Did Tannehill really overthrow Hartline?

[ckparrothead]

I'm not downing Tannehill when I say it was overthrown. It doesn't matter if Hartline runs a 4.75 and it doesn't matter his role. When a receiver is that open, you gotta hit him. Again, I think Tannehill will almost always make that connection. But no one is perfect. Perhaps wind played a role in the pass. Regardless, all QBs miss. This looked like an obvious miss to me. I played QB for 18 years. I had my share of misses. No excuses. Just missed.

This is the attitude you have to have about it if you're Ryan Tannehill, and this is the attitude you have to have about it if you're Joe Philbin/Mike Sherman/Zac Taylor and you're directly coaching Ryan Tannehill, but if you're really analyzing the situation and trying to figure out what REALLY happened, what what (if anything) you can DO about it...then this is not the appropriate attitude to have about the play. That's where I'm coming from on it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying it's about point of view.

[finjim]

I can't believe this thread has gotten this far without somebody bringing up Marshall. Surely he would have caught that one!
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[ckparrothead]

These guys work on timing in practice. I dont buy the idea that a WR doesnt catch a ball because he's not fast enough. Speed is a limitation known before the play. You wouldn't throw the same kind of deep ball to Mike Wallace that you would throw to Anthnoy Fasano. Its not like Hartline's speed is unkown to Tannehill, or he's not used to this WR running routes. They work on timing in practice, especially in the WCO. If a WR isnt fast enough, then the QB has to make a throw accordingly.

And as far as throwing late, Tannehill should have thrown when he planted his foot on the last step of his drop. Instead, he take a few baby steps forward after he planted. This was a timinig play, and those few steps make a big difference in Hartline's route. Had he thrown at the botton of his drop like it was designed, Hartline would have looked up at exatly the right time.

Two things.

1. Your point about practicing with one another and getting chemistry, therefore knowing the depth you need to throw for each guy...is not really relevant to what I'm saying. I'm sorry but it isn't. I'm talking about ERROR. I'm admitting that there was an ERROR factor in Ryan Tannehill's throw. He overthrew it by about 24 inches. However the ERROR in that throw amounted to approximately 1% of the total throw distance. When you consider that it was windy outside and that the 160 feet that Ryan Tannehill threw it represents most quarterbacks' (even strong-armed ones) functional maximum, it's actually pretty incredible that the throw was only off by 1%. What I'm getting at is the MARGIN FOR ERROR. It is a fact that Brian Hartline, because of how slow he is, leaves your quarterback an unusually small MARGIN FOR ERROR...to where a throw that was actually in my opinion ABOVE NORMAL in accuracy...still wasn't good enough.

2. Your other point about the timing of the throw, we're just not going to agree here and that's fine. This wasn't a 7 step drop from center where you could read the defense the whole way. This was a play-action pass where Ryan Tannehill had to turn his back to the defense and then get his head around, re-acquire the defense, and CHECK THE SAFETY before he threw the ball. I'll at least give you an example of why I wouldn't do it the way you say, though.


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I just remembered this play off the top of my head and you'll notice that even on this play Chad Henne didn't do what you talk about and release the ball right off the back foot at the bottom of the drop with no hitch. But the problem for Henne on this play is a big one. You turn your back to the defense, you can't see how the safeties are reacting to the play action. In this case, Chad Henne even with a hitch step still didn't see the fact that the safeties had backed up and had not clamped on the play-action. But I'll give you another example.


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There's a play action deep pass by Drew Brees. Notice how he took even longer than Ryan Tannehill did to re-locate the defense and decide how he was going to throw the ball.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL quarterbacks EVERY TIME take as much of a hitch step as Tannehill did on that play. Here's a play action by Tom Brady:


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Clearly on this play Brady took marginally less of a hitch than Ryan Tannehill did. But notice the throw distance. This was only a 20 yard route. The timing is supposed to be quicker. Brian Hartline's route was a 40 yard route. Under no circumstances, unless it's an extended scramble where Hartline comes back to the football, does Brian Hartline catch that ball at a depth less than 40 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. Different route depth CALLS for the different timing.

Which is what you see when you look at THIS Tom Brady play action touchdown, a 41 yarder to Wes Welker. On this play Tom Brady actually took the timing even further, taking enough time to look off the safety.


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And here's another Tom Brady play action pass where he took the same exact hitch step that Ryan Tannehill took in order to re-locate the defense after turning his back to it.


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Based on all this I find it difficult to say that the problem was that Ryan Tannehill took a hitch step to re-locate the safety after turning his back to the defense on the play fake. It just doesn't foot.

[J Tes]

I think Tannehill could have taken a little off of the pass but my first reaction to the play after it happened was "WTF Hartline". It looked and still looks to me as if he was having a hard time tracking the ball. Whether or not that is the reason the ball fell incomplete I don't know, but he did play the ball poorly while it was in the air

[67Stang]

I am a Tannehill fan and he just plain missed him. He breaks open and looks for the ball and Tanne throws it, you don't put your head down after the ball is thrown and then try to refind it... I mean seriously, get real!

[Phindog]

He plain missed him by a 6-10 inches on a 40+ yard pass in 20-25 mph wind.
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[Zounds]

Two things.

Two responses.

You are basing your "unusually small margin of error" for Brian Hartline on other WR's speed, and other WR's speed are irrelevant to Tannehill's throw on this play. You are basing his "margin" by cotrasting other wide receivers. I am saying that it is based on his own specific speed. It all relative to who you are throwing it to. Overthowing a Mike Wallace by 2 feet is the same as overthrowing Javorki Lane by 2 feet because the QB would throw it with velocity relative to that players specific speed, not relative to all WR's speed.

Second, this is a timing play, and play action doesnt change that. Hartline knows excatly when and where he will turn and look for the ball before the ball is even snapped. He didnt turn early. He turned by play design. Thats the WCO for you.

[CANDolphan]

You'd be better served finding the pass that someone said was off by several yards that Hartline had to adjust to..

VERY first and foremost - that was me so you just gave me credit while simultaneously attempting to discredit me.

And all due respect to CKParrot but in my experience, he's wrong. Hartline is typically your second read on that pass, and it was clear that he was getting past that safety when you watch the All 22. I didn't like the hitch, I think it showed hesitation.

Nowhere, Phindog, did I say it was a terrible throw. People in this forum need to stop taking the extreme opposition of people who disagree with them. It's debate 101. Just because I said it was Tannehill's fault does not mean that I said it was an awful egregious throw. The egregious throw was the pass that I already brought up, the one you seem to think I should "go find". All I said was that it was not a result of Hartline "looking back at the ball for too long". That is straight up hog wash.

His overthrow of Hartline in the endzone was equally as bad. His release point was way too high, and he simply let the ball go too soon. That happens, he had a hand in his face.

The severe underthrow I honestly haven't looked back at, nor do I remember well enough to comment on.

Also, CK, your examples are great, and it's an incredibly thorough and well thought out argument, but you're attempting to compare apples and oranges in my opinion. We run a west coast variant, with a very X receiver heavy press set. Notice how Tannehill checks his Z first (or so he appears to) before looking up top and seeing Hartline get the move. I'm convinced that Hartline is his 2nd read for that reason alone. Hartline will never be the first read there because you simply can't use it as your first read. It's a developing play, not a twitch play.

At this point Im parroting some of the things I picked up on listening in on meetings but hey what are you gonna do.

[Phindog]

VERY first and foremost - that was me so you just gave me credit while simultaneously attempting to discredit me.

Sorry wasnt trying at all to give you credit...

First Thread

Also I think you guys need to watch some more deep plays. What Hartline does is pretty textbook. He looked back the moment he had his clear separation. The throw was late just as much as it was overthrown. Hartline looked up immediately, as he was trying to track the ball the moment he had the chance to catch it. Sadly, it was not out of Tannehill's hands by then and took a while to get there.

"Don't take your eye off the ball" mean anything to anyone? Would you rather he see the ball being thrown, decide "okay I better look forward for 2.8 seconds THEN track the ball again" and then completely miss the pass? No. You give your receiver a legitimate shot.

Tanny will get better but let's be real.

Second thread

Nowhere, Phindog, did I say it was a terrible throw. People in this forum need to stop taking the extreme opposition of people who disagree with them. It's debate 101. Just because I said it was Tannehill's fault does not mean that I said it was an awful egregious throw. The egregious throw was the pass that I already brought up, the one you seem to think I should "go find". All I said was that it was not a result of Hartline "looking back at the ball for too long". That is straight up hog wash.

His overthrow of Hartline in the endzone was equally as bad. His release point was way too high, and he simply let the ball go too soon. That happens, he had a hand in his face.

The severe underthrow I honestly haven't looked back at, nor do I remember well enough to comment on.

This is an extreme point of view IMO,his release point was not too high IMO ball landed too close to intended target.

Just the fact that you say it was late as much as overthrown and get real are on the extreme side.The video shows a receiver touching the ball with his fingertips highly impossible to be both late and overthrown,that in itself is an extreme point of view IMO.My point of view as was stated way up is there are too many variables,to say what it was and that the fact that it was so close only players and coaches know if it was Tanny,Hartline,wind or a low flying bug the ball bounced off of.

[hrpuffin]

We suck because we never make the play when its there. And that goes for every guy on the team. We have a losers mentality. WE HAVE NOT WON A GAME WHEN TRAILING BY 7 IN THE 4TH QUARTER IN OVER A DECADE. That is a losers mentality! Worst thing is I watch every game and think we have a chance, but we have no chance until the mindset around Miami changes.