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Thread: Official PoFo Members Football Sub-Forum

  1. -61
    LouPhinFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferretsquig View Post
    Success is fleeting in the NFL. They do seem to have a lot of things going for them, and I can't pretend to know how this is going to play out.

    But Reid is stubborn as hell, and he does not like being told what to do. McNabb, Westbrook, Dawkins, Trotter, Owens.......hes dumped some very good and very popular players. Philli rarely overpays, even when they probably should have with guys like Dawkins and Trotter.

    I know this is different, and right now Vick is arguably the best QB in the game. Still, you have to believe Philadelphia would approach this in a prudent manner, taking into account Vick's injury history, style of play, and past transgressions, and offer him a 3-4 yr incentive laden deal. Then Al Davis or Snyder swoops in and offers 50 mil guaranteed.....
    And you can't forget that they have Kolb as a fall back option. If Vick doesn't accept the deal they want to offer him and he walks, the cupboard isn't exactly bear at that position.
    Insert pithy saying here.

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  2. -62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouPhinFan View Post
    Your plan still doesn't help our over all lack of team speed.

    You can never go from a slow team to a fast team in one year. This FO has shown they would rather have big strong guys, as opposed to slightly smaller much faster guys.

    You CAN however go from a inept offense to an aggressive one in one year. I think Henne could get it done under a real OC. Unfortunately he has been "tainted" by this Geritol spokesman masquerading as an NFL OC. If we got Andrew Luck in here, no one would care that we don't have team speed. Just go ask the Patriots if they need team speed. That has to be the slowest team in the NFL, yet they win consistently. Why? Tom Brady. Question for ya. Who is the fastest guy on the Patriots? Tough question, huh?
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  3. -63
    FinFan 13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferretsquig View Post
    I could see Reid letting Vick become a FA, assuming they don't win the super bowl and Vick doesn't continue to put up inhuman numbers. Eventually he has to throw a pick....

    Can you see Reid offering Vick $100 mil after 13 games? You know someone will do it.
    After trading McNabb, to allow Kolb to take over the team and seeing what a disaster that turned out to be, Vick isn't going anywhere. You must be forgetting a little thing called the Franchise tag. If They can't reach an agreement on a long term contract this year, Reid will just Franchise him.
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  4. -64
    FinFan 13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylerdolphin View Post
    I think the Eagles almost have to. Can you imagine the backlash that FO would receive if they let Vick walk after the kind of year he has been having? Vick is probably going to get top 5 QB money, but that isnt too bad a price to pay considering how good he has been. And look at the Eagles...they are in prime position to make 4 or 5 SB runs. They have Jackson, Maclin and McCoy in their primes, Vick better than he has ever been, a competent coaching staff, and a good enough defense. I can definitely see a dominant run happening.

    Agree. They have most of the pieces in place to be a contender for years. If Reid let's Vick leave, they will stone him to death in Philly...
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  5. -65
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinFan 13 View Post
    After trading McNabb, to allow Kolb to take over the team and seeing what a disaster that turned out to be, Vick isn't going anywhere. You must be forgetting a little thing called the Franchise tag. If They can't reach an agreement on a long term contract this year, Reid will just Franchise him.
    I think saying that Kolb was a disaster isn't really true. You have to give that experiment an "incomplete" right now. Vick playing so well when Kolb got hit in the noggin halted that process, not necessarily anything Kolb did. Sure he didn't light it up immediately, but QBs still have to learn how to be full time starters and Kolb was in that process. Its just no one expected Vick to play like that. Honestly, did you?
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  6. -66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouPhinFan View Post
    I think saying that Kolb was a disaster isn't really true. You have to give that experiment an "incomplete" right now. Vick playing so well when Kolb got hit in the noggin halted that process, not necessarily anything Kolb did. Sure he didn't light it up immediately, but QBs still have to learn how to be full time starters and Kolb was in that process. Its just no one expected Vick to play like that. Honestly, did you?
    So why does Kolb get that time, but Henne doesn't? Not directed at you specifically, but you're absolutely right. QBs need that time to learn the position.

    I'm a huge proponent of sitting young QBs behind a veteran for a few seasons for this reason. It gives them time to learn the intricacies of the game without the huge expectations and the harassment from the fans if you so much as take a dump the wrong way. When you start the young QBs right away, the learning process happens on the field instead of in a safe environment. That leaves the learning much less predictable since you can't control what happens in a game. If it was me in charge, I would have kept Henne on the bench this season and probably next as well. Then in 2012, he can take over since he has learned how to read defenses, look off his receivers, and do all the other little things QBs are expected to do in order be more than average...

    If I could take your pain and frame it, and hang it on my wall,
    maybe you would never have to hurt again...

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  7. -67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    So why does Kolb get that time, but Henne doesn't? Not directed at you specifically, but you're absolutely right. QBs need that time to learn the position.

    I'm a huge proponent of sitting young QBs behind a veteran for a few seasons for this reason. It gives them time to learn the intricacies of the game without the huge expectations and the harassment from the fans if you so much as take a dump the wrong way. When you start the young QBs right away, the learning process happens on the field instead of in a safe environment. That leaves the learning much less predictable since you can't control what happens in a game. If it was me in charge, I would have kept Henne on the bench this season and probably next as well. Then in 2012, he can take over since he has learned how to read defenses, look off his receivers, and do all the other little things QBs are expected to do in order be more than average...
    A valid point. However the cases a very different. Kolb started a couple of games last year for an injured McNabb and the a few this year. So he hasn't started very many games and has not had many teams "gameplan" against him. Henne has had all those starts last year when Penny went down and all the starts this year. I'm not saying give up on Henne, but just saying there is an obvious diffence between the 2 situations.
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  8. -68
    Locke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouPhinFan View Post
    A valid point. However the cases a very different. Kolb started a couple of games last year for an injured McNabb and the a few this year. So he hasn't started very many games and has not had many teams "gameplan" against him. Henne has had all those starts last year when Penny went down and all the starts this year. I'm not saying give up on Henne, but just saying there is an obvious diffence between the 2 situations.
    Kolb has been in the league a few years longer though. He has had that time to sit back and learn from the veterans. Henne sat that first year, and then 3 games last year. So he had 14 games last year, and 9 this year. The difference in games actually played isn't that many. The more important factor is time in the league, in my opinion, which Kolb has the advantage in. At some point, if you're still sitting behind a veteran after 4-5 years, it could be that its just your niche; a back up quarterback. I'm not saying Henne is better than Kolb, or vice-versa. I just don't think the situations are as different as you're saying...
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  9. -69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    I'm a huge proponent of sitting young QBs behind a veteran for a few seasons for this reason. It gives them time to learn the intricacies of the game without the huge expectations and the harassment from the fans if you so much as take a dump the wrong way. When you start the young QBs right away, the learning process happens on the field instead of in a safe environment. That leaves the learning much less predictable since you can't control what happens in a game.
    Everyone learns in a different way. Some people can read the book and pick it up, others need hands on experience. I don't think you can state that there is one optimal solution for all quarterbacks.

    What makes it almost impossible for fans or any other casual observer to come to any sort of informed conclusions is the lack of knowledge of what goes on in the film study, or on the practice field, or in the conversations between qb and coordinator. We're left to judge solely based on performance on the field, and there are so many variables that are left unseen. It doesn't help matters when the coaches themselves are ignorant.

    Personally I'm not much of a fan of Henne. I've never played the position so I don't have a clue what's going on in their heads but some guys seem to be able to have their mind in multiple places at once. They're aware of the pass rush and where their receivers are, all the while keeping in mind the situation and what the objective is. To me Henne looks like a guy who processes one thing at a time, and if the first doesn't work hes slow to move onto the next. Maybe that's something you improve on or maybe that "feel" for the pocket is just something that comes naturally to some. Who knows how Marino knew to step up or aside when he did, leaving defenders grasping for air....all the while keeping his eyes downfield.

    Still, I'd give him at least another year. If for no other reason than continuity. This team has a bunch of really talented players on both sides of the ball either in or entering their prime, and it seems like such a waste to spend another two years going through another two years of youth at qb. I don't think this team is good enough to win like the Jets are doing now or the Ravens and Falcons did last year with young and mistake prone qbs.
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  10. -70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    So why does Kolb get that time, but Henne doesn't? Not directed at you specifically, but you're absolutely right. QBs need that time to learn the position.

    I'm a huge proponent of sitting young QBs behind a veteran for a few seasons for this reason. It gives them time to learn the intricacies of the game without the huge expectations and the harassment from the fans if you so much as take a dump the wrong way. When you start the young QBs right away, the learning process happens on the field instead of in a safe environment. That leaves the learning much less predictable since you can't control what happens in a game. If it was me in charge, I would have kept Henne on the bench this season and probably next as well. Then in 2012, he can take over since he has learned how to read defenses, look off his receivers, and do all the other little things QBs are expected to do in order be more than average...

    Well said Locke, I agree that the art of QBing is being lost on the instant expectation being put on them. I think they bring it upon themselves with the huge salaries they demand before even taking a snap also. QB is the toughest postion to master. Henne needs more time before we condem him. I think he also needs better coaching and I am not speaking about the terrible play calling. IMO what Henne needs to master with the help of coaching is a several things:

    1. His accuracy He isnt horrible but he could place the ball better more consistently. This is a fixable issue and his coaches should be coaching that into him. He can do it he just needs to coached how to do it on every throw.

    2. His delivery. He does not throw laser passes. I know he has a cannon arm but if you watch the ball he doesnt release it fast and hard like he should. This is another fixable item with the help of his coaches and some extra time in the weightroom.

    3. His reads. He checks down more then he should. I think he either lacks confidence in himself or his recievers, or he lacks the ability to anticipate where his reciever is going to break and where is going to be before he is there. He throws like is playing catch with his guys rather then exploiting defenses by understanding the coverage they are using and putting the ball in places that recievers can break on the ball and make plays and make the defenses that face him look foolish. He needs to be in the filmroom breaking it down more. Again coaches can help him with that too.

    4. Pocket pressence. This is something I do not think the coaches can do much for him and he is going to have to develop that 6th sense
    on his own. He isnt afraid to stand in there and take a hit but he has to figure out how to extend a play when defenders on seemingly going to get him. He needs to become more elusive. It takes awareness of who is where and how long he needs to buy for the play to unfold and him to deliver it on target.

    I am not Anti-Henne by any stretch but he is very raw and needs a lot of polishing before he can be considered a legitimate franchise level QB. The circumstances in Miami does not afford him the luxry that Arron Rodgers recieved in Green Bay. Henne has to learn on the field because we have nobody else better. I know some of you are going to flame me here but if Vince Young does get released and we can woo him to Miami without giving him an obscene amount of money or a slew of draft picks, I think thats the best alternative that is a long shot but plausable.

    Finfan13 and anyone else hoping to get luck here is dreaming. There is no garuntee he declares but if he does there are too many teams in front of us who are as desperate as we are for a decent QB. They are not going to let us trade up for him or the other two QB's being talked about in this draft class. I think if Young gets released he will be out of reach for us too because it will probably take us getting into a bidding war and force us to massivily overpay for him and he has a reputation of being unreliable under Fischer.

    The reason I am high on Young is not because I think he is a great QB but I do think he is better the Henne is right now. Signing Young could provide Henne some relief from the pressure of being the starter. Young I think is a better QB then he appears to be under Fischer. I think Fischer is not helping Young and it is reflecting in his play. I think under a coach who believes in him could turn him into a much better QB. If Miami could make him feel like he fits in here it could be a win/win situation for everyone. I would even seriously consider if the deal included us swapping QB's. Tennesse may better suited to develop Henne while Young may thrive here.

    I think it actually happening is a longshot but if the opprotunity showed itself I would be in favor of pulling the trigger. At worst it buys us a few seasons to shop for another QB without tanking the next few seasons. JMO
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