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Thread: LeBron James...PROOF that Loyalty DOESN'T MATTER...

  1. -601
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhinzN703 View Post
    Not sure what baseball has to do with anything. Junc is right in that Ray Allen bailed the Heat out in Game 6 along with Duncan not being on the floor which led to SA's inability to get one more god damn rebound.

    What that does to James's legacy I could give a ****. I don't care who was/is better between Jordan and James.
    It does nothing. Are Kobe's or shaqs legacys diminished because it took Portland choking a 15 point fourth quarter lead, a ball bouncing right to Horry for a 3 or a luck 3 by Derek fisher to win titles? Does it diminish magic Johnson's legacy that Detroit blew a last minute lead in game 6 in 1988 with isiah Thomas twisted ankle and that it took Byron Scott hitting a jumper in the last minute to save LA? Oh and worthy got finals MVP. I could go on and on. It's not how you won but if you won that's remembered. Only people with agendas will hand pick what part of games should have significance in terms of legacy and what parts should be conviently ignored. They are in the vast vast minority and hold no objectivity.
    Last edited by Harry_Bagpipe; 06-26-2013 at 01:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_Bagpipe View Post
    It does nothing. Are Kobe's or shaqs legacys diminished because it took Portland choking a 15 point fourth quarter lead, a ball bouncing right to Horry for a 3 or a luck 3 by Derek fisher to win titles? Does it diminish magic Johnson's legacy that Detroit blew a last minute lead in game 6 in 1988 with isiah Thomas twisted ankle and that it took Byron Scott hitting a jumper in the last minute to save LA? Oh and worthy got finals MVP. I could go on and on. It's not how you won but if you won that's remembered. Only people with agendas will hand pick what part of games should have significance in terms of legacy and what parts should be conviently ignored. They are in the vast vast minority and hold no objectivity.
    I think people really just don't like what James did in going to Miami. Jordan was drafted by Chicago, Magic Johnson by the Lakers, Isiah with the Pistons, Robinson and Duncan with the Spurs, etc. Whether it's right or wrong that's how some feel.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PhinzN703 View Post
    I think people really just don't like what James did in going to Miami. Jordan was drafted by Chicago, Magic Johnson by the Lakers, Isiah with the Pistons, Robinson and Duncan with the Spurs, etc. Whether it's right or wrong that's how some feel.
    Shaq left Orlando to go to la to be a movie star. Does that decision have an influence on people's opinion of him now? Kobe refused to play for Charlotte who originally drafted him and than tried to force a trade to Chicago after being a lottery team the year after shaq left. If it wasn't for Chicago including deng in the trade, Kobe would of been a bull. Think that affects his legacy? Barkley forced a trade to Phoenix to play with Kevin Johnson and try to win a title while in his prime. If he wins a title, his legacy doesn't take a hit. People's opinions of athletes change over time when rationality takes over. There are tons of examples of athletes in all sports who were hated during parts of their playing career and are beloved now. John McEnroe, in his heyday was hated by most tennis fans. He was dubbed the tennis brat. He is universally beloved now. Barkley was no fan favorite during his playing days and now he is super popular.

    All this rhetoric about how the older players would never team up is nonsense. Larry bird was trying to recruit Jordan to come to Boston when he was becoming a free agent.

    Trust me. Lebrons hate nowadays is nowhere near it was two years ago. He wins a couple more titles and he will become more and more a fan favorite. After its all said and done, after he's retired, people will reflect on his decision and realize it was the smartest move he made in his career. Only a small small petty minority will hold on to that insignificant fact in order to detract from his greatness. People always romanticize the long retired players.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylerdolphin View Post
    How many times did Babe Ruth ever take a knuckleballer deep in game 7 of the ALCS in NY in extra innings to left field against the Red Sox to win the game?

    Aaaron Boone >>>> Babe Ruth.

    See how ridiculous it is to try use super exact scenarios?
    Baseball is a different sport, one player isn't carrying a team in baseball, in basketball it happens w/ the greats. Jordan never allowed his team to face elimination in the Finals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_Bagpipe View Post
    Lol. Again. Handpicking arbitrary qualifications and ignoring those that don't fit your pre-fabricated conclusion. Using non-quantitative statements that have zero substance such as "people who truly understand the game think X, and if you don't think X than you don't understand the game". Creating strawmen. You do it in regards to football so its no surprise you do it with basketball. When lebrons career is over, barring injury, he will be considered the best or second best ever and there's nothing you can do about it. You can try to convince your grandkids otherwise but I doubt they'll listen.
    You can pretend all you want, I don't want to dash your dreams.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCane View Post
    Yeah, man, that's exactly it lol.

    Continue to make things up as you see fit, though.

    My argument is that people in all walks of life should be able to make choices that benefit themselves without criticism of those who have never walked in their shoes. LeBron has two championships in Miami. Those are two titles that he wouldn't have got in Cleveland. Ever. He made the right decision.

    You seem to be some kind of entitled little fan. As if these players owe you something as a fan of the game.

    Who cares who the best is. You can make arguments for players being the best who aren't Michael and who aren't LeBron. When it comes down to "who the best is" you're splitting hairs at the top.

    LeBron lacks the killer mentality that guys like Jordan and Kobe have, guys like Jordan and Kobe lack the total all around game. It's crazy to me how some people make these team sports all about individual accomplishments.
    he can make any choice he wants and I never said he couldn't, I have always said as a fan of the sport how disappointing it is that an all time great would take the easy way out. He had his choice and he made and he deals w/ what comes along w/ it.

    I think it's fun to debate who was the best. Does it really matter? of course not, does any of this stuff really matter? it's all for fun or it's supposed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_Bagpipe View Post
    It does nothing. Are Kobe's or shaqs legacys diminished because it took Portland choking a 15 point fourth quarter lead, a ball bouncing right to Horry for a 3 or a luck 3 by Derek fisher to win titles? Does it diminish magic Johnson's legacy that Detroit blew a last minute lead in game 6 in 1988 with isiah Thomas twisted ankle and that it took Byron Scott hitting a jumper in the last minute to save LA? Oh and worthy got finals MVP. I could go on and on. It's not how you won but if you won that's remembered. Only people with agendas will hand pick what part of games should have significance in terms of legacy and what parts should be conviently ignored. They are in the vast vast minority and hold no objectivity.
    Kobe's got 5 and reached 7
    Magic has 5 and reached 9

    Magic was my favorite player but he's not Michael and he admits this. Jordan is on another level from those 2, Lebron and others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylerdolphin View Post
    How many times did Babe Ruth ever take a knuckleballer deep in game 7 of the ALCS in NY in extra innings to left field against the Red Sox to win the game?

    Aaaron Boone >>>> Babe Ruth.

    See how ridiculous it is to try use super exact scenarios?
    well the thing is Jordan never missed a game winner, he never blew a late game lead and he unlike Lebron he never ever ever turned the ball over twice at the end of a playoff game to cause his team to get eliminated

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    Hey Guys... By the Way Lebron is 28 with 2 Titles, 2 Finals MVP, and 4 MVPS. And he is getting better every season FG % and 3 pt %.... This is just getting started ladies and gentleman ENJOY THE RIDE for the greatest player of this Era. yes that includes Kobe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyjunc
    Again, the team he had a few years ago was not going to be the team he had now or in the future. If it was then leave but they would bring in talent
    How would you know? Lebron was there for seven years & they never had championship caliber teams. In the 3 years since Lebron left (in which Dan Gilbert guaranteed heíd win a championship before Lebron), the Cavs will have had a top-five pick for the 3rd straight year, 4 times overall, & the very first pick twice. By all indications, it would appear that Dan Gilbert is committed to losing & not paying any luxery tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyjunc
    he didn't have the most talented teams but in a weak East he had more than enough to compete for East titles and w/ no dominant team in the league more than enough to compete for NBA titles.
    You saw in 2007 it wasnít enough. I donít know why youíre so cocksure that Dan Gilbert wouldíve turned a new-leaf to pony-up & gotten him some superstar help, or that a superstar (or two) would even want to go to Cleveland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyjunc
    Those Chi teams look talented NOW but no one was going crazy over that talent at the time, Jordan elevated that talent. It wasn't close to what Magic or Bird had but he carried and willed teams to titles that probably shouldn't have won those first 3 titles.
    They didnít just look good, they were good. 57 games in 93í with Jordan, & 55 games in 94í without him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyjunc
    those guys are different, they shouldn't run to latch onto others.
    Jordan got drafted into a better situation than Lebron. If Jordan gets drafted by some historically bad franchise like the Clippers, Hornets, Nets, or CavaLols, who know how his career turns out. Maybe he only wins 1 ring instead of six. Maybe heís forced to switch teams in order to actually compete. He saw his chance to win titles & he seized it. I donít hold that against Lebron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyjunc
    he'll never be Michael, losing 2 Finals and going to game 7 along w/ hopping on to a ready made team ensure that.
    Thatís pretty dumb. What if Lebron goes 6 for 8 in the finals? Do you hold it against him that he actually made it to the finals more than Jordan? Are you actually saying his legacy would be better if he had not made it to the finals wit the Cavs? Thatís like saying youíd hold it against Tom Brady if he went 4 for 6 in Superbowls because Montana went 4-0. Itís nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob19 View Post
    How would you know? Lebron was there for seven years & they never had championship caliber teams. In the 3 years since Lebron left (in which Dan Gilbert guaranteed heíd win a championship before Lebron), the Cavs will have had a top-five pick for the 3rd straight year, 4 times overall, & the very first pick twice. By all indications, it would appear that Dan Gilbert is committed to losing & not paying any luxery tax.



    You saw in 2007 it wasnít enough. I donít know why youíre so cocksure that Dan Gilbert wouldíve turned a new-leaf to pony-up & gotten him some superstar help, or that a superstar (or two) would even want to go to Cleveland.



    They didnít just look good, they were good. 57 games in 93í with Jordan, & 55 games in 94í without him.


    Jordan got drafted into a better situation than Lebron. If Jordan gets drafted by some historically bad franchise like the Clippers, Hornets, Nets, or CavaLols, who know how his career turns out. Maybe he only wins 1 ring instead of six. Maybe heís forced to switch teams in order to actually compete. He saw his chance to win titles & he seized it. I donít hold that against Lebron.



    Thatís pretty dumb. What if Lebron goes 6 for 8 in the finals? Do you hold it against him that he actually made it to the finals more than Jordan? Thatís like saying youíd hold it against Tom Brady if he went 4 for 6 in Superbowls. Itís nonsense.
    All his arguments are nonsense. He arbitrarily picks and chooses which facts are relevant or not depending on his stance and then will change that position depending on the player. He'll hold it against Lebron that he lost in the finals twice but than use the fact that magic went 5 for 9 losing four times as a positive. He'll say Lebron choking in a finals game is worse than Jordan choking a division series away but if it was reversed, it would be better to lose in the finals than in the round before. He'll hold it against Lebron for switching teams but won't apply that same scrutiny to any other player. Instead when I used that point against him he quickly made a completely irrelevant point about number of titles won. But if Lebron wins 6 titles, it won't matter cause he switched teams. The funny thing is how he has zero idea how utterly ridiculous he sounds to most everyone else and how silly his arguments sound.

    anyhoo, I've wasted enough time discussing the matter. Heat are the champs!!! We have the best player of this generation and are going for a 3peat. Times are good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_Bagpipe View Post
    well the thing is Jordan never missed a game winner, he never blew a late game lead and he unlike Lebron he never ever ever turned the ball over twice at the end of a playoff game to cause his team to get eliminated

    No one ever aid that, he missed many GW shots but that is a poor example. That was a month after his 2 year layoff.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob19 View Post
    How would you know? Lebron was there for seven years & they never had championship caliber teams. In the 3 years since Lebron left (in which Dan Gilbert guaranteed heíd win a championship before Lebron), the Cavs will have had a top-five pick for the 3rd straight year, 4 times overall, & the very first pick twice. By all indications, it would appear that Dan Gilbert is committed to losing & not paying any luxery tax.



    You saw in 2007 it wasnít enough. I donít know why youíre so cocksure that Dan Gilbert wouldíve turned a new-leaf to pony-up & gotten him some superstar help, or that a superstar (or two) would even want to go to Cleveland.



    They didnít just look good, they were good. 57 games in 93í with Jordan, & 55 games in 94í without him.


    Jordan got drafted into a better situation than Lebron. If Jordan gets drafted by some historically bad franchise like the Clippers, Hornets, Nets, or CavaLols, who know how his career turns out. Maybe he only wins 1 ring instead of six. Maybe heís forced to switch teams in order to actually compete. He saw his chance to win titles & he seized it. I donít hold that against Lebron.



    Thatís pretty dumb. What if Lebron goes 6 for 8 in the finals? Do you hold it against him that he actually made it to the finals more than Jordan? Are you actually saying his legacy would be better if he had not made it to the finals wit the Cavs? Thatís like saying youíd hold it against Tom Brady if he went 4 for 6 in Superbowls because Montana went 4-0. Itís nonsense.
    I don't know, no one knows but I am pretty confident he would have won titles in Cleveland.

    NBA champs in '93 w/ Jordan, 2nd rd exit in '94 w/o him.

    Jordan got drafted into a terrible situation, an awful team and franchise. Jordan would have turned around any franchise.

    Yes, losing 2 finals is losing 2 finals. Jordan would have 8-10 titles if he didn't retire multiple times.

    Brady at 3-2 is worse than Montana at 4-0 and even if Brady wins another he still has 2 losses on his resume. That's a major reason why Montana is probably 1 and Brady 2 or 3 all time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_Bagpipe View Post
    All his arguments are nonsense. He arbitrarily picks and chooses which facts are relevant or not depending on his stance and then will change that position depending on the player. He'll hold it against Lebron that he lost in the finals twice but than use the fact that magic went 5 for 9 losing four times as a positive. He'll say Lebron choking in a finals game is worse than Jordan choking a division series away but if it was reversed, it would be better to lose in the finals than in the round before. He'll hold it against Lebron for switching teams but won't apply that same scrutiny to any other player. Instead when I used that point against him he quickly made a completely irrelevant point about number of titles won. But if Lebron wins 6 titles, it won't matter cause he switched teams. The funny thing is how he has zero idea how utterly ridiculous he sounds to most everyone else and how silly his arguments sound.

    anyhoo, I've wasted enough time discussing the matter. Heat are the champs!!! We have the best player of this generation and are going for a 3peat. Times are good.
    Magic played in an era w/ TRULY great teams, Lebron played in a MUCH weaker era and he never lost to a team as weak as Dallas 2011.

    I sound ridiculous to YOU b/c you are a homer and can't deal w/ reality. That doesn't bother me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry_Bagpipe View Post
    Shaq left Orlando to go to la to be a movie star. Does that decision have an influence on people's opinion of him now? Kobe refused to play for Charlotte who originally drafted him and than tried to force a trade to Chicago after being a lottery team the year after shaq left. If it wasn't for Chicago including deng in the trade, Kobe would of been a bull. Think that affects his legacy? Barkley forced a trade to Phoenix to play with Kevin Johnson and try to win a title while in his prime. If he wins a title, his legacy doesn't take a hit. People's opinions of athletes change over time when rationality takes over. There are tons of examples of athletes in all sports who were hated during parts of their playing career and are beloved now. John McEnroe, in his heyday was hated by most tennis fans. He was dubbed the tennis brat. He is universally beloved now. Barkley was no fan favorite during his playing days and now he is super popular.

    All this rhetoric about how the older players would never team up is nonsense. Larry bird was trying to recruit Jordan to come to Boston when he was becoming a free agent.

    Trust me. Lebrons hate nowadays is nowhere near it was two years ago. He wins a couple more titles and he will become more and more a fan favorite. After its all said and done, after he's retired, people will reflect on his decision and realize it was the smartest move he made in his career. Only a small small petty minority will hold on to that insignificant fact in order to detract from his greatness. People always romanticize the long retired players.
    I agree that over time people tend to make amends with certain players. Hell you hear that Favre will be making up with the Packers soon. Bygones are bygones.
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