On Knees For Jesus

[Statler Waldorf]

It's a guide for behavior that shouldn't be repeated.

Then why are they all alleged Christians? You could only find Christians who “do things that shouldn’t be repeated”? I already gave you plenty of examples of atheists you could have used.

Not trying to 'prove' anything, but like Tyler mentioned, it is fascinating to see some of the behavior carried out in the name of the God; whether that be Christian or otherwise. If there were videos about Muslims calling the Earth 6,000 years old or saying gays caused natural disasters I'd damn sure make fun of them as well.

Oh please, the only nations who still treat homosexuality as a capital offense are all Islamic nations; you weren’t trying very hard if you were trying at all to be fair. I was shocked that was really “the worst Christianity has to offer”, it paled in comparison to the worst Islam and Atheism apparently have to offer.

Well, according to the bible, God did kill every person on the planet save Noah & his family. For the stuff that actually happened though, there were the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the mass killing of North & Central American natives by Christian conquistadors & missionaries; to name a few.

All of those add up to a few thousand people, one staunch atheist and Darwinist was able to kill upwards of 60 million people, trust me, you guys win when it comes to killing your fellow humans.

Precisely, a person's religious affiliation, or lack there of, don't inherently reflect one's course of action. I do get the vibe though from some Christians that there's some intrinsic quality about Atheism that makes one more prone to being less 'moral' than one aligned with Christianity, when we know that isn't necessarily the case. I think this is somewhat reflected in society by the very real trouble an atheistic or agnostic politician would have running for a position like the Presidency.

There’s no such thing as a moral person, that’s the whole point and that is what the Bible teaches.

[rob19]

Then why are they all alleged Christians? You could only find Christians who “do things that shouldn’t be repeated”? I already gave you plenty of examples of atheists you could have used.

Because that's what the channel I stumbled upon & shared is choosing to focus on. I forgot how sensitive some of you are though, next time I poke fun at Christians I’ll make sure to look for other religions to make fun of as well for you.

I understand you might consider some of these fellows to be your contemporaries so it might be harder for you to laugh at them, but for everyone else (even other Christians), I'd imagine they'd be able to laugh at these knuckle-heads without taking any personal offense.

Oh please, the only nations who still treat homosexuality as a capital offense are all Islamic nations; you weren’t trying very hard if you were trying at all to be fair. I was shocked that was really “the worst Christianity has to offer”, it paled in comparison to the worst Islam and Atheism apparently have to offer.

It's merely 'some' of the worst Christianity has to offer from a cultural & intellectual standpoint; the more gruesome stuff you won't find on youtube (aside from the countless stories of child molestation).

All of those add up to a few thousand people, one staunch atheist and Darwinist was able to kill upwards of 60 million people, trust me, you guys win when it comes to killing your fellow humans.

This has been gone over before so I'll just quote the latest post concerning this topic by Walrus.

It's a very old, very stupid line of attack on atheism that's been rebutted a million times. Hitler, for example, was raised a Roman Catholic and called Christianity the "unshakeable foundation of the moral and ethical life of our people." About half of the German High Command were confessing Catholics (and none besides Goebbels was excommunicated, and that's only because he married a Protestant!). The Vatican worked directly with the Nazis on stemming the tide of atheism and communism. The Catholics and Catholics bishops were a powerful force in German politics. The deciding vote to make Hitler chancellor was cast by a leader of the Catholic Center party.

It's debatable how much synergy there was beween the Nazis and the Catholic Church (personally I think less than some believe). But Pope Pius XII didn't even condemn Hitler until the war was over, despite being informed of the attacks on Jewish synagogues and businesses during the Kristallnacht and of atrocities in Austria, Lithuiania, Poland and the Ukraine, among others. He never declared it a sin to be a Nazi and refused to join with the Allies in a condemnation of Germany.

The notion that Hitler started a world war and annihilated the Jews because he was an atheist is just flat out ****ing stupid. It's totally ignorant of history. It ignores the rise of anti-Semitism world wide in the early 20th century and it's roots in Christian fundamentalism.

Likewise the purges of Stalin, the Khymer Rouge and the Great Leap Forward were not initiated on behalf of atheism. It is hardly comparable to the continuous religious strife and killing on behalf of religion that can be found right now in Northern Ireland, the Asian Subcontinent, the Middle East and going back to the 19th century to the wars of Protestant Reformation, the Crusades, and on and ****ing on.

[Wildbill3]

Because that's what the channel I stumbled upon & shared is choosing to focus on. I forgot how sensitive some of you are though, next time I poke fun at Christians I’ll make sure to look for other religions to make fun of as well for you.

I understand you might consider some of these fellows to be your contemporaries so it might be harder for you to laugh at them, but for everyone else (even other Christians), I'd imagine they'd be able to laugh at these knuckle-heads without taking any personal offense.



It's merely 'some' of the worst Christianity has to offer from a cultural & intellectual standpoint; the more gruesome stuff you won't find on youtube (aside from the countless stories of child molestation).



This has been gone over before so I'll just quote the latest post concerning this topic by Walrus.

Frankly, I'd tend to agree that the greatest conviction is the conviction of those who believe in something. Those people who believe in something tend to be able to push themselves further for both good or evil, I think it may be a trigger in the brain, that allows one to feel something for the actions that commit either for good or evil. You think you're doing something for the good of mankind, you tend to convince yourself that perhaps indeed the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few. And in that moment, those few become nothing more than stepping stones. save the world from witches? convert the muslim heathens? what's a crusade or two, or three...

[rob19]

That's a good point, I wont discount it.

[Statler Waldorf]

Because that's what the channel I stumbled upon & shared is choosing to focus on. I forgot how sensitive some of you are though, next time I poke fun at Christians I’ll make sure to look for other religions to make fun of as well for you.

I find it a bit amusing you seem to have changed your tune once I pointed out how irrational it is to draw light upon the fringe elements of any group in order to bring the rest of that group down. It’s not a matter of being sensitive; when you’re behaving irrationally I am going to call you out on it every time, don’t be so sensitive about it : - )

I understand you might consider some of these fellows to be your contemporaries so it might be harder for you to laugh at them, but for everyone else (even other Christians), I'd imagine they'd be able to laugh at these knuckle-heads without taking any personal offense.

My aren’t you being disingenuous today? It’s obvious your intent was not to poke fun (unless you think people wanting to kill gays is somehow funny), but rather to ridicule Christianity.

It's merely 'some' of the worst Christianity has to offer from a cultural & intellectual standpoint; the more gruesome stuff you won't find on youtube (aside from the countless stories of child molestation).

Still pales in comparison to what atheism brought us in the 20^th Century, you just can’t win.

This has been gone over before so I'll just quote the latest post concerning this topic by Walrus.

Allowing Walrus to fight your battle for you by merely making assertions doesn’t prove anything, nor does pointing out the misbehavior of the Catholic Church to a Reformed Christian. I never brought Hitler up because we have no idea what he was; we know he was raised Catholic, seemed to at times hate Christians and organized religion, practiced mysticism and the occult which are forbidden in the Christian religion and was a staunch Darwinist. The assertions Walrus made about Stalin are factually incorrect and a bit absurd, we know that his atheism and Darwinism were his primary driving beliefs; they fueled his attack on the Orthodox Church, his indoctrination of Russian students in the education system, and many rather bizarre scientific experiments performed by Soviet scientists. The man will forever be a well-deserved blemish on the face of both atheism and Darwinism. Trying to assert that no atheist kills because of their atheism but all theists kill because of their religion is obviously logically invalid because it’s special pleading.
“Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.""- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

[rob19]

I find it a bit amusing you seem to have changed your tune once I pointed out how irrational it is to draw light upon the fringe elements of any group in order to bring the rest of that group down. It’s not a matter of being sensitive; when you’re behaving irrationally I am going to call you out on it every time, don’t be so sensitive about it : - )

Such denseness. From the beginning I’ve stated several times that these videos represent a small portion of Christians, I don’t know how much more clear I could’ve been. You are the only one who’s taken this as an assault on all of Christianity. Those people deserve to be ridiculed, & it isn't any concern of mine that you got butt-hurt that they were Christian. I get the feeling if these videos were making fun of a few wacky Hindus you wouldn't be pouting; you can dish it but you can't take it.

Still pales in comparison to what atheism brought us in the 20^th Century, you just can’t win.

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Add up the deaths that were attributed to Hitler, Stalin and Pot. Then round up for good measure. You can safely say that the number is staggering. Probably upwards of fifteen million. However, consider the following conflicts where the only differences between the opposing factions were and are religion:

· Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
· Algeria, 1992-
· Baha'is, 1848-54
· Bosnia, 1992-95
· Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
· Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
· Croatia, 1991-92
· English Civil War, 1642-46
· Holocaust, 1938-45
· Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
· India, 1992-2002
· India: Suttee & Thugs
· Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
· Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
· Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
· Jews, 1348
· Jonestown, 1978
· Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
· Molucca Is., 1999-
· Mongolia, 1937-39
· Northern Ireland, 1974-98
· Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22
· St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
· Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
· Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
· Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
· Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
· Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
· Thirty Years War, 1618-48
· Tudor England
· Vietnam, 1800s
· Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
· Xhosa, 1857
· Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
· Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
· Al Qaeda, 1993-
· Crusades, 1095-1291
· Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
· Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

If you add up all of the lives that were lost in the name of one religion or another, you come up with a staggering figure that is in excess of eight-hundred-million. That's eight-hundred-million. An eight, followed by eight zeros. So, even if the believers who are uneducated enough to think that Hitler, Stalin and Pot were psychotic mass murderers because they thought these men were atheists, it is horrifically clear that religious murder wins out.

We've already established Hitler wasn't an atheist so that can be subtracted, & even if you believe his 15 mil figure to be low, it's still incomparable with thousands upon thousands of years of religious strife.


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Also;

3) Complex Cause Fallacy (chalking up the unprecedented size of 20th century death tolls to belief systems alone): While warfare reached unprecedented heights of destructiveness in the 20th century, it is an example of the complex cause fallacy to assume that this was due to belief systems alone, and not other factors. One rather obvious alternative cause is improved technology: humanity’s methods of killing reached new heights in the 20th century, thanks to the development of aerial bombing, nuclear weapons, mechanized logistics, modern artillery, etc. Historical butchers like Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, and Alexander the Great were utterly ruthless, but their death tolls were limited by the technology available to them (not to mention the limited size of populations in their day).

4) Ignoring proportions: following from the previous point, the huge death tolls of 20th century warfare, while shocking and unprecedented in sheer magnitude, are not proportionally unprecedented. You can’t look at numbers without looking at the size of the population they come from: one hundred murders per year in a city with a population of 5 million are proportionally far less than five murders per year in a town with a population of only 20 thousand. In 1940, the population of the USSR was roughly 190 million people. If we were to accept the popular (but most likely exaggerated) estimates of Stalin killing at least 20 million of his own countrymen, that adds up to a bit more than 10% deaths: a horrible figure to be sure, but nowhere close to what Julius Caesar did in his conquest of Gaul, where he was estimated to have exterminated roughly one third of the population of Gaul. Not to mention the fate of the Native Americans, whose population was reduced by more than 95%: a truly incredible death toll the likes of which we rarely see in history, and which was definitely perpetrated by Christians.

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Allowing Walrus to fight your battle for you by merely making assertions doesn’t prove anything, nor does pointing out the misbehavior of the Catholic Church to a Reformed Christian. I never brought Hitler up because we have no idea what he was; we know he was raised Catholic, seemed to at times hate Christians and organized religion, practiced mysticism and the occult which are forbidden in the Christian religion and was a staunch Darwinist. The assertions Walrus made about Stalin are factually incorrect and a bit absurd, we know that his atheism and Darwinism were his primary driving beliefs; they fueled his attack on the Orthodox Church, his indoctrination of Russian students in the education system, and many rather bizarre scientific experiments performed by Soviet scientists. The man will forever be a well-deserved blemish on the face of both atheism and Darwinism. Trying to assert that no atheist kills because of their atheism but all theists kill because of their religion is obviously logically invalid because it’s special pleading.

You’ve made a false equivalence between Christianity & Atheism. Not all theists kill because of religion, but many indeed have (& this is undeniably true). However, no one can kill because of atheism as there’s no cohesive, tethering ideology to attribute it to.

The biggest problem with the Argumentum ad Stalinum is that assumes that atheism has some sort of orthodox perspective on which anti-atheists can pin the blame for those horrible atrocities. It doesn't. It has no dogma, it has no tenets, it has no orthodox perspective that is comparable to what is found in religion. Any sort of "killing in the name of atheism" is actually killing in the name of some ideology that has hijacked the label of atheism.

--

Your also using an association fallacy in regards to Stalin & Atheism.

1) Stalin was an atheist.
2) Stalin had millions of people killed.
3) Therefore, atheism is evil.


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[Statler Waldorf]

Such denseness. From the beginning I’ve stated several times that these videos represent a small portion of Christians, I don’t know how much more clear I could’ve been. You are the only one who’s taken this as an assault on all of Christianity. Those people deserve to be ridiculed, & it isn't any concern of mine that you got butt-hurt that they were Christian. I get the feeling if these videos were making fun of a few wacky Hindus you wouldn't be pouting; you can dish it but you can't take it.

Whether or not you were trying to use the videos to paint Christianity in a bad light or just using them to make an appeal to ridicule is irrelevant because both are irrational. I realize I should have let this thread die a quick death like most of your threads on here do but I grow weary of your constant irrationality in the threads you start.

We've already established Hitler wasn't an atheist so that can be subtracted, & even if you believe his 15 mil figure to be low, it's still incomparable with thousands upon thousands of years of religious strife.

1. We have most certainly not established that Hitler was not an atheist; it’s obvious he was not a naturalist but an atheist can still believe in the supernatural and the occult.
2. Your child-like faith in the accuracy of all of these blogs is nothing short of shocking, the writer of that article (who apparently has horrible grammar) fails to give any sources or even methodology of how he arrives at the 800 million figure (a figure that is obviously greatly inflated considering the Earth’s population as a whole didn’t reach 1 billion people until the 19^th century.)
3. The writer for some reason fails to include some of the most significant atheistic murderers of the 20^th century (i.e. Kim Jong Il, Mao Zedong, and Benito Mussolini).
4. The writer fails to recognize the fact that someone can be a Buddhist and an atheist at the same time.
5. The writer uses the most conservative estimates for deaths caused by the atheistic regimes; more reasonable figures put the number well over 100 million people in the 20^th century alone.
6. The writer lumps all religions together, as a Christian I will never defend other religions against atheism, they are all equally anti-Christian.
7. The writer uses a much longer time period for the “religious killings” than he does for the “atheistic killings”, it’s obvious the atheistic regimes killed at a far greater rate than any other regimes.

Also;

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Another dude’s blog I see, no more sources given I see, so Stalin wasn’t driven by his atheism because Mike says so? Well I guess you win! :-P

Mike doesn’t bother to define atheism correctly by the way, it’s not passive non-belief but rather the positive affirmation that God does not exist, and it does postulate its own form of morality as well.

Mike also screws up the complex cause fallacy, technology doesn’t cause anything, it’s a means. Stalin’s desires and choices directly flow from his belief system, which was atheism, there is your primary cause.

You’ve made a false equivalence between Christianity & Atheism. Not all theists kill because of religion, but many indeed have (& this is undeniably true). However, no one can kill because of atheism as there’s no cohesive, tethering ideology to attribute it to.

How is it undeniably true that theists have killed because of their theism? Where’s your proof for that? Atheism is certainly an ideology and has always been defined as one, you just try to redefine it for your self-serving purposes. Atheism is every bit as much of a belief system as theism is.

Your also using an association fallacy in regards to Stalin & Atheism.

1) Stalin was an atheist.
2) Stalin had millions of people killed.
3) Therefore, atheism is evil.

Atheism is evil, but that’s not the reason I know it is, it’d still be evil even if Stalin was never born.

A better syllogism would be

P1. A person’s belief system drives their choices in life
P2. Stalin’s belief system was atheism
C. Therefore atheism drove Stalin’s choices in life

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Rationalwiki? If I used half of the user-generated sites and blogs you use in order to try and prove your points you’d surely poop your drawers, it’s absurd.

[Bumpus]

What on earth are you even talking about?

Anyways, I realize you really don’t care about getting your facts correct, but I’ll correct you because I do care, Christianity is the world’s largest Religion, not Islam.

Don't look now, but Bumpus-ism is quickly gaining ground on both.
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