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Thread: "What if you're wrong?" - Richard Dawkins

  1. -21
    tylerdolphin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    No it is quite true, in an atheistic universe knowledge would be completely impossible because none of the preconditions of intelligibility could be assumed to be true, thus making knowledge itself impossible. We know what we know because we live in a Universe governed by the God of the Bible. So even when a person questions His existence, the very act of questioning and seeking truth prove His existence.
    That makes zero logical sense. If you want to go down the philosophical road of "we cant know anything for sure" then thats fine. You cant just arbitrarily say that you need the Christian God in order to know anything though. If thats your personal philosophy thats fine as well, but its simply not provable in any way. Thats how YOU view the world, but it doesnt have the backing of actual evidence or proof. All you did was say that God exists because you think we we need God in order to reason. OK...prove it. You cant. And frankly its pretty ridiculous.




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  2. -22
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylerdolphin View Post
    That makes zero logical sense. If you want to go down the philosophical road of "we cant know anything for sure" then thats fine. You cant just arbitrarily say that you need the Christian God in order to know anything though. If thats your personal philosophy thats fine as well, but its simply not provable in any way. Thats how YOU view the world, but it doesnt have the backing of actual evidence or proof. All you did was say that God exists because you think we we need God in order to reason. OK...prove it. You cant. And frankly its pretty ridiculous.
    It actually makes perfect logical sense because it’s proof by negation which of course is logically valid. I am not talking about solipsism here, we can know things for certain; however, the only reason we can know things for certain is because God exists. I can prove “A” by demonstrating the impossibility of “Not A”. Unfortunately I am heading off to help coach at an athletic camp, so I will not be able to continue this discussion with you until Thursday. I will go into greater detail when I have more time to then. I am looking forward to continuing the conversation, it’s interesting! Thanks Tyler!


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  3. -23
    tylerdolphin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    It actually makes perfect logical sense because it’s proof by negation which of course is logically valid. I am not talking about solipsism here, we can know things for certain; however, the only reason we can know things for certain is because God exists. I can prove “A” by demonstrating the impossibility of “Not A”. Unfortunately I am heading off to help coach at an athletic camp, so I will not be able to continue this discussion with you until Thursday. I will go into greater detail when I have more time to then. I am looking forward to continuing the conversation, it’s interesting! Thanks Tyler!


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    Why cant we know anything for certain if there is no God? Because you say so? You have not even begun to explain that one.
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  4. -24
    rob19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    No it is quite true, in an atheistic universe knowledge would be completely impossible because none of the preconditions of intelligibility could be assumed to be true, thus making knowledge itself impossible. We know what we know because we live in a Universe governed by the God of the Bible. So even when a person questions His existence, the very act of questioning and seeking truth prove His existence.
    I don't even know where to begin with this one. The only precondition for intelligibility is a brain capable of intelligence. I don't know of any other "preconditions of intelligibility". God has nothing to do with the fact that I have a frontal cortex that understands that motion is governed by the Newtonian laws of physics; the only precondition of that were that I be birthed and that Newton figured it out first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf
    The proof for God’s existence is that without Him, it would be impossible to know or prove anything.
    This is fallacy. We can/have empirically proven lots of things. We don't however, have any empirical evidence of the God you claim.
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  5. -25
    Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Faith : b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
    You can debate the subject of faith and wast your seconds here on earth talking about what happens when we expire or...........you can take my approach and wait to see who's right when it happens leaving ample time to devote to something I can prove exists........beer!!
    ALTER2EGO -to- NY8123:
    You should remind yourself of that definition every time an atheist insists evolution is factual, because there isn't a shred of evidence to support the evolution myth.

    Meanwhile, let me inform you that the above definition of faith you gave is not the Bible's definition. Below is what the Bible says about faith. Keep your eyes on the words in bold print.


    "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)


    Let me break that down for you. The Bible presents almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophecies as evidence that it is the inspired word of YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh. It presents examples of how God dealt with people in the past as evidence of how he will deal with us. God stood by his promises in the Bible. This tells us that when he promises to do something for humanity in the future--and it's written in his inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible--we can be assured those promises will be kept because of God's past record of always keeping promises.


    The aforementioned amounts to an "assured expectation" and "evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.
    " Future promised blessing from God will certainly happen.
    Last edited by Alter2Ego; 08-07-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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  6. -26
    Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tylerdolphin View Post
    Well Im a soul thats headed for hell unless you can prove it, so I think its your moral obligation to prove this for me.
    Not quite, it’s my moral obligation to defend the faith, not to persuade you that God exists. That’s impossible apart from God changing your heart.

    How technical do you want to go with this? Keep it simple or pretty in depth?
    ALTER2EGO -to- STATLER WALDORF:
    Well said. Atheists see the same evidence for the existence of God as do those of us that are believers. They've chosen to dismiss the evidence and to go so far as to argue against the evidence for the existence of God. One cannot convince others of something when they've made up their minds to stubbornly ignore the evidence being presented to them. You know the old saying: "You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink."
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  7. -27
    NY8123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- ANY8123:
    You should remind yourself of that definition every time an atheist insists evolution is factual, because there isn't a shred of evidence to support the evolution myth.

    Meanwhile, let me inform you that the above definition of faith you gave is not the Bible's definition. Below is what the Bible says about faith. Keep your eyes on the words in bold print.


    "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)


    Let me break that down for you. The Bible presents almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophecies as evidence that it is the inspired word of YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh. It presents examples of how God dealt with people in the past as evidence of how he will deal with us. God stood by his promises in the Bible. This tells us that when he promises to do something for humanity in the future--and it's written in his inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible--we can be assured those promises will be kept because of God's past record of always keeping promises.


    The aforementioned amounts to an "assured expectation" and "evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.
    " Future promised blessing from God will certainly happen.
    I'm not sure where you came from your where you are going my friend but I can assure you of this, no one race, no one creed and no one religion has the answers to all the questions that are asked. To have such answers would only lead to more questions, those who don't want to question tend to have your religious definition of "faith" those who tend to question lean more toward the Merriam Webster version. Neither person can be "proved" right or wrong even if the evolutionists are right it doesn't discount a god or creator just based on the premise that god is an incomprehensible entity, infinitely large and at the same time infinitely small.

    Either way in death we will all have our "answers" one way or the other and the beauty of the debate is that everyone could actually be right.
    "I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally" ~ W.C. Fields

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  8. -28
    Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    I'm not sure where you came from your where you are going my friend but I can assure you of this, no one race, no one creed and no one religion has the answers to all the questions that are asked. To have such answers would only lead to more questions, those who don't want to question tend to have your religious definition of "faith" those who tend to question lean more toward the Merriam Webster version. Neither person can be "proved" right or wrong even if the evolutionists are right it doesn't discount a god or creator just based on the premise that god is an incomprehensible entity, infinitely large and at the same time infinitely small.
    ALTER2EGO -to- NY8123:
    Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH provides answers to many of our questions in his inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Although it's true that no human has answers to all the questions, we can get the correct answers to most of the questions in the Bible.



    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Either way in death we will all have our "answers" one way or the other and the beauty of the debate is that everyone could actually be right.
    ALTER2EGO -to- NY8123:
    You're kidding of course. Since when did the dead have answers? You might start by looking up the meaning of the word "dead" in your Merriam Webster dictionary. You will find that "dead" is the opposite of "alive." According to the Bible, the dead are unconscious and know absolutely nothing.
    Last edited by Alter2Ego; 08-07-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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  9. -29
    NY8123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- ANY8123:
    Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH provides answers to many of our questions in his inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Although it's true that no human has answers to all the questions, we can get the correct answers to most of the questions in the Bible.




    ALTER2EGO -to- ANY8123:
    You're kidding of course. Since when did the dead have answers? You might start by looking up the meaning of the word "dead" in your Merriam Webster dictionary. You will find that "dead" is the opposite of "alive." According to the Bible, the dead are unconscious and know absolutely nothing.
    This is according to your belief and faith of course. Death it is only a path to enlightenment a balance to life as we "know" it but on a grand level death could be anything from the ascension to heaven or hell or even the macro-evolution that you want proof of. Death could be energy to create new life, a well spring to perpetuate the endless vast cycle of life here on Earth or a portal to something so far out of the realm of comprehension that it is godly.

    Definition is created by humans, we as humans "know" little in the grand scheme of the cosmos.

    "Eclessiastes 9:4-6 " For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. "

    The script that you quote (albeit slightly wrong) in your text is highly debatable, it could be construed that in death you need not worry about mortal things anymore, like anger, fear, happiness, work, death, love etc...and that in death you are unlocked from the bounds of human definition as "we" know it under the sun.
    Last edited by NY8123; 08-07-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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  10. -30
    Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Death it is only a path to enlightenment a balance to life as we "know" it but on a grand level death could be anything from the ascension to heaven or hell or even the macro-evolution that you want proof of. Death could be energy to create new life, a well spring to perpetuate the endless vast cycle of life here on Earth or a portal to something so far out of the realm of comprehension that it is godly.
    ALTER2EGO -to- NY8123:
    God tells us in his inspired Word, the Bible, that death is the opposite of life. The terminology "could be" is nothing more than personal opinion aka speculations. But since that seems to work for you, go for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Definition is created by humans, we as humans "know" little in the grand scheme of the cosmos.
    ALTER2EGO -to- NY8123:
    To hear you tell it in your paragraph at the top of this post: "Death it is only a path to enlightenment a balance to life as we "know" it." In other words, you KNOW much more than the average human along that line, according to your statement about death being a path to enlightenment. You can stick with your personal speculations. I will stick with what the Bible says at Ecclesiastes 9:5.


    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    "Eclessiastes 9:4-6 " For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. "

    The script that you quote (albeit slightly wrong) in your text is highly debatable, it could be construed that in death you need not worry about mortal things anymore, like anger, fear, happiness, work, death, love etc...and that in death you are unlocked from the bounds of human definition as "we" know it under the sun.
    ALTER2EGO -to- NY8123:
    I don't recall quoting any scriptures dealing with death in my previous post.
    Last edited by Alter2Ego; 08-07-2012 at 09:18 PM.
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