You’re right in that both of the major recent candidates don’t offer that distinction, & therein lies the problem. Apparently most people are ignorant of, or don’t care enough that they’re being spied upon to pick a candidate who doesn’t want to spy on them.Originally Posted by TheWalrus
I’ve read about it; not in great detail but enough to know what happened. Shouldn’t civil liberties be everyone’s primary concern though? What could possibly take precedence over your freedoms? I still wouldn’t agree that because we’re at war with countries on the eastern hemisphere that we need to spy on our own citizens, or that the practice should be accepted or tolerated.Originally Posted by TheWalrus
Wasn’t even aware it was his site, it came up in the search; along with the ‘wired’ article, whom I think is a reputable website.Originally Posted by TheWalrus
Rand Paul:Originally Posted by TheWalrus
“Prior to this legislation, a US citizen accused of being allied with al Qaeda or plotting terrorist activity was considered to have committed a crime. Being accused of a crime, these people had civil rights relating to access to a lawyer and the right to remain silent. Floor statements made by Senators indicate that the legislation is intended to change this so that anyone accused of terrorist activity has not committed a crime, but has committed an act of war. In doing this, they do not have the right to remain silent or access a lawyer. In this manner, they can be held indefinitely without the right end this questioning.Originally Posted by JamesBW43
This change in classification is accomplished by classifying the US as a battlefield in the war on terror. The legislation uses the phrase "affirms" when discussing the executive power because the power of the President to arrest and detain enemy combatants on a battlefield is already established. In the case of Jose Padilla and in previous cases during WWII, it was shown that the President can indeed arrest and detain US citizens captured on US soil aiding the enemy in a time of war. However, in the Padilla case, the courts held that since the US is not a battlefield in the war on terror, Padilla must be granted habaes corpus rights and tried as a criminal in the civilian courts. Eventually, Padilla was sentenced to 17 years for his actions.
One section of the legislation states that nothing in the bill is intended to change existing laws with respect to the arrest and detention of US citizens. This has led to a belief that the bill states that it does not apply to US citizens. This is not the case. That section states that current law is not changed by the legislation, but current law already holds that the President already has the power to arrest and indefinitely detain unlawful enemy combatants captured on the battlefield. This legislation merely adds the US homeland as a battlefield and affirms the Presidents authority under that law. Therefore the effect of the law on US citizens is changed without changing the law itself.”
“Senator Feinstein of California proposed two amendments to the legislation which both had the purpose of insuring that US citizens captured on US soil would not fall under the provisions of the legisation. The first amendment simply added the word "abroad" to the end of a sentence to ensure that the legislation only applied to those captured abroad. The second simply stated that the provisions did not apply to US citizens captured on US soil.
Both amendments were defeated easily in votes on December 1, 2011.”
Not that I’m aware of. I’m not sure what’s up with your dilemma though. I’d toss that question in the questions & suggestions forum (with a little bit more flattering language), & see if one of the more tech-savvy admins can help you out.Originally Posted by Spesh
http://tv.yahoo.com/news/joe-biden-p...Gxlcnk-;_ylv=3Just two days after being re-elected as Vice President of the United States, Biden will make a guest appearance on NBC's Parks and Recreation. The cameo -- which was filmed this summer when the cast shot scenes in Washington -- will involve an opening segment in which Biden meeting with Amy Poehler's hyperactive, civic-obsessed city councilwoman Leslie Knope.
It will be a big moment for Knope; though Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi are her political role models, Biden -- and Biden alone -- comprises her celebrity sex list.
"Vice-President Biden is both Leslie's political hero and her number-one celebrity crush, so meeting him is obviously a huge moment for her," Mike Schur, the show's EP, said in a statement. "We looked at a number of actors to OK the role of 'Vice-President Joe Biden,' and ultimately, Joe Biden himself gave the best audition."
I didnt think i could love Joe Biden more....and then this happened. Dear god that man is ****ing awesome.
Gary Johnson only got 1% of the vote. That's hardly "sending a message" and as a practical matter means you left the election to be decided by others, where there was a real possibility that a guy worse on civil liberties than the president could have won.
I think you're betraying your age here. The vast majority of people are not ideological, they're practical. And the #1 practical concern is and always has been money/the economy. Nothing takes precedence over being able to feed your kids, put a little away for their college education and your retirement, and do it on a budget. As for civil liberties, most people consider themselves law abiding and with nothing to hide. They don't like it when it intrudes on them but it's not a top concern. Any exit poll will tell you that.I’ve read about it; not in great detail but enough to know what happened. Shouldn’t civil liberties be everyone’s primary concern though? What could possibly take precedence over your freedoms? I still wouldn’t agree that because we’re at war with countries on the eastern hemisphere that we need to spy on our own citizens, or that the practice should be accepted or tolerated.
Wired is reputable, but the article you linked to is irrelevant. The criteria the military uses to observe/spy on it's own has nothing to do with the NDAA or the Patriot Act.Wasn’t even aware it was his site, it came up in the search; along with the ‘wired’ article, whom I think is a reputable website.
As for the Rand Paul thing, the profiling of criminal behavior is a long established aspect of law enforcement. Sure, there's nothing inherently sinister about missing fingers. But bomb makers often have missing fingers, which means that if you put it together with other behaviors can be an indication of criminal behavior.
The question is when these behaviors become sufficient for probable cause. That specific line -- whether it's changed and how -- is information I don't have and haven't seen.
As I said earlier, the most important question is whether US soil is considered -- or is going to be considered -- a battlefield. That doesn't seem to be something that's been settled legally, though it appears the attempt is being made to classify it that way, which would allow well established precedent over the essentially unchecked power of the president and military on the battlefield to take hold.
We'll see, I guess. It seems unlikely to me that it would hold, especially considering how close the Padilla ruling was. If strict scrutiny attached, that would make it harder for it to be upheld (a good thing), but the problem with that is that since the "right to privacy" isn't in the Constitution in the explicit way the right to liberty and free speech is (especially relative to electronic communication), the chance that a "rational basis" test (which is easier to pass) would be used is higher.
Last edited by TheWalrus; 11-10-2012 at 10:52 PM.
is the fiscal cliff anywhere near mount rushmore ?
I’m not questioning your decision of Obama over Romney. I understand from a pragmatic stand-point you felt forced to vote for one of the two major candidates (probably like most other people). However, that doesn’t change what I said in that most people are either ignorant of, or don’t care enough about being spied upon to not vote for certain candidates. I'm sure a lot of people don't necessarily like it, but not enough so to vote for another party, or nominate a candidate in their own party who doesn't hold those aspirations.Originally Posted by TheWarlrus
So dissapointing. We might be a couple years away from changing the star-spangled banner to “O'er the land of the free-ish and the home of the tame.”Originally Posted by TheWalrus
You left out things like having 7 days of food, or owning several fire-arms, or owning weather proof amunition for hunting. I’m sure a staggering number of people fall into that category. I have more than 7 days of food in my house as we speak; what’s to say they’re not justified in suspecting you or I of terrorism if that’s one of the criteria? Rand Paul wouldn’t lie, or get away with lying about such criteria on the senate floor.Originally Posted by TheWalrus
It is currently deemed a battle-field. Despite James’ contention, U.S citizens on U.S soil can still be detained indefinitely. You also have far more faith than I that this decision won’t stand.Originally Posted by TheWalrus
Am I making too much of having our every digital move be tracked & recorded? I don't really think I am. I'm sure most people think of themselves as such a non-factor in the eyes of the government that they aren't overly concerned about such monitoring, but shouldn't this be a matter of principle?
The Walrus...I must ask. Do you also post under The Walrus on TMB?
I'm going to assume this is a joke.You left out things like having 7 days of food, or owning several fire-arms, or owning weather proof amunition for hunting. I’m sure a staggering number of people fall into that category. I have more than 7 days of food in my house as we speak; what’s to say they’re not justified in suspecting you or I of terrorism if that’s one of the criteria? Rand Paul wouldn’t lie, or get away with lying about such criteria on the senate floor.
Secondly, as I said, the profiling of criminal behavior is a long established practice. I don't think you're objecting to that, more that the result of profiling in lieu of hard evidence can be used to justify indefinite detention where before it might have only lead to questioning, surveillance or a search warrant.
I wouldn't call it faith. It just my read on the law. I'm far from an expert but I do a bit of reading on the subject. I don't think it will stand.It is currently deemed a battle-field. Despite James’ contention, U.S citizens on U.S soil can still be detained indefinitely. You also have far more faith than I that this decision won’t stand.
Well, allow me to play devil's advocate. Why do you have an expectation of privacy about information you put out on the internet? Forget how silly it is to expect message board posts or facebook to be private, but why do you think the "privacy agreement" you clicked "yes" on with your email provider is legally binding? They're hosting your emails on their servers, after all. And everyone knows that. And they're not lawyers or doctors or psychiatrists. You have no explicit, legally protected relationship with them, anymore than you do with a friend you swear to secrecy about something.Am I making too much of having our every digital move be tracked & recorded? I don't really think I am. I'm sure most people think of themselves as such a non-factor in the eyes of the government that they aren't overly concerned about such monitoring, but shouldn't this be a matter of principle?
You're not required to have a digital presence. No one makes you use a cell phone or write emails or use Google specifically or the internet generally. If you're going to venture out into a largely unregulated area, which the internet is, and put information out there of your own free will, why assume the government won't be listening when no law exists to stop them and the fourth amendment only covers your person, house, papers and effects?
@Cedar. Great pics. Looks sort of like the beach from the end of Planet of the Apes.
@tyler. Nope. Sorry. This is the only board I post at with this name. I'm sort of scared to ask what the other Walrus is like.
And we also talk bout sports.