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Thread: Congressman declares abortions never necessary to save womans life.

  1. -51
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    I think you are being willfully ignorant of the context in this thread just to make a point and stand your ground no matter how many facts are presented to refute your claims.

    Nope, you did not mean it as a compliment, it was a subtle insult intended to play to the crowd. Rather than actually addressing my points you’d rather claim that my position is somehow ignorant (whether you believe I am doing it on purpose is irrelevant), the fact you are insinuating that my position is ignorant is what is insulting. What facts are you referring to? The facts are totally on my side…

    FACT: Women rarely die from ruptured fallopian tubes (25-50 each year out of 100,000+ cases).
    FACT: Babies do not always die after developing in the fallopian tube and rupturing it (documented case by the BBC at King’s College)
    FACT: You don’t have knowledge of future events, I do not have knowledge of future events.

    Given these facts the only rational position is to allow the pregnancy to take its course, if the baby dies naturally we did all that we could, if the tube ruptures killing the baby we still have a greater than 99.95 percent chance of saving the mother, if the tube ruptures and the baby and mother both survive then awesome. If they both die, we still took the best route to allow them both to live given the situation. I think any parent that knew the actual facts would take my position, “You’re baby is probably going to die, but the only chance it has to live is if you take this action, granted there is less than a 1 in 2000 chance that you may die from taking this action but it’s the only chance we have of saving your baby.” Every parent would jump at the chance of saving their child!

    You're wasting your time. This guy is telling a legitimate doctor he knows less about medicine than he does. He is incapable of rational discourse. On top of that, he is hands down the biggest pathological liar I've ever come across in my life...

    You are so small time, so just because an MD says no baby has ever survived a fallopian tube pregnancy all of the sudden means that Ronan in the UK didn’t actually survive that pregnancy? It’s a conspiracy by the BBC to prove my point? The doctor was trying to argue a position that was verifiably false. I have never lied about anything on here; you’re still just emotionally scarred because I embarrassed you in front of everyone because you were claiming to be a PhD candidate but you didn’t know what the two biggest peer-reviewed journals in the world, NATURE and SCIENCE looked like. Not only that but you were trying to sell some story about how only universities have access to such journals, which was another verifiably false statement I also embarrassed you over. If I hurt your feelings I am sorry, but I just couldn’t let you get away with such a ridiculous song and dance. Get educated, get informed.
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  2. -52
    trojanma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post

    FACT: Women rarely die from ruptured fallopian tubes (25-50 each year out of 100,000+ cases).
    FACT: Babies do not always die after developing in the fallopian tube and rupturing it (documented case by the BBC at King’s College)
    FACT: You don’t have knowledge of future events, I do not have knowledge of future events.
    Statler your opinion on the matter is the perfect example of the danger of anecdotal evidence.

    Fact #1
    Obviously women rarely die from ectopic pregnancies, we have the full diagnostic force of modern medicine designed to protect the mother from an unnecessary death.
    The situations where women die are the ones when it is not caught in time and they are allowed to have complications. I don't even see how this is meant to be an argument supporting your point. It is actually supporting my point that our methods have proven very effective in stopping unnecessary mortality.

    Fact #2
    First off I never said that it never happens precisely for this reason.
    But you searched and searched and you found 1 case in the UK in 1992
    100k ectopic pregnancies per year in the US alone. Modern medical records have been kept for at least 40 years on the subject. So out of the millions of ectopic pregnancies that have been recorded you found one case. Not a series, not a cohort, ONE.

    So you would stake the life of a woman you love on one case?
    Yes mortality is low because we treat the patient by terminating the fetus either with medicine(Methotrexate or Surgery or spontaneous auto-abortion).

    This like all of medicine comes down to odds. At times the decision can be very difficult. This is not one of those cases.

    .00000001% miracle vs. a real and tangible chance of death if you willfully refuse treatment. (note that your statistics of 25-50 out of a 100k deaths is not applicable in your situation because those people have presumably not refused treatment)

    The only place where you can even come close to a realistic death rate for ectopic pregnancy for people refusing to treat it is the third world because those folks don't have the benefit of ultrasounds and what not.
    Speaking to what I am trying to say
    Ectopic pregnancy is a leading cause of pregnancy-related death in early pregnancy (3, 4). Fortunately, after the advent of transvaginal ultrasonography and beta subunit of hCG (beta-hCG) tests, the incidence rates of rupture of fallopian tubes and case-fatality rates declined (4). In developing countries, a majority of hospital-based studies have reported ectopic pregnancy case-fatality rates of around 1%–3%, 10 times higher than those reported in developed countries (5). Late diagnosis, leading in almost all cases to major complications and emergency surgical intervention, is the key factor accounting for such high fatality rates in women suffering from ectopic pregnancy in developing countries. However, transvaginal ultrasonography and beta-hCG tests are rarely available in public health institutions in developing countries. Hence, ectopic pregnancy continues to be a life-threatening and sometimes fatal condition, whose treatment frequently requires an emergency intervention often including salpingectomy.

    No one I mean no one of sound mind would take those odds that you are proposing.
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  3. -53
    TheWalrus's Avatar

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    Good post, trojanma. I had forgotten about this thread so thank you for posting that. I think our good buddy Statler has forgotten the notion of the exception that proves the rule.
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