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Thread: Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!

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    shula_guy's Avatar
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    Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!

    Quote Originally Posted by
    Delivered by Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775, Virginia House of Burgesses




    No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve.


    This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.


    Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope.


    We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.


    I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House.


    Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss.
    Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love?


    Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies?


    No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument?
    Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves.


    Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation.


    There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free– if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending–if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained–we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!


    They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?


    Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us.


    Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.


    It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace– but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

    Just an inspiring speech made by one of our founding fathers.


    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
    Frederic Bastiat
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    MDFINFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shula_guy View Post
    Just an inspiring speech made by one of our founding fathers.
    The use of God so much in politics..I wonder when the repubs, who seem to try and claim God for themselves lost the words of Christ when he said helping the least of these is honoring him.. So why are they against helping each other, or calling what Jesus said socialism?
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    shula_guy's Avatar
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    You would have to ask someone who is a believer, I am an athesist
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    poornate's Avatar
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    I'm more of a Madison kind of guy....
    "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN View Post
    The use of God so much in politics..I wonder when the repubs, who seem to try and claim God for themselves lost the words of Christ when he said helping the least of these is honoring him.. So why are they against helping each other, or calling what Jesus said socialism?
    I must have missed something, but can anyone show me where the GOP claimed God for themselves? Can you point to anything?

    Conservatives are reguarly upset about how God is removed from the public arena by the likes of the ACLU and other left wing groups. As Conservatives rally against the ACLU in such efforts, they are trying to keep God in the public arena for us all. Maybe the left fight the ACLU too, but I've never witnessed it.

    Jesus didn't call for Socialism. He didn't say it was OK for the government or my neighbor even to decide just how much I should be able to afford to help another. That's the key distinction. I will gladly give what I choose to give. I detest someone else making that decision for me.

    Leave Jesus out of it. It's between me and the government. They simply want to take the money I earned and give it to someone who didn't earn it.
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    MDFINFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jguig View Post
    I must have missed something, but can anyone show me where the GOP claimed God for themselves? Can you point to anything?

    Conservatives are reguarly upset about how God is removed from the public arena by the likes of the ACLU and other left wing groups. As Conservatives rally against the ACLU in such efforts, they are trying to keep God in the public arena for us all. Maybe the left fight the ACLU too, but I've never witnessed it.

    Jesus didn't call for Socialism. He didn't say it was OK for the government or my neighbor even to decide just how much I should be able to afford to help another. That's the key distinction. I will gladly give what I choose to give. I detest someone else making that decision for me.

    Leave Jesus out of it. It's between me and the government. They simply want to take the money I earned and give it to someone who didn't earn it.
    Name one time you decided to pay so much in taxes for helping others..??
    That's generally done at the gov't level by your elected reps.. I haven't seen one time where we been able to say how much taxes we pay, or want to pay..

    The GOP are not keeping God in the public sector..in fact most blacks I know go to church and they mostly belong in the dem party, so I see the dems having as much God as the GOP..U speak of groups, those groups don't rep the whole party from what I've seen. ..in fact, blacks are a large segment of the dem party and they love God and keep Him in their hearts as much as anyone else... You can't legislate God in the public sector no more than you can legislate "wanting" to help others.. So for everything you said about what they, the repubs, try to do, they seem to miss the basic premise Christ talked about.. God wants us to make a choice..we can't force ppl to accept him, they have to open their hearts gladly and do so.. so I don't care what groups do, they can't take Christ out of me. and that's where He is, in us..

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    After Jesus left the 2nd time and the Holy Spirit came, and men became baptized in the Spirit, the very first thing they did was what..

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
    43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
    44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
    45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

    46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
    47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    So if that was the first thing man did when the Holy Spirit entered the earth, why would we call it socialism now..God meant for us to look after one another.. And yes, God wanted us to work, that's never been questioned..So I'm not pushing give to those who don't want to work..and that's not been proposed by our gov't.. But Bush basically said when giving tax breaks, we give the most to the rich because they make the most.. Huhhhh???? That's totally backwards and now we have a president who says let the tax break expire and spread that money back to the lower and middle class and I've heard that's called redistribution of money and socialism, but when it's the done the other way, which is what bush did..no arguments..are people blind or what?
    Last edited by MDFINFAN; 01-19-2010 at 01:16 AM.
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    shula_guy's Avatar
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    Without getting into a theological debate with you. Democrats are also very quick to point out the seperation on god and state. It is not the govts job to mandate morality.
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    kizzaboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN View Post
    Name one time you decided to pay so much in taxes for helping others..??
    That's generally done at the gov't level by your elected reps.. I haven't seen one time where we been able to say how much taxes we pay, or want to pay..

    The GOP are not keeping God in the public sector..in fact most blacks I know go to church and they mostly belong in the dem party, so I see the dems having as much God as the GOP..U speak of groups, those groups don't rep the whole party from what I've seen. ..in fact, blacks are a large segment of the dem party and they love God and keep Him in their hearts as much as anyone else... You can't legislate God in the public sector no more than you can legislate "wanting" to help others.. So for everything you said about what they, the repubs, try to do, they seem to miss the basic premise Christ talked about.. God wants us to make a choice..we can't force ppl to accept him, they have to open their hearts gladly and do so.. so I don't care what groups do, they can't take Christ out of me. and that's where He is, in us..



    After Jesus left the 2nd time and the Holy Spirit came, and men became baptized in the Spirit, the very first thing they did was what..



    So if that was the first thing man did when the Holy Spirit entered the earth, why would we call it socialism now..God meant for us to look after one another.. And yes, God wanted us to work, that's never been questioned..So I'm not pushing give to those who don't want to work..and that's not been proposed by our gov't.. But Bush basically said when giving tax breaks, we give the most to the rich because they make the most.. Huhhhh???? That's totally backwards and now we have a president who says let the tax break expire and spread that money back to the lower and middle class and I've heard that's called redistribution of money and socialism, but when it's the done the other way, which is what bush did..no arguments..are people blind or what?
    This is what is so troubling to me.. People consistently vote against their own interests

    The top 1% of Americans own 34% of assets of America's assets yet we vote for lower taxes, but for who? The wealthy.

    But people will scream that the wealthy create jobs so we can't tax them too much, in fact they need a tax break. We see how that works out time and time again and all it results in is more money that they do not need to contribute that they can pocket.

    Letting the wealthy keep their share of taxes does not equal more jobs. Cutting taxes on the rich arguably creates potential jobs..

    Approximately the lowest 80% of Americans own 15% of America and we cry when someone proposes "redistribution of wealth" by reinstating taxes that the rich that did not have to pay in the past 8 years. I just don't get it. :facepalm:
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    Quote Originally Posted by shula_guy View Post
    Without getting into a theological debate with you. Democrats are also very quick to point out the seperation on god and state. It is not the govts job to mandate morality.
    You mean that little thing that Thomas Jefferson started up?

    Separation of church and state has a purpose. And that is to block governments potential to mandate morality and to stray from a theocracy or anything in the realm of such. It does nothing to do with mandating morality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDFINFAN
    Name one time you decided to pay so much in taxes for helping others..??
    That's generally done at the gov't level by your elected reps.. I haven't seen one time where we been able to say how much taxes we pay, or want to pay..
    You obviously missed my point entirely. If you re-read my post, you'll note that I didn't reference taxes. You did. Yes, it is my moral obligation to help people. You believe that the government needs to be a middle man in the process. I do not. My charitable donations are done on my terms and I am most generous in that effort. I resent the implication that the government needs to decide for me how much that should be.

    In fact, data has been publicized in the past that the red states are far bigger contributors of charitable donations than the blue states. This acutally is a manifestation of our key difference in this debate as people in blue states likely believe (as do you) that the government should take your money for this purpose rather than you freely deciding to give it.
    Last edited by Dolphan7; 01-19-2010 at 11:10 AM.
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