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Thread: Scientific Evidence for Survival Of consciousness after death

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    MDFINFAN's Avatar
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    Scientific Evidence for Survival Of consciousness after death

    Interesting piece of evidence, in so as much as it seems to support the life after earthly death theories we christians seem to bring to the table...

    http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
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    ckb2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN View Post
    Interesting piece of evidence, in so as much as it seems to support the life after earthly death theories we christians seem to bring to the table...

    http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
    There's no scientific evidence for the existence of consciousness after death - the title of this thread is certainly misleading I must say. The "evidence" you refer to is purely circumstantial and is NOT something one could call "scientific evidence". Your own link even says that:

    QUOTE:
    "It is evidence such as this, if scientifically controlled, that can provide absolute scientific proof that consciousness can exist outside of the body. A scientifically controlled NDE that can be repeated which provides such evidence would be the scientific discovery of all time. However, science does not yet have the exact tools to accomplish this. But, science is coming very, very close. This kind of evidence and others provide very strong circumstantial evidence for the survival of consciousness."
    ----------------

    If you want truly scientific evidence of what we think is necessary for consciousness to exist, well you have a ton of literature demonstrating the extremely strong link between sensations and their neural correlates.

    People lose consciousness of very specific things if specific areas of their brain are lesioned or in some way damaged. So, the only kind of scientific evidence regarding what is necessary for one to be conscious rests in the huge amount of evidence tying the existence of consciousness to actual physical neural functions.

    Oh, and despite the optimism in the quote above about how science is close to doing controlled experiments on near-death experiences, I fear (for your point of view) the only kind of such controlled experiments on the horizon deal with brain stimulation of specific areas that produce certain out-of-body experiences. That stuff IS scientific, but completely supports the claim that you actually need a functioning brain before you have any sensations.


    Anyway, looking only at the circumstantial "evidence" you're referring to, keep in mind what the critiques of such claims will be by other scientists. First of all, since it's not a controlled experiment, it's in no way clear what influence the experimenter himself had on the results, specifically the "verification" of claims made by the person with the near-death experiences. I mean this starts from the interpretation of the NDE and how precise the terminology in use is to how the verification took place. I mean who knows whether the researcher actually suggested the "answer" to the person he wanted verification from? That's a common error among many who study things like paranormal phenomena - they never controlled for variables they must control for if they want their results to have credibility among the scientific community at large.

    And second, there's no analysis of how probable or improbable the claims are. It's no different than someone saying that psychic could have only done what he did if he really had the powers he claimed. One has to first calculate the probability of whatever was claimed being true (and at least till today, none have shown they can beat that probability with consistency, so over many trials) as well as how precise the claim was (saying the number 5 will be important next week says what? What event can we define as "important" prior to the experiment?).

    So, in summary, this is at best circumstantial stuff and not only is there no scientific evidence for consciousness existing outside the body, all scientific evidence (and there's a LOT of that) shows all sensations we know of are correlated with neural function. You lose that function, you lose that sensation (or in general consciousness), at least as far as we know.
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    MDFINFAN's Avatar
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    I only took the title of the article and put it as the title of this thread..so the title is what it is..now I do think scientists are close to understanding that consciousness, as I deem it, self awareness is there once the human body has cease to function...eventually you'll see that God is right, we only leave the body, but we, the spirit continues to live. It seems slowly, but surely man is discovering things every year that supports what's written in the bible, CKB, we may not be around when man's ability to do this is fully capable, but I do think man is seeing that what's been written is really reality. This article shows the bases for this..and I find it interesting. Again, what science doesn't believe today, becomes reality tomorrow. Just like the world was flat, then discovered to be round later.. it's unfortunate, that faith is so sothe, when each generation is getting worst as said by the bible.. one day I'll write a threat on what the bible predicted, and what's come to past..
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN View Post
    I only took the title of the article and put it as the title of this threat..so the title is what it is..now I do think scientists are close to understanding that consciousness, as I deem it, self awareness is there once the human body has cease to function...eventually you'll see that God is right, we only leave the body, but we, the spirit continues to live. It seems slowly, but surely man is discovering things every year that supports what's written in the bible, CKB, we may not be around when man's ability to do this is fully capable, but I do think man is seeing that what's been written is really reality. This article shows the bases for this..and I find it interesting. Again, what science doesn't believe today, becomes reality tomorrow. Just like the world was flat, then discovered to be round later.. it's unfortunate, that faith is so sothe, when each generation is getting worst as said by the bible.. one day I'll write a threat on what the bible predicted, and what's come to past..
    Well, you can have your faith, but keep in mind that the amount of evidence supporting the contention that every thought, emotion, sensation, etc.. requires neural activity is so enormous it's not questioned by brain science today (meaning there's no scientific evidence consciousness can exist without such neural activity). And also keep in mind science is nowhere near being able to study consciousness directly. In fact, we hardly have a clue how to begin except through the neural correlates.

    Now, you're right what is considered most likely to be true changes as new evidence is presented, but that doesn't mean it's the view you're espousing that will ultimately triumph. First of all, there are an infinite number of different ideas that could triumph in the future. And second of all, the history of science shows more evidence takes us further AWAY from religious beliefs (in science), not closer to it.

    There are many aspects of secular society that have helped wean away the influence religion had in daily life, but science is definitely one of the strongest such drivers for a more secular society. Simply put, we're better at problem-solving, and whenever a practical solution is needed AND science can be brought to bear on it, it's almost always the preferred methodology chosen.

    So, faith is nice (though I don't need it in this case - I'll accept any idea that predicts the data best, so I don't have an intrinsic attachment to one idea), but the overall trend in science is towards removing religious and philosophical concepts that don't fit the data and replacing them with theories that do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckb2001 View Post
    Well, you can have your faith, but keep in mind that the amount of evidence supporting the contention that every thought, emotion, sensation, etc.. requires neural activity is so enormous it's not questioned by brain science today (meaning there's no scientific evidence consciousness can exist without such neural activity). And also keep in mind science is nowhere near being able to study consciousness directly. In fact, we hardly have a clue hot to begin except through the neural correlates.

    Now, you're right what is considered most likely to be true changes as new evidence is presented, but that doesn't mean it's the view you're espousing that will ultimately triumph. First of all, there are an infinite number of different ideas that could triumph in the future. And second of all, the history of science shows more evidence takes us further AWAY from religious beliefs (in science), not closer to it.

    There are many aspects of secular society that have helped wean away the influence religion had in daily life, but science is definitely one of the strongest such drivers for a more secular society. Simply put, we're better at problem-solving, and whenever a practical solution is needed AND science can be brought to bear on it, it's almost always the preferred methodology chosen.

    So, faith is nice (though I don't need it in this case - I'll accept any idea that predicts the data best, so I don't have an intrinsic attachment to one idea), but the overall trend in science is towards removing religious and philosophical concepts that don't fit the data and replacing them with theories that do.
    That's the man in science, remember he loves taken credit for what God already put on earth. Man just discovers it exist, but it was already there. No matter how man spins it, science only learn what's already exist..and he learns to take the resources God's provided and put them together, but never does man really create anything out of air..
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN View Post
    That's the man in science, remember he loves taken credit for what God already put on earth. Man just discovers it exist, but it was already there. No matter how man spins it, science only learn what's already exist..and he learns to take the resources God's provided and put them together, but never does man really create anything out of air..

    This is what we call...presupposing what your trying to conclude...circular reasoning....it is not logically valid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saves View Post
    This is what we call...presupposing what your trying to conclude...circular reasoning....it is not logically valid.
    Of course not, if we apply man's reasoning..I'm use to that...but then again, maybe it is logically based on man's logic, sense some of us can follow the logic..
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN View Post
    Of course not, if we apply man's reasoning..I'm use to that...but then again, maybe it is logically based on man's logic, sense some of us can follow the logic..


    :bong:

    I'm not sure how to respond to that haha...but I will say this...logic existed long before Christianity, and by applying logic it appears that it will last long after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saves View Post
    :bong:

    I'm not sure how to respond to that haha...but I will say this...logic existed long before Christianity, and by applying logic it appears that it will last long after.
    Not a bad response, but to my way of thinking, before christianity, man got himself swiped out, so as a jesture Jesus has given us a 2nd chance..so I'll go with that logic, but will respect your logic..and we'll all live happily afterafterwards...
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    Question for the faith based side:
    How does this ?article? scientifically prove that God is right, and at the same time document proof of reincarnation? Aren't those two theories opposed to each other?
    AND THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS:
    CHEATERS NEVER WIN!!!

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