Patriots thinking clear cut favorite to win East

[FinFrenzy]

Originally Posted by Kinzua

This year's Dolphins team is significantly better than the 2005 team only at the QB position --.

That shows your knowledge.....we didn't upgrade the oline? DB's? Dline? Wr's??

Atleast try to make sense before typing....:rolleyes2

[The New Guy]

This year's Dolphins team is significantly better than the 2005 team only at the QB position -- if Culpepper can play most of the season and approach his 2004 level (I don't rate JH as an upgrade over anybody but Feeley). The running game is not nearly as good without Ricky. The defense is marginally better -- and still old. That secondary is the "weakest link", although Jason Allen will eventually shore it up. I don't think Miami will be ready to challenge the Pats if the Pats stay healthy.

The Dolphins have made a lot more upgrades to their personnel besides the QB position. I think Fred Beasley is going to help the running game be even more effective than last year, and don’t forget LJ Shelton. I think Will Allen is an upgrade over Madison. I loved Madison, but he is getting older and slower. If Saban can teach Allen to hold on to the football, I think he will be a big addition. Travis Daniels will have a year under his belt, and Poole is coming back from injury. Add in Jason Allen and our secondary is much improved. That is just a few addition that I think makes this team better than last years. We also have added some great coordinators which will improve the team. We have always played NE tough no matter what our record. I think with upgrading the QB position alone wins 2-3 more games than last year. (If they stay healthy) Add in the other addition, and I believe we win the division.

mea culpa. It was the December, 2002, game.

Yeah, I remember that game. Despite rushing close to 300 yards, we lost because Ray Lucas played most of that game. I think he had like 30 yards passing and 5 turnovers. :barf: I still get sick when I say the name Ray Lucas.

[RiderOnTheStorm]

And Miami have also, arguably, upgraded at both co-ordinator positions especially getting Capers in to run the defense. He may not be much good as a HC but by god does he know how to run a defense.

[Tailgater]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

I am not saying that the Pats can not compete for the division title, (as I think it will come down to the last few games of the season) but I think the Dolphins will win it this year. This year’s team is a lot better than last years, and we won 9 games with Frerotte at QB. I find it hard to believe that no Pats fans feel threatened by the Dolphins. If I was a Pats fan, I would. Feel free to bring the thread back up mid way through the season. I am willing to stand by anything I have said in this thread. I have a feeling though, that this thread will not be brought back up.

Fair enough. Certainly it's possible for the Fins to overtake the Pats, I just don't see it as likely. If they sweep the Pats, there chances are certainly much better.

I feel the Pats have upgraded as much or nearly as much as the Fins. Saban picked up Will Allen, BB picked up Eric Warfield. I like Warfield better than Allen, you may not.

Shelton is a questionable upgrade given his history. I guess he might be better than some tackles in the league, but not many. Better than the Fins had? That makes it an upgrade but not by much.

QB is where the major improvement comes from. He might be great against some teams, but I don't think he'll be very effective against the Bills or the Pats. He may get a lot of yards thrut he air, but thats about it. If he's as immobile as i expect Saban will insist, the Pats will pressure him into mistakes. Not many QB's have been successful the last few years, the first half of last year being the exception.

Again, the big thing is how weakend the Pats are by their turnover in coaching and talent on the field. I say not much; you say a lot. We'll have to see how it turns out....just let the season get here! Boreball kills me!

[Dirtywater]

Hey, the NFL is a tough league. Even games against so-called "easy" teams like a Buffalo is in no way a no-brainer win. Virtually every team competes come Sunday... or Thursday...or Monday, lol.


Anyway, sure we all can make a case that our team is primed for a serious run during the season, but the fact remains that between injuries and the "any given Sunday" routine, you just can't count count your chickens before they hatch, no matter what the schedule looks like in June.

On paper, Miami sure looks to have improved. If you are a true student of the league (and I don't expect the casual Fin fan here to know all the Pats business), you'd see the Pats have made certain improvements as well.

This kind of talk is simply a result of these damn long off-season months. Come September, we'll put it all to the test and may the best team win!

[The New Guy]

Fair enough. Certainly it's possible for the Fins to overtake the Pats, I just don't see it as likely.

That is all I am saying. I am not making any guarantees; I am just giving my opinion.

I feel the Pats have upgraded as much or nearly as much as the Fins.

I don’t think you could get one unbiased NFL fan to agree with that statement. The Pats have lost Adam Vinatieri, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Tom Ashworth, Tim Dwight, Matt Chatham, Christian Fauria, and last years DC Eric Mangini. In the past, the Pats have done well replacing the free agents they have lost, but I am just not sure how long they can keep that up. I don’t think Chad Jackson or Reche Caldwell is an upgrade over Givens. I definitely don’t think that Barry Gardner is an upgrade over Willie McGinest or Matt Chatham. I know that Martin Gramatica is not an improvement over Vinatieri. It remains to be seen how Pees will do in place of Mangini. If I was a Pats fan, my biggest concern would be the backup QB position. If Brady goes down, the Pats are in big trouble.

Miami on the other hand, only lost a few players that were not going to see significant playing time anyway. The Dolphins have not only improved key positions, they have added depth as well.

Saban picked up Will Allen, BB picked up Eric Warfield. I like Warfield better than Allen, you may not. Shelton is a questionable upgrade given his history. I guess he might be better than some tackles in the league, but not many. Better than the Fins had? That makes it an upgrade but not by much.

At this point in their careers, I would take Will Allen over Warfield. He has the skills, and I think Saban can get him playing at the top of his game. LJ Shelton was a guy that Hudson Houck wanted in Miami, so that tells me something. The Qb position was definitely the biggest upgrade. Culpepper and Harrington is a huge upgrade over Frerotte and Rosenfels. I am still pinching myself. We have definitely upgraded the coordinator positions. Mike Mularkey might not have been a great coach, but I know he is a good OC. He may not be better than Linehan, but I think he will do well with Miami. Dom Capers is a big upgrade over Will Muschamp.

It remains to be seen how these new players will perform, but I like the direction we are going. I think we are going to give the Pats a run for their money, and take the division. We will see though.

[DolphinDevil28]

Good luck, Pats fans.

It's certainly going to be a two horse race in the East this year.

You know what? You guys had the dynasty, yet you are the ones who come to talk football.

What have the Bills done....EVER?

Yet they have the biggest homers and trolls on message board history.

Good luck Pats fans.

[Tailgater]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

That is all I am saying. I am not making any guarantees; I am just giving my opinion.



I don’t think you could get one unbiased NFL fan to agree with that statement. The Pats have lost Adam Vinatieri, Willie McGinest, David Givens, Tom Ashworth, Tim Dwight, Matt Chatham, Christian Fauria, and last years DC Eric Mangini. In the past, the Pats have done well replacing the free agents they have lost, but I am just not sure how long they can keep that up. I don’t think Chad Jackson or Reche Caldwell is an upgrade over Givens. I definitely don’t think that Barry Gardner is an upgrade over Willie McGinest or Matt Chatham. I know that Martin Gramatica is not an improvement over Vinatieri. It remains to be seen how Pees will do in place of Mangini. If I was a Pats fan, my biggest concern would be the backup QB position. If Brady goes down, the Pats are in big trouble.

Miami on the other hand, only lost a few players that were not going to see significant playing time anyway. The Dolphins have not only improved key positions, they have added depth as well.



At this point in their careers, I would take Will Allen over Warfield. He has the skills, and I think Saban can get him playing at the top of his game. LJ Shelton was a guy that Hudson Houck wanted in Miami, so that tells me something. The Qb position was definitely the biggest upgrade. Culpepper and Harrington is a huge upgrade over Frerotte and Rosenfels. I am still pinching myself. We have definitely upgraded the coordinator positions. Mike Mularkey might not have been a great coach, but I know he is a good OC. He may not be better than Linehan, but I think he will do well with Miami. Dom Capers is a big upgrade over Will Muschamp.

It remains to be seen how these new players will perform, but I like the direction we are going. I think we are going to give the Pats a run for their money, and take the division. We will see though.

Good post.

THe guys you named that the Pats lost, only two were starters. Chatham was replaced by Mitchell, who has even a better career on ST's than Chatham did.

AV will likely be replaced by the rookie drafted, (Gostkowski). He will be much better on kickoffs and at this point, has a stonger leg than AV. We'll see how he is in pressure situations. I think the Pats will be scoring more points than ever, so the days of winning half their games by 3pts is history.

Willie has been replaced by Vrabel - thats an upgrade. He's more versatile than Wille was at this stage of their careers. This is predicated on the major question as to whether Beisel is ready to take over the ILB spot next to Bruschi. Given his improvement late i the year, I think he can. If not, "we gotta problem Houston!"

I liked Givens, but please. He's a tough possesion receiver, a solid #2. Not sure if Caldwell will ever be able to replace him, but Jackson? I'll trust BB. He scouted him himself, giving him hands-on workouts before and after the draft. He'll be a star sooner rather than later.

Dwight, Fauria? Rather easily replaced by Troy Brown (and quite likely David Patten, when he's cut from the 'skins) and Fauria was nearly immobile last year. I think Thomas replaces him and outshines him by a long shot compared to last years stats Fauria put up.

The backup qb spot currently belongs to Cassel, who showed me a lot last year in the Fins game. I expect them to sign Fiedler or someone of his ilk prior to camp, also. That is a nice trio of QB's that I'd take over DC and Joey-boy.

All of this is just my opinion. I respect most of the thoughts here, unlike some of the national pundits who seem to be writing simply to get a rise out of passionate fans. We'll see how the season goes!

[patriots4ever]

Patriots thinking clear cut favorite to win East

I would never go on record saying that they are the clear cut favorite, but they still have to be the favorite to win. Let's face it, the division stinks with the exception of the Pats and Dolphins. It's a 2-dog fight, so to speak. As Dirtywater stated, the NFL is a tough league and anything can happen. Both teams have made significant changes on paper. Once they put that product on the field, however, now that's a different story. It should be interesting, I can't wait!

To say that the Pats are the clear cut favorite's would just be arrogant and plain stupid, given all the variables. Yet to say that they will win the East, as a fan of the Patriots, is confidence. IMO, there's a difference.

[DolphinDevil28]

Originally Posted by patriots4ever

Patriots thinking clear cut favorite to win East

I would never go on record saying that they are the clear cut favorite, but they still have to be the favorite to win. Let's face it, the division stinks with the exception of the Pats and Dolphins. It's a 2-dog fight, so to speak. As Dirtywater stated, the NFL is a tough league and anything can happen. Both teams have made significant changes on paper. Once they put that product on the field, however, now that's a different story. It should be interesting, I can't wait!

To say that the Pats are the clear cut favorite's would just be arrogant and plain stupid, given all the variables. Yet to say that they will win the East, as a fan of the Patriots, is confidence. IMO, there's a difference.

It's definitely a two hoss race.

[The New Guy]

Originally Posted by Tailgater

Good post.

THe guys you named that the Pats lost, only two were starters. Chatham was replaced by Mitchell, who has even a better career on ST's than Chatham did.

AV will likely be replaced by the rookie drafted, (Gostkowski). He will be much better on kickoffs and at this point, has a stonger leg than AV. We'll see how he is in pressure situations. I think the Pats will be scoring more points than ever, so the days of winning half their games by 3pts is history.

Willie has been replaced by Vrabel - thats an upgrade. He's more versatile than Wille was at this stage of their careers. This is predicated on the major question as to whether Beisel is ready to take over the ILB spot next to Bruschi. Given his improvement late i the year, I think he can. If not, "we gotta problem Houston!"

I liked Givens, but please. He's a tough possesion receiver, a solid #2. Not sure if Caldwell will ever be able to replace him, but Jackson? I'll trust BB. He scouted him himself, giving him hands-on workouts before and after the draft. He'll be a star sooner rather than later.

Dwight, Fauria? Rather easily replaced by Troy Brown (and quite likely David Patten, when he's cut from the 'skins) and Fauria was nearly immobile last year. I think Thomas replaces him and outshines him by a long shot compared to last years stats Fauria put up.

The backup qb spot currently belongs to Cassel, who showed me a lot last year in the Fins game. I expect them to sign Fiedler or someone of his ilk prior to camp, also. That is a nice trio of QB's that I'd take over DC and Joey-boy.

All of this is just my opinion. I respect most of the thoughts here, unlike some of the national pundits who seem to be writing simply to get a rise out of passionate fans. We'll see how the season goes!

Thanks for the information. I don’t follow the Pats as close as I do the Phins, and it is nice to hear your opinion on the players. I thought AV, Tom Ashworth, David Givins, and Willie McGinest were all starters.:confused2

I was not saying that the Pats did not have guys to replace the ones they have lost in free agency, I just did not think that those guys were upgrades over what was there last year. Replacing an all pro kicker with a rookie kicker is not an upgrade to me. He may kick off better, but like you said we will see how he does in pressure situations.


You mentioned that Vrabel is an upgrade over McGinest, but since Vrabel is moving over from the ILB spot, and is being replaced by Beisel, the real comparison is Beisel and McGinest. McGinest may be getting older, but he always seemed to make the big plays when the Pats needed them.


Givins was a solid # 2 reciver and a guy that could be counted on. Didn’t he have a touchdown reception in 7 straight playoff games? Caldwell may finally reach his potential in NE, but at this point he is not an upgrade. I really like Chad Jackson, and I think he will be a great receiver, but you can’t expect a rookie receiver to step right into the starting lineup and be successful. I am not saying that he won’t be successful, but I am saying as of right now you can’t consider him an upgrade over a proven guy like Givens. Troy Brown may be able to replace Dwight at the #3 spot, but who replaces Troy at the #4 spot? Dwight was also a good kickoff / punt returner. Troy may be able to replace him, but since he was on the team already and Dwight started in front of him, I don’t think he is an upgrade. As for the QB situation, until the Pats sign a vet, I would not be comfortable with the current situation. I think Cassel did play well against the Dolphins last year, but it was only one game. I don’t think he could be counted on to take the reigns if Brady goes down. As of right now I don’t feel the Pats QB situation has been upgraded from last year.


I do believe that the pats have some promising young talent, but as of right now none have yet to emerge as an upgrade from the guys that were there before. I know that the offseason is not over, but at this point, I think that the Dolphins have done a better job at improving the team. Like you said in your post, all of the above is just my opinion as well, and my point of view as a Phinfan. I thank you for your opinions, and stating them as such. It is refreshing to talk with a Pats fan who respect others opinions, and gives his at the same time.

[Tailgater]

Originally Posted by The New Guy

Thanks for the information. I don’t follow the Pats as close as I do the Phins, and it is nice to hear your opinion on the players. I thought AV, Tom Ashworth, David Givins, and Willie McGinest were all starters.:confused2

I was not saying that the Pats did not have guys to replace the ones they have lost in free agency, I just did not think that those guys were upgrades over what was there last year. Replacing an all pro kicker with a rookie kicker is not an upgrade to me. He may kick off better, but like you said we will see how he does in pressure situations.


You mentioned that Vrabel is an upgrade over McGinest, but since Vrabel is moving over from the ILB spot, and is being replaced by Beisel, the real comparison is Beisel and McGinest. McGinest may be getting older, but he always seemed to make the big plays when the Pats needed them.


Givins was a solid # 2 reciver and a guy that could be counted on. Didn’t he have a touchdown reception in 7 straight playoff games? Caldwell may finally reach his potential in NE, but at this point he is not an upgrade. I really like Chad Jackson, and I think he will be a great receiver, but you can’t expect a rookie receiver to step right into the starting lineup and be successful. I am not saying that he won’t be successful, but I am saying as of right now you can’t consider him an upgrade over a proven guy like Givens. Troy Brown may be able to replace Dwight at the #3 spot, but who replaces Troy at the #4 spot? Dwight was also a good kickoff / punt returner. Troy may be able to replace him, but since he was on the team already and Dwight started in front of him, I don’t think he is an upgrade. As for the QB situation, until the Pats sign a vet, I would not be comfortable with the current situation. I think Cassel did play well against the Dolphins last year, but it was only one game. I don’t think he could be counted on to take the reigns if Brady goes down. As of right now I don’t feel the Pats QB situation has been upgraded from last year.


I do believe that the pats have some promising young talent, but as of right now none have yet to emerge as an upgrade from the guys that were there before. I know that the offseason is not over, but at this point, I think that the Dolphins have done a better job at improving the team. Like you said in your post, all of the above is just my opinion as well, and my point of view as a Phinfan. I thank you for your opinions, and stating them as such. It is refreshing to talk with a Pats fan who respect others opinions, and gives his at the same time.

Willie was a piece of a team defense. Many of the big plays he was involved in happened because of the way the Pats play defense. Seymour taking on the double-teams, Colvin rushing from the other side, the ILBs dropping into coverage, leaving the QB holding the ball, giving Willie time to make the play. Watch and see how effective he;ll be in Cleveland without his compadres around him. If Willie had stayed, opposing fans would have been talking about how old he was and the ridiculous money he was earning.

AV is a loss, but is he that much better than other kickers? If so, why didn't the fins get him? Mare is on the outs, right? Why didn't the Cowboys? If his loss causes a loss, I'd be surprised. This isn't the 2001 Patriots that won by a small margin.

Givens was a good #2. His (& Dwights & Johnsons) production will be made up by the guys on the team. Do you really think there's going to be this big dropoff? IMO, it won't happen. THe Pats stronger rushing attack will free up all the targets Brady now has to throw to. Form my perspective, he has a lot more choices than before, not less.

As to KR /PR duties, the Pats have several new guys that have done in college, along with Hobb, Brown, Faulk & Pass who've all done pretty well at it over the years.

Regarding rookies and their contributions, i see a lot of Fin fans counting on their 'improved secondary' due to rookies and guys who haven't shown much in the pros. Why can't I project the Pats rookies to excel? The Pats picks do have a record of performing above and beyound their draft slot (Hoobs, Wilson, Samuels, Mankins, Kazcur, etc).

Good stuff! Keep it up. It's better than the flame wars on JI!

[FaninPatsyLand]

Originally Posted by Tailgater

AV will likely be replaced by the rookie drafted, (Gostkowski). He will be much better on kickoffs and at this point, has a stonger leg than AV. We'll see how he is in pressure situations. I think the Pats will be scoring more points than ever, so the days of winning half their games by 3pts is history.

How do you figure? I personally thought your offense in 2004 in particular (with a healthy and productive Corey Dillon) was better than the product (granted, the only verison I've seen is on paper, many rookies could step up and contribute) that you will be putting on the field this year. And in 2004, you never blew anyone out, so I have a very hard time seeing that... it's never been the Patriots style to run away and hide in games.

With that said, I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind that claim. You can downplay David Givens all you want, but I think Patriot fans are really going to miss Givens. Granted, he's no more than a #2 reciever like you mentioned, but he always made that TOUGH catch to keep a drive going or for the big play. And while I like Chad Jackson alot, I'm not sure he's going to be able to step in and be that #2 reciever for you guys, at least this year (has all the potential to be dominant down the road though, but they said that about Bethel Johnson too). Laurence Maroney is a very good back, and he's going to help alleviate some of the hits that your offense will take from the downtrend of Corey Dillon's production. But is Maroney going to be that much of a factor to transform a team that usually plays a grind-it-out style into an offense powerhouse that just steamrolls the opposition?

I don't buy it.

[Tailgater]

Originally Posted by FaninPatsyLand

How do you figure? I personally thought your offense in 2004 in particular (with a healthy and productive Corey Dillon) was better than the product (granted, the only verison I've seen is on paper, many rookies could step up and contribute) that you will be putting on the field this year. And in 2004, you never blew anyone out, so I have a very hard time seeing that... it's never been the Patriots style to run away and hide in games.

With that said, I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind that claim. You can downplay David Givens all you want, but I think Patriot fans are really going to miss Givens. Granted, he's no more than a #2 reciever like you mentioned, but he always made that TOUGH catch to keep a drive going or for the big play. And while I like Chad Jackson alot, I'm not sure he's going to be able to step in and be that #2 reciever for you guys, at least this year (has all the potential to be dominant down the road though, but they said that about Bethel Johnson too). Laurence Maroney is a very good back, and he's going to help alleviate some of the hits that your offense will take from the downtrend of Corey Dillon's production. But is Maroney going to be that much of a factor to transform a team that usually plays a grind-it-out style into an offense powerhouse that just steamrolls the opposition?

I don't buy it.

In 2004 the Pats had the biggest scoring differential of any team. They ended the season outscoring their opponents (many 10+ win teams) at about 12 to 13pts per game. The Pats make a point of not 'blowing teams out'. Why do so? Teams remember crap like that. just ask the Pats. The only teams they've blown out were the few teams that beat them in 2003 / 2004.

I don't deny the 2004 was their best offense to date. This year Dillon is a big factor. Has he recovered from his two high ankle sprains he suffered from most of the year? Will Koppen and Light be ready to start the season? I agree with you -if maroney is expected to carry the load the offense won't be as good as I'm predicting, but it will still likely be better than last season, even with Givens and Dwight missing.

I like Given's game. He was ready to resign when Tennessee gave him huge money. All I'm saying is his numbers will be replaced by 1 or 2 or 3 new targets. He had 60 receptions last year, his highest total of his career.

I expect Brady to average hitting 10 or 11 different guys per game this year. BB FINALLY has his 3 TE's he's been trying to assemble since he's been here. He's trying to lead the way a new style (old style?) offense that eats up cover-2 defenses with 3 TE formations that will dominate small fast LB's, yet will have the ability to morph into a different scheme as required by the next weeks opponent. Thats the beauty of their defensive schemes - adaptibility. Now they want to put a huge burden on all opposing coordinators, on both sides of the ball, especially those outside the division. How much tape can the coaches and players absorb in a few days? only a handful of games.

A lot of my faith is based on "IBBWT". Fin fans are getting the same religion, but theirs is "INSWT"...but he's only a demigod so far in the pantheon of NFL cult figures..