Ted Ginn Jr. Vs. Devin Hester Vs. Reggie Bush

[DonShula84]

Originally Posted by Blitz

If John Beck had played for Notre Dame and Brady Quinn for BYU, I bet you Beck would have gone before Quinn in the draft.

The more I see and hear about Beck, the more I believe we got the better overall player and QB of the two.

It's easy to say that when there is no way to prove it. I can just as easily say if Quinn had gone to BYU he would have had an easier schedule and put up even more impressive numbers and been picked higher in the draft and that Beck would have crumpled under the pressure of being the QB at ND.

[dlockz]

Originally Posted by Alex44

The Texans were going to take him at #10 so I don't see why it is a reach. Also Daunte WAS ahead of schedule, just not ready to start the season.

Well we actually tried to trade down so we must have not thought Houston was going to take him.

[ckparrothead]

Originally Posted by dlockz

Well we actually tried to trade down so we must have not thought Houston was going to take him.

Exploring trade opportunities is not the same as 'trying to trade down'. Mueller said a long time ago that he likes to put as many deals in front of him as possible so that he can evaluate them and decide whether to pull the trigger or not pull the trigger.

He also specifically cited two teams right below us as wanting Ted Ginn Jr., which meant that if we traded down, we lost Ginn.

If they explored what their options were for trading down, that option would have involved taking a different player other than Ted Ginn Jr., IF the price was right.

So if you're going to go by what Mueller says in terms of Quinn being higher on their board than Beck, then it would be a bit like having your cake and eating it too...to dismiss what Randy Mueller specifically said about two teams picking immediately below us that coveted Ted Ginn Jr., and our inability to get him in a trade down.

[jlfin]

Originally Posted by SwampDawg

Great post...someone gets it. Lis Franc injuries are bad and take a long time to heal if they do at all. Don't be surprised to see Ginn end the season on IR after being hampered early.

Wrong. You need to make a distinction between a fracture and a sprain. I have not read anywhere that this was a fracture.
BTW, who is Lis Franc? Is she a french fashion designer?

[PhinsRock]

I'm looking forward to seeing this kid make some serious plays for us, it will be exciting almost every time he gets his hands on the ball.

[Agent51]

Excellent post in response to mine CK . It was really long so I didn't wanna quote it, but you make very valid points. I still don't know though. I mean, there is just this gut feeling I have. I WANT to believe he can tear up the NFL (why wouldn't I since he's a Fin, lol) but something is just telling me it's not going to be this fairy tell event like a lot of people think. They thought the same with Daunte and look where that got us, WORSE off than when we had Gus Frerotte. Of Course Culpepper and Ginn are apples and oranges, but it's the concept, and the similarites of the situations, that has me thinking.

Most people wanted Brees over Culepper. We signed Culepper, allegedly because our team doctors said Brees wasn't recovered and Culepper was. Now everyone (well, a majority anyway) wanted Quinn over pretty much eevryone else (lol) and we sign Ginn. Culepper was cleared and really wasn't healthy (and the "unhealthy Bress went on to light up the league) and now Ginn is reportedly going to be healthy for the next mini camp by those same doctors who botched the Brees/Culpepper situation.

All of the is just coinidental similarites, but all the stuff I wrote in my other post is the stuff that genuinely concerns me. I didn't mean "he did nothing in the NCAA" literally, I just meant, to me personally, I wasn't wowed by him. A guy like Reggie Bush, he wowed me. Everytime he got the ball or a punt I held my breath and couldn't wait to see what was in store for the next X amount of seconds. That never happened with Ginn. Does his speed wow me? Sure. But again, it takes more than speed to be a success. The Gaitlin comparison wasn't necessarily comparing speeds, it was comparing the fact that Gatlin is a burner too, as our plenty of players, but it doesn't mean they are great football players. Hell, there are prolly guys on the 3rd string or practice squads that run 4.3 or less 40s, but it doesn't mean much if they don't have football smarts. Ginn doesn't strike me as being an elite football player. It seems like he relied solely on his speed in college. While it may have looked impressive at the time, it WAS only college, he didn't play 16 games against top notch competition, there were maybe a handful against legitimately good teams. Going back to Reggie Bush, he didn't come in last year and absolutely obliterate the league like he did in college. Sure he had a few highlights here and there, but nowhere near what everyone expected the great Reggie Bush to do. He also played ALL OVER the place, WR, RB, returns, etc, he got a bunch of tuches every game, and a lot of times he was stopped without doing any harm. Ginn will get a lot less touches and he already wasn't on the same level Bush was in college, so just by simple logic he won't have as big an impact threat as Bush, so you figure he'll have even LESS impact plays than Reggie did.

I just do NOT think he is going to be able to get away with his speed in the NFL, and I hate to keep coming back to it but it seems like everyone is blinded by his speed and doesn't look at the bigger picture. Not you persay, just people in general. And by no means is my POV fact, or the right outlook, and I'm not trying to say that, I'm just stating the worries I have. You bring up Marvin being skinny too, which is valid (he's what, like 6-0 180-something?), but at the same time, Harrison runs precise routes and has excellent hands, two things Ginn struggles with. Marvin can slip right in between the guys that would obliterate him and snag that ball and be outta there, if Ginn runs sloppy stuff he is going to be in a bad place at a REALLY bad time.

And yes, the WR/DB battle at the line isn't as physical as before, but just in general Ginn's physique has me worried. Can you HONESTLY tell me you don't worry about him stretching out for a pass over the middle and having a S or LB just SPEAR him? I don't worry about that with Chambers, because he's a big dude, but Ginn is a stick figure, I just have visions of a Roy Williams or Ray Lewis cutting him in half as he reaches for a ball that's a bit too high.

IDK, this debate can go back and forth so I guess all I can REALLY say that is a fact is I HOPE he has the success the pro-Ginn guys say he will and our coaching staff obviously thinks he will. I'm not trying to hold this kid down here, I WANT him to be a damn Hall of Famer, lol, I'm just having trouble picturing it. I'll support him though, and we'll take it from there.

[ckparrothead]

Not only are the similarities coincidental in nature, they're not even all that similar. With Culpepper vs. Brees you had two guys that were both injured significantly, and the key was finding which one had the better prognosis. They were also the only two premium quarterbacks available to the Fins.

With Ginn and Quinn, the entire construct is something made up by fans. They'll pretend that the choice was Ginn or Quinn, but in reality there were a bunch of other guys available to be considered at the same time, whether it was Patrick Willis, Amobi Okoye, Adam Carriker, Leon Hall, Joe Staley, etc.

I mean that literally blows the comparison right out of the water because, what is similar here? Ginn's injury? Does that mean Miami has to jettison or replace every player that is injured, or discard any option that is rehabbing from injury, because it's too similar to the Daunte Culpepper situation?

And again with the speed thing, you're just not making the distinction between the speed that shows up on film vs. the speed that shows up in shorts on a track. You keep bringing up players that never showed their speed on film and we only know they are fast because they timed out that way on a track (Gatlin, etc).

How do those players compare with Ginn? They don't. It is apples and oranges.

If you want to compare Ginn with players, compare him with players whose speed and running ability (VERY big distinction between those two phenomena) have been evident on film for a long time.

You know who those comparisons are to me? Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, and Reggie Bush...maybe Devin Hester, too. Those are the guys that have the gears, balance, and running ability of Ted Ginn Jr...and even Bush doesn't have Ginn's long speed. Ginn doesnt have Deion's or Bo's size. That's a drawback. But, if he did, he'd be the #1 pick in the draft.

So I really have no idea why you keep wanting to compare Ted Ginn Jr to track guys. Nobody even knows what he runs on a track when healthy. The comparison just isn't there.

And you say that everyone is blinded by Ted's speed but I think rather his detractors are dismissing it because they don't have a context for his speed. He's the second-fastest man to play in the NFL in the last 30 years. When it gets down to it, even Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders were not as fast as him. Only Darrell Green was faster. And we're not talking about track speed. We're talking about speed in PADS, on GRASS, with an 11-man DEFENSE lined up opposite him trying to keep up.

You say he doesn't have Marvin Harrison's hands, or precise routes. Well, guess what, Marvin Harrison doesn't have his running ability. Not even close, really.

I'm sorry but this comes back to a basic disconnect. You keep trying to pretend that Ginn's speed and running skills compare with guys that run 3rd string and practice squad and run a 4.3 on a track in shorts. I don't see the comparison. We don't even know that Ginn runs a 4.30 when healthy. We can speculate. For all we know, 4.38 is the fastest he's going to get on a track, in shorts.

What we do know is line him up in pads, on grass, with a defense opposite him, and he's so much faster than everyone else on the field that it boggles your mind. We're talking about guys like Santonio Holmes that run genuine 4.40 or even better, and Ted Ginn is running by them easily.

So you can go on comparing him with the Justin Gatlins, Geoff Popes, Jerome Mathis, or Yamon Figurs. I just think those are terribly misguided comparisons.

[EndZone13]

Originally Posted by calmrage

Let's not give the rest of the NFL a clue as to how we'll use T.D. Ted!

Hey you put Lorenzo Booker on one side and Ginn Jr on the other. Who are you gonna kick to? You better kick it out of the end zone. It's no secret, everyone knows what is going to happen unless they kick out of bounds and take it at the 35. Either way we win.

[EndZone13]

Originally Posted by ckparrothead

Not only are the similarities coincidental in nature, they're not even all that similar. With Culpepper vs. Brees you had two guys that were both injured significantly, and the key was finding which one had the better prognosis. They were also the only two premium quarterbacks available to the Fins.

With Ginn and Quinn, the entire construct is something made up by fans. They'll pretend that the choice was Ginn or Quinn, but in reality there were a bunch of other guys available to be considered at the same time, whether it was Patrick Willis, Amobi Okoye, Adam Carriker, Leon Hall, Joe Staley, etc.

I mean that literally blows the comparison right out of the water because, what is similar here? Ginn's injury? Does that mean Miami has to jettison or replace every player that is injured, or discard any option that is rehabbing from injury, because it's too similar to the Daunte Culpepper situation?

And again with the speed thing, you're just not making the distinction between the speed that shows up on film vs. the speed that shows up in shorts on a track. You keep bringing up players that never showed their speed on film and we only know they are fast because they timed out that way on a track (Gatlin, etc).

How do those players compare with Ginn? They don't. It is apples and oranges.

If you want to compare Ginn with players, compare him with players whose speed and running ability (VERY big distinction between those two phenomena) have been evident on film for a long time.

You know who those comparisons are to me? Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, and Reggie Bush...maybe Devin Hester, too. Those are the guys that have the gears, balance, and running ability of Ted Ginn Jr...and even Bush doesn't have Ginn's long speed. Ginn doesnt have Deion's or Bo's size. That's a drawback. But, if he did, he'd be the #1 pick in the draft.

So I really have no idea why you keep wanting to compare Ted Ginn Jr to track guys. Nobody even knows what he runs on a track when healthy. The comparison just isn't there.

And you say that everyone is blinded by Ted's speed but I think rather his detractors are dismissing it because they don't have a context for his speed. He's the second-fastest man to play in the NFL in the last 30 years. When it gets down to it, even Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders were not as fast as him. Only Darrell Green was faster. And we're not talking about track speed. We're talking about speed in PADS, on GRASS, with an 11-man DEFENSE lined up opposite him trying to keep up.

You say he doesn't have Marvin Harrison's hands, or precise routes. Well, guess what, Marvin Harrison doesn't have his running ability. Not even close, really.

I'm sorry but this comes back to a basic disconnect. You keep trying to pretend that Ginn's speed and running skills compare with guys that run 3rd string and practice squad and run a 4.3 on a track in shorts. I don't see the comparison. We don't even know that Ginn runs a 4.30 when healthy. We can speculate. For all we know, 4.38 is the fastest he's going to get on a track, in shorts.

What we do know is line him up in pads, on grass, with a defense opposite him, and he's so much faster than everyone else on the field that it boggles your mind. We're talking about guys like Santonio Holmes that run genuine 4.40 or even better, and Ted Ginn is running by them easily.

So you can go on comparing him with the Justin Gatlins, Geoff Popes, Jerome Mathis, or Yamon Figurs. I just think those are terribly misguided comparisons.

......................

Since you can't clock quickness, what does it matter, but Bo had been clocked at 4.1 to 4.2 on grass and he could actually blow up at 250 LB and then run off from the CB or safety who had almost caught up. Bo rarely showed all his speed, but when he needed it, he laid it down.I think Ginn is more like Gayle Sayers as far as agility goes and runs faster than it appears. It would be interesting to give a ball to both Hester and Ginn and ask them to maneuver thru equal agility tests over 100 yds an see who came out ahead. I think Hester has more acceleration, and would run a faster 20, which is the key to speed and probably a key to the quickness as well. I think Ginn will do well as he needs a little wedge on kickoffs to spring him and it's off to the Endzone. Speed kills and thank goodness we have some now. Welker was quick, but not fast. I can't wait.

[ckparrothead]

Originally Posted by EndZone13

......................

Since you can't clock quickness, what does it matter, but Bo had been clocked at 4.1 to 4.2 on grass and he could actually blow up at 250 LB and then run off from the CB or safety who had almost caught up. Bo rarely showed all his speed, but when he needed it, he laid it down.I think Ginn is more like Gayle Sayers as far as agility goes and runs faster than it appears. It would be interesting to give a ball to both Hester and Ginn and ask them to maneuver thru equal agility tests over 100 yds an see who came out ahead. I think Hester has more acceleration, and would run a faster 20, which is the key to speed and probably a key to the quickness as well. I think Ginn will do well as he needs a little wedge on kickoffs to spring him and it's off to the Endzone. Speed kills and thank goodness we have some now. Welker was quick, but not fast. I can't wait.

Supposedly, Bo ran a 4.19 at the Combine. Electronically though, I think it tested out in the 4.30 range because the fastest Combine time EVER recorded electronically was like a 4.29 by Deion Sanders, and I think Jerome Mathis tied it.

Yes, Bo was very fast. But he was about 221 pounds, not 250 pounds.

I think Ted Ginn Jr. is faster and much quicker than Devin Hester.

[Agent51]

Originally Posted by ckparrothead

Not only are the similarities coincidental in nature, they're not even all that similar. With Culpepper vs. Brees you had two guys that were both injured significantly, and the key was finding which one had the better prognosis. They were also the only two premium quarterbacks available to the Fins.

With Ginn and Quinn, the entire construct is something made up by fans. They'll pretend that the choice was Ginn or Quinn, but in reality there were a bunch of other guys available to be considered at the same time, whether it was Patrick Willis, Amobi Okoye, Adam Carriker, Leon Hall, Joe Staley, etc.

I mean that literally blows the comparison right out of the water because, what is similar here? Ginn's injury? Does that mean Miami has to jettison or replace every player that is injured, or discard any option that is rehabbing from injury, because it's too similar to the Daunte Culpepper situation?

And again with the speed thing, you're just not making the distinction between the speed that shows up on film vs. the speed that shows up in shorts on a track. You keep bringing up players that never showed their speed on film and we only know they are fast because they timed out that way on a track (Gatlin, etc).

How do those players compare with Ginn? They don't. It is apples and oranges.

If you want to compare Ginn with players, compare him with players whose speed and running ability (VERY big distinction between those two phenomena) have been evident on film for a long time.

You know who those comparisons are to me? Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, and Reggie Bush...maybe Devin Hester, too. Those are the guys that have the gears, balance, and running ability of Ted Ginn Jr...and even Bush doesn't have Ginn's long speed. Ginn doesnt have Deion's or Bo's size. That's a drawback. But, if he did, he'd be the #1 pick in the draft.

So I really have no idea why you keep wanting to compare Ted Ginn Jr to track guys. Nobody even knows what he runs on a track when healthy. The comparison just isn't there.

And you say that everyone is blinded by Ted's speed but I think rather his detractors are dismissing it because they don't have a context for his speed. He's the second-fastest man to play in the NFL in the last 30 years. When it gets down to it, even Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders were not as fast as him. Only Darrell Green was faster. And we're not talking about track speed. We're talking about speed in PADS, on GRASS, with an 11-man DEFENSE lined up opposite him trying to keep up.

You say he doesn't have Marvin Harrison's hands, or precise routes. Well, guess what, Marvin Harrison doesn't have his running ability. Not even close, really.

I'm sorry but this comes back to a basic disconnect. You keep trying to pretend that Ginn's speed and running skills compare with guys that run 3rd string and practice squad and run a 4.3 on a track in shorts. I don't see the comparison. We don't even know that Ginn runs a 4.30 when healthy. We can speculate. For all we know, 4.38 is the fastest he's going to get on a track, in shorts.

What we do know is line him up in pads, on grass, with a defense opposite him, and he's so much faster than everyone else on the field that it boggles your mind. We're talking about guys like Santonio Holmes that run genuine 4.40 or even better, and Ted Ginn is running by them easily.

So you can go on comparing him with the Justin Gatlins, Geoff Popes, Jerome Mathis, or Yamon Figurs. I just think those are terribly misguided comparisons.

What about Daunte Hall? Wows people with returns, but is a non-isue in the passing game.

[ckparrothead]

Originally Posted by Agent51

What about Daunte Hall? Wows people with returns, but is a non-isue in the passing game.

Again, how good of a fit is that comparison? Was Dante Hall so fast on a football field that he was the #1 rated cornerback coming out of high school? Was he so good on offense that he became his team's leading receiver and one of the most effective and scariest deep threats in college football?

Probably the most damning comparison for Ted Ginn would be Troy Williamson but Troy, first off, isn't as fast as Ted, and second just didn't draw as much respect from defenses as Ted Ginn did.