's 1 win right there you should have had.

That was Ray Lucas when he botched the handoff to Robert Edwards in the first quarter. Ricky did fumble in the third quarter, and it did cost the Dolphins at least 3 points, but it did not lead to any points for the Jets. The Dolphins scored on the next possession because of the good field position anyway, so that turnover was not as costly as the one by Lucas. The main reason we lost that game was because of the turnovers, and we got a couple of bad calls that went against us.

ricky wasn't brought in to help yu ake your season look ok by winning your final 6 after starting 3-7. He was brought in to be the final piece of at least a AFC title game team and you haven't made the playoffs once since he was acquired.

True, and he would have had the rest of the team been in order. If Ricky had been traded to the Pats he would have at least 1 Super bowl ring because they had the all of the pieces together. Would that have made the trade more successful? To me, no. The Dolphins needed a great running back and they got one. Just because they did not have the rest of the pieces to be successful does not mean that it was Ricky’s fault.

Please note that I am not saying this trade was a good one, but I am just debating the fact that you said:

even if he performed well and didn't miss time if you guys didn't make a deep postseason run it was bad trade.

The trade was bad, but to me it is bad because of Ricky's problems.

I am too even though we won't be that good. We can put these arguments aside and focus on the present which will be nice. You guys caught a huge break w/ ben out and Ward maybe being out. If you don't win this week it's a bad sign.

The only thing that sucks for you guys is w/ ben ad Ward it would have been a big measuring stick game w/ little pressure but now all the pressure falls to Miami as they should win. Charlie Batch makes Ray Lucas 2002 look like Dan Marino 1984

I was sad when I heard the news about Big Ben. That guy has been through a lot these past few months. I believe it will still be a tough game and a good gauge to see how Daunte plays as their defense is tough, but I agree that it would be a bad sign if we can not take advantage of the unfortunate events that have occurred for Pitt.

Good luck this season, except against the Dolphins. I don’t think that this will be a great season for the Jets either, but you never know how it can turn out.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I agree, off the field counts too, but I don’t agree that if he had not missed time and played well, that the trade would be a bad trade just because the Dolphins missed the playoffs.

The trade was made in order to take the dolphins to the next level, it didn't work regardless of how good ricky was in '02. It's about wins not individual performance and when you didn't even make the playoffs w/ Ricky that makes the trade a bad one.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

That was Ray Lucas when he botched the handoff to Robert Edwards in the first quarter. Ricky did fumble in the third quarter, and it did cost the Dolphins at least 3 points, but it did not lead to any points for the Jets. The Dolphins scored on the next possession because of the good field position anyway, so that turnover was not as costly as the one by Lucas. The main reason we lost that game was because of the turnovers, and we got a couple of bad calls that went against us.

You are correct, I confused the 2 as they happened near the same end zone but as you wrote it did cost at least 3 points and you only lost by 3.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

True, and he would have had the rest of the team been in order. If Ricky had been traded to the Pats he would have at least 1 Super bowl ring because they had the all of the pieces together. Would that have made the trade more successful? To me, no. The Dolphins needed a great running back and they got one. Just because they did not have the rest of the pieces to be successful does not mean that it was Ricky’s fault.

You got him as the final piece, the Pats had all the pieces in place. they didn't need a big time back. When you give up 2 1st rd picks for a guy and you don't when then it's a failed trade. We traded Keyshawn for 2 1st rd picks and the Bucs won a SB, it worked out for them. If they hadn't reached a SB it would have been a failure of a trade.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Good luck this season, except against the Dolphins. I don’t think that this will be a great season for the Jets either, but you never know how it can turn out.

Good luck to you too. Obviously I don't want to see you do well but there are some great posters here like you that i would be happy for if you won.

[The New Guy]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

You are correct, I confused the 2 as they happened near the same end zone but as you wrote it did cost at least 3 points and you only lost by 3.

True, but the first fumble by Lucas was more costly since it was on the Dolphins 6 and it allowed the Jets to score 7 points. The Ricky fumble did hurt the Dolphins, but they scored on the next drive, so it really did not hurt the Dolphins that much.

Originally Posted by nyjunc

You got him as the final piece, the Pats had all the pieces in place. they didn't need a big time back. When you give up 2 1st rd picks for a guy and you don't when then it's a failed trade. We traded Keyshawn for 2 1st rd picks and the Bucs won a SB, it worked out for them. If they hadn't reached a SB it would have been a failure of a trade.

I did not think Ricky was the final piece. We had more holes than just the Rb position in my opinion. Ricky solidified the Rb position, but we still needed to fill the other spots.

I don’t think that the Keyshawn Johnson trade was any better than the Ricky Williams trade (Had Ricky stayed and performed well). I don’t feel Keyshawn is the reason why the Bucs won the Super Bowl. The Bucs made the NFC championship game the year before they traded for Keyshawn, and when they traded for him, they lost in the Wild Card game the next two years. It happened to work out that the Bucs won the Super Bowl in his third year, but Keyshawn trade was not the reason. I would view the success of this trade the same even if Tampa had not won the Super Bowl. I look at how the trade upgrades the position because you are not always guaranteed wins when you upgrade a certain spot. The rest of the team has to be in order to win games.

Would you still view the Keyshawn trade a success if Keyshawn had only had 300 yds a season, but the Bucs won the Super Bowl using other receivers?

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Good luck to you too. Obviously I don't want to see you do well but there are some great posters here like you that i would be happy for if you won.

Thanks! I just hope both of our Qbs can stay healthy the whole year. I actually would be happy for the Jets if they have a good season, just as long as the Dolphins have a better one.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

True, but the first fumble by Lucas was more costly since it was on the Dolphins 6 and it allowed the Jets to score 7 points. The Ricky fumble did hurt the Dolphins, but they scored on the next drive, so it really did not hurt the Dolphins that much.

I agree w/ that.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I don’t think that the Keyshawn Johnson trade was any better than the Ricky Williams trade (Had Ricky stayed and performed well). I don’t feel Keyshawn is the reason why the Bucs won the Super Bowl. The Bucs made the NFC championship game the year before they traded for Keyshawn, and when they traded for him, they lost in the Wild Card game the next two years. It happened to work out that the Bucs won the Super Bowl in his third year, but Keyshawn trade was not the reason. I would view the success of this trade the same even if Tampa had not won the Super Bowl. I look at how the trade upgrades the position because you are not always guaranteed wins when you upgrade a certain spot. The rest of the team has to be in order to win games.

Key was not THE reason but he was A reason, the o always took a back seat to the D but Key came in and brought some credibility to the O and helpd them win a SB and after winning a SB it dosn't matter if they gave up 5 1st rounders it makes the trade a success.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Would you still view the Keyshawn trade a success if Keyshawn had only had 300 yds a season, but the Bucs won the Super Bowl using other receivers?

If he was that type of player we wouldn't have gotten 2 1st rounders for him, you don't see great players drop of like that so it's hard to comment on something that was never going to happen but if he put up avg #s and the team won and he made plays to help them win then regardless of the #s it would be a succss. If ricky put up 1100-1200 yds and 7 TDs the trade would have been a success if you got to an AFC Title Game, the #s alone don't make it a success or not.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Thanks! I just hope both of our Qbs can stay healthy the whole year. I actually would be happy for the Jets if they have a good season, just as long as the Dolphins have a better one.

I always want to see teams stay healthy, I want to see the best teams win and not just b/c they capitalized on another's injury so I wish Miami perfect health and hopefully we can stay healthy- after last year the Football gods owe us at last that.

[The New Guy]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Key was not THE reason but he was A reason, the o always took a back seat to the D but Key came in and brought some credibility to the O and helpd them win a SB and after winning a SB it dosn't matter if they gave up 5 1st rounders it makes the trade a success.

I agree that Keyshawn did contribute to the offense, and for that reason I think it was an ok trade. I do think that Tampa gave up too much to get him though. I disagree that a trade would be a success even if you give up 5 1st rounders just because they won a Super Bowl. I feel that Tampa probably would have won the Super Bowl anyway, so giving up 5 1st round picks would hurt the future success of your team, and would not be a good trade.

Originally Posted by nyjunc

If he was that type of player we wouldn't have gotten 2 1st rounders for him, you don't see great players drop of like that so it's hard to comment on something that was never going to happen but if he put up avg #s and the team won and he made plays to help them win then regardless of the #s it would be a succss. If ricky put up 1100-1200 yds and 7 TDs the trade would have been a success if you got to an AFC Title Game, the #s alone don't make it a success or not.

What if he did not make plays to help the Bucs win, but the Bucs won the Super Bowl anyway? Would the trade still be a success in your mind?

I just don’t think that you can automatically expect wins just because you get a playmaker at a certain position. There are too many other factors that are involved for a team to be successful. What if a team that needed WRs traded for the two best WRs in the game, and they went on to win the Super Bowl. Obviously, you would consider that to be a success. What if that same team had their starting QB go down at the start of the season, and only won 8 games? Does that make the value of the trade any less?

The Jets signed Curtis Martin to an offer sheet in 1998 after going 9-7 the previous year, and made it to the AFC Championship game with Martin. For argument sake, let’s say that the Jets gave up 2 1st round picks for Martin. Since the Jets made the AFC Championship game after not making the playoffs the previous year, the trade would have been a success. In 1999 Martin had had best year as a Jet (up to that point in his Jet career), but the Jets only won 8 games. What if Vinny had gone down in 1998 and the Jets only won 8 games and missed the playoffs? Would that make the trade for Martin any less valuable? To me, no. The Jets got a great RB that improved their running game.

Originally Posted by nyjunc

I always want to see teams stay healthy, I want to see the best teams win and not just b/c they capitalized on another's injury so I wish Miami perfect health and hopefully we can stay healthy- after last year the Football gods owe us at last that.

Me too. Unfortunately, that is not how it goes most of the time.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I agree that Keyshawn did contribute to the offense, and for that reason I think it was an ok trade. I do think that Tampa gave up too much to get him though. I disagree that a trade would be a success even if you give up 5 1st rounders just because they won a Super Bowl. I feel that Tampa probably would have won the Super Bowl anyway, so giving up 5 1st round picks would hurt the future success of your team, and would not be a good trade.

2 1st rd picks is too much for just about anybody but they made the keyshawn deal thinking he was the final piece, he wasn't the final piece but he was a piece and the fact that they got there and won makes it a success. If they never got to a SB then I think the trade is a failure.

Originally Posted by The New Guy

The Jets signed Curtis Martin to an offer sheet in 1998 after going 9-7 the previous year, and made it to the AFC Championship game with Martin. For argument sake, let’s say that the Jets gave up 2 1st round picks for Martin. Since the Jets made the AFC Championship game after not making the playoffs the previous year, the trade would have been a success. In 1999 Martin had had best year as a Jet (up to that point in his Jet career), but the Jets only won 8 games. What if Vinny had gone down in 1998 and the Jets only won 8 games and missed the playoffs? Would that make the trade for Martin any less valuable? To me, no. The Jets got a great RB that improved their running game.

The difference is Curtis wasnt added as the final piece like ricky or Key. Curtis was brought here for the long term and we were trying to build to a Championship level w/ him. he became our all-time leading rusher and helped us win 2 div titles, 1 title game, 4 PO appearances. Obviously that trade was a smashing success(it wasn't an actual trade but we did have to give up picks for him) but if we hadn't made the title game in '98 and made say 1 WC appearance it wouldn't have been a failure b/c he wasn't brought here as the missing piece but it wouldn't have been a great success either.

[The New Guy]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

2 1st rd picks is too much for just about anybody but they made the keyshawn deal thinking he was the final piece, he wasn't the final piece but he was a piece and the fact that they got there and won makes it a success. If they never got to a SB then I think the trade is a failure.

I just don’t see how the value of the trade would be any different even if the Bucs had never won the Super Bowl. Keyshawn’s production would have been the same. I agree that the trade was a success because he contributed to the team, but that contribution would have been the same even if they had not won the Super Bowl. I understand that teams make these kind of moves in order to take the next step, but sometimes the rest of the team is not as far along as some think. To me, that does not reflect badly on a trade just because the team does not win more games. 1 player can not win games alone.

Originally Posted by nyjunc

The difference is Curtis wasnt added as the final piece like ricky or Key. Curtis was brought here for the long term and we were trying to build to a Championship level w/ him. he became our all-time leading rusher and helped us win 2 div titles, 1 title game, 4 PO appearances. Obviously that trade was a smashing success(it wasn't an actual trade but we did have to give up picks for him) but if we hadn't made the title game in '98 and made say 1 WC appearance it wouldn't have been a failure b/c he wasn't brought here as the missing piece but it wouldn't have been a great success either.

I don’t think Ricky was brought in as the final piece. The team had been going backwards before they traded for Ricky. Yes, I know we won our first division title since 1994 in 2000, but the team was loosing key players, and was not even close to making it to an AFC Championship game. Ricky was brought in because we lost effectiveness running the ball with poor offensive line play, and an aging Lamar Smith. I think that the trade would have been successful had Ricky not had his off the field issues, because he showed what kind dominating RB he could be. If you are trading for pieces of a puzzle, and find a good piece then it is a good trade, even if you don’t have the rest of the pieces. You fill a need, and you move on to fill another one. Just because the Dolphins did not have the rest of the pieces together, and did not make it to an AFC Championship game does not mean that the trade was one of the worst ever. Again, I think the trade was bad, but for different reasons.

As for Martin, I feel that the trade would be a success no matter what the Jets record would have been, because he has only done good things for your team.