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Thread: zeitgeist

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    Thundercracker's Avatar
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    zeitgeist

    Interesting movie about religion. among other things.

    not going to link it because there is some footage that isn't for the faint of heart. just google zeitgeist and it'll pop up
    Why don't you go outside and play 'hide and go fudge yourself'
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    tucker's Avatar
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    just saw this movie...very interesting to say the least...i'd like to hear what some of the more religious folks have to say about this movie

    http://zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm
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    Dolphan7's Avatar
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    I couldn't get through more than about 35 minutes before closing is down. It seems to be a very well thought out and clever attack against Christianity, yet has so many falsehoods that it can't be taken seriously.

    But people need to beleive in something, and some will watch this and be convinced that the makers of this documentary are absolutely correct and no further vetting is required or necessary. Far from the truth. Just think of What's his name.....Mike Moore.... and how he takes a postition on something and then bends his documentary to fit the idea. Not entirely truthful, and full of errors. That is all this is.

    I will list just three that I noticed in just 35 minutes.
    1. That the Egyptian God Horus and many other ancient religions and cultures predated Christianity, yet fail to mention that the Jewish God predates even those, and if there was any borrowing of lieterature, it was from the Jews, not by the Jews. Anyone who knows anything about Jewish Religious Culture knows that it would be considered blasphemus to borrow anything pagan, let alone base their whole religion and culture on it.

    2. The claim that Christianity is a product of Gnosticism. All known Gnostic writings are from mid to late second century and later. Hardly a foundation for a religion to borrow from something that hadn't even been discovered yet.

    3. The Council of Nicea where it is supposed to have "voted in the books of the bible". Hardly. The conversion of Constantine to Christianity ushered in the church all right, but not the christian church, but the Catholic church. Fact is the OT had already been completed 700 years prior, and the NT books and letters had been widely circulated for 300 years already in their present form. In other words, The Bible had already been complete by the time of Constantine.

    I know we have discussed this film in another thread but I can't seem to find it, maybe it is under another title, but the three main themes of the film are really familiar to me.

    But for me to find error within the first 30 minutes leads me to believe that this film is just more conspiracy theory , although nicely done. For presentation I give them an A, for content and accuracy I give them an F.
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    Dolphan7's Avatar
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    If anyone is interested in a discussion about the accusation that Christianity is just plagiarism, here is the thread.

    http://www.finheaven.com/f116...om-222548.html
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    tucker's Avatar
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    thanks...the part that really interested me was the federal reserve bank...but i was hoping you would comment on this...

    hopefully pagan will see this
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    D7, do you have any references for the seniority of Judaism compared to polytheistic religions of Anitquity?
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    Dolphan7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ih8brady View Post
    D7, do you have any references for the seniority of Judaism compared to polytheistic religions of Anitquity?
    The bible? No other work of antiquity has such depth and detail about God and the creation of the universe and the world. It is second to none as an authorative account of our beginnings.

    And there is this....

    Here is a blog from Walter Martin, a very good author on christian cults and the occult and other religions of the world. In this link he cites several other sources to prove the point.

    http://www.waltermartin.com/2007/07/...rs-in-day.html

    When you really look at the "so called similarities", they're not really that similar, often rather vague. The Hitler comparison was interesting though.

    And then you have to take into consideration the Jewish people, who have never ben open to adopting pagan religious beliefs, in fact they despise other religious influences. To suggest they borrowed, and borrowed freely and frequently goes against everything we know about Jewish culture, and defies common sense.

    Also there is the fact that thousands of people died for Jesus in the first and second centuries, including 11 of his 12 Apostles, violent deaths.....people don't die for something that they know to be false, and borrowed from some other culture/religion.

    And it doesn't mean that polytheism and monotheism are mutually exclusive when it comes to which one came first. They could both have independent origins simultaneous of each other. And from a biblical standpoint, that makes more sense. From the Tower Of Babel all the nations were separated by language. Each group retained it's memory of it's origins and religion. That is why we see so many cultures that have a flood account in their folklore. It is because they were all there at the time speaking the same language. From there they spread out and congregated by language into the regions of the world, taking with them some semblance of an all mighty God, and after a period of time you would expect some groups to adopt different traits of that same story, adding more gods, changing some of the character of god etc.....with a language barrier they couldn't go to their now separated brethren and ask "Hey remember how that god thing went?" They had to rely on memory and over time it got distorted.

    Meanwhile the Jews found favor in God's eyes and were selected to bring the Messiah into the world, and so he was in close relationship with them through out this time, which is why we have such a detailed account as written in the bible. No other culture or religion has such an extensive, in depth, coherent, well written, work of antiquity that speaks to hundreds of issues, yet in harmony, throughout the ages. This is why I list the bible as a source, because one shouldn't just throw it out the window simply because one doesn't believe it.

    I find it interesting that people are so willing to believe in other works of antiquity, and believe it lock stock and barrel, with little to no evidence that it is in fact true and yet throw out such a great work as the bible which is loaded with truths.
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    The Bible isn't a historical book. It's a document of its time, no different or historical than the Book of the Dead or Works and Days or the Epic of Gilgamesh (if you want to talk about similarities...) These are not works of history. They would fail any reasonable standards historians as they are works of faith, not scholarly research or factually-based entries.

    So, back to the original question. What evidence is there that Judaism is the oldest religion, or that it predate Egyptian religion, which is a very well documented civilization. Do you have any dates?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ih8brady View Post
    The Bible isn't a historical book. It's a document of its time, no different or historical than the Book of the Dead or Works and Days or the Epic of Gilgamesh (if you want to talk about similarities...) These are not works of history. They would fail any reasonable standards historians as they are works of faith, not scholarly research or factually-based entries.

    So, back to the original question. What evidence is there that Judaism is the oldest religion, or that it predate Egyptian religion, which is a very well documented civilization. Do you have any dates?
    The bible is a historical book. Not only part of history, but a very good account of the history of the Jewish people, the OT, and the life and times of Jesus Christ himself, the NT. Whether you believe it is or not doesn't take anything away from the fact that it is a historical record of events.

    Did you have time to read up on William Petrie or Bruce Metzger?

    Keep in mind I also suggest a dualistic time line, although it is my personal belief that according to the Genesis account, all Judaism and Christianity began at the very beginning of time (on earth). I can't, and no one can really, give you, or anyone else, an exact date for the Genesis account. All we can deduce is that they were there in the beginning, the only people on the earth at the time, and so all other pagan religions came later.

    The OT was written from 2000 BC to 400 BC. It predates practically everything, considering that the oral records of the OT are even much older. Egyptian writing could have been the product of what is called Trans-cultural diffusion, basically the spread of ideas, languages, technologies and yes religion from one culture to the next. We know that Egypt traded with Mesopotamia, those trade routes went right through what is today known as Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria. Jewish OT begs of what is called Heliocentric Diffusionism Theory which states that all cultures originated from one culture. The bible speaks about this clealy in Genesis account of the Tower of Babel. All peoples at that time were of one culture, one language, and then God confused them, gave them different languages and caused them to disperse across the world. Many of the Oral doctrines of the Jewish OT would have been known to these new cultures having once been of one culture and one language. Keep in mind that these cultures in this area of the world shared many beliefs and practices being agrarian societies as I mentioned earlier. So it isn't any surprise to find many similarities among ancient cultures.
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    emeraldfin's Avatar
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    1. That the Egyptian God Horus and many other ancient religions and cultures predated Christianity, yet fail to mention that the Jewish God predates even those, and if there was any borrowing of lieterature, it was from the Jews, not by the Jews. Anyone who knows anything about Jewish Religious Culture knows that it would be considered blasphemus to borrow anything pagan, let alone base their whole religion and culture on it.
    Now strike me if I am wrong D7, but from what I have read Zorastrianism is supposedlyy the oldest Monotheisitc religion that exists, as it is claimed to have been founded around 6000 BCE. If this was the case did Zoroastrianism influence Judasim?
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