LeBron James...PROOF that Loyalty DOESN'T MATTER...

[nyjunc]

My stance and opinion of LeBron have yet to change since LeBron got here. I've always felt the same way about LeBron from his high school days. I said from the beginning that there was too much hype around this kid and that no matter what he accomplishes it will never be enough for the fans and the media. I don't let my emotions get in the way. That's why every year on this board as well as Hurricane boards I am CRUSHED for believing the Dolphins to be a 9 - 7 team (which is what I called last season) and believing that the Hurricanes will NEVER win **** with Randy Shannon at the helm. So don't think that because LeBron choose our city that my opinion of him is bias.

No where did I say that it's the job of his teammates to carry him. But if they're near as good as you think they are, then they shouldn't have a problem stepping up when he's off. Kobe's teammates did it for him. Jordan's teammates did it for him. LeBron's teammates did not. But Kobe and Jordan get the pass. LeBron does not. Again, the expectations for him coming out of high school were just too much for him to ever be successful.

Winning is winning man. You know that had the Jets went on to win the Super Bowl that you would have came to this board and so many guys would have stuck it in your face that we beat you guys twice last season. But winning is winning. If you guys had won it all after being "handed" a playoff spot...winning is winning. You either do or you don't. After LeBron wins his title people will point to the "help" that he had but in a few years it won't matter because all we look at is winning. My original post in this thread proves it. The Harris poll leaves no question.

The thing you don't realize about Antawn Jamison is that he was the number one option in Golden State years ago. Of course he's going to be a scoring threat. Pippen had Jordan. Jordan was the man. Jordan was the scorer. Antawn Jamison isn't in Pippen's league. Pippen was FAR superior defensively. One of the top three in the league defensively his entire career. Pippen could lock down anyone in the league. Jamison is a lazy defender. Jamison looks good on the highlight reel. That's about it. And Jamison averaged 15 points with LeBron. Sounds kinda similar to Pippen's 16 a game average with Jordan doesn't it.

I'm w/ you, I try to be realistic too.

When you enter the NBA out of HS and you embrace the "chosen one", "king" nicknames you open yourself up to criticism. He's been a great player in this league and he has been teflon despite the failings in big spots, he finally did something that gave him tons of negative press and that's his own fault not the fault of the press, fans or whoever else.

I have never disliked Lebron, I don't dislike him now(I don't know him) I just lost respect for him. I thought he could be a guy in the conversation w/ Jordan but he showed no guts in doing what he did. It's great for Heat fans and I tip my cap to Riley for pulling it off but I have felt the last few years that he has had teams capable of winning it all(I have rooted for him and Cle) and he failed to step up when his team needed him most.


I think this is different, this isn't some petty jealousy of a rival fan this is about the legacy of what could have been a top 3 all time player. I think assuming he wins 3-4 titles it will still always bew brought up about him running to a ready made championship team rather than fighting w/ another team.

Antawn averaged over 20 PPG in Washington where he wasn't the #1 option(except when Arenas was out). In the 3 full years w/ Arenas Antawn averaged 20 PPG. In his 2 years w/o Jordan in '94 and '95(I know Michael came back late) Pippen averaged 21.7 PPG. Obviously Pippen was the better defender but Antawn the better scorer and better 2nd scoring option.

You're saying Jamison is comparable to Pippen. And in your mind you can't be proven wrong.....

I love Jamison and I've watched the guy play since his time at Carolina. But he is what he is.....a scoring PF in a SF body who can't defend either position. He was lousy as a first option, pretty bad as a second option, and a great 6th man. Pippen he is not. And that comparison is just beyond inane.

Where have I said that? Another poster brought up how Michael had a sencond scoring option and Lebron didn't. Antawn is a better score than Pippen though obviously he's not the better player. I never said Antawn was better than Pippen, I never compared their overall games.

[Ferretsquig]

Where have I said that? Another poster brought up how Michael had a sencond scoring option and Lebron didn't. Antawn is a better score than Pippen though obviously he's not the better player. I never said Antawn was better than Pippen, I never compared their overall games.

Were you watching basketball when Pippen was in his prime? Maybe Pippen during his last hurrah was a poorer option than Jamison during his Golden State years. Jamison was great in college and was built for that game......for no fault of his own he never found his place in the NBA. You can throw all the points per game stats you want around.....putting up 20 a game doesn't make you a great scorer or second option. Jamison fit well in two places, Golden State and Dallas.....state because they really didn't care about winning and he could chuck up as many shots as he wanted, and Dallas because he came off the bench in a role he was well suited for.

As a second or third option on a playoff team he was pretty lousy. The only evidence you need of that is any playoff game hes ever been in. He can't score against the big boys, can't rebound, and can't defend.

[nyjunc]

Were you watching basketball when Pippen was in his prime? Maybe Pippen during his last hurrah was a poorer option than Jamison during his Golden State years. Jamison was great in college and was built for that game......for no fault of his own he never found his place in the NBA. You can throw all the points per game stats you want around.....putting up 20 a game doesn't make you a great scorer or second option. Jamison fit well in two places, Golden State and Dallas.....state because they really didn't care about winning and he could chuck up as many shots as he wanted, and Dallas because he came off the bench in a role he was well suited for.

As a second or third option on a playoff team he was pretty lousy. The only evidence you need of that is any playoff game hes ever been in. He can't score against the big boys, can't rebound, and can't defend.

yes, I used to love NBA basketball but now I am bored w/ it so I watched Pippen in his prime and he was never a great scorer. Jamison is a better scorer but Pippen the better overall player.

Jamison found his role in this league and he has been a consistent scorer throughout his career. No he hasn't been a great player like he was in college but he's been a very productive pro.

he has averaged 18 and 8 in his postseason career so he can score in postseason. For a team w/ a megastar like Lebron he is a fine 2nd option, on a team w/ a lesser star maybe he'd be a good 3rd option buut on that team he and his teammates were more than good enough to win IF lebron played like he was capable of.

[Dolphins7273]

They aren't a truly great team, they are the best of a bad bunch of teams. The Finals this year was some of the worst basketball I have seen in playoff games and it was the Finals! The level of play should be off the charts, it was brutal basketball.

The lakers are great for now but not a truly great team like the lakers of the 80s, Celts of the 80s, Bulls of the 90s and lebron never had to deal w/ the lakers anyway. The whole point was Jordan had to get through the 80s Celtics and Pistons(into early 90s) while lebron never had to get through any truly great teams.



Miami fans that now love Lebron are making excuses for him. He's obviously the biggest reason they were contenders(and actually considered the favorites in the East the last 2 years) but he couldn't get it done when it mattered most.



Nowhere have I been proven wrong, I can't help it if heat fans all of a sudden think lebron never had any help. Why was Clevalnd considered the favorites going into postseason the last 2 years? These are all excuses for lebron.



No, it's not the job of his teammates to carry lebron. it's their job to play their roles and contribute but when Lebron isn't playing well it makes it difficult for those role players to do their jobs.


Kobe has won before! he had a bad game 7 but he didn't have back to back awful games in the 2 biggest games of the year. lebron has never won anything, his teammates don't have confidence he can get it done in big games, the lakers know Kob can get it done in a big spot even if he struggles for 45 minutes. They know they can count on him, that is a huge burden off of the role players and allows them to play more relaxed.


It does speak for itslef that lebron left, he wants a championship handed to him. That's all it tells us.



They are starting over b/c their version of Jordan walked away from the team. This is equivalent to Michael Jordan becoming a FA after the 1990 season b/c he didn't think he could ever beat Detroit. Scottie Pippen wasn't considered really good until after they started winning titles, he was considered this soft guy who couldn't play against the big boys. If Jordan could have left and did leave we'd all think of that Bulls team the way you guys think of Clevalnd right now.



He left cleveland to be handed a title, there's a difference btw help and forming a super team.



Antawn Jamison has averaged 20 PPg in his NBA career, in Pippen's 17 year career he only averaged over 20 FOUR times and averaged 16 PPG in his career. he had a 2nd scoring option.

All this coming from a Yankee fan. I guess C.C. Sabathia, Mark Texeira, A-rod, and every other big name free agent the Yankees have signed wanted a championship handed to them...

[nyjunc]

All this coming from a Yankee fan. I guess C.C. Sabathia, Mark Texeira, A-rod, and every other big name free agent the Yankees have signed wanted a championship handed to them...

Those guys aren't on a Lebron level but one guy who is did the same thing and that was ARod. he wanted a title handed to him, he wanted to jump on the Yankee train and b/c he couldn't play in October they didn't win until 5 years later. That would be funny if that also happened to Lebron.

[jree]

Miami fans that now love Lebron are making excuses for him. He's obviously the biggest reason they were contenders(and actually considered the favorites in the East the last 2 years) but he couldn't get it done when it mattered most.

Lebron is probably my least favorite player on the Heat. He's barely in the top 5 of players that I used to rush to go watch play in south beach. Kobe being right behind Dwade as a main draw to get me down there to watch some games. But Gilbert just made me understand what Lebron did by leaving. Mike Browns system was horrible along with no help is the biggest reason he couldn't get it done when it mattered. No favoritism, just understanding.

Nowhere have I been proven wrong, I can't help it if heat fans all of a sudden think lebron never had any help. Why was Clevalnd considered the favorites going into postseason the last 2 years? These are all excuses for lebron.

For the same reason he's been called the chosen one for the past decade, the media has total control over whats being said and who's being favored.

No, it's not the job of his teammates to carry lebron. it's their job to play their roles and contribute but when Lebron isn't playing well it makes it difficult for those role players to do their jobs.

No, Jamison was brought in to be a second scorer, he couldn't do that. Its simple, your paid, your brought in, you help. No matter what. Not just to hold the ball and than pass to Lebron. You don't bring in Shaqs over inflated contract just to play a role next to Lebron. You expect him to contribute and step up when needed. He was getting paid way too much to expect him just play a minimum role. You dont trade for Jamison just to expect him to be an extra set of hands for ball rotation. You want him to be the second option.

Kobe has won before! he had a bad game 7 but he didn't have back to back awful games in the 2 biggest games of the year. lebron has never won anything, his teammates don't have confidence he can get it done in big games, the lakers know Kob can get it done in a big spot even if he struggles for 45 minutes. They know they can count on him, that is a huge burden off of the role players and allows them to play more relaxed.

If Lebrons teammates didnt have confidence in him, why was everyone on that team so upset that he left? Why are players like Shaq waiting to see what he does in free agency before they decide? This makes no sense. They had too much faith in him and too much confidence in him.

It does speak for itslef that lebron left, he wants a championship handed to him. That's all it tells us.

Why would it be alright for him to take the money in lue of a championship instead of take a championship in lue of money? Why would he want to do all the work in Cleveland when Shaq is about to be resigned at the MLE just to sit out another 40 games, come in during the playoffs, and not contribute to the cause. Even if Lebron took a paycut, nobody wanted to come to Miami.

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They are starting over b/c their version of Jordan walked away from the team. This is equivalent to Michael Jordan becoming a FA after the 1990 season b/c he didn't think he could ever beat Detroit. Scottie Pippen wasn't considered really good until after they started winning titles, he was considered this soft guy who couldn't play against the big boys. If Jordan could have left and did leave we'd all think of that Bulls team the way you guys think of Clevalnd right now.

Yes but by todays standards of the NBA Scottie Pippen is Jordan. Cleveland had no such person to back up Lebron. No matter how you slice it Scottie was probably the second best option in NBA history. He played lock down defense and although his numbers may not have shown it in stats, it shows more on the type of player that Jordan was, not the type of player that Scottie isnt.

He left cleveland to be handed a title, there's a difference btw help and forming a super team.

Replied earlier but I'll go into it even more.

In his seven years in Cleveland, I'm surprised that nobody has picked up on the MJ comparison and how Lebron doesn't want or need to be "the Man". He is fascilitator . He's not Jordan, He's more Magic Johnson. This is the reason that you take him out of the "next jordan" debate. Not because he left Cleveland, b/c he never tried to assume that role. I have been saying it from the first day that I saw him play.

Antawn Jamison has averaged 20 PPg in his NBA career, in Pippen's 17 year career he only averaged over 20 FOUR times and averaged 16 PPG in his career. he had a 2nd scoring option.

Again, Pippen and Jamisons stats don't tell the whole story. All it does is tell you the type of person that the first option was, not the type of person either of these guys are. Why can't the people that are against the Lebron move see that Jamison is better suited coming off the bench as a 6th instead a second option. He played too soft on the perimeter and caused James to pick up too much slack when they were on the floor together.

I think these two articles by this guy are probably the best for his argument for leaving and "being handed a championship"


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[nyjunc]

Lebron is probably my least favorite player on the Heat. He's barely in the top 5 of players that I used to rush to go watch play in south beach. Kobe being right behind Dwade as a main draw to get me down there to watch some games. But Gilbert just made me understand what Lebron did by leaving. Mike Browns system was horrible along with no help is the biggest reason he couldn't get it done when it mattered. No favoritism, just understanding.



For the same reason he's been called the chosen one for the past decade, the media has total control over whats being said and who's being favored.




No, Jamison was brought in to be a second scorer, he couldn't do that. Its simple, your paid, your brought in, you help. No matter what. Not just to hold the ball and than pass to Lebron. You don't bring in Shaqs over inflated contract just to play a role next to Lebron. You expect him to contribute and step up when needed. He was getting paid way too much to expect him just play a minimum role. You dont trade for Jamison just to expect him to be an extra set of hands for ball rotation. You want him to be the second option.




If Lebrons teammates didnt have confidence in him, why was everyone on that team so upset that he left? Why are players like Shaq waiting to see what he does in free agency before they decide? This makes no sense. They had too much faith in him and too much confidence in him.



Why would it be alright for him to take the money in lue of a championship instead of take a championship in lue of money? Why would he want to do all the work in Cleveland when Shaq is about to be resigned at the MLE just to sit out another 40 games, come in during the playoffs, and not contribute to the cause. Even if Lebron took a paycut, nobody wanted to come to Miami.

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Yes but by todays standards of the NBA Scottie Pippen is Jordan. Cleveland had no such person to back up Lebron. No matter how you slice it Scottie was probably the second best option in NBA history. He played lock down defense and although his numbers may not have shown it in stats, it shows more on the type of player that Jordan was, not the type of player that Scottie isnt.





Replied earlier but I'll go into it even more.

In his seven years in Cleveland, I'm surprised that nobody has picked up on the MJ comparison and how Lebron doesn't want or need to be "the Man". He is fascilitator . He's not Jordan, He's more Magic Johnson. This is the reason that you take him out of the "next jordan" debate. Not because he left Cleveland, b/c he never tried to assume that role. I have been saying it from the first day that I saw him play.





Again, Pippen and Jamisons stats don't tell the whole story. All it does is tell you the type of person that the first option was, not the type of person either of these guys are. Why can't the people that are against the Lebron move see that Jamison is better suited coming off the bench as a 6th instead a second option. He played too soft on the perimeter and caused James to pick up too much slack when they were on the floor together.

I think these two articles by this guy are probably the best for his argument for leaving and "being handed a championship"


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They were considered favroites b/c a)everyone expected Lebron to eventually take that next step and b)they had the best record in the reg season each of the last 2 years.

I don't disagree that jamison did not do his job.

They know Lebron will eventually win, he's a great player but they have never seen him do it in big games in postseason like the Lakers have w/ Kobe.

Who cares what Garnett says? His situation was completely different than Lebron and he was never on the level of Lebron.

Scottie was a really good player, he was not the 2nd best option in NBA history. If he doesn't get lucky and play most of his career w/ Michael we'd have a very different opinion of him.


Who cares what role he tries to assume? He's an elite player like a Michael or Magic, Magic never would have run away either. Magic was a competitor the way Michael was, Lebron is not the competitor those 2 players were and that is disappointing as a basketball fan.

[jree]

They were considered favroites b/c a)everyone expected Lebron to eventually take that next step and b)they had the best record in the reg season each of the last 2 years.

Agreed

I don't disagree that jamison did not do his job.

They know Lebron will eventually win, he's a great player but they have never seen him do it in big games in postseason like the Lakers have w/ Kobe.

Again, Kobe is my second fav player in the NBA so I say this completley unbiased, Kobe choked extremely hard in game 7. He may not have had two bad games in a row but when it was time to beat win the series, Kobe needed soooo much help. The teams Lebron lost to in the past 2 years were more well rounded teams and ended up playing against Kobes Lakers in the Finals.

Who cares what Garnett says? His situation was completely different than Lebron and he was never on the level of Lebron.

Garnett has a very valid opinion in whats going on. Dan Gilbert was/is running the Cavs the same way the Twolves GM was running them when Garnett was there. Bringing in FA that didn't do enough and relied to heavily on "the kid".

Scottie was a really good player, he was not the 2nd best option in NBA history. If he doesn't get lucky and play most of his career w/ Michael we'd have a very different opinion of him.

If he doesn't get lucky? If Magic doesn't get lucky and LA doesn't win the coin toss...That didn't happen and he bacame who became. Don't try to take anything away from his play by hypothetical scenarios.

Who cares what role he tries to assume? He's an elite player like a Michael or Magic, Magic never would have run away either. Magic was a competitor the way Michael was, Lebron is not the competitor those 2 players were and that is disappointing as a basketball fan.

Did you even read either of those articles? The public should care what role Lebron wants to assume. Not what role we want him to assume. He's a fascilitator. There was nobody to fascilitate the ball to when it came down to running the floor. He never said, I wanna do it alone, I'm the best, I wanna be just like Mike. The public said that about him. Yeah he's an elite player but when but elite players never do it alone.

[JCane]

I don't think LeBron ever embraced "The Chosen One." He's never been comfotable being thrown in Jordan's spotlight. Again, the fans set expectations too high because the media told them to. LeBron has never wanted that burden nor embraced it. Kobe did. Kobe welcomed it. LeBron has always said that he seen himself as more of a distributor and more Magic Johnson-like than Jordan-like.

[nyjunc]

Agreed





Again, Kobe is my second fav player in the NBA so I say this completley unbiased, Kobe choked extremely hard in game 7. He may not have had two bad games in a row but when it was time to beat win the series, Kobe needed soooo much help. The teams Lebron lost to in the past 2 years were more well rounded teams and ended up playing against Kobes Lakers in the Finals.

Garnett has a very valid opinion in whats going on. Dan Gilbert was/is running the Cavs the same way the Twolves GM was running them when Garnett was there. Bringing in FA that didn't do enough and relied to heavily on "the kid".



If he doesn't get lucky? If Magic doesn't get lucky and LA doesn't win the coin toss...That didn't happen and he bacame who became. Don't try to take anything away from his play by hypothetical scenarios.



Did you even read either of those articles? The public should care what role Lebron wants to assume. Not what role we want him to assume. He's a fascilitator. There was nobody to fascilitate the ball to when it came down to running the floor. He never said, I wanna do it alone, I'm the best, I wanna be just like Mike. The public said that about him. Yeah he's an elite player but when but elite players never do it alone.

Kobe was bad in game 7 but he's been great in so many big games he gets a pass. Where are all the great Lebron performances in big spots where he has earned a pass?

Orlando was a 1 man show and they beat Cleveland last year.

Garnett doesn't have a valid opinion, he's not in the Lebron category and his struggles in a then powerful west had nothing to do w/ Lebron. Garnett couldn't even get out of rd 1 except ofr 1 year. Lebron has been consistently out of rd 1 and has reached multiple conf finals and the finals.

Magic was a winner, he won in college and then won in the NBA. The lakers had talent but they weren't winning titles during that era until they got Magic. Magic would have found a way to win anywhere.


I didn't read the articles. I know he's not a competitor the way Magic or Michael were and again that's disappointing as a basketball fan.