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Thread: The Return of Howard Zinn, and Company- A packed house hears a left-wing critique of

  1. -1
    finataxia24's Avatar
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    The Return of Howard Zinn, and Company- A packed house hears a left-wing critique of



    "It's a very delicate question," he mused. "Why? Well, it's not easy to talk about." Everyone wants to support Obama, he continued, or at least everyone in his circle. Everyone wants to love Obama. But let's face it: "His presidency doesn't measure up. I have to say that. But why? How? How come?" Militarism, he answered. Obama has kept the troops in Iraq. He's sent more troops to Afghanistan. "He's continued a military foreign policy."

    Not to be a know-it-all, Zinn said ("though I do know it all," he joked), but those who expected great change from this president were fooling themselves. Look at history, he urged, invoking his mantra; Democrats are as aggressive as Republicans.

    "They're all in this for war," he said. "That's what we call bipartisanship." Those surprised or disappointed are those who "exaggerated expectations, romanticized him, idealized him. Obama is a Democratic Party politician. I know that sounds demeaning. It is."

    "There's an enormous weight left over by the Bush administration," Zinn said. "Unfortunately, he has done nothing to begin to lift that weight." Change can happen only by grassroots protest strong enough to move entrenched interests.

    ...

    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/10/29-4


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    Quote Originally Posted by finataxia24 View Post


    "It's a very delicate question," he mused. "Why? Well, it's not easy to talk about." Everyone wants to support Obama, he continued, or at least everyone in his circle. Everyone wants to love Obama. But let's face it: "His presidency doesn't measure up. I have to say that. But why? How? How come?" Militarism, he answered. Obama has kept the troops in Iraq. He's sent more troops to Afghanistan. "He's continued a military foreign policy."

    Not to be a know-it-all, Zinn said ("though I do know it all," he joked), but those who expected great change from this president were fooling themselves. Look at history, he urged, invoking his mantra; Democrats are as aggressive as Republicans.

    "They're all in this for war," he said. "That's what we call bipartisanship." Those surprised or disappointed are those who "exaggerated expectations, romanticized him, idealized him. Obama is a Democratic Party politician. I know that sounds demeaning. It is."

    "There's an enormous weight left over by the Bush administration," Zinn said. "Unfortunately, he has done nothing to begin to lift that weight." Change can happen only by grassroots protest strong enough to move entrenched interests.

    ...

    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/10/29-4



    Zinn along with Chomsky and even the ACLU all agree. Obama is the same as Bush. Now trying to convince the followers is like pissing up a rope. Apologists and excuse makers just like Bush supporters.





    "Politics is the Art of Looking for Trouble, Finding it Everywhere, Diagnosing it Incorrectly, and Applying the Wrong Remedies"
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    JamesBW43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolphins9954 View Post
    Zinn along with Chomsky and even the ACLU all agree. Obama is the same as Bush. Now trying to convince the followers is like pissing up a rope. Apologists and excuse makers just like Bush supporters.
    I guess I'll try to get my point across one more time and hope you understand it...

    Zinn is saying Democrats are just as agressive as Republicans in regards to militarism. And Obama is a Democratic politician. I agree with this and have never refuted it. (Although before Bush, I was under the impression that Democrats were actually more in favor of militarism than Republicans to be honest, I could be wrong but that was my impression at the time.)

    Anyway, I do disagree when you say Obama is the same as Bush. Bush is not typical in my mind. The Bush administration was exceptionally hawkish and the Iraq war was not simple American militarism. It was an exceptionally stupid and exceptionally pointless war. The Iraq threat existed only in the minds of the administration, and so they began an unprovoked, pre-emptive war.

    To put it simply, I think the Bush administration was an exceptionally hawkish group, I think Obama is a typical U.S. politician who is in favor of militarism, but not as bad as Bush, with his pre-emptive war on Iraq.
    Not every human is a manipulative, opportunistic, letch... or at least that's what I'm told.
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    Dolphins9954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesBW43 View Post
    I guess I'll try to get my point across one more time and hope you understand it...

    Zinn is saying Democrats are just as agressive as Republicans in regards to militarism. And Obama is a Democratic politician. I agree with this and have never refuted it. (Although before Bush, I was under the impression that Democrats were actually more in favor of militarism than Republicans to be honest, I could be wrong but that was my impression at the time.)

    Anyway, I do disagree when you say Obama is the same as Bush. Bush is not typical in my mind. The Bush administration was exceptionally hawkish and the Iraq war was not simple American militarism. It was an exceptionally stupid and exceptionally pointless war. The Iraq threat existed only in the minds of the administration, and so they began an unprovoked, pre-emptive war.

    To put it simply, I think the Bush administration was an exceptionally hawkish group, I think Obama is a typical U.S. politician who is in favor of militarism, but not as bad as Bush, with his pre-emptive war on Iraq.

    You don't think the bombing of Pakistan is pre-emptive? That's a clear act of war and aggression. So he's Bush-lite in your opinion. Either way not the change we were promised. You also have to look at the other similaraties as well. Big government, debt, corporatism, loss of liberties, disregard for the constiution, bailouts, Patriot Act, FISA, torture/rendition, etc. There isn't much difference at all. Especially to have a functioning democracy.
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    What is the goal of being in Afghanistan?


    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
    Frederic Bastiat
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    finataxia24's Avatar
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    All
    you folks expect Obama to reverse everything that Clinton put in place, and enact what Clinton failed to enact (like f**king health care), and then some.

    Clinton = 8 years to put into place a bunch of f*** up $h*t.
    Bush = 8 years to pile on to the previous 8 years with really f*ck$d up s***.
    Obama = folks have been ****ting on him since January 20th to undo the last 16 years,
    demanding that he clean up everyone elses s***!


    besides the fact republicans have had held the presidency for 4o yrs

    minus clinton & carter & obama.
    Obama is
    A Corporate President

    And like Bill Clinton he is looking like he will preside over four or eight years in which Democrats have the White House, but the consolidation of Corporate Power will take precedence over actual liberal/progressive reform aimed at restoring the working and middle class and providing a safety net for the poor.

    We will continue to be given comforting vaguely liberal-sounding words, and occasional token bones.

    But when push comes to shove, the same ol' gang of Democrat Oligarchs that have worked with the GOP to hollow out America with deregulation, globalization and Insider Government since the 1970's will remain in charge....And now we can add Corporate Bail Outs and Mandated Windfalls to the mix.

    Fire Away.
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