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Thread: For the Bible Tells Me So

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    DolfinDave's Avatar
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    For the Bible Tells Me So

    http://www.pajiba.com/for-the-bible-tells-me-so.htm

    Found this interesting review on the documentary, "For the Bible Tells Me So." The author injects his own personal experience into the review and adds a great scene from The West Wing.

    I thought the paradox he points out at the end was a really interesting question which I hadn't heard phrased that way before.

    What do you guys think?


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    Dol-Fan Dupree's Avatar
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    I am interested in seeing the movie. Of course I also am interested in anything that shows that man screws up the word of god for their own self interests.
    “If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.”
    by Dave Berry
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    DolfinDave's Avatar
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    That's the part I liked about it. Its not the core message of Christianity that is the problem. Sure the OT can be problematic. But its the church's responsibility to teach people that its not meant literally. And the main focus is supposed to be on the NT and what Jesus taught us.

    And I think the whole man messing up God's word is the reason we have the 1st Amendment and a secular gov't. Its not a dismisal of the Christian or any religion's message. Its the fear of the men in charge of those entities that are supposed to teach the message *******izing it for their own personal interest.
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    Mike13's Avatar
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    It seems intesting thats for sure.
    Once Dmac is drafted a Dmac Jersey will spontaneously materialize in the closet of each and every Dolfan...

    ...and not that replica crap either...
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    Da 'Fins's Avatar
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    Before we can really talk about any Biblical statements as normative for one's life, one has to come to believe the evidence given for the resurrection of Jesus; and therefore the veracity of his claims and his disciples claims that he is truly the Son of God, the savior of the world. That said...

    It's not the OT that is the problem - the use of those passages in Leviticus is misguided on both ends of the spectrum. For the most part, neither believers nor non-believers give the proper focus, imo. But, let me just list a few NT passages on the subject:

    Rom. 1:26-27: 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

    1Cor. 6:9-11: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    1Tim. 1:8   But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

    The Greek word for homosexual in these passages is arsenokoitas - referring to sexual contact between males. In some instances it has ritual connotations but not all; it also is used in a broader general sense. There are two words in 1 Cor. 6:10 that relate to homosexuality: effeminate (Gr. malakos - which really refers to the "passive partner in homosexual activity" - see Louw & Nida, Greek-English Lexicon in Semantic Domain); and homosexuality (arsenokoitas - which "in certain contexts refers to the active partner" - again, Louw & Nida Lexicon).

    Sometimes it is argued that Jesus never condemned homosexuality. But, Jesus did indicate that the Holy Spirit would guide his disciples into all the truth and no one disputes Paul's writing by inspiration. Further, is Jesus' statement in Matt. 19:9 that fornication is the only reason for divorce; and his view that fornication is a sin clearly argues against homosexuality, since fornication (Gr: porneia) was a broad term in Scripture for sexual activity outside a marriage relationship between a man and a woman - the marriage relationship between a man and a woman is the only place the Bible ever positively justifies sexual intimacy; it is consistent from OT to NT (e.g., Heb. 13:4 - "the marriage bed is undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge").

    Now, having noted that, it is equally the case that the NT does not in any way condone violent aggression against anyone on the basis of sexual orientation. Jesus loved sinners as all his disciples should. In fact, we all are sinners, according to the NT! However, that doesn't mean that Jesus or his disciples justified sinful practices. There is a difference between loving someone and justifying their lifestyle. I would love my son even if he robbed a bank; it would not mean I justified his action or viewed such actions as appropriate simply because I loved him.

    The problem is, that there is violence perpetrated on others in the name of the Bible - so it gives Christianity a bad name. Such actions find no NT justification. But, of course, the homosexual movement is also itself a "power-play" - a metanarrative that seeks power - and homosexual men have acted violently at times - in the name of their cause; in the same way, there are distorted views of Christianity (like the Religious Right) that seek for oppressive political and economic power.

    NT Christianity does not condone immoral activity - and that includes homosexuality as well as violence against homosexuals. It never calls on disciples to become oppressive in their cause; it seeks to win people to a new lifestyle through persuasion - and it's argument is via humility: God, through Jesus, giving his life on the cross, that we would turn away from a sinful lifestyle (though still ourselves not being sinless) and find grace in the cross. God's grace saves us from our sin (Eph. 2:8) but that does not justify continuing in it, from a Biblical perspective - "What shall we say, shall we continue in sin that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1-2).
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    Da 'Fins's Avatar
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    Btw, a book I would highly recommend for a balanced and very fairminded view of this subject and numerous other issues - from a scholarly perspective - is Richard Hays' Moral Vision of the New Testament.

    Hays is a professor of NT Ethics at Duke University.
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    HansMojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da 'Fins View Post

    NT Christianity does not condone immoral activity - and that includes homosexuality as well as violence against homosexuals. It never calls on disciples to become oppressive in their cause; it seeks to win people to a new lifestyle through persuasion - and it's argument is via humility: God, through Jesus, giving his life on the cross, that we would turn away from a sinful lifestyle (though still ourselves not being sinless) and find grace in the cross. God's grace saves us from our sin (Eph. 2:8) but that does not justify continuing in it, from a Biblical perspective - "What shall we say, shall we continue in sin that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1-2).


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    Before I even declare being a christian or not, I want to point out a few things. While I can not quote scriptures without looking into the book, I feel that I understand and live by that book... Be it the OT or NT, I feel the message is the same and the only difference in these books is that 3 books were omitted from the OT in the NT and the messages in the writings are still basically the same. I have read both and I am one that believes that while the thought process was good in developing the NT, it lacked in many other areas...

    Just as the compulation of the OT ommitted certain gospels during it's creation, the NT has ommitted certain things as well... If you truly want to know and understand the book, you must first accept that it is NOT a complete book and that many parts of the history of Christianity has been buried or thrown out as being heriacy...

    I am a person that thrives on ALL facts need to be included in an argument...

    Props to In Flames for the SICK SIG!
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    Miamian's Avatar
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    From a Jewish perspective, the act of homosexuality is considered an abomination, not being homosexual itself. If this beating were to have happened in Israel, most religious people would be appalled.
    אויר הרים צלול כיין וריח אורנים
    נישא ברוח הערביים עם קול פעמונים
    ובתרדמת אילן ואבן שבוייה בחלומה
    העיר אשר בדד יושבת ובליבה חומה

    ירושלים של זהב ושל נחושת ושל אור
    הלא לכל שירייך אני כינור

    מילי נעומי שמר
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    DolfinDave's Avatar
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    Even if we all come to a consensus that homosexuality or the act of it is wrong that doesn't settle any sort of marriage debate pertaining to the US. I would love for the main argument against gay marriage to be "the Bible says so". And I really don't know what other argument is out there.
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