LMAO @ Horace Grant. If I tried to use the Horace Grant argument you'd laugh it off the way you did David Robinson. GMAFB with Horace Grant. I never said anyone on those Jordan teams were great with the exception of Pippen because he was great.
EVERYONE took advantage of a Jordan-less NBA. You can't say the NBA was watered down without Jordan. There were some great teams in the league when Jordan was playing. But Jordan and Pippen along with Phil Jackson were on different levels.
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The great teams were a thing of the past by the time Jordan started winning championships- TRULY great teams. I think really only the Lakers since the Bulls have been truly great and MAYBE the Spurs from '03-'07.
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Originally Posted by JCane
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ok a couple things. I don't think Cleveland's supporting cast is as bad as a lot of people make them out to be, I just think Mike Brown had a horrible system in place. Mo Williams made a name for himself being a driving PG in Milwaukee as both a backup and a starter. In Cleveland they made him a jump shooter. Antawn Jamison has been an 18 and 8 guy his whole career with an occasional 20 10 season, he goes to Cleveland and becomes a jump shooter. Not saying Cleveland won't make the playoffs next year (they could), but a big problem was Mike Brown's offensive philosophy; have LeBron bring the ball down, put Big Z at the high post, and let LeBron go from there. Cleveland had 2 guys last year who are comfortable as spot up shooters; Anthony Parker and Daniel Gibson. While others are ok 3 point shooters, it's not their forte. Another prime example is how Andre Iguodola and the 6ers really started to flourish after AI was traded, they no longer had to be spot up guys (or how Harpring, Salmons, and Stackhouse all developed once they got away from AI). Problem in Philly was A)Letting Andre Miller walk and B)Trying to force a system on the players.
Also gotta agree with Junc, the 90 Bulls were of comparable talent. Scottie Pippen made his first All-Star team that year averaging just under 18 a game. Horace Grant was next averaging just under 13. Bill Cartwright was the 4th leading scorer at just under 10. What really helped the Bulls was A)MJ was still a god B)Pippen was blossuming into a shutdown defender (well... he started getting that title after how he played against Magic in the finals) and C)They had a bunch of role players that knew their roles. Paxson, Armstrong, and Hodges were great spot up shooters and Livingston, Grant, and Cartwright were good low post defenders.
During the 2nd 3-peat the Bulls had MJ and Pippen dominating on offense, and Rodman dominating the boards. BUT they also had the best 6th man in the NBA in Toni Kukoc. A very capable and underrated PG in Ron Harper. One of the greatest 3 point shooters ever in Steve Kerr. And Luc Longley.
Again gotta go with the fist Houston Rockets championship team being carried by The Dream. Hakeem averaged 27 during the regular season. Otis Thorpe was next with 14 so it's not like he had a lot of pressure on him. In fact, that Houston team during the year had Maxwell and Smith also average over 10 points, and Horry just under at 9.9. During the playoffs, Hakeem averaged just under 29 ppg while Vernon Maxwell averaged just under 14. This was the year Hakeem won MVP and DPOY in the same year. For comparison both Jamison and Williams both averaged just under 16 a game, Shaq averaged 12, while Z, Hickson, West, and Varajeo averaged beteen 8 and 10 points a game. During the playoffs again you had 4 guys averaging double digit points.
The first Spurs championship team had 3 guys averaging over 10 ppg. Duncan with 21, Robinson with just under 16, and Elliot with 11. Avery Johnson and Mario Ellie both avered just under 10 but the next highest scorer was Jaren Jackson at just over 6. During the playoffs Duncan shot up to 23, and Avery Johnson to just under 13, but that was a boring series. The 2nd championship team was a more balanced team, but they still relied really heavily on Duncan (winning on a near quadruple double in game 6)
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The Best
Chicago Bulls had COMPARABLE talent to this recent Cleveland team?? Uh, no lol. Not even close. Just because Pippen averages 18 and Jamison averages 18 doesn't make the talent comparable. Pippen is worlds better than Jamison. Those dudes never stood around and just watched Jordan. Those dudes moved well without the ball and everyone rebounded. Cleveland was just awful. Listen at the names you guys are dropping. Anthony Parker. Daniel Gibson. Jamario Moon. Who the **** are these cats??
This is getting insane....If the Cavs had any talent close to what either of you guys are saying (not you jcane) compared to the jordan-less Bulls, they would have won a Title in this "watered down NBA". Instead, they defered the ball and all the weight onto Lebrons shoulders and said run with it. THose guys are bums with the exception of J.J. Hickson and he's nowhere near the talent that Pippen was, not yet atleast. Go to any Cavs forums and read half of their posts. They see those guys and understand first hand what Cleveland was all about and they know that that whole roster is nothing without James.
Stop reading stats, b/c in this case, it means nothing when your comparing a current Cavs roster to a past Bulls or Rockets roster. Shaq didn't play the whole season and he might have cost the Cavs the series against Boston cause he tried to do too much. Dan Gilbert thought he was doing something new by bringing in Shaq when in fact he was doing something old. Really really old. See who steps up when James is injured or is having an off game in the playoffs. Nobody. Cavs and Bulls is dead argument. Plain and simple.
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"I personally guarantee that the Cleveland Cavaliers will win an NBA Championship before the self-titled former 'king' wins one."
-Dan Gilbert
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Originally Posted by jree
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If lebron would have played like the star he is supposed to be in postseason then he and Cle would have a title.
Just can't let it ride can you lol.
LeBron James: #1
Antwan Jamison: #2
End of story for the Cavaliers.
If lebron was as great as people think he'd have a championship. if he could play w/ the pressure on he'd have a championship. He's just like Peyton pre 2006(and post 2006) and ARod pre 2009 for now. Great reg season players who cannot get it done in the biggest of spots.
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Originally Posted by JCane
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He's only as great as you made him out to be in your own mind. Don't fault him for that. LeBron is a GREAT player. He's probably the best player in the league although I wouldn't argue against Kobe. But don't fault him because he hasn't lived up to your expectations. Like I said, basketball is a showman's sport. Fans make it about one guy. Then again, fans always make it about one guy. You proved that by mentioning Peyton Manning and Alex Rodriguez.
Ultimately, basketball is still a team sport. And if your TEAM isn't as good as your opponent's TEAM then you aren't winning. It doesn't get any simpler than that. It's common sense. If LeBron is a 1 playing with a bunch of 3's and 4's against a team with a 1 and a bunch of 2's and 3's...LeBron isn't winning. I don't care how great he is. All of this "He has to carry the team on his back on his own!" It's Nonsense. Defeats the purpose of team sports. But fans are so blinded by the media because they've become so dependent on them for information.
Basketball is one of the few sports where one great individual can help make a team great. He wasn't surrounded w/ the 1972-73 Sixers, he had competent talent around him in an age w/ no great teams to have to get through. He should have been able to win.
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Originally Posted by JCane
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