Spygate Question for Fans of Teams Other than New England

[Cowboys fan]

I'll be the first to give an opinion outside the AFC Eeast it seems. If it is discovered they cheated it needs to be punished again. The logic of already being punished makes no sense. They were punished for THAT incident. Does the loss of a first round pick justify making a mockery of a game we all love? Does it justify what happened to all those Rams players who put their bodies through hell and trained to play the game legitimately? Does it justify robbing the Rams of their own dynasty? If Belicheck did this, he, and the Patriots, are downright pathetic. It ruins the integrity of the game, and puts a blemish on not only the Patriots, but the entire NFL. It'll always cause people to question what happened in the past. What really bothers me, is how I keep seeing NE fans put up posts like, "Well everyone else does it, so why are you getting on us?" And that makes it ok? Any one else caught doing it needs to be punished too. I would have no problem if an investigation on Jimmy Johnson's Super Bowl years was investigated for the comments he made. Go ahead. I would be ashamed of those Super Bowl wins if it turns out they weren't legitimate. That would immediately strip the dynasty label from the Cowboys of the 90's. If this comes through, then NE is no dynasty. There would be no way to think that they would do it to the rams, then stopped doing it, and decided to do it again against the jets. I would expect a heavy hand to come down on NE. Yes, each incident deserves its own punishment. If you were in school, and it was discovered you passed one class by cheating, and then discovered you passed other classes by cheating, you think that school is gonna say, "They were already punished when they were caught first, let the rest slide." Its the same logic. There would be, is, and never will be anything that can be said to justify the situation if it is proven regardless of what the patriots or its fan spew at us.

[MattM]

Originally Posted by Cowboys fan

I'll be the first to give an opinion outside the AFC Eeast it seems. If it is discovered they cheated it needs to be punished again. The logic of already being punished makes no sense. They were punished for THAT incident. Does the loss of a first round pick justify making a mockery of a game we all love? Does it justify what happened to all those Rams players who put their bodies through hell and trained to play the game legitimately? Does it justify robbing the Rams of their own dynasty? If Belicheck did this, he, and the Patriots, are downright pathetic. It ruins the integrity of the game, and puts a blemish on not only the Patriots, but the entire NFL. It'll always cause people to question what happened in the past. What really bothers me, is how I keep seeing NE fans put up posts like, "Well everyone else does it, so why are you getting on us?" And that makes it ok? Any one else caught doing it needs to be punished too. I would have no problem if an investigation on Jimmy Johnson's Super Bowl years was investigated for the comments he made. Go ahead. I would be ashamed of those Super Bowl wins if it turns out they weren't legitimate. That would immediately strip the dynasty label from the Cowboys of the 90's. If this comes through, then NE is no dynasty. There would be no way to think that they would do it to the rams, then stopped doing it, and decided to do it again against the jets. I would expect a heavy hand to come down on NE. Yes, each incident deserves its own punishment. If you were in school, and it was discovered you passed one class by cheating, and then discovered you passed other classes by cheating, you think that school is gonna say, "They were already punished when they were caught first, let the rest slide." Its the same logic. There would be, is, and never will be anything that can be said to justify the situation if it is proven regardless of what the patriots or its fan spew at us.

Many thanks for the views--it's good to hear from folks outside our little AFCE Fishbowl (slight pun intended). The particular question I'm really curious about though is what people would think if Walsh produces a Rams SB walkthrough tape that he claims the Pats filmed and used and then the Pats deny that they were involved and say Walsh did it on his own. Would anyone (other than Pats fans) believe the Pats? Personally, I say I wouldn't no matter what they say, but that's just me. I'm curious what others think on that topic.

[MattM]

Originally Posted by TomBradyWoot

Is Matt the bitter Buffalo Bills fan ever going to talk football or about his Bills, or just keep beating the spygate horse to death. I mean really, you'd think spygate caused the Bills to lose 4 straight Super Bowls or something.

I'll talk about whatever I damn well want to on here, dude. My question for you is so once the Pats "* dynasty" is over (which it may be now, but we'll see) who are you going to root for? I'm guessing you go back to being a Cowboys or Steelers fan myself, like I'm sure you were before 2002 or so, or maybe it will be whoever the next big thing is. Anyone else ever notice how many front-runner fans the Pats have? Folks who seemingly have no memory of the team before 2001? Remember, they had 19,000 season ticket holders in 1992 (in one of the largest cities in America, no less). It's hysterical really.

[MattM]

Originally Posted by satz

Old boston hearld articles are archived and you have to pay to view to see that link.

I tryed looking for in their site but is asking me for $$

Thanks for trying, but I'd have to believe that that would have been pretty widely reported and I've never heard a whiff of that, so nothing personal, but I'll have to suspend belief on that one until someone provides me more evidence.

[TomBradyWoot]

Originally Posted by MattM

I'll talk about whatever I damn well want to on here, dude. My question for you is so once the Pats "* dynasty" is over (which it may be now, but we'll see) who are you going to root for? I'm guessing you go back to being a Cowboys or Steelers fan myself, like I'm sure you were before 2002 or so, or maybe it will be whoever the next big thing is. Anyone else ever notice how many front-runner fans the Pats have? Folks who seemingly have no memory of the team before 2001? Remember, they had 19,000 season ticket holders in 1992 (in one of the largest cities in America, no less). It's hysterical really.

Foxboro is not one of the largest cities in America.

Bills*!
* = losers of 4 super bowls in a row

[MR NFLFAN]

Originally Posted by MattM

Many thanks for the views--it's good to hear from folks outside our little AFCE Fishbowl (slight pun intended). The particular question I'm really curious about though is what people would think if Walsh produces a Rams SB walkthrough tape that he claims the Pats filmed and used and then the Pats deny that they were involved and say Walsh did it on his own. Would anyone (other than Pats fans) believe the Pats? Personally, I say I wouldn't no matter what they say, but that's just me. I'm curious what others think on that topic.

MattM
I don't think it would matter to you what evidence was presented by either party because you seem to have already passed judgement that the Patriots are guilty.

How would you feel if walsh brought out a tape of a rams walk thru and the Patriots brought out an audio tape of a conversation between Walsh and Pioli? Lets say they even went as far as to bring in ex pats employees that testify they were contacted by walsh and told by walsh himself he was going to get even with the patriots for his termination? Lets say they even brought in current employees that will swear under oath that walsh made secret audio tapes.

Just curous as to how that would weigh in on the notion that he did a walk thru taping on his own?

[Cowboys fan]

Originally Posted by MattM

Many thanks for the views--it's good to hear from folks outside our little AFCE Fishbowl (slight pun intended). The particular question I'm really curious about though is what people would think if Walsh produces a Rams SB walkthrough tape that he claims the Pats filmed and used and then the Pats deny that they were involved and say Walsh did it on his own. Would anyone (other than Pats fans) believe the Pats? Personally, I say I wouldn't no matter what they say, but that's just me. I'm curious what others think on that topic.

Sorry, I must have missed your point. If a film was produced and the Pas denied it, I would still believe the Pats did it. It seems odd that such a high powered offense was shut down the way it was. Plus, how many people actually admit to cheating? Why else would Walsh have that tape? For his own amusement he thought it would be cool to tape the Rams walkthrough? If he produces a tape, I see no reason to doubt the Patriots cheated.

[TomBradyWoot]

No reason to doubt? How about that Matt Walsh has (allegedly) been a proven liar. Sure, the Pats have been proven cheaters but they've admitted to it. Walsh (allegedly) is a liar and (allegedly) tapes conversations and denies it all. Why take his word over the Patriots? No reason to, other than your hate for the Patriots. I guess I'm in the same boat with my love for the Patriots, but if they did it, then they did it and deserve the punishment handed down to them. Would I stop being a fan? Of course not. It's my hometown team and I'll be around for whatever reasons.

And the dynasty isn't over. Alot of people (including yourself, I'm more than positive) has said every offseason "It's over, this is it, move X is going to do them in".

But NFLFAN brings up a good point. What if Walsh says HERE IS THE TAPE! and Pioli comes out and says HERE IS THE AUDIO OF HIM TAPING CONVERSATIONS WITHOUT PERMISSION!

Do you still believe Walsh, despite knowing he tapes conversations (and who knows what else) without permission?

[MR NFLFAN]

Originally Posted by Cowboys fan

Sorry, I must have missed your point. If a film was produced and the Pas denied it, I would still believe the Pats did it. It seems odd that such a high powered offense was shut down the way it was. Plus, how many people actually admit to cheating? Why else would Walsh have that tape? For his own amusement he thought it would be cool to tape the Rams walkthrough? If he produces a tape, I see no reason to doubt the Patriots cheated.

That is a good question and it needs to be answered before anyone should be taken merely on their word. One reason comes to mind...exstortion perhaps? He has made light of the deep pockets of the Patriots and the league which in fact was his reasoning for needing indemnity.

The fact that he has stolen property (if he actually does have tapes) brings up another important question.
What was the original reason Matt Walsh stole this material 7 yrs ago? He had to have had a reason for taking it in the first place. Greed and money are often the motive behind many crimes.

I think if you answer those questions it could make or break the likelyhood a covert taping of a rams walk thru could have been made by Walsh.

[MattM]

[quote=TomBradyWoot;1062428975]Foxboro is not one of the largest cities in America.

Bills*!
* = losers of 4 super bowls in a row[/QUOTE]

Ugh, isn't Boston metro one of the largest metro areas in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...opolitan_areas

I found another one listing it as 7, but you get the picture (or maybe you don't ,but then again, I'm not responsible for your education).

Patriots*, Largest Choke Job in NFL History

[MattM]

In terms of the hooey on why believe Walsh over the Pats*, what Pats* fans don't seem to get is the fact that the existence of the tape itself is all that anyone objective really needs to see here. It is extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely that he would have done this himself, no matter how the Pats* spin it. The only way I'd disbelieve Walsh in such a case is if Walsh himself was caught on tape himself telling someone he did it on his own. I just want us to get to the phase where we learn what Walsh has or doesn't have. Hopefully that will be soon, once the NFL stops stalling. I'd love to see the correspondence Specter was referring to a couple of weeks ago which he says shows that the NFL isn't serious about having Walsh come forward. In that same interview, Specter implied that there may be a tape of the SB walkthrough after all ("there are strong reports there are tapes" or some such was what he said). Hey, Pats* fans--if Specter has seen the correspondence, do you think there's a decent chance he's also already seen the tapes and that's why he's pushing on this?

Would love to find out what the truth is on this, but I guess we'll need to wait and see.....

[MR NFLFAN]

Sorry Matt but I don't agree with you. Even though you think its extremely, extremely extremely unlikely its is also in fact entirely possible that Walsh could have shot a tape on his own. You spin it like its a simple black and white issue when nothing could be further from reality. As far as truly objective people any objective person would wonder why Walsh is in possesion of stolen property in the first place. I'd like to hear an answer for that question. By the way you seemed to have skipped right over my questions from my last response to you so I'll post it again.


How would you feel if walsh brought out a tape of a rams walk thru and the Patriots brought out an audio tape of a conversation between Walsh and Pioli? Lets say they even went as far as to bring in ex pats employees that testify they were contacted by walsh and told by walsh himself he was going to get even with the patriots for his termination? Lets say they even brought in current employees that will swear under oath that walsh made secret audio tapes.

Just curous as to how that would weigh in on the notion that he did a walk thru taping on his own?

[TomBradyWoot]

Come on NFLFAN, you know for Matt the bitter Bills* fan it doesn't matter. He's assumed guilt no matter what happens. Walsh could come on ESPN tomorrow and say I LIED ABOUT IT ALL, I HAVE NO TAPE, AND I RECORDED CONVERSATIONS REGARDING MYSELF AND MR. PIOLI - and it's not going to matter. He's just going to say "Well that's what they paid him to say!". Spygate hadn't been brought up in a while and he felt the need to stir the pot again, that's all this is. The Globe has posted quotes about employees saying Walsh wanted to tape it, saying they should've taped it, and believe that he actually might have taped it - but that doesn't matter. All he's coming back with is "The Patriots fed him the information".

And as for your Foxboro one of the largest cities/Boston one of the largest metro areas, Matt the bitter Bills* fan, Boston is barely in the top 10 (at #10) in largest metro area according to the wiki link, and Foxboro isn't even included.

Bills* = Losers of 4 Super Bowls in a row (and they managed to choke four years in a row!)

[MattM]

Originally Posted by TomBradyWoot

Come on NFLFAN, you know for Matt the bitter Bills* fan it doesn't matter. He's assumed guilt no matter what happens. Walsh could come on ESPN tomorrow and say I LIED ABOUT IT ALL, I HAVE NO TAPE, AND I RECORDED CONVERSATIONS REGARDING MYSELF AND MR. PIOLI - and it's not going to matter. He's just going to say "Well that's what they paid him to say!". Spygate hadn't been brought up in a while and he felt the need to stir the pot again, that's all this is. The Globe has posted quotes about employees saying Walsh wanted to tape it, saying they should've taped it, and believe that he actually might have taped it - but that doesn't matter. All he's coming back with is "The Patriots fed him the information".

And as for your Foxboro one of the largest cities/Boston one of the largest metro areas, Matt the bitter Bills* fan, Boston is barely in the top 10 (at #10) in largest metro area according to the wiki link, and Foxboro isn't even included.

Bills* = Losers of 4 Super Bowls in a row (and they managed to choke four years in a row!)

Seen where Buffalo is on that list? How about the fact that the Boston metro area is at least 3-5 times that of Buffalo and still couldn't sell more than 19,000 season tickets in 1992--what a joke.

So, if you're a typical Pats* "fan", who will it be after the Pats*' fall, back to the Cowboys or maybe the Steelers? Who else is an up and coming team? Do you even know who John Hannah, Steve Grogan or Mosi Tatupu are without looking them upon Wikipedia/Google?

[MattM]

Originally Posted by MR NFLFAN

Sorry Matt but I don't agree with you. Even though you think its extremely, extremely extremely unlikely its is also in fact entirely possible that Walsh could have shot a tape on his own. You spin it like its a simple black and white issue when nothing could be further from reality. As far as truly objective people any objective person would wonder why Walsh is in possesion of stolen property in the first place. I'd like to hear an answer for that question. By the way you seemed to have skipped right over my questions from my last response to you so I'll post it again.


How would you feel if walsh brought out a tape of a rams walk thru and the Patriots brought out an audio tape of a conversation between Walsh and Pioli? Lets say they even went as far as to bring in ex pats employees that testify they were contacted by walsh and told by walsh himself he was going to get even with the patriots for his termination? Lets say they even brought in current employees that will swear under oath that walsh made secret audio tapes.

Just curous as to how that would weigh in on the notion that he did a walk thru taping on his own?

If he taped Pioli (or anyone else), it would depend on what the substance of those discussions are. If they had nothing to do with the walkthrough, that wouldn't change my opinion of it one bit. In such case, the tape's existence in his hands (absent other very cogent evidence to disprove its authenticity as Pats* orchestrated) is sufficient to me and most non-Pats* homers to implicate New England and BB & Co. It's ridiculous to anyone other than a Pats* fan that this guy would do that on his own while still employed by the team 6 years ago to use it to wait until now to get even with them. It just doesn't compute--if he was pissed off back then about getting fired as you're saying, why did he only wait until now at the prodding of an army of reporters , to turn this over. Same answer with the "getting even" story. Walsh may be less than a choirboy, but that doesn't mean he's lying here, especially in the hypothetical we've set up of him having hard evidence to back his contention on the Rams game. Absent that, if it comes down to a "he said, he said", that's a different story, but in the hypothetical you've been given, that doesn't do it for me, sorry, or, I suspect, anyone else not wearing Pats* colors.