The '09 -'11 Jets Elite? Yea or Nay?

[peace4all]

We won 5 of our last 6 games, how is that backing in?

we were one of the last 4 teams standing, last 2 in our conference- that is elite.

When did I say the '07 or '11 NYG teams weren't elite? I said ELI wasn't elite, team vs. individual are 2 different arguments. A guy who threw 25 INts in '10 and has led his team to 1 PO app in the last 4 years is not elite, the elite QBs put up big #s and always have their teams in contention. Maybe every once in a while they miss a postseason but not 3 in 4 years and usually it is b/c of injury.

One of the arguments you've made against Eli being elite in 2011 was that he only led his team to a 9-7 record. The question is, how can a team be elite and win the SB with that record, yet the guy who got them there thanks to 8 4th quarter comebacks not be? I'd agree if the team had carried Eli like the jets defense and running game carried Sanchez in 09, but the 2011 giants defense and running game weren't all that great.

What I saw was a guy putting the team on his back in crunch time numerous times en route to a SB win. Take Eli off of the giants 2011 team and they're not elite. If you admit that team was elite, then the factor that made them so(Eli) must also have been elite.

So in my opinion, the correct way to put it would be that what made that giants team elite was the fact that a certain elite quarterback helped them overcome many obstacles on their way to the promised land. The 2009 jets were only a qb away from winning it all and reaching elite status, I bet if Eli had played on that team they would have won the SB.

So if Eli wasn't elite in 2011, neither were the giants, who rode him to a SB win. If the 2011 9-7 giants weren't elite, then neither were the 2009 jets.

[PhinzN703]

You can say that all you want but you'd be a minority on the board. The majority on here act like Miami has had more success than the Jets in recent years, imagine if you actually did?

I disagree that people act that way. You just point out the Dolphins being average for a long time as if we're not allowed to voice an opinion against your thinking the Jets are elite. The Dolphins could go 1-15 for the next 10 years but that has no bearing on whether the Jets are elite or not.

[nyjunc]

One of the arguments you've made against Eli being elite in 2011 was that he only led his team to a 9-7 record. The question is, how can a team be elite and win the SB with that record, yet the guy who got them there thanks to 15 4th quarter comebacks not be? I'd agree if the team had carried Eli like the jets defense and running game carried Sanchez in 09, but the 2011 giants defense and running game weren't all that great.

What I saw was a guy putting the team on his back in crunch time numerous times en route to a SB win. Take Eli off of the giants 2011 team and they're not elite. If you admit that team was elite, then the factor that made them so(Eli) must also have been elite.

So in my opinion, the correct way to put it would be that what made that giants team elite was the fact that a certain elite quarterback helped them overcome many obstacles on their way to the promised land. The 2009 jets were only a qb away from winning it all and reaching elite status, I bet if Eli had played on that team they would have won the SB.

So if Eli wasn't elite in 2011, neither were the giants, who rode him to a SB win. If the 2011 9-7 giants weren't elite, then neither were the 2009 jets.

yeah, leading a team as talented as NYG to only 9 wins in an easy division is a knock against him. he played really well in postseason and deserves credit for that. I can call him an elite postseason QB but true elite QBs aren't missing the playoffs 3 of 4 years in that division.

Putting the team on his back? Victor Cruz put that team on his back on the reg season, all the big plays down the stretch to get into postseason were made by Cruz. The 99 yd TD against us which changed the Giants season. The short pass and run against dallas the next week then when dal was back w/in a score Eli threw a ball up for grabs deep against double coverage and Cruz came down w/ it.

The Giants rode Eli to a SB win? It was Eli who shut out the Falcons? the 2 pts came from Eli and Eli not being able to lead NYG to pts kept Atl in the game for almost 3 qtrs.

It was Eli who held GB to 13 pts in the competitive portion of the game? a team that averaged 35 a game.

It was Eli who forced not one but TWO STs fumbles that set up all of NYG's pts in the 2nd half and OT?

I guess it was Eli who held NE to 17 pts when they averaged 32 a game.


It was all Eli!


Eli deserves credit, he had a very good season in 2011 and was very good in postseason but winning only 9 as a longtime vet w/ a team that talented in a division that bad is not elite. He's 8-1 in his last 3 postseasons, call him an elite postseason QB but he's nowhere near an elite QB in this league.

[PhinzN703]

How did we back in by winning 5 of 6 games? MOST playoff wins, Eli has led his team to MISSING 3 of the last 4 postseasons. if we had '09 and nothing else I'd call it a fluke but back to back title games beating the hottst teams in football on the road in the div rd tells us it was not a fluke.

Your quote above is the final straw for me. Two Super Bowls wins in five years isn't better than 'MOST playoff wins' in 2 years?

[nyjunc]

Your quote above is the final straw for me. Two Super Bowls wins in five years isn't better than 'MOST playoff wins' in 2 years?

who said it wasn't better? you are getting 2 different arguments confused, one about elite teams(which the Giants were in '07 & '11 despite you saying they weren't) and one about elite QBs. 4 playoff wins, 2 title game apps and being a top 4 team 2 straight years makes a team elite, missing 3 of 4 postseasons, throwing 25 INts does not make a QB elite.

[Vaark]

Your quote above is the final straw for me. Two Super Bowls wins in five years isn't better than 'MOST playoff wins' in 2 years?

Actually if we're not gonna draw shifting lines in the sand, it's 2 SBs in 5 years vs 2 postseasons using that same 5 year benchmark (08-12). Holding the jest to the same standard, it ain't too impressive eh?

[nyjunc]

again, poor reading comprehension. read the context of the discussion please.

[peace4all]

yeah, leading a team as talented as NYG to only 9 wins in an easy division is a knock against him. he played really well in postseason and deserves credit for that. I can call him an elite postseason QB but true elite QBs aren't missing the playoffs 3 of 4 years in that division.

Putting the team on his back? Victor Cruz put that team on his back on the reg season, all the big plays down the stretch to get into postseason were made by Cruz. The 99 yd TD against us which changed the Giants season. The short pass and run against dallas the next week then when dal was back w/in a score Eli threw a ball up for grabs deep against double coverage and Cruz came down w/ it.

The Giants rode Eli to a SB win? It was Eli who shut out the Falcons? the 2 pts came from Eli and Eli not being able to lead NYG to pts kept Atl in the game for almost 3 qtrs.

It was Eli who held GB to 13 pts in the competitive portion of the game? a team that averaged 35 a game.

It was Eli who forced not one but TWO STs fumbles that set up all of NYG's pts in the 2nd half and OT?

I guess it was Eli who held NE to 17 pts when they averaged 32 a game.


It was all Eli!


Eli deserves credit, he had a very good season in 2011 and was very good in postseason but winning only 9 as a longtime vet w/ a team that talented in a division that bad is not elite. He's 8-1 in his last 3 postseasons, call him an elite postseason QB but he's nowhere near an elite QB in this league.

So now you're taking credit from Eli because his teammates did their jobs, you know, the jobs they get paid millions to do? Ok...

"All that talent" you speak of were the 27th ranked defense in the reg season and the 32th running game in the league. It's true the Giants have a lot of talent in all 3 phases of the game, but their play(except Eli, Cruz, Nicks, JPP and 1-2 others maybe) was average until the playoffs. Getting to 9-7 and a playoff berth is hardly a knock against Eli in my book, because without him the Giants would probably have done worse than that.

Yeah, the defense, St and run game improved dramatically in the postseason, but how does that mean Eli wasn't elite?

Cruz is a great player and he made some great plays down the stretch, but who was it throwing him the ball? Put Sanchez on that team and I guarantee they don't go as far as they did. Tom Brady has Gronk, Hernandez and Welker, and they make great plays to bail the team out many times, is Brady not elite? Back in his great days, Peyton had Wayne, Harrison and Clark, is Peyton not elite?

Yeah de defense played great in the playoffs, but the quy couldn't have done it all by himself, it's a team game, remember? The Falcons could have scored 20 points for all I care, Eli's 3 TDs would still have been enough to beat them, and none of them were to Cruz BTW. The defense played well against the Packers too, but guess what, 37 points and another 3 TDs still are enough to win almost any game, and again, Cruz didn't have to put the team on his back. Yeah those 2 fumbles won against the 49ers were a huge break, but sometimes you need a little luck to get by. And in the SB, that pass to Manningham was the visual definition of clutch qb play in crunch time.

I'm not saying Eli has been an elite qb this season, or for most of his career, but last year he definitely was, and just like you, I would take him over any other qb in the league in big games.

[nyjunc]

So now you're taking credit from Eli because his teammates did their jobs, you know, the jobs they get paid millions to do? Ok...

"All that talent" you speak of were the 27th ranked defense in the reg season and the 32th running game in the league. It's true the Giants have a lot of talent in all 3 phases of the game, but their play(except Eli, Cruz, Nicks, JPP and 1-2 others maybe) was average until the playoffs. Getting to 9-7 and a playoff berth is hardly a knock against Eli in my book, because without him the Giants would probably have done worse than that.

Yeah, the defense, St and run game improved dramatically in the postseason, but how does that mean Eli wasn't elite?

Cruz is a great player and he made some great plays down the stretch, but who was it throwing him the ball? Put Sanchez on that team and I guarantee they don't go as far as they did. Tom Brady has Gronk, Hernandez and Welker, and they make great plays to bail the team out many times, is Brady not elite? Back in his great days, Peyton had Wayne, Harrison and Clark, is Peyton not elite?

Yeah de defense played great in the playoffs, but the quy couldn't have done it all by himself, it's a team game, remember? The Falcons could have scored 20 points for all I care, Eli's 3 TDs would still have been enough to beat them, and none of them were to Cruz BTW. The defense played well against the Packers too, but guess what, 37 points and another 3 TDs still are enough to win almost any game, and again, Cruz didn't have to put the team on his back. Yeah those 2 fumbles won against the 49ers were a huge break, but sometimes you need a little luck to get by. And in the SB, that pass to Manningham was the visual definition of clutch qb play in crunch time.

I'm not saying Eli was an elite qb this season, or for most of his career, but last year he definitely was, and just like you, I would take him over any other qb in the league in big games.

I am not taking credit from him just giving him proper credit. You said they rode on his back to the SB title which is 100% inaccurate.

they were average most of the year which is why they were a game above .500, in postseason they sure didn't play like an average team. if they kept playing like that they would have been one and done.

Put '09 or '10 sanchez(postseason) on that team and they win just like 2007, they won primarily w/ defense. Eli made plays just like Mark had in his runs but in title games our D melted and yours stepped up.

Being considered an elite QB is not about 1 season, mark Rypien was elite in 1991 but he wasn' an elite QB. QBs can have excellent years but the ones who sustain year after year after year are the elite ones. I am not bashing Eli, I admire what he has done, I admire his calm in big spots and I have met him numerous times and I really like him but I can't call him an elite QB b/c he is not.

[peace4all]

I am not taking credit from him just giving him proper credit. You said they rode on his back to the SB title which is 100% inaccurate.

they were average most of the year which is why they were a game above .500, in postseason they sure didn't play like an average team. if they kept playing like that they would have been one and done.

Put '09 or '10 sanchez(postseason) on that team and they win just like 2007, they won primarily w/ defense. Eli made plays just like Mark had in his runs but in title games our D melted and yours stepped up.

Being considered an elite QB is not about 1 season, mark Rypien was elite in 1991 but he wasn' an elite QB. QBs can have excellent years but the ones who sustain year after year after year are the elite ones. I am not bashing Eli, I admire what he has done, I admire his calm in big spots and I have met him numerous times and I really like him but I can't call him an elite QB b/c he is not.

I never said being elite for 1 season is enough, I just said he was elite in 2011, and judging by the fact that he is in the prime of his career and still has 6 good years left in him I think he has a solid chance at being considered an elite career qb by the time it's all said and done.

Point is, Eli being elite last year was the main reason that defense got a chance to step it up in the postseason. Even if the D hadn't played that well last year in the playoffs, I firmly believe Eli's play would still have been enough to win against those teams. Even if the Pack had scored their average of 35 points, the fact that Eli led his O to 37 points, including 3 TDs of his own, would still have been enough to win.

9 TDs against 1 pick in the playoffs is enough to put the team on your back, regardless of what the defense does, and 29 TDs in the reg season isn't all that bad either. IMHO, that defense owes Eli big time for giving them a chance to showcase their true talents in the playoffs, because without his 4th quarter comebacks their play last year would have been remembered as a huge letdown.