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Thread: creationism in our schools

  1. -21
    The_Dark_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamian
    First of all, you offer no explanation of why the 5th and 14th Amendments are not applicable.

    I'm out of my field here, so if we have any true experts in astronomy/ astrometrics I invite your correction. But from what I've read there is evidence for big bang in that astronomic research suggests that the universe continues to expand. Therefore data has been collected and a theory formed to explain the data.
    there's only a theory that the universe is expanding, but no hard facts or evidence. the theory that the universe is still expanding is based on rotation of solar systems, galaxies relative to orbits...there is no universal maintainer (for a lack of better words) of galactic orbits, hence the theory that the universe it still expanding
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  2. -22
    Miamian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_USA_DS
    there's only a theory that the universe is expanding, but no hard facts or evidence. the theory that the universe is still expanding is based on rotation of solar systems, galaxies relative to orbits...there is no universal maintainer (for a lack of better words) of galactic orbits, hence the theory that the universe it still expanding
    That's still data collection, which is what religion cannot offer.

    What I meant by the 5th and 14th is that you have teach all cosmologies, not just Judeo-Christian cosmology. That means, e.g., that you have to teach the Tibetan belief that the world is strapped to the back of a giant tortoise.
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  3. -23
    The_Dark_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamian
    That's still data collection, which is what religion cannot offer.

    What I meant by the 5th and 14th is that you have teach all cosmologies, not just Judeo-Christian cosmology. That means, e.g., that you have to teach the Tibetan belief that the world is strapped to the back of a giant tortoise.
    Right, if you read through ALL of my posts on this topic, you will never once read anything that reads GOD created the universe.

    And collected data that can't be concluded is just that...data. It may indicate that an event is occuring, but it not necessarily the origin of the event nor it's endstate.
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    Miamian's Avatar
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    I understand what you're saying, but the fundamental difference here is that science must allow for disproof. In regards to your assertion that the Big Bang cannot be disproven, I disagree. It may not be disprovable yet, because technology and resources have not yet advanced to be able to prove/disprove. However, philosophically it subsumes that possibility.

    Creationism does not allow for disproof and philosophically it subsumes faith; therefore, it cannot be classified as a science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_USA_DS
    Your argument using the 5th and 14th amendments hold no water in my opinion.

    The argument on the 1st however does. But here's the question...is presenting the thought for ponderous in a science class when it comes to the creation of the universe, that it is possible that a "Supreme Being", be it God, Allah, Muhammad, Buddah or little green aliens from Vulcan, could have created the universe a violation of the 1st amendment?

    As long as you present all possible theories, personally I say no. There is no establisment of a "religion", only an idea that can neither be proven or disproven...just as the big bang theory...it can neither be proven or disproven.

    When you endorse teaching a theory, you must present all possibilities. Not doing so is irresponsible and arrogant, that one theory, which happens to be politically correct, is the only possible theory.
    I'm sorry, but I just can't let that slide and absolutely must correct you here. Vucans only have green blood.


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  6. -26
    The_Dark_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansMojo
    I'm sorry, but I just can't let that slide and absolutely must correct you here. Vucans only have green blood.
    Green blood, green skin, who cares...back me up brother!!!!!
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  7. -27
    Miamian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_USA_DS
    Green blood, green skin, who cares...back me up brother!!!!!
    You see what I mean? Now that's discrimination against the Orions.
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  8. -28
    The_Dark_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamian
    You see what I mean? Now that's discrimination against the Orions.
    All are welcome in the Jedi Temple...even those whose minds are clouded by the Dark Side of the Force
    :jedi:
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  9. -29
    HansMojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamian
    First of all, you offer no explanation of why the 5th and 14th Amendments are not applicable.

    I'm out of my field here, so if we have any true experts in astronomy/ astrometrics I invite your correction. But from what I've read there is evidence for big bang in that astronomic research suggests that the universe continues to expand. Therefore data has been collected and a theory formed to explain the data.
    This isn't really directed at you Miamian, but as a general statement. The hypothesis that the "Big Bang" was the beginning of both space and time and originated when a golf ball sized clump of infinitely compressed matter that was infinitely hot (that came out of nowhere???...where did the matter come from?) began expanding and coalesced into all the heavens is SPECULATIVE at best. It is no different than what Christians do when they say "look, their are suns and moons and planets and people and a complex life support system, and it must have all come from somewhere so there must have been a supreme being to set it all in motion." So they go about studying the planets, the moons, and the suns, and the complexity of the life support system and then call their findings proof of a Creator. It's not actually proof of a Creator. The big bang is the same exact thing. There is no proof that it is what kickstarted the Universe other than the fact that we are here now and had to come from somewhere and look at all the pretty stars and planets spinning around. Ok, it's more complicated that that, but it is no different than what creationists do. It's a hypothesis that started when Hubble observered that the Universe appeared to be expanding and since then more and more hypothesis and theory have been piled on in an attempt to explain this expansion, the origin of the universe, and the beginning of time and space from a naturalistic perspective. But all the top guys will admit that they really don't know and will never know how much validity there is to it since it is impossible to test the original event. No matter how much we learn about the Universe...what it is made up of, how it is moving, what we can observe today...we will not know how it began, where the matter came from, how it was infinitely compressed, etc since none of us where around at the time to observe it. It's a great hypothesis. Good stuff. I don't put my faith in it and neither should anyone that claims to only go on the data and the facts. The Big bang itself is not observable, testable, or repeatable (and to repeat it would be the end of the Universe and life as we know it - according the top proponents of the hypothesis anyway).

    Operational science has a place in public schools including the study of evolution (IMHO) and is very different than origin "science". Origin science has no place in a public school science class for the very reason that people go away believing there is no difference between the two and because it has been presented as fact in a completely dogmatic manner. The problem is that it's all sold as a package and this is irresponsible and simply wrong. Origin science is the faith based materialistic religious aspect of evolution that informed creationists do not like and is the reason some of them are pushing for ID or other creationist philosophies to be taught in public school science classes along side the religious aspects of evolution. I hope it never happens...but that's because I know I wouldn't want an atheist being forced to teach my kids about God. Keep that in the churches and in the private schools.
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  10. -30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamian
    You see what I mean? Now that's discrimination against the Orions.
    Orion women....:drool:
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