Merged X12: Ongoing Henne vs. Sanchez Debate...

[butta247]

- This is the bias stuff that gets me when I read a response from you. Henne stepped in with 'zero pressure'?? Really? Would this be your 'professional' opinion on that or are you just pulling it out of thin air?

- "BUT Sanchez stepped up when we needed him most and henne stepped back when you needed him most."


So Sanchez "stepped up" and had games like;


24-14win 12com 15att 80% 182yrds 1TD 0INT 139.4 Rating - Had a great game but looking at the attempts wasn't asked to do much.

17-14win 12com 23att 52.2% 100yrds 1TD 1INT 60.1 Rating - Is this another game you would describe as he "stepped up"?

17-30Lost 17com 30att 56.7% 257yrds 2TD 1INT 93.3 Rating - I don't want to go back and see where he got most of his yards from, if it was after the Jets were forced to pass or not, because I didn't watch the game.

The point I am trying to make here is your defense and running game WERE the reasons the Jets won against the Bangels and the Chargers(although if there were ever a team as notorious as the Braves in baseball come post season it is the Chargers) and not Sanchez "stepping up".

While Sanchez finished his playoffs with the best rookie stats I fail to see where he "stepped up" according to these stats that he finished with.

It wouldn't bother me so much because I liked how Sanchez played in the playoffs but when you come on here saying Sanchez stepped up and immediately follow that up with Henne stepped back. It's that bias sentence. It's a TEAM GAME. You honestly think if the Jets made Sanchez carry the team that you would have won those two playoff games? Hell, it was BECAUSE of Sanchez that you almost didn't make the playoffs.

haha cremember junc is in the "sports" business so his professional opinions are correct

[butta247]

haha cremember junc is in the "sports" business so his professional opinions are correct

and he went to the world series so we definitely know he knows what he is talking about

[eifmp]

Yes, generally starting QBs practice with the first team. I don't think that's a bold statement at all. I won't downplay playing behind Pennington. I think that's huge, and certainly compared to Kellen Clemens.

I don't really understand the point of the second and third paragraph. Henne played better. Talent is irrelevant in this context...you can be the most talented QB to ever play, but if you play like crap and throw twice as many INTs as TDs, then your talent isn't translating.

To the people saying "Well, Sanchez stepped up in his biggest spots", you're having short term memory and only recalling the playoffs. Henne led game winning drives. He also made some huge 4th quarter and OT mistakes. The Titans game comes to mind (mostly because I was in the stands for that game), but to say that Henne shrank when he needed to step up is ignorance.

Your first paragraph: See that's my point...Sanchez was never behind Kellen Clemens, or anyone else, to learn anything at the NFL level. I also noticed how you mentioned about Henne not practicing with the first team (which I'm sure he did), but you didn't reference the other points of my previous rebuttal. About Henne studying the playbook, studying video, getting used to the speed of an NFL game all of those things over a complete NFL season: All advantages he had over Sanchez.

Your second paragraph: I think you DO understand the difference between playing better and having more talent. All the aforementioned advantages I stated in the paragraph above gave Henne and advantage going into his first NFL game that Sanchez never had. A rookie at the QB position in the NFL can be very talented. But that talent doesn't always translate in that rookie season for many reasons. Maybe his eyes have yet to register complex NFL defenses a 2nd year QB might have studied previously. That has nothing to do with talent. The game might be too fast for the rookie QB and it takes time and experience to get used to that. That has nothing to do with talent either. Or, it could be that the rookie QB just made some bad decisions, reads, and maybe some miscalculations. So when a rookie QB throws twice as many touchdowns as interceptions it might not always be the talent (or lack thereof), that person can turn out to be Jamarcus Russell or John Elway; both of whom threw at least twice as many INT as TD's in their rookie seasons.

My point is Sanchez can be terrible, average, above average, or even great, but one rookie season doesn't give the whole story. And if anybody thinks that it does tell the whole story, please elaborate. I mean, Dolphins fans are comparing him to a QB who sat and learned for an entire NFL season. The fact that you're even doing this means the battle is closer that it should be, even if Henne has the (slight) nod at the moment (not after next season though).

[fakespike]

sanchez is to henne, as o'brien is to marino. this will be sorted out in another year or two. i think obrien started a probowl around 86, only to crash and burn like all other jet turds soon thereafter. wont matter though, as sanchez's "playmaker" moves hopping around the pocket are going to get him killed or left with brain damage.

[Bonedoc7777]

henne is way better, sanchez is rex grossman just wait

[GothicPhin]

You know I think they both have ability for sure. From what I saw last year it seemed that Henne was able to overcome making mistakes better last year. Sometimes it seemed when sanchez started to have a bad game it went from bad to worse very quickly. With that said he was a rookie and did not really have any solid veteren mentor on the team. At this point in time both of their futures look bright but I would say I think Henne has the advantage. Of course I am a little biased.

This is an excellent point that can't be overlooked. I cannot remember the game, in which Henne really screwed up. He threw a really bad pick late in the game, but overcame that with composure to lead the team to a win. That shows mental toughness and fortitude. In my opinion, that's stepping up. Conversely, Sanchez, wilted after making mistakes, and later had to be coddled and protected to limit his mistakes.

[zackmandude63]

What are thier head-to-head records again? Thanks!

[jfaulknercahill]

sanchez played 1 year in college, and henne had a bunch. why are we even arguing this. cant compare them yet.

[nyjunc]

I didn't come up with this it was Phrozen Phish from Phinsider.com did, but this is probably the best arguement for Henne that i have seen in this debate.

Who cares about 300 yd games? b./c Henne was ineffective early in games and had to throw a million times that makes him better?

If Sanchez had as many attempts as henne he would have thrown for 150 more yards.

Again, who cares about # of games w/ 20 completions? Henne's last 2 20 comp games? both losses in the 2 biggest games of the year for Miami.

# of TD passes in the 4th qtr of a win? So it's Sanchez's fault that our D blew a lead against Miami in Miami and that we gave up 3 non-opffensive Tds to Miami at home? OR that we ran for a TD in the 4th qtr? This is so silly.

Henne is 7-6 and Sanchez 10-8, 10-8 looks a hell of alot better when you consider he's 2-1 in the playoffs w/ both wins being road wins.

In Miami's 3 most impoprtant games- Henne 0-3
In NYJ's 3 most important games- Sanchez 2-1


Sanchez was a ROOKIE, it's not good for rookies to throw 30-40+ times a game. Henne had a year to learna nd came in w/ NO pressure w/ the team 0-3 already. Once he faced pressure in dec he played his worst football while Sanchez played his best in our biggest games.

- This is the bias stuff that gets me when I read a response from you. Henne stepped in with 'zero pressure'?? Really? Would this be your 'professional' opinion on that or are you just pulling it out of thin air?

- "BUT Sanchez stepped up when we needed him most and henne stepped back when you needed him most."


So Sanchez "stepped up" and had games like;


24-14win 12com 15att 80% 182yrds 1TD 0INT 139.4 Rating - Had a great game but looking at the attempts wasn't asked to do much.

17-14win 12com 23att 52.2% 100yrds 1TD 1INT 60.1 Rating - Is this another game you would describe as he "stepped up"?

17-30Lost 17com 30att 56.7% 257yrds 2TD 1INT 93.3 Rating - I don't want to go back and see where he got most of his yards from, if it was after the Jets were forced to pass or not, because I didn't watch the game.

The point I am trying to make here is your defense and running game WERE the reasons the Jets won against the Bangels and the Chargers(although if there were ever a team as notorious as the Braves in baseball come post season it is the Chargers) and not Sanchez "stepping up".

While Sanchez finished his playoffs with the best rookie stats I fail to see where he "stepped up" according to these stats that he finished with.

It wouldn't bother me so much because I liked how Sanchez played in the playoffs but when you come on here saying Sanchez stepped up and immediately follow that up with Henne stepped back. It's that bias sentence. It's a TEAM GAME. You honestly think if the Jets made Sanchez carry the team that you would have won those two playoff games? Hell, it was BECAUSE of Sanchez that you almost didn't make the playoffs.

The team was 0-3 and the season was just about done. he came in as a backup aftre the starter got hurt w/ the team at 0-3, he didn't face any real pressure to win until Decemer when they controlled their own desitny to get into the playoffs- how did that work out?


You are talking about ME being biased and throwing out sill stats?

Go watch those 3 playoff games and then tell me what you think. He was 12-15 but if not for 2 big drops would have been 14-15 w/ another TD and about 60+ more yds.

In SD his #s weren't good but he made 2-3 HUGE plays that helped us win the game. W/o those plays we don't win.

So you can criticize him in a win b/c he didn't have enough yards but when he has yards in a loss you have to check when he got those yards?
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Shonn Greene and our D were the top reasons we made the run we did but Mark Sanchez was a major contributor. I don't think we make it that far w/ the 2008 version of Brett Favre that we had.

You fail to see where he stepped up? he played his best football of the season in the biggest games on the road. You don't have to have 350 yds passing and 3 TDs to have a good game.

The only bias statements are coming from yourself, b/c Henne had better #s as he was forced to throw b/c he was ineffective early in games and led them to big deficits you think he was really good in thoe games. Henne played his worst in those last 3 games, don't pay attention to those meaningless #s. He had chances to win all 3 and lost all 3(I know he left the Pitt game early but they would't have won that one either).

Really?

Lets look at the stats...

Last 5 Games

Henne

13NEW
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29 52 335 55.8 29 2 1 80.2 1 -1 -1.0 0
14@JACW
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21 29 220 72.4 25 0 1 79.7 4 1 0.3 1
15@TENL
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(OT)29 46 349 63.0 57 1 3 66.3 2 11 5.5 0
16HOUL
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35 55 322 63.6 35 1 1 78.0 1 10 10.0 0
17PITL
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16 20 140 80.0 24 1 1 91.7 1 0 0.0 0

Completions Att Comp Pct TD Int QB rating
totals 130 202 64.3 5 7 79.18


Sanchez

12CARW
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13 17 154 76.5 26 0 1 79.0 3 27 9.0 0
13@BUFW
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7 15 104 46.7 45 1 0 92.1 1 8 8.0 0
14@TBW
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Did Not Play or did not accumulate any stats.
15ATLL
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18 32 226 56.3 65 1 3 49.7 3 7 2.3 0
16@INDW
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12 19 106 63.2 16 0 0 78.0 2 0 0.0 0
17CINW
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8 16 63 50.0 14 0 0 60.2 2 2 1.0 0

Totals Completions Att CompPct TD Int QB rating

68 99 68.6 2 4 71.8


So the numbers are pretty similar. How exactly did Sanchez step up? How did Henne step back?

Here is what i do notice though. I notice that Henne was let loose, free to throw it all over the place. Yes he made mistakes but you live and you learn (hopefully) while Sanchez was some what protected. We can both agree (or at least the logical NFL fans) that at the time Sanchez had weapons unlike Henne. So we will see what happens this year.

when you expand the games to make your QB look better that skews the #s.

Miami's 3 biggest games- @Ten, vs. Hou, vs. Pitt:

80-121, 811 yds, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 76.1 rating, 0-3 record against 3 non playoff teams

NYJ's 3 biggest games: playoffs @ Cincy, @ SD, @ Indy

41-68, 539 yds, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, 92.7 rating, 2-1 record

Others have thrown out the numbers, and in the past ive jumped on the fact that our defense gave up 84 combined points during the last 3 games(and we were still within a field goal/touchdown of tieing or winning those games), as well as debating the "no pressure" thing while driving a team in a 3 game hole to playoff contention.

So ill just ask this: instead of the 1st ranked defense the Jets were the 22nd, and you lost Thomas Jones and Alan Faneca halfway through the season as well, during that time, as Nick Mangold playing injured or out of games: does Mark Sanchez win 5 games last year?

Keep those factors in mind, for a second question ill ask this: lets say the jets don't trade for Edwards, and Cotchery is a rookie: does Mark Sanchez win 2 games?

Trying to figure out how to ask about having to start 2 rookie corners seemed like to much of a hassle, but you get the jist.
Despite all those factors mentioned above(and many more), Henne was 7-6 as a starter, while Sanchez was 8-7. Very compairable, but you have to admit that Henne and the phins would have stood a damn good chance against the Colts and Bengals second/third stringers.

We lost leon washington(the only pass receiving back we had) and kris Jenkins for most of the year.

Thomas Jones was hurt and terrible the last month including the playoffs and last I checked w/ Jones effective and w/o leon he led us to the AFC Championship Game.

[jetsattack]

Just wait till they miss Jones and Washington and Faneca. We are loaded for the future and they got older.

i really need you to explain to me how we got older at runningback and left guard. and fwiw.....greene was superior bvack than jones was last year.....and he's taking over for him. faneca was the worst strating lineman we had. his pass blocking was terrible and his run blocking was adequate at best. washington was gone most of the season and he now has to try to play with a rod in his leg. while i would have loved to have a healthy leon washington back......he may not ever be back to what he once was. i think you guys are going to be surprised by how good our running game will be. barring injuries of course. also where else exactly are we really old? the d-line is the one unit where we appear to be getting slightly old. but we have some young guys on the depth chart who ryan is pretty high on. and since ryan is the best defensive coach in the league i trust him to know what he needs. thefact that he didn't address it at all is not just an oversight on his part. he knows what he has......jenkins, who is maybe the most dominant NT in the game, went down and our defense was still number 1. and that was with revis and some scrubs at cb and a p*ssy at safety named rhodes. i can't wait to see the comments on this board when the jets go out and start playing some great football.