North Korea releases video showing US city under attack prior to nuclear tests.

[SkapePhin]

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What is their thinking with all this? What do they gain by swatting at the hornet's nest?

[MoFinz]

Stupid bastards......just little yip dogs barking, with no ass at all to back it up

[Locke]

They have China's support, so they are trying to gain credibility. At some point they are going to cross the line, and China won't be willing to provide the support necessary for North Korea to defend itself. Many pants will be soiled in North Korea when that day comes...

[TheWalrus]

They have China's support, so they are trying to gain credibility. At some point they are going to cross the line, and China won't be willing to provide the support necessary for North Korea to defend itself. Many pants will be soiled in North Korea when that day comes...

I doubt we'll see that day very soon. China is terrified of having North Korean refugees streaming over the border if the North Korean state were to collapse. And I don't blame them, because the North Koreans as a people are diseased, racist and totally ignorant of, well... everything. As a result, North Korea continually humiliates the Chinese and the Chinese just have to take it. Like, when the Chinese send in trains full of food and medical supplies, the Koreans don't just take the food, they also keep the trains. And they're basically free to be as belligerent on the world stage as they please, because the Chinese will stop any major UN effort to destabilize the government.

[NY8123]

I doubt we'll see that day very soon. China is terrified of having North Korean refugees streaming over the border if the North Korean state were to collapse. And I don't blame them, because the North Koreans as a people are diseased, racist and totally ignorant of, well... everything. As a result, North Korea continually humiliates the Chinese and the Chinese just have to take it. Like, when the Chinese send in trains full of food and medical supplies, the Koreans don't just take the food, they also keep the trains. And they're basically free to be as belligerent as they please, because the Chinese will stop any major UN effort to destabilize the government.

Well China could alwasy go the opium war route. Clean up your act or off with your head.

[TheWalrus]

Well China could alwasy go the opium war route. Clean up your act or off with your head.

And then North Korea just says "no" and the Chinese do what? Anything punitive the Chinese do that weakens the North Korean state just ends up hurting the Chinese because their fear of refugees is so great.

If and when the North Korean state collapses, it will be in spite of China's efforts to keep it alive, not because of anything they do. Sanctions against North Korea are actually one of our big bargaining chips in any major negotiation we have with the Chinese for that reason.

[Locke]

I doubt we'll see that day very soon. China is terrified of having North Korean refugees streaming over the border if the North Korean state were to collapse. And I don't blame them, because the North Koreans as a people are diseased, racist and totally ignorant of, well... everything. As a result, North Korea continually humiliates the Chinese and the Chinese just have to take it. Like, when the Chinese send in trains full of food and medical supplies, the Koreans don't just take the food, they also keep the trains. And they're basically free to be as belligerent on the world stage as they please, because the Chinese will stop any major UN effort to destabilize the government.

You have to wonder where that line is for China. They are as dependent on us as we are on them, so if push came to shave, would they really go to war with us over North Korea? If I was China, I'd weight the costs of the North Korean refugees vs the cost of war with the U.S. Perhaps the best course of action is to set up a barricade of some sort between North Korea and China and force them to go elsewhere. North Korea behaving this way is going to force China's hand at some point, though...

[TheWalrus]

You have to wonder where that line is for China. They are as dependent on us as we are on them, so if push came to shave, would they really go to war with us over North Korea? If I was China, I'd weight the costs of the North Korean refugees vs the cost of war with the U.S. Perhaps the best course of action is to set up a barricade of some sort between North Korea and China and force them to go elsewhere. North Korea behaving this way is going to force China's hand at some point, though...

But why would we be willing to go to war with China over North Korea, though? We wouldn't.

North Korea just likes being inflammatory because unpredictability is the only card they can play on the international stage. That, and they've pretty much made China their bitch. Every once in a while they walk up to the line and piss over it because they can. They're pretty much just trolling the whole world, is all.

If anything were to actually happen in that area it'd be because of Japan, not us. The Japanese and Chinese hate each other going back forever and the North Koreans also hate the Japanese. We're pledged to protect Japan because we wrote their constitution after WWII (as in literally like two guys in Washington DC wrote it) which mandates that they only have a scant national defense apparatus -- in exchange for our solemn protection. The aggressive moves of North Korea as well as ever present tension with a stronger and stronger China have threatened that arrangement and now the Japanese they make noises now more than they used to about arming themselves. That could potentially be destabilizing. But basically it just sounds to me like a bunch of rustled jimmies, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing (that was for you, tyler
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).

At the end of the day, though, I don't think anything will happen. The Chinese fundamentally don't consider themselves an international power or to have international concerns. They don't care about genocides or oppression or terrorism or about flexing their muscle internationally to further their economic goals (outside of bullying a few African countries that can produce cobalt and other rare Earth metals you need to make electronics).

The Chinese pretty much only care about two things. 1) Maintaining their grip on their own country (ie, putting down unrest domestically as well as opposing rebellion movements abroad that might inspire their own dissidents). And 2) Telling other nations to STFU about Tibet. Both are non-negotiable. As China grows in power and prestige their priorities might start to expand somewhat (in fact, it almost certainly will), but it's still not part of their philosophy as a nation. It's hard to fathom now but China was pretty much closed to the world until the 1970s. That's still not long ago.

In Fareed Zakaria's book The Post American World (I think it was his book, anyway) he traces this back to the differences in religion between the East and West. The West, being largely Christian, sees their role in missionary terms. It's our duty to help people in other countries and to involve ourselves and spread our way of life.

Eastern religions aren't like that. They're more insular and philosophical. There's a great example of this from Chinese history where in the early 15th century they constructed an ocean going fleet larger than all the fleets of Europe combined and explored the South China Sea, India and the east coast of Africa, some 40,000 miles in all. But after the leader of the expedition died the fleet was recalled and burned to the ground. Obviously the Japanese didn't follow this example in WWII, but China still has not made it their business to be much of a leader or aggressor on the world stage in their entire history.

[NY8123]

But why would we be willing to go to war with China over North Korea, though? We wouldn't.

North Korea just likes being inflammatory because unpredictability is the only card they can play on the international stage. That, and they've pretty much made China their bitch. Every once in a while they walk up to the line and piss over it because they can. They're pretty much just trolling the whole world, is all.

If anything were to actually happen in that area it'd be because of Japan, not us. The Japanese and Chinese hate each other going back forever and the North Koreans also hate the Japanese. We're pledged to protect Japan because we wrote their constitution after WWII (as in literally like two guys in Washington DC wrote it) which mandates that they only have a scant national defense apparatus -- in exchange for our solemn protection. The aggressive moves of North Korea as well as ever present tension with a stronger and stronger China have threatened that arrangement and now the Japanese they make noises now more than they used to about arming themselves. That could potentially be destabilizing. But basically it just sounds to me like a bunch of rustled jimmies, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing (that was for you, tyler
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
).

At the end of the day, though, I don't think anything will happen. The Chinese fundamentally don't consider themselves an international power or to have international concerns. They don't care about genocides or oppression or terrorism or about flexing their muscle internationally to further their economic goals (outside of bullying a few African countries that can produce cobalt and other rare Earth metals you need to make electronics).

The Chinese pretty much only care about two things. 1) Maintaining their grip on their own country (ie, putting down unrest domestically as well as opposing rebellion movements abroad that might inspire their own dissidents). And 2) Telling other nations to STFU about Tibet. Both are non-negotiable. As China grows in power and prestige their priorities might start to expand somewhat (in fact, it almost certainly will), but it's still not part of their philosophy as a nation. It's hard to fathom now but China was pretty much closed to the world until the 1970s. That's still not long ago.

In Fareed Zakaria's book The Post American World (I think it was his book, anyway) he traces this back to the differences in religion between the East and West. The West, being largely Christian, sees their role in missionary terms. It's our duty to help people in other countries and to involve ourselves and spread our way of life.

Eastern religions aren't like that. They're more insular and philosophical. There's a great example of this from Chinese history where in the early 15th century they constructed an ocean going fleet larger than all the fleets of Europe combined and explored the South China Sea, India and the east coast of Africa, some 40,000 miles in all. But after the leader of the expedition died the fleet was recalled and burned to the ground. Obviously the Japanese didn't follow this example in WWII, but China still has not made it their business to be much of a leader or aggressor on the world stage in their entire history.

I'm not so sure about this Wal, right now there is no imminent danger of the US going to war with China, the arrangement for corporate expansion is going well for the US, plus China holds more US debt than any other country in the world, when the US decides to default on that debt it is going to set off a global pandemic. With China being the main loser at that point there is 68 cents on every dollar of debt for China and other nations to go to war with the US.

As long as everyone is making money it is fine but at some point that is going to stop and the Chinese are going to call in their margin, when they do the US will have no other choice but to default and a war has a high probability to ensue at that point in time.

[MoFinz]

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