Ted Ginn =Bethel Johnson

[Stitches]

Originally Posted by shastz

Wow your post proves my point.

1. The fact that you buy the "idea" that Quinn was a reach is part of the gamble. Most belive he is a franchise QB, and the Phins passing on him makes it a huge gamble.
2.You say your tired of "reaching" for players??? What do you think Ginn is??? He's the reach of the Draft at #9.
3. Yes every draft pick is a gamble, the Phins combined the gamble by tying their picks into 1.hoping Quinn isn't a franchise QB, 2. Hoping Ginn is a top flight Wr, and 3. That John Beck is better or as good as Quinn. The odds of the Phins getting all three of these tings to happen is very unlikely.
4. "You give so much credit to the FO for pulling it off????? Are you joking? Pulling what off? Now in order for the Phins draft to pan out, they don't need just a 1st round QB to pan out, instead they need a project Wr to to become a great player, they need the QB they passed on to fail, and to top it all off they need the second round QB they picked to be as good, or better than the QB they passed on because if not, it's not going to matter if Ginn pans out or not, because they won't have a QB to throw him the ball anyway. Sorry but the Phins are talking a huge gamble here, much more than if they had just taken Quinn at #9. Now maybe they win, and maybe they don't, but anyone that can't see how much more risk they are taking here just doesn't understand football.

For Ginn to pan out, doesn't he need touches? So to say it doesn't matter if he pans out because they won't have anyone to throw him the ball is kind of a dumb statement. And it's not like they passed on Quinn to get Beck, they passes on Quinn for Ginn. So Beck doesn't have to be better or the same as Quinn, he just has to be Beck. It doesn't matter whether or not if Quinn fails really(at least IMO), because he's in a different situation in Cleveland from what he would've been here.

And as for pulling it off, I assume he means getting Beck in round 2, since the FO tried to trade back into the 1st round to get him, but couldn't and still managed to land him.

[arsenal]

its simple, what is a reach? taking a player before where they should go...

Quinn went 22... thats not a guess of where he will go, thats where he ACTUALLY went... obviously thats his draft value in this draft...

so you want to pick a player 13 picks higher in the first round and say that wouldn't be a reach? obviously the dolphins could have traded to 21 and gotten Quinn... but you wanted them to take him at 9? thats the definition of a reach...

you cant say if Ginn is a reach, lots of information out there says the Texans would have taken him at 10, the Rams were very interested, no way in hell he would have made it past 20...

so do the math, when talking about a players value, Quinn would have been a reach in this draft at 9, because to the GMs and the people who matter, his value fell in the 20s...

the gamble would have been for the FO to take a player they highly scouted and didn't feel was that good of a player... that would have been the gamble, taking Quinn...

only you and random people need Quinn to fail for this draft to mean anything for us... to our team we need Ginn to be an impact player, thast what we drafted him for, and thats all that matters...

[shastz]

Originally Posted by arsenal

its simple, what is a reach? taking a player before where they should go...

Quinn went 22... thats not a guess of where he will go, thats where he ACTUALLY went... obviously thats his draft value in this draft...

so you want to pick a player 13 picks higher in the first round and say that wouldn't be a reach? obviously the dolphins could have traded to 21 and gotten Quinn... but you wanted them to take him at 9? thats the definition of a reach...

you cant say if Ginn is a reach, lots of information out there says the Texans would have taken him at 10, the Rams were very interested, no way in hell he would have made it past 20...

so do the math, when talking about a players value, Quinn would have been a reach in this draft at 9, because to the GMs and the people who matter, his value fell in the 20s...

the gamble would have been for the FO to take a player they highly scouted and didn't feel was that good of a player... that would have been the gamble, taking Quinn...

only you and random people need Quinn to fail for this draft to mean anything for us... to our team we need Ginn to be an impact player, thast what we drafted him for, and thats all that matters...

Sorry but thats not all that matters, Ginn could become a great WR, but if Quinn becomes say a top ten franchise QB, then it would still be a major draft bust for the Phins. You can't seperate the two, the Phins don't have a franchise QB, and a developmental kick returner/WR even a great one isn't worth what a great franchise QB is. The Patriots wne three Super Bowls without a single great WR, yet how many do you think they would have won without Tom Brady? I have no problem with the Phin FO passing Quinn if they really feel he is not a "franchise QB", but if they are wrong, they are done, and so are the Phins. To say they are not rolling the dice here is really just foolish wishful thinking.

[GridIronKing34]

Originally Posted by shastz

Wow your post proves my point.

1. The fact that you buy the "idea" that Quinn was a reach is part of the gamble. Most belive he is a franchise QB, and the Phins passing on him makes it a huge gamble.
2.You say your tired of "reaching" for players??? What do you think Ginn is??? He's the reach of the Draft at #9.
3. Yes every draft pick is a gamble, the Phins combined the gamble by tying their picks into 1.hoping Quinn isn't a franchise QB, 2. Hoping Ginn is a top flight Wr, and 3. That John Beck is better or as good as Quinn. The odds of the Phins getting all three of these tings to happen is very unlikely.
4. "You give so much credit to the FO for pulling it off????? Are you joking? Pulling what off? Now in order for the Phins draft to pan out, they don't need just a 1st round QB to pan out, instead they need a project Wr to to become a great player, they need the QB they passed on to fail, and to top it all off they need the second round QB they picked to be as good, or better than the QB they passed on because if not, it's not going to matter if Ginn pans out or not, because they won't have a QB to throw him the ball anyway. Sorry but the Phins are talking a huge gamble here, much more than if they had just taken Quinn at #9. Now maybe they win, and maybe they don't, but anyone that can't see how much more risk they are taking here just doesn't understand football.

1. Most believe he's a franchise QB? "Most" do? Is that why so many teams passed on him? Very few teams have their franchise QBs (Colts, Bengals, Cardinals, etc..).

2. It has been said that Houston was going to select him at #10. How do you know he was "a huge reach"? I'd bet my manhood that Ginn would've been selected before Quinn had we passed on both.

3. Yes every pick is a gamble. But let's see here, why are we taking the harsh criticism? We selected an X-Factor in Ginn so teams would pay more attention to him, less attention to Brown/Chambers. We'll also have an advantage in the field position game. We selected a QB that OUR front office had rated slightly below/equal to Brady Quinn. And we're suppose to hope that Quinn isn't a franchise QB? What about Cleveland? Aren't they going to be ridiculed for giving a possible top five pick and a high 2nd round pick for Brady Quinn? Of course they aren't, because all those "draft gurus" have a mancrush on Brady Quinn...

4. Credit the FO for pulling it out? Why not? They got their QB they wanted all along. They got their X Factor WR/PR/KR they got all along... Without giving up ANY picks to trade up! If Brady Quinn is a failure in Cleveland, it doesn't matter what Ginn/Beck do. Because if Quinn fails, the media isn't going to blame Miami for not taking him. So if Quinn fails, then we're fine. If Ginn and Beck succeed in the NFL, as does Quinn, we're still fine. The only thing we need to worry about is if Ginn/Beck fail while Quinn looks amazing. If that happens, then you can pretty much guess that the Cam/Randy combination is good as gone in Miami.

I disagree with you for the most part, especially with your end quote. How they are taking a much greater risk than others, if someone doesn't understand that, they don't know football. Say whatever you want. It doesn't matter. If Ted Ginn and John Beck succeed in the NFL, I know you won't be back saying you were wrong... But if they don't pan out... I can gurantee you I'll still be here.

[satz]

Even though my initial pointer was hijacked....let me add my 2 cents. The man who is actually going to face the piper is cam the HC.In reality his future is tied to his selection.If he does not make it to .500 in 2 yrs and his picks show some improvement he will be canned.So when he makes the call ,he is making on his lively .Wrong or Right we will know only through 3rd year.

If i have a problem with any pick then its probabily Beck.The guy will start in 2 yrs at 28.Even manning and brady took 2 full years of starting before turning round into Qb capable of winning on their own .Brady is 29 now and manning 31 .so beck will not show promise till 30-32.He has backup written all over this pick.

[Stitches]

Originally Posted by satz

Even though my initial pointer was hijacked....let me add my 2 cents. The man who is actually going to face the piper is cam the HC.In reality his future is tied to his selection.If he does not make it to .500 in 2 yrs and his picks show some improvement he will be canned.So when he makes the call ,he is making on his lively .Wrong or Right we will know only through 3rd year.

If i have a problem with any pick then its probabily Beck.The guy will start in 2 yrs at 28.Even manning and brady took 2 full years of starting before turning round into Qb capable of winning on their own .Brady is 29 now and manning 31 .so beck will not show promise till 30-32.He has backup written all over this pick.

If Beck has backup written all over him, by the same measure, so does every QB picked on day one for various reasons.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by shastz

Sorry but thats not all that matters, Ginn could become a great WR, but if Quinn becomes say a top ten franchise QB, then it would still be a major draft bust for the Phins. You can't seperate the two, the Phins don't have a franchise QB, and a developmental kick returner/WR even a great one isn't worth what a great franchise QB is. The Patriots wne three Super Bowls without a single great WR, yet how many do you think they would have won without Tom Brady? I have no problem with the Phin FO passing Quinn if they really feel he is not a "franchise QB", but if they are wrong, they are done, and so are the Phins. To say they are not rolling the dice here is really just foolish wishful thinking.

but we drafted a QB that our FO (who constantly pushes the point forward how important the QB position is) liked just as much, if not more than Quinn and see as a franchise QB...

if Quinn becomes good, he becomes good, oh well... if Pat Willis becomes LT, we passed on him too... if Joe Staley becomes Walter Jones, we passed on him too... etc...

we aren't the only team to pass on Quinn, and weren't the only team with a QB need who passed on Quinn... fact of the matter is what Quinn does has no bearing, because if we win a superbowl thats all that matters... Beck could be an average QB for his career, but if we win superbowls with him, who cares? we are building a team, we're not building who has the better franchise QB... Ginn will be an intricate part to this team, as will Beck as will everyone we drafted... its not about well if Quinn does good our draft was crap... thats just dumb...

[Lobofin39]

Originally Posted by satz

Even though my initial pointer was hijacked....let me add my 2 cents. The man who is actually going to face the piper is cam the HC.In reality his future is tied to his selection.If he does not make it to .500 in 2 yrs and his picks show some improvement he will be canned.So when he makes the call ,he is making on his lively .Wrong or Right we will know only through 3rd year.

If i have a problem with any pick then its probabily Beck.The guy will start in 2 yrs at 28.Even manning and brady took 2 full years of starting before turning round into Qb capable of winning on their own .Brady is 29 now and manning 31 .so beck will not show promise till 30-32.He has backup written all over this pick.

Okay, lets work on YOUR logic for a second..

We have had a "Franchise QB". In fact, one of the best of all times...painfull to us, but he has ZERO titles.

Now then, how much of a "Franchise QB" is Trent Dilfer?

[Alex44]

Taking Quinn would not have been any less of a gamble.

Our staff did not want Quinn, and it is far more of a gamble to work with someone you don't want.

[Silverphin]

Originally Posted by shastz

Sorry but thats not all that matters, Ginn could become a great WR, but if Quinn becomes say a top ten franchise QB, then it would still be a major draft bust for the Phins. You can't seperate the two, the Phins don't have a franchise QB, and a developmental kick returner/WR even a great one isn't worth what a great franchise QB is. The Patriots wne three Super Bowls without a single great WR, yet how many do you think they would have won without Tom Brady? I have no problem with the Phin FO passing Quinn if they really feel he is not a "franchise QB", but if they are wrong, they are done, and so are the Phins. To say they are not rolling the dice here is really just foolish wishful thinking.

So if Quinn becomes a top ten QB, Ted Ginn would still be a draft bust for the 'Phins, no matter what kind of numbers he put up.

The way I see it, if Ted Ginn turns out great, then who really gives a damn about what Quinn did. Cam got HIS player, he performs the way HE expected him to perform.

Oh yeah... believe or not, we actually drafted someone who is slated to be our Franchise QB. His name's John Beck.

[shastz]

Originally Posted by Silverphin

So if Quinn becomes a top ten QB, Ted Ginn would still be a draft bust for the 'Phins, no matter what kind of numbers he put up.

The way I see it, if Ted Ginn turns out great, then who really gives a damn about what Quinn did. Cam got HIS player, he performs the way HE expected him to perform.

Oh yeah... believe or not, we actually drafted someone who is slated to be our Franchise QB. His name's John Beck.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. Phin fans can spin it anyway they want but in the end they passed on what many belive is franchise type QB. Ginn could very well be a great WR, but no Great WR is worth what a great Franchise QB is and that not even debatable. Everything else is just Phin fans spinning to defend their FO, when most of them in their Hearts don't get the logic of this pick either. :confused:

[Stitches]

Originally Posted by shastz

Thats exactly what I'm saying. Phin fans can spin it anyway they want but in the end they passed on what many belive is franchise type QB. Ginn could very well be a great WR, but no Great WR is worth what a great Franchise QB is and that not even debatable. Everything else is just Phin fans spinning to defend their FO, when most of them in their Hearts don't get the logic of this pick either. :confused:

I completely get the logic. They felt Ginn was more valuable to the team both short term and long term than Quinn would have been.

Hearts don't dictate logic either, the brain does. The heart dictates feelings.

[shastz]

Originally Posted by Stitches

I completely get the logic. They felt Ginn was more valuable to the team both short term and long term than Quinn would have been.

Hearts don't dictate logic either, the brain does. The heart dictates feelings.

It's clear they felt Ginn was the better pick because they took him of course. Your heart as a phin fan wants them to be right and thats understandable, I just question the logic of passing up Quinn. Lets face it, he may have had questions on him at the next level, but what rookie doesn't? Are you honestly going to say Ginn has less questions about his ability at the next level than Quinn?

[Stitches]

Originally Posted by shastz

It's clear they felt Ginn was the better pick because they took him of course. Your heart as a phin fan wants them to be right and thats understandable, I just question the logic of passing up Quinn. Lets face it, he may have had questions on him at the next level, but what rookie doesn't? Are you honestly going to say Ginn has less questions about his ability at the next level than Quinn?

No, I won't make that statement, nor will I deny it. I have not done enough scouting on either player to make such a judgement.

However, I know the FO thought Ginn was a better fit for this team both short and long term. And that is good enough for me in this case.

[Silverphin]

Originally Posted by shastz

Thats exactly what I'm saying. Phin fans can spin it anyway they want but in the end they passed on what many belive is franchise type QB. Ginn could very well be a great WR, but no Great WR is worth what a great Franchise QB is and that not even debatable. Everything else is just Phin fans spinning to defend their FO, when most of them in their Hearts don't get the logic of this pick either. :confused:

Of course, you're assuming that John Beck becomes a career back-up or a bust even.