Firearms in your home?

[flynryan15]

After 9/11 the Govt implemented the Federal Flight Deck Officer program airline pilots could volunteer and if they pass the screening process they are sent to be trained by the Unites States Air Marshall's and fly armed. Perhaps it's time for a program like this for educators? Va Tech Denver and Newtown all these guys killed themselves rather then face authority perhaps just te threat of armed conflict in the school would deter them

[TheWalrus]

By the way, how is The Science of Evil? Due to spending so much of my time reading scientific journals and research papers, I stay away from most everything psychology related in my free time. I've heard mixed reviews on it. The professor I'm working under isn't the biggest fan, and I can see why because that brief snippet you posted isn't incorrect, but it leaves you with partial information. But others I've talked to, both in the psychology field and in other fields, really enjoyed it. I'm trying to decide if I want to use some of my free time reading my psychology stuff. I love the field, but sometimes I just get tired of reading about brain chemistry...

I thought it was fascinating, though again it isn't my field. As for the little snippet I posted about, there's a good chance I'm just remembering the book wrong, too. Maybe I got the basics of what Cohen was arguing right but as you're studying it any false characterization by me -- or even any difference of opinion between you, your professor, and Cohen -- is likely to stand out as a huge error.

I doubt there's much you would learn from it if that's your field. It was definitely pitched at the level of an amateur, not unlike Stephen Hawking's books on cosmology and physics. Better to spend your time reading things that broaden you as a person, I would think.

Speaking of this, I just ordered Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow. Have you read that or heard anything about it? I read Blink about two years ago and this is supposed to be sort of a more weighty, semi-counter argument to that.

[SkapePhin]

I have absolutely no doubt about that. While we'll never know for sure since his mom never took him in, this sounds like a psychotic break. I think 2 things could have happened. He is either paranoid schizophrenic and probably thought he was helping everyone by killing them before someone else did, and then himself when he thought they caught him, or he had something snap with this whole Mayan apocalypse nonsense coming up. Those with schizophrenia perseverate on things that are supernatural or science fiction, so I have a hard time believing that the timing of this is coincidence. Either one would have been easily avoided if he was seeing a psychiatrist regularly...

I think the timing had more to do with the Oregon shooter than the Mayan Prophecy. I was watching a clip of a forensic psychologist the other day who explained that media coverage of mass shootings often leads to more mass shootings. In fact, he claimed that after every highly publicized mass shooting you can expect 1 or 2 similar shootings within a week. This clip was filmed years ago, so it wasn't in response to this incident.

I think this was just another case of young guy who internalized all his aggressive, violent thoughts and finally let it all put in the most destructive way possible. I definitely don't think this was a psychotic break where he thought he was helping people. He was dressed in fatigues. He chose an elementary school to attack. I think he was jar boring some sort of hatred against his mother and wanted to cause her as much harm possible, even more than death.

[Locke]

I thought it was fascinating, though again it isn't my field. As for the little snippet I posted about, there's a good chance I'm just remembering the book wrong, too. Maybe I got the basics of what Cohen was arguing right but as you're studying it any false characterization by me -- or even any difference of opinion between you, your professor, and Cohen -- is likely to stand out as a huge error.

I doubt there's much you would learn from it if that's your field. It was definitely pitched at the level of an amateur, not unlike Stephen Hawking's books on cosmology and physics. Better to spend your time reading things that broaden you as a person, I would think.

Speaking of this, I just ordered Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow. Have you read that or heard anything about it? I read Blink about two years ago and this is supposed to be sort of a more weighty, semi-counter argument to that.

I've read some passages from it, but never the whole thing. Apparently it is pretty much just a compilation of the work he has already published, so I'm sure I've studied most of it at one time or another. His work on the 2 systems of thought processes is good stuff, and very informative. Since you're pretty politically well-versed, I think it'll entertain you after reading up on that and then seeing how it applies to some of our more vocal public figures. If I remember correctly, he also did the study on framing, which is always good for a laugh. I know some of the Professors here are starting to add parts of it to their class's reading assignments, though. So that means it reads easier than a research paper.

How is that for your leisure reading, you pick up non-fiction scientific books? Most people go find something a little less dry. Any reading I do in my downtime is always fantasy or science fiction. I get as far away from that stuff as possible. But I also work with it daily, so that does have an effect...

[Locke]

I think the timing had more to do with the Oregon shooter than the Mayan Prophecy. I was watching a clip of a forensic psychologist the other day who explained that media coverage of mass shootings often leads to more mass shootings. In fact, he claimed that after every highly publicized mass shooting you can expect 1 or 2 similar shootings within a week. This clip was filmed years ago, so it wasn't in response to this incident.

I think this was just another case of young guy who internalized all his aggressive, violent thoughts and finally let it all put in the most destructive way possible. I definitely don't think this was a psychotic break where he thought he was helping people. He was dressed in fatigues. He chose an elementary school to attack. I think he was jar boring some sort of hatred against his mother and wanted to cause her as much harm possible, even more than death.

That's entirely possible, as well. Something set him off. As for your second paragraph, I disagree. Vehemently. A non-psychotic person doesn't murder 20 kids. There are very few things that are universally taboo in the world, but killing children is one of them. Specifically targeting kids to gun down would be precedent-setting as far as evil goes for a completely sane person. Even the biggest villains of our recent history, i.e. Hitler, killed them as a member of a larger group, never specifically. Nope, I'm relatively certain this was a psychotic episode of some sort. Someone with paranoid schizophrenia in a psychotic break isn't walking around pulling his hair out. A paranoid schizophrenic in the middle of a psychotic break is so convinced that someone or something is coming for him, that it is near impossible to calm them down without sedation. This guy would have lucid, logical conversations with you and know what he was talking about, except he would *know* someone is coming for him. That leaves quite a bit of potential for terrible things to happen, as we saw in CT...

[phinfan3411]

I want to thank Locke for his incredible understanding of people "under the spectrum" of Autism.

I know people are not doing it intentionally, but try to inform yourself a little more before trying to make some kind of a connection between autism or aspergers and what occurred the other day.

My son is autistic, and I have read a few books, but am no expert, every autistic child is different. From what I know, autism would be a trait that would make an individual LESS likely to do something like this, certainly not more.

As Locke has said, better than I could, most of the kids with this issue are so much more rigid, or more likely to do the things they feel are correct. Once they have learned a rule, or a duty, in my opinion, they are much less likely to stray from that rule or duty.

My son is very literal, one of the things I still have to learn is to cut down on the sarcasm with him, he just doesn't get it. Maybe he will in time, but he basically takes you at your word, and as Locke has said has no clue when it comes to visual cues.

[Gonzo]

Like I said extreme views on both sides of the fence spare me your snide comments remember attack the post not the poster! We can go back and forth all day long you aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours! You want to really fix the problem then it starts with legislation forcing mentally ill people to get help and if the refuse then tiring them to a institution for help. I stand by my stance that gun control won't stop a sociopath bent on mass murder.

My point is short of abolishing the Second Ammendment from the Constitution and then rounding up every gun in the country not issued to military or law enforcement and destroying them. You won't stop a crazy person or a criminal from these actions. The only hope is keeping any gun out of the hands of a lunatic and the effort should be focused in that direction. Law makers have already admitted any bill will not be retroactive so as Spesh pointed out those 200,000,000 guns aren't going anywhere.

As a responsible gun owner do I think it is ridiculous his mother left her guns so he could gain access? Absolutely! I think it is criminally insane she took her mentally ill son to a gun range opening his mind to such things for real basic research of a Asspergers Diseases tells you that is a real bad idea! But I'm not naive I know there is no way in hell that this country will ever pass laws taking constitutional rights from a law a bidding citizen because she is the mother of a loon or felon. Guess what Gonzo it won't be just the RNA fighting a bill like that you can guarantee the ACLU will lead the charge.

Keeping "ANY" gun out of a crazed individuals hands is the only real way to stop these acts and sadly there is no real solution!

First, what's extreme about my post? The two extremes are doing absolutely nothing and banning all guns, both of which are ridiculous (and one of which we're actually going to do). The only suggestion I made was better background checks and stricter regulations on who can own a gun, regulations that wouldn't make it illegal for any sane, law-abiding citizen to own a gun for hunting or protection (assault rifles fall under neither). What's funny is that any kind of change to the law is tagged as "extreme." You know what's extreme? Shooting a bunch of kids multiple times with guns he never should have had access too. That's extreme (and not in the cool mountain dew-y way). Second, I never attacked you personally. Any anger is directed at those you describe yourself, the extremists and the do-nothings. It's directed at the fact that 20 kids were brutally murdered and nothing will be done to stop it from happening again because people like shooting assault rifles on the weekend and/or can't stand the thought of funding nationwide mental health treatment because they need that money for ammo.

Sure, a hardcore pyscho can find a way around all of these laws, but tell me one law, just one that is full-proof. All ears. So, again, if a law doesn't have 100% preventive capability, it shouldn't exist, that's how I'm reading these comments. So, why do we have any laws? People still get around them. Why bother? Let's just abolish all law, arm everybody (if they can afford it), and to each his own.

Laws as I described absolutely will stop many murders, not just mass murder. When it comes to mass murder, at the very least it will lower the body count, that's a fact. Lanza may have been able to find a way to acquire a weapon, sure, but with the laws as I described he would have been extremely limited in his options, both regarding weapons, clips, and ammo. Sure, he may still have attacked the school, but I guarantee the there wouldn't be 20 dead kids. If it dropped that number even in half, totally worth it. As for confiscating all assault rifles, where did I say that? A ban on future purchases, including used, with strict laws regarding storage and access. Laws where if you're mentally ill kid gets his hands on them because you're a ****ty parent and don't know any better than to keep a gun in a house with a mentally ill kid, you are charged with whatever he ends up getting charged with, including mass murder. Yes, these laws already exist in some states, but as 9954 pointed out in another thread they often aren't enforced against "grieving parents." **** that, charge them. Their irresponsibility lead to murder. If you keep a gun in the house, you better take every single precaution possible to ensure it's not misused by anybody. If you can't accomplish that, no gun for you.

That being said, as I noted, it's not the only solution as it is only part of the problem. The biggest part is actually the hardest to address: Mental illness. What are your suggestions? The only one I can think of regarding that are state-funded hospitals and treatment, because insurers won't touch it, and if they did, most people wouldn't be able to afford the add-on to their already crazy expensive healthcare plans.

One things for sure, we're the only country where this happens on a regular basis (yes, I know about Norway, their one school (basically) shooting in their entire history vs our 7 so far this year). Do they not have access to guns? Do they not have mentally ill people? Do they not play violent video games or watch violent movies? What's so different? It certainly isn't "prayer in school," as many of them have real separation of church and state unlike us. So, what is it?

No, the fact is, as I mentioned, nothing will be done. We'll all be oh-so-very shocked next time it happens. We'll talk about the extremes, as you mentioned; banning all guns, arming all school employees, how prayer and other nonsense is the solution. And then it will happen again. Vegas should just start putting odds on the body count. Wouldn't be any more disrespectful than not doing anything at all.

[phinfan3411]

How so? I think your search is too basic if you think someone with Asperger's is dangerous. This is what I hate about the media and sensationalism when something like this happens and vague statements about mental health are made. Guaranteed this guy had mental health issues. That I can say unequivocally. I can also say with 85-90% certainty that he had much more going on than Asperger's. Asperger's is a form of autism that manifests in the inability to read social cues, facial expressions, and non-verbal communication. They also tend to be extremely rigid and by-the-book with the rules (which is something most people are ignoring because it doesn't fit their dialogue.) What part of that screams potential killer to you?

I'd put money on him having paranoid schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder. Both of which, if left untreated or unmedicated, have the potential for something like this...

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------



I think the general idea is that if he failed a psych evaluation, no one in the home would be allowed to legally own a gun. How pragmatic that would be is yet to be seen...

Absolutely excellent post, Locke.

You seem to have the same grasp of this subject as the experts at my son's school.

[Locke]

Absolutely excellent post, Locke.

You seem to have the same grasp of this subject as the experts at my son's school.

Thanks man. After four and a half years and more tuition money than I'm ready to acknowledge, I would hope so.
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On a side note, if anyone wants a good idea of what someone with Asperger's is like, watch The Big Bang Theory. It never comes out and says it, but Sheldon has it. They over-exaggerate it some areas for comedy, but that's pretty much it...

[phinfan3411]

Thanks man. After four and a half years and more tuition money than I'm ready to acknowledge, I would hope so.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


On a side note, if anyone wants a good idea of what someone with Asperger's is like, watch The Big Bang Theory. It never comes out and says it, but Sheldon has it. They over-exaggerate it some areas for comedy, but that's pretty much it...

I always wondered about that, love that show.